ATC METAR

[datafox]

There are rumors in The United States that the FAA is about to propose that air traffic control facilities (tower controllers) augment ASOS (Automated Surface Observing System). Currently, the ASOS (automated weather station that produces METAR) is augmented by a contract weather observer at most Class "B" and "C" airspace airports.

Does anyone know of controllers at major airports throughout Europe that augment automated weather stations that produce METAR's? Or, are METAR's done by weather observers at Europe's largest airports (EGLL, EHAM, LFPG, etc.)?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Once upon a time there were professional forecasters and observers at manu major UK airports. Sadly this is no longer the case, the local met offices have been closed down through "cost-cutting" exercises. At Heathrow (and probably other major UK airports) the met observations are made by equipment supplemented by the work of Air Traffic Control staff. Completely crazy, but true!

[TheOddOne]

Well, HD, we've had SAMOS (Semi-Automatic Met Observation System) at LGW for several years now. Initially, when the Met Observers and their Stevenson screen went we feared a loss of accuracy and service but I think those fears have been unfounded. Our NATS unit do a great job making sure the system is operating correctly. There are 2 automated wx stations out on the airfield, co-located at the Glideslope aerial sites at each end of the main runway. Data is fed to a position in the Tower, where it is checked to ensure it reflects what can be observed from there, then sent to Exeter for onward transmission as the METAR and to inform the forecaster preparing the TAF. It also feeds automatically to the ATIS.

Generally, the key parameters seem pretty accurate. The most contentious are the cloud ceiling and the visibility, which will always vary slightly on the airfield when conditions are marginal with those experienced on the approach i.e. a 600' cloud on the airfield might well be either 800' or 400' 2 miles away, where it matters for our Northern runway operation.

As a 'customer' of the system, I've no complaints at LGW, but then again our NATS unit has always been 'can do'.

I do check with pilots occasionally to see what they expect of us in the way of Met info. When we're operating our main runway (99% of the time) with the CATIII up, they say 'so long as the IRVR is over 125 metres, who cares about the rest?' Well, they probably care about our crosswinds and might like to know about the air temperature, but you've got to see their point!

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[datafox]

I'm amazed that ATC does observations at major UK airports, or should I say monitors/augments automated weather stations. It appears this is what the FAA would like to do in The United States.

I can't speak for anywhere else in the world, but in The U.S. I've found most ATC people do a inferior job at augmenting the automated weather equipment compared to contract observers. At many towers, they tend to ignore the METAR. Even if system sensors fail, the METAR will go out incomplete/missing data.

Speaking from my flying experience only, it seems controllers in the U.S. don't care to much about METAR accuracy nor are they trained well to observe (although they do take a test on how to code). This is not intended to inflame as I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule and there are good ATC wx observers out there somewhere.

Why at EGLL does the METAR go "AUTO" for a few hours in the middle of the night?

Thanks for the input. Is ATC augmenting weather-robots true in E.U. countries as well?

[White Hart]

Quote "Why at EGLL does the METAR go "AUTO" for a few hours in the middle of the night?"

Because there's only two of us ATSAs working there; the shift is of 9 hours duration, and we are entitled to a relief break. This is taken at what is considered to be the quietest part of the shift, and the METAR goes 'auto' to accommodate this relief break. The 'auto' period never exceeds two hours in total.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

TheOddOne..... I think White Hart sums up the situation in a few words... They are trying to get people to do two jobs. I held a Met Observer Certificate many years ago and I know what the job involves - and it was damned difficult carrying out my primary ATC task and doing METARS, which frequently ended up late. IMHO it is ludicrous to expect very busy ATC staff at a busy unit to undertake two jobs even if the Met task is largely done by automatic equipment. They are ATC staff "by trade" so why lumber them with a Met job? Unfortunately, it's the name of the game nowadays....

[DirtyPierre]

In Oz, many years ago all ATCs were trained met. observers and we actually did the met. obs. at outstations.

These days, not so many outstations anymore. The few that remain have a met. station staff with observers and forecasters, and no met obs done by tower staff except for the ATIS. We must be backward in this country!

[datafox]

Is there a site online where I can view ICAO Annex 3? I've found sites that will sell me a copy, but I'm cheap and don't want to pay the excessive price.

[Hooligan Bill]

Once upon a time there were professional forecasters and observers at manu major UK airports.


It's not that long ago that I worked at a very minor UK airport that had both.:)

[TheOddOne]

Is there a site online where I can view ICAO Annex 3? I've found sites that will sell me a copy, but I'm cheap and don't want to pay the excessive price.

Basically, as I understand it, no. ICAO consider the revenue from selling paper copies of its publications as beneficial income. Personally, in this day and age of freely distributed safety information, I think it's a minor scandal that ICAO's entire output isn't available as a .pdf on the Web. Gosh, if the UKCAA can do it, anyone can!

Anyhow, there ARE forces being brought to bear on ICAO to change this state of affairs, so maybe in the future we'll see all Annexes available. Until then, unfortunately, you'll just have to fork out.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[mbcxharm]

http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/

Well, even with the face in it the link still works.

[vintage ATCO]

I have a Met Observers certificate issued in 1968! As for automatic or even semi-automatic stations . . . . . ha ha ha :)

[TheOddOne]

http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/
Well, even with the face in it the link still works.

That's great! Well done, the Danes!

I'll bookmark that one...

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[Tarq57]

Well done the Danes
I second that! At my unit, which is fairly busy much of the time, we don't have current ICAO docs. Too expensive/no need seen by management.
We also have been doing METARS/SPECI for about 15yr....ever since privatisation or thereabouts. During the day the FDA (who is appropriately licensed) does it, in the evenings/ overnight, the controller. I think the standard of MET provided is pretty good considering most of us would rather not be doing it.
That's the problem with "can do", you can end up getting used.

[datafox]

So it would appear that clouds are not reported above 5,000 feet anymore in U.K. METARs?

[SilentHandover]

Only clouds we can report over 5000' (or another criteria that evades me for now poss MSA) are CB's and TCU.

[Tarq57]

My understanding is that when coding a landing report (ATIS) cloud up to 5000 (or higher if significant eg:cb) is coded; when coding a METAR met reporting rules apply, and all cloud groups in the stepped range few-sct-bkn-ovc are reported, regardless of height. Are the Met. rules different in the UK then?

[TATC]

My understanding is that when coding a landing report (ATIS) cloud up to 5000 (or higher if significant eg:cb) is coded; when coding a METAR met reporting rules apply, and all cloud groups in the stepped range few-sct-bkn-ovc are reported, regardless of height. Are the Met. rules different in the UK then?

METARS no longer report cloud quantities at or above 5000'. If cloud is present at those levels AND none below 5000' the coding NSC (No significant Cloud) is used to indicate that there is some cloud about but not at levels significant to aircraft approaching to land and taking off. If there are CB or TCU present these are reported regardless of the level they are at. (NSC is not used if CAVOK is relevant.)

[Tarq57]

Thanks TATC.
If you ever come to NZ the cloud height is reported to the tropopause. Maybe beyond if the ozone keeps decreasing.

[Fox3snapshot]

We used to do the full Met observers course for the RAAF in the late 80's and early 90's, not sure now.

The Met officers at most of our bases had a wardrobe of poo brown corduroy trousers and purple velvet jackets as standard issue :eek:

When I went to New Zealand we also did a Met observers course when RNZAF Ohakea became a divert for United Airlines and Air New Zealand. The tower became a 24 hour operation for that purpose and the tower controller had to put out an hourly observation...difficult sometimes though when you are down at 14 SQN crew room party...:E

[atsatoo]

Here at Aberdeen, where we do not have Electronic strip production, everything bar fixed wing RPL info is input manually, that includes ALL of the oil related heli flight info from 3 busy chopper companies, a unique situation I believe.
We have just completed our Samos training for an O date of April 1st. We also start our night shifts on the same date, we too will have a 2 hour 'AUTO' break in the wee small hours.
Our met office will close then and our ATSA's will be doing the metars and Speci's, in addition to all their ATSA duties, including Tower, Approach, and Offshore sectors, servicing, EGPD approach, offshore radar, offshore procedural, EGPB radar, East Shetland Basin radar, and Anglia radar. A very busy Operations room and airfield.
The 'can do' attitude of the 3 ATSA's on duty is being stretched to the limit at peak times.
I can tell you catagorically that ANY cloud above 5000' will NOT be reported, even TCU and CB. That, apparantly is the Met rules! Of course we can 'massage' the observation if TCU or CB is around, ie, make the base 4900'.
Are aircrews interested in TCU and CB above 5000' ?
Not according to our MET trainers.:hmm: They seem to think that if the vis and present weather permit, we can report CAVOK even when TCU and CB is around, as long as its above 5000'. This scenario actually appeared in our MET exam theory papers.

[Bigears]

atsatoo,
The UK AIP, page 3,5,33, para 7.4 states
When there is no cloud below 5000 ft or below the highest minimum sector altitude (whichever is the greater) and there is no
towering cumulus or cumulonimbus, 'NSC' (no significant cloud) is reported. However, the amount, height of cloud base and cloud type
of towering cumulus or cumulonimbus shall be reported, irrespective of the cloud base height.
This what you're after?

[TATC]

Here at Aberdeen, where we do not have Electronic strip production, everything bar fixed wing RPL info is input manually, that includes ALL of the oil related heli flight info from 3 busy chopper companies, a unique situation I believe.
We have just completed our Samos training for an O date of April 1st. We also start our night shifts on the same date, we too will have a 2 hour 'AUTO' break in the wee small hours.
Our met office will close then and our ATSA's will be doing the metars and Speci's, in addition to all their ATSA duties, including Tower, Approach, and Offshore sectors, servicing, EGPD approach, offshore radar, offshore procedural, EGPB radar, East Shetland Basin radar, and Anglia radar. A very busy Operations room and airfield.
The 'can do' attitude of the 3 ATSA's on duty is being stretched to the limit at peak times.
I can tell you catagorically that ANY cloud above 5000' will NOT be reported, even TCU and CB. That, apparantly is the Met rules! Of course we can 'massage' the observation if TCU or CB is around, ie, make the base 4900'.
Are aircrews interested in TCU and CB above 5000' ?
Not according to our MET trainers.:hmm: They seem to think that if the vis and present weather permit, we can report CAVOK even when TCU and CB is around, as long as its above 5000'. This scenario actually appeared in our MET exam theory papers.

TCU and CB are reported at any level - think the met trainers at PD should get that clarified. as for CAVOK with CB and TCU present, thats rubbish.

[CAP493]

In the UK, military aerodromes continue to have human Met staff, at most major bases this includes forecasters. The best UK Met service is the Royal Navy because it's independant of the MoD (which 'owns' the UK Met Office), and its forecasters are also oceanographers, so their local forecasts are 99.9% accurate instead of the Met Office which seems to have great difficulty with the timing of weather events, ever since it abandoned its seaweed and pine cones, and bought a big computer. As for ATS staff undertaking Met observations (whether fully manual or supplementing SAMOS) all non-NATS ATS units in the UK undertake Met observations (whether 'official' or if by unqualified staff, 'unofficial') and have done so for around 40 years, whilst an increasing number of NATS ATC units are also now doing likewise, as a cost-saving exercise. So if you want to actually talk in person to a forecaster, don't waste time going to Heathrow, Manchester or Gatwick; nip down instead, to Middle Wallop...

:ouch:

[cleo]

ATSATOO
Your post begs the questions - 'Who set your Met assessment papers?' and 'Who assessed the assessor?'

[White Hart]

Cleo

there are many questions that beg to be asked about SAMOS !

And as to Assessor competency!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: At LL we had 4 mentors. One question would usually result in four different answers :uhoh:

Need I say more?

[atsatoo]

Yes Cleo, to say we were all a little confused is an understatement.
We have no idea who checks out the trainers. We had two, a nice chap called Mike and a guy called Darren.

The question referred to above lead to a heated discussion between one ATSA and the MET trainer. But the MET man won the day and the ATSA lost 4 marks. One of the watch managers took up the cause, and still the MET man stood his ground.

So, if you visit Aberdeen and theres some nasty clouds around, you'd better hope its all below 5000', cause we aint gonna report it otherwise!! This of course all based on our extensive MET expertise. About 10 - 16 hours of training and observing.


Thanks for the AIP reference, will check it out.

[throw a dyce]

How many of the units that have Samos have a dedicated Watch Manager in the VCR? Well at Aberdeen we don't.If an emergency happens we often need the Tower Atsa to assist,especially if GMC is closed.
There will be times,especially with some of the Crap wx,which the south of Englandshire will never see,when the operation here will get severely stretched.
Why? Because Nats wants to save bucks so that the Red Barron can get a bigger bonus.:mad:
The sickness rate will only go up,so our Atsa's will be working short staffed more than usual.Wonderful:}

[TATC]

How many of the units that have Samos have a dedicated Watch Manager in the VCR? Well at Aberdeen we don't.If an emergency happens we often need the Tower Atsa to assist,especially if GMC is closed.
There will be times,especially with some of the Crap wx,which the south of Englandshire will never see,when the operation here will get severely stretched.
Why? Because Nats wants to save bucks so that the Red Barron can get a bigger bonus.:mad:
The sickness rate will only go up,so our Atsa's will be working short staffed more than usual.Wonderful:}

At a guess I would say that most towers without a radar unit will not have a dedicated watch manager in the tower - so that makes it Edinburgh, Glasgow, Birmingham , Cardiff, Southampton and I am fairly sure most if not all of these use SAMOS equipment

[White Hart]

We had two, a nice chap called Mike and a guy called Darren.
The question referred to above lead to a heated discussion between one ATSA and the MET trainer. But the MET man won the day and the ATSA lost 4 marks. One of the watch managers took up the cause, and still the MET man stood his ground..

This is oh, so familiar!

Same guys, and probably the same argument that I had with Darren (?) on the final checkout. That time, I won the argument. Just as well, 'cos I would have failed the assessment by three marks had I not:hmm:

Without going over old ground, the issue of the SAMOS training package has been a real bone of contention with many ATSA2s. To say it was completely inadequate in all aspects is doing it no disservice at all.

The only reason SAMOS is now an ATSA task is because the Union thought it would save jobs, and therefore backed its introduction. I only wish they had backed our complaints and addressed our problems with SAMOS implementation with the same vigour.:hmm:

It was, and still is, total crap - from start to finish.

[atsatoo]

White Hart, your story does sound familiar.
One ATSA here failed by 2 marks, after having 4 marks deducted for the TCU at 5000' question. Not really surprising after the inadequate training provided, but the person involved got pretty upset by all acounts. A very experienced ATSA, based the answer on years of safety first ATC, rather than MET 'rules is rules'.

I can sympathise a little with the union's stance, Samos has kept some jobs, not in ATC of course, they have become MET staff, and restricted MET staff at that, we don't even have the honour of a full MET OBS cert.

A couple here have resigned from PCS, the union weren't prepared to accept that we might actually get too busy at times to carry out all of our 'ATC' duties if we are supposed to be 'watching the weather', and most of us WILL be going outside to assess the conditions and measure the hail etc etc.

We have a flight data management system that needs lots of work arounds to get it to give us the strips we want, and the oldest strip printers in NATS, yet PCS are not prepared to use this as a bargaining chip and get it sorted before Samos comes in. Oh, and we do all of the unit stats as well, which we took from the admin staff about 4 years ago, apparently thats a core ATSA task too!

Eddie Walker came up to Aberdeen to help 'convince us'. Our ex PCS rep told us that He said, and I qoute, Samos is crap, and thats why it needed human input.
Great

Still, money is King these days, and it seems to have been accepted everywhere else.
Bu**er the standards, lets cut the budget.
Roll on April 1st.

[cleo]

Has anyone considered submitting a CHIRP report if the concensus is that the training is inadequate and the assessment questionable? :confused:
I have a full met ticket and assessor's ticket - but since I have not used either to provide 10 obs in the past 90 days I'm no longer safe to provide observations or METARs. :mad:
The issue will not go away and will never be addressed - like most seemingly small concerns - until one day they all line up and the incident occurs.

[TATC]

ATSATOO

The definition of CAVOK i was taught at the college was that there had to be no TCU or CB at any level, also in recent times I have been told that TCU and CB must be reported irrespective of the level. That is what the ATSA's at my unit have been trained to do.

[Dizzee Rascal]

ATSATOO

The definition of CAVOK i was taught at the college was that there had to be no TCU or CB at any level, also in recent times I have been told that TCU and CB must be reported irrespective of the level. That is what the ATSA's at my unit have been trained to do.

Having just done my full obs certificate, I confirm this is what I was taught. Even the dinosaurs at my unit who all passed thier certificates years ago do this as well.

[White Hart]

Has anyone considered submitting a CHIRP report if the concensus is that the training is inadequate and the assessment questionable? :confused: ... The issue will not go away and will never be addressed - like most seemingly small concerns - until one day they all line up and the incident occurs.

Makes no difference to anybody if we file CHIRP reports, or maybe a report using the new STAR reporting system - if its an ATSA issue, nobody cares. Except the ATSAs :ugh:

We have a "get out of jail free" card in the form of a letter from the EGLL SAMOS Project Manager which exonerates us of all/every liability and responsibility in the event of an incident attributable to SAMOS, or the reporting thereof. (The issue of liability has also been previously discussed at length on pprune.)

We currently make it up as we go along with regards to LVPs. All these stupid phone calls to and from the VCR - "well, actually its 240ft, but, wait a mo - that cloud over there is at 290." What Boll*x! Its just easier to report BKN002 and let the Tower get on with it.


ATSATOO - your remarks about EW's comments echo exactly what was said here by the man himself when he, too, made an appearance. Also, our local PCS bods will only reiterate that the implementation of SAMOS saved ATSA jobs at Heathrow - which it probably did, especially in line with the NVCR/EFPS issues. This is the one and only saving grace as far as many of us are concerned. However, that should in no way excuse PCS or local Management from looking after our interests now that the deed is done. Unfortunately, this is just not happening.

And be warned about the next comment - our reporting competence is continually questioned by others. If this happens at PD, stamp on it quickly. A note was issued to LL ATCOs via the Tech Comm telling them not to put pressure on us if/when they disagree with our reporting - get the same done at PD.

Let me make this crystal clear - its not that the ATSAs don't want to do SAMOS - its just that we all feel that we have been very, very poorly prepared for the task.

We lurch from one problem to another, without backup or support from any quarter, and without resolution to even the simplest of issues. Had there been a proper, professional training course devised and offered, and full support given by NATS to see this project implemented correctly, then things could have been so much different.


Crap package, crap training, crap support - welcome to SAMOS. Good luck!:*

[cleo]

First of all may I make it clear that I am not employed by NATS. I worked at an airport where met obs are undertaken by ATSAs with full met certificates. To satisfy SRG requirements restricted certificates can only be used if there is full system redundancy - ie 2 SAMOS systems. If one fails the other will continue to provide the automated elements. My former employers found it cheaper to train ATSAs to full met certificate standard and not install the second system. When SAMOS was installed the price was a 15% reduction in ATSA staff. To be fair the SAMOS was so reliable that I do not recall any instances of system failure.
When CAP746 was introduced more paperwork and assessment became a fact of life. Perhaps not a bad thing as it ought to prove competency in observing and consistency in the quality and accuracy of METARs. This theory holds water IF the assessors are assessing to a national standard and not the old 'I'll sign you off if u sign me off' routine that used to be rife in many competency checking regimes.
What I am reading on this thread is that there are training and assessment concerns being expressed within NATS but no-one in management seems to be taking these concerns seriously because they are coming from the ATSAs.
Feel free to correct my observation :p

[chiglet]

At Manch, I was phoned by Met [Stockport] to ask why I was giving SKC[with NO cloud. I replied that that was the SAMOS reading...He "informed" me that NRC was the "cloud group" and had been for some time..[6 months or so]
Our "software" wasn't up to date....it had been [supposedly] corrected again.......
As an aside, the ATSA "observer" is in the Tower...the SAMOS kit is 3K away :rolleyes: ...soooo an Obs of "Tower" vis is 350M in snow... Met/SAMOS vis is 9999...IRVR >1500m
A Captain rang to ask "Why the Differentials"......Fortunately, he believed my "explination" :ok:
watp,iktch

[White Hart]

What I am reading on this thread is that there are training and assessment concerns being expressed within NATS but no-one in management seems to be taking these concerns seriously because they are coming from the ATSAs.

My comments refer solely to the situation at EGLL as I have witnessed firsthand. My concerns about this project, and especially the training and implementation issues, were first raised as early as November 2004, and should be on record as such. Then, as now, all concerns - both from myself and many others besides - have either been fobbed off, or simply ignored.

I have now given up bringing SAMOS operational/training issues to local attention. One can only bang one's head on a brick wall for so long....

[atsatoo]

I'd absolutely, catagorically second what White Hart said. It is the same here. We were the last ATS unit to recieve Samos, yet ALL of the MET books given to us were out of date. We did our CBT based on this info and it went uncorrected until MIKE arrived for the practical training.

Many of us have sore foreheads from the same brick wall, we are ALL concerned over our liability, and though management here have reassured us, we have nothing in writing (AFAIK).

Management basicall has PCS's full support to railroad this in, whatever the ATSA concerns maybe. It seems that nothing will change until something goes wrong.

Our Atco's have been told not to try pressurising the ATSA's, but I feel many of them may well have a better appreciation of the weather than I do/will. They are looking out of the window. I can assure you that during the week, I will not have time to watch the weather, its simply too busy!!

I have no idea if we have a second Samos as back up, we certainly don't have any fully qualified MET observers valid as a TWR ATSA!!!

As for Chirp reports, read what White Hart says again, same here. We have all filled in so many questionaires, staff surveys, submitted our '5 key concerns' and nothing, ever seems to be done, save for a couple of new jobs for some ex private sector whizz kids to check out the surveys.

Thanks for the good wishes, appreciated.

[datafox]

It certainly seems like from what has been said The UK has taken a step backward. Hopefully the US FAA will learn from this and not institute a similiar program here and terminate all the remaining weather observers.

Like has been said previously, "progress" will continue until something goes horribly wrong. That typically seems to be the FAA's 10-yr plan.

[TATC]

I'd absolutely, catagorically second what White Hart said. It is the same here. We were the last ATS unit to recieve Samos, yet ALL of the MET books given to us were out of date. We did our CBT based on this info and it went uncorrected until MIKE arrived for the practical training.
Many of us have sore foreheads from the same brick wall, we are ALL concerned over our liability, and though management here have reassured us, we have nothing in writing (AFAIK).


From what has been said about the reporting of CAVOK and TCU and CB that things were not corrected as you state that you have been told that TCU and CB are not to be reported if above 5000' and you can report CAVOK even if TCU and CB are present. This is NOT correct

[Data Dad]

ATSATOO - Check your pm's

TATC - Agree with you - either MET Trainers are wrong (which is a shocking state of affairs if true) OR the AIP and MATS Pt 1 are wrong.

MATS Part 1, Section 7, Chapter 1, Page 3 states:

"Towering cumulus and cumulonimbus will always be specified,
whatever the amount and height"

This and one or two other aspects of the quality/quantity of the training given to the ATSA's leaves me as an ATCO less than happy. Our tower Assistants have always been an essential part of the operation and have on many occasions delivered superb support to myself and all the other ATCO's when things get pear shaped. This new tasking is going to largely remove their ability to do that in future, which cannot be a good thing from anybody's perspective. Have the ATCO's been kept "in the loop" as this project was developed ? Stupid question really!

DD

[TATC]

Personally I'd go along with the met trainers being wrong, simply because the trainers at my unit and all the ATSA's do what the MATS part 1 and AIP says. Also on occasions when TCU or CB are reported and all else points to CAVOK the MET Orrifice doesnt get its knickers in a twist.

[White Hart]

Quote from ATSATOO "I can assure you that during the week, I will not have time to watch the weather, its simply too busy!!"

we said that down here as well, and were told in no uncertain terms that SAMOS takes priority over everything - without exception! If there's only one ATC ATSA2 in the building, then he/she will be doing SAMOS as a first priority. As SAMOS runs on a basis of "continuous observation/monitoring", everything else will be restricted or even cease until more/enough ATSAs are back in the workplace. The worse the weather - the more the dependancy on SAMOS reporting. And you get far worse weather up there than we do - and more often! LVPs can be real fun :rolleyes: - as you will see :ok:

If you don't do the SAMOS, and send out the reports on time, every time, then you will be heading for a Unit a*se kicking from the Met Office, who, incidentally, will be monitoring your every move for the first few weeks.
"Its simply too busy" doesn't count for jack sh*t, I'm afraid. We've tried it - failed.

[White Hart]

Atsatoo

how's going up there with your new toy?

[atsatoo]

Snow showers on week day one. Superb!
Chaos ensued, speci's every two mins. An epic day by all acounts.

The S.I. only appeared a few days before O date and included many instructions we had never heard of before. Its been a shambles, we've all had to have crash courses on the additional duties we are now required to perform. Parity checks, obtaining trends, all the weather info ie tafs, metars and synoptics which we have to get via t'internet with no broadband, and no computer in the tower. We were simply not told about any of these things at all.

Honestly, this has been a shocking way to introduce such a big change in procedures.

Management should be utterly embarassed by the way they have treated the ATSA's here, you should see their contingency fallback for if the tower ATSA goes under. the Offshore ATSA is to run upsters to help out, meanwhile the app ATSA goes under while trying to cover offshore too, or the half dozen offshore controllers go under trying to get strips and pass estimates etc etc with no ATSA.

Yeah, its going great..............!!:eek:

Atsatoo

[atsatoo]

One sad thing about all this, I mean really sad not just a bunch of ATSA's whinging;

The MET office guys just got up and left.:sad:

No hearty farewell and thanks for all your help over the years from the management. No piss up, no handshake, no cards, no gifts. No nothing AFAIK.

One of them (Andy) had been here for eons, tried to be an assistant once or twice I believe.

The engineers are in there, ripping the place to bits.
No one seems to give a toss.

Bye guys, enjoy Exeter, certainly warmer!!
I bet they don't remember us with any warmth tho eh!

too.

[White Hart]

I can fully understand and sympathise with the situation you now find yourselves in. Be warned - nothing will change for the better. You will be expected to completely and totally cover up any and all shortfalls, errors, lack of info/training/knowledge scenarios and anything else you care to mention (irrespective of staffing issues), whilst those that delivered the crap training, plus those that were responsible for its provision, will all be now self-congratulating each other on a job well done - well done, my fu**ing ar*e! :mad::mad:

BTW - do you have a valid in-house Met Assessor who can assist with problem solving and on-site continuous training?

[atsatoo]

Mike the nice MET man is here for this week 7am till 2pm daily.
As for on going training, well I think that would be a no. We will however be continually assesed by our glorious ATSA3. The 3 is a qualified MET observer, who works part time, and doesn't do any shift work, so won't see any nights at all. I'm not sure how you tell what clouds are what, and how much there is at night at all, and one things for certain, the 3 aint gonna be around to help.
The system stinks to high heaven. Talk about being pushed in at the deep end!!!
Eddie Walker new what he was talking about when he said it was rubbish though, recent snow showers went through giving us 500 mts vis, obviously in CB's.
SAMOS said CAVOK.
Unbelievable..!!
And you're undoubtedly correct, I can see our two managers getting bonuses and/or choice postings etc etc for their sterling efforts in cutting the budget here at Aberdeen. We, as is usual here, will get a tray of Danish pastries and two bags of doughnuts by way of thanks, if we're lucky.:ok:
Meanwhile, by the methods employed and the manner in which this was implemented, they've succeeded in pushing morale down to rock bottom, upsetting every ATSA on the unit, and most ATCO's too, losing years of MET expertise, and in my case (and I'm not alone) losing any good will I might have had left for those extra duties, those "can you help" moments.
No I bloody won't.
Hey, thanks for asking by the way, I just wish you could hold out a slight glimmer of hope, but it seems not.
Atsatoo

[chiglet]

Been doing SAMOS for well over 12 months now at Manch. It has [supposedly] been updated/corrected/mended a couple of times. It does NOT like the pre dawn damp.......you can see for chuffin' miles.....and SAMOS is giving 200m :ok:
Yep, snow showers...CAVOK, then 30 mins later 1000m -RASH NSC ['cos it's a static CBR:{ We are lucky [so far] 'cos we still have 2 ATSAs on Nights and 2 plus relief during the Day. Our "assessor" is an in house ATSA11 who had a Full Met Cert at another Station
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[atsatoo]

I hear ya!

Its all new to us and I guess we'll just get on with it and accept the shortcomings (both ours, and its) and make the best of it. As we always seem to do.

I'm just tired of being expected to do a decent, safe job working with rubbish kit, both Samos and our FDMS are pretty poor tools really considering what they're expected to do in the supposedly 'safety first' times we live in.

It would be refreshing to hear someone being honest and saying what we all know deep down; its safety first, as long as its cheap!

Rumour has it we'll be cleaning and driving soon too!! There's no end to what we can be made to do.
Core ATSA tasks. Apparently.

atsatoo

[White Hart]

atsatoo - what you have written is almost exactly what has transpired at Heathrow - except we didn't get any Danish pastries! :*

You're spot on about EW. The one saving grace is that, with PCS's help, SAMOS introduction has secured some ATSA jobs at various locations for a bit longer - but its a real double edged sword. This is certainly a step in the wrong direction when it comes down to service provision, but without it, we'd be even further up sh*t creek than we already are. :ugh:

not sure what the answer is, except maybe to pursue those that were responsible for provision of the training (hah!) and ensure that we get any/all support that we deem necessary. If we do this, but don't receive visible support (as would seem to be the case down here at present), then when it all goes to the wall they won't be able to level the blame at us, will they?

but you can bet your ar*e they'll try!

BTW - I won't be doing any more chasing myself - done enough already - a complete and total waste of time and effort. I think that there are others on the Station who hold similar views - maybe they'll have better luck than I did.