NCL-MAN Route?

[nclbase]

Was there not some talk some time ago about a NCL-MAN route? I am sure I read in a local newspaper that a carrier was looking at this but I havent seen anything else.

Any ideas?

[jswings]

I have never heard of this idea but If it did go through contenders to me would be Eastern Airways or some other regional operator. Thanks for bringing this comment to light NCLBASE. Very intresting news!:ok:

[pwalhx]

I think in the various rumours that were spread about Easyjet and manchester, a Manchester -Newcastle route was mentioned.

[nclbase]

I think a NCL-MAN route would be great for the North East - I know many people from the region travel from MAN to long haul destinations and have to either drive or rely upon the rail.

Lets keep fingers crossed!

[EGBE0523]

Many moons ago Danair (DA) operated BHX - MAN - NCL with HS.748 equipment.

[U R NumberOne]

And I think it was Gill Air's first scheduled route back in 1987(ish). Aahhhh...Gill Air...:{

[nclbase]

Gill Air...that brings back memories!

[HON 1R]

I think in the various rumours that were spread about Easyjet and manchester, a Manchester -Newcastle route was mentioned.
If I got £1 everytime the rumour about Easyjet starting at MAN came up I'd be damn rich by now :}

[chiglet]

EGBE0523,
Danair did NCL-MAN-BOH-BHX-MAN-NCL in the morning, and reverse dirction in the evening....and it was a Nord262. It used to shut down the left engine to let the pax[dis]embark, fire it up and away. Turn round less than 5 mins
[don't tell Ryanair :ok: ]
For non-IATA peeps the route was...EGNT-EGCC-EGHH-EGBB-EGNT
And I think CWL/EGFF featured on these rotations....
watp,iktch

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

It's under 2 1/2 hours drive from Manchester to Newcastle, and approx the same on the train.

Doesn't really make sense to fly unless the fares are competitive with other transport modes and door to door times are quicker. Flight time must be about 20-25 mins in a jet a/c, subject to routing, but the "check-in" to "out of the airport door" times must be similar to car/train times.
Don't know enough about potential pax loads on the route, but I'd certainly use it if the price was right.

[cloudscarer]

the trouble with man is that you can spend half an hour getting in and taxing arround when its busy..smae with BHX but its only 2 and a half hours by car fm ncl..the train is about the same and when you add up the time to travel to the apt check in wt for your flt , fly to man I bet you dont save much time over the drive.

[trident3]

Gill Airways certainly did have at least a twice business-daily service MAN/NCL/MAN using Shorts 330/360 aircraft and NEAS (now Swissport) was the handling company in NCL receiving them.
.
The route economics was similiar to any short-haul private company, at that was peak demand from businessmen early into NCL or MAN and later back who may or may not turn up and usually had fully flexible refundable cpns
.
European Airways(L8) co-operated on this route for a small time trying out the market NCL/MAN/and onwards to France but didn't last long as not easy to market a J31 16 SEATER with payload limited sectors and a strategy that seemed to change daily in the marketing of this route.
.
Landing and handling fees at both NCL and MAN ate any profit margin very quickly so it needs a HS146 reasonably fully loaded with no refundable tkts to get the revenue stream attractive to attempt to market again.
.
Both NCL/MAN and NCL/SOU suffered from PAYLOAD whether it be a S330/360 or J31 and that is because it was very limited on ZFW/TOW/RLW for load control planning which often left genuine full fare commuter businessmen behind (particularly NCL/SOU) which became an early version of a codeshare between Gill Airways (9C)and European Airways (L8).
.
(For info..European Airways started life in NCL as(HY) which was the code of the financial arm of Uzbekistan Airways and the aircraft was leased from Maersk in BHX I recall)

PROBLEMS WITH NCL/MAN/NCL and NCL/SOU/NCL were

1/Mostly male passengers commuting
NORTH/SOUTH
NORTHEAST/NORTHWEST
.
2/Reasonable fuel and diversion fuel uplift required over Pennines due not Cat 3b !!

3/Baggage (that dreaded word that Flybe/Ryanair/easyJet don't want to hear)
.
The competition on NCL/MAN is the roadways 2.5 hrs NCL/MAN
A69 to Carlisle
M6 to Knutsford for the airport or earlier turn to city centre
THEN any combination to get through the jams to MAN
or
A1 5 MILES from NCL A/P and turn onto M62/3 over Pennines.
.
Train services of any speed were discounted as genuine competition.
.
I hope this helps those with fond memories of these routes and also any airline that may wish to evaluate rekindling the sectors but you will need deep pockets or good start-up marketing discounts with the airport authorities in both NCL and MAN plus ultra-cheap ground handling if you are to make a commercial viability success of this route against competition of the roads.

Maybe the answer is easyBus MAN/NCL/MAN !!!!!!
.

[CentreFix25]

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0307987&WxsIERv=Qr%20Univyynaq%20Pnanqn%20QUP-6-310%20Gjva%20Bggre&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=Zrgebcbyvgna%20Nvejnlf%20%28Qna-Nve%20Yvax%20Pvgl%29&QtODMg=Arjpnfgyr%20-%20Jbbyfvatgba%20%28APY%20%2F%20RTAG%29&ERDLTkt=HX%20-%20Ratynaq&ktODMp=Frcgrzore%207%2C%201982&BP=0&WNEb25u=Qrerx%20Srethfba&xsIERvdWdsY=T-ORYF&MgTUQtODMgKE=&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=444&NEb25uZWxs=2003-01-05%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=530&static=yes&width=1024&height=629&sok=&photo_nr=3&prev_id=0413348&next_id=NEXTID&size=L
Remember Metropolitan Airways? If I remember right they flew Manchester-Birmingham-Bournemouth on Mon,Wed & Fri and Manchester-(Bristol or Carfiff)-Bournemouth on Tue and Thu. Showing my age now!

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

But can you remember the Nord 262 that Dan Air used on their link city services back in early 70`s, it was so noisy
when it was on the ground

G-I-B

[CentreFix25]

I can't, you must be older than me or have a better memory! My earliest memories of the Toon airport are BA Tridents to LHR and BA Vicounts to Belfast and Dublin.

[WHBM]

But can you remember the Nord 262 that Dan Air used on their link city services back in early 70`s
Alas I can remember the Dan-Air DC3s used on Bristol - Cardiff - Liverpool/Manchester - Teesside - Newcastle that were an even earlier incarnation of this.

For business travellers the difficulty with such a route is low frequency. Two flights a day ends up cutting out a lot of potential who just can't fit into the schedule. There are the "going for a meeting" people, where 10.30 to 15.30 is wanted, maybe even that's a bit long, and there's the "doing a chargeable day" people, where 09.00 to 17.30 is required at the office being visited. The train generally is able to offer both options, but car is completely flexible.

And with just one homeward flight you can't have flexibility in your day. If the meeting runs on you can be stuffed. Even though you may never have actually transferred to the last departure of the day, it's nice to know it's there. Your car will always wait for you.

[fl dutchman]

Alas I can remember the Dan-Air DC3s used on Bristol - Cardiff - Liverpool/Manchester - Teesside - Newcastle that were an even earlier incarnation of this.
For business travellers the difficulty with such a route is low frequency. Two flights a day ends up cutting out a lot of potential who just can't fit into the schedule. There are the "going for a meeting" people, where 10.30 to 15.30 is wanted, maybe even that's a bit long, and there's the "doing a chargeable day" people, where 09.00 to 17.30 is required at the office being visited. The train generally is able to offer both options, but car is completely flexible.
And with just one homeward flight you can't have flexibility in your day. If the meeting runs on you can be stuffed. Even though you may never have actually transferred to the last departure of the day, it's nice to know it's there. Your car will always wait for you.
Dont forget the Airspeed Ambassadors (Elizabethans) also used on this and other DA and B. K. S. routes.
Dont think the Man - Ncl would work unless it was high frequency and very low cost. Wont happen!.

[The SSK]

Dan-Air's milk run used to be flown by Doves in the early-mid 1960s, and the routings seemed to vary from one season to the next. Sometimes MAN was included, sometimes LPL. Before BOH was added on the end they finished in either BRS or CWL.
I remember when the Doves were withdrawn, the two of them putting on an amazing impromptu display, beating up the airfield with some crazy flying.
There was also Cunard Eagle Sunday flight MAN-NCL-BGO (Bergen) with a DC6, at that time the biggest aircraft ever to visit NCL. Don't know if it carried local traffic MAN-NCL though.
Anyway, in those days it took half a day to do the journey either by road or by rail.

[WHBM]

Dont forget the Airspeed Ambassadors (Elizabethans) also used on this and other DA and B. K. S. routes.
Don't think Dan-Air used Ambassadors on this route - too large. But they did use them on a Liverpool - Amsterdam daily schedule for some years. They certainly picked up an extraordinary selection of routes.

When the Ambassador fired up its engines at Liverpool in the morning the exhaust smoke was probably visible from Manchester tower !

I remember when the Doves were withdrawn, the two of them putting on an amazing impromptu display, beating up the airfield with some crazy flying.Hopefully not with the pax on board :uhoh:

[fl dutchman]

Don't think Dan-Air used Ambassadors on this route - too large. But they did use them on a Liverpool - Amsterdam daily schedule for some years. They certainly picked up an extraordinary selection of routes.
When the Ambassador fired up its engines at Liverpool in the morning the exhaust smoke was probably visible from Manchester tower !
Hopefully not with the pax on board :uhoh:
They were certainly used on this route. I have flown on that aircraft type Newcastle to liverpool many times via Teeside, it must have been early sixties and sometimes it was a DC3. On many occasions there was only 2 or 3 pax on board, outnumbering the crew. So yes they were much to big. The smoke on start up was quite alarming for some people as it almost engulfed the whole aircraft, but it soon cleared after the initial warm up. I think the Nord 262 was brought in when the Elizabethans retired.

[CentreFix25]

I feel a whole lot younger now, cheers!

[The SSK]

OK here’s the full Newcastle schedule for Summer 1962.
First the Dan-Air milk run:
DA401 NCL-LPL-CWL-BRS 3x per week
DA403 NCL-LPL-CWL-BRS 2x
DA405 NCL-LPL-BRS-CWL 1x
DA407 DND-NCL-LPL-CWL-BRS 1x
DA411 DND-NCL-LPL-CWL 2x
All with DC3s
Dundee airport was ‘HMS Condor, Arbroath’
The Cunard Eagle weekly (Sunday) DC6 rotation MAN-NCL-BGO did carry local traffic NCL-MAN, fare was £2.5s one way and £4 return. Published block time was 50 minutes
Other services from NCL:
Amsterdam Silver City 6pw DC3 2pw Viscount (??)
Basle BKS 1pw Ambassador
Birmingham Executive AT 4pw Heron, 2 > Bournemouth, 1 > Sandown
Blackpool Silver City 5pw DC3
Dublin BKS 5pw Ambassador 4pw Viscount (??)
Dusseldorf Silver City 5pw DC3 2pw Viscount
Isle of Man Silver City 13pw DC3
Jersey BKS 7pw Ambassador
Leeds Silver City 1pw DC3
LHR BKS 4pd (no Sat/Sun) Ambassador
Newquay Starways 1pw DC3
Ostend BKS 2pw Ambassador
I don’t believe the Viscounts, I don’t think Silver City ever used them and BKS didn’t get them until much later.

[Jamesair]

Really interesting list of destinations:

Places like Blackpool, Dundee, Newquay, Isle of Wight, Basle and Ostend warranted air service from Newcastle.

None of these places are currently served 44 years on.

[nclbase]

Its such a shame many of these destinations arent offered anymore - it just shows how the industry has continued to change.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

I don’t believe the Viscounts, I don’t think Silver City ever used them and BKS didn’t get them until much later.

I have a feeling that Silver City did operate a Viscount or two in the 1960s, not sure exactly when - I think it/they may have ended up with British United. Yes, to BKS - their first Viscount appeared in 1966.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

I have a feeling that Silver City did operate a Viscount or two in the 1960s, not sure exactly when - I think it/they may have ended up with British United. Yes, to BKS - their first Viscount appeared in 1966.

I just noticed that BKS leased up to three Viscounts for less than a year around 1961 (G-ARBY/RER/RGR). The latter two were also with Silver City in 1961/62-ish.