Reading back when changing frequency

[jtor]

Controllers: What do you think when a pilot doesn't read back correctly especially when changing frequency? Do you want to get a proper read back or is it enough to say just "bye".

Do you accept the first one at all, do you just prefer the second one or is it what ever:

1.
Controller: "Scandinavian 1912 contact Stockholm on 118.2."
SAS1912: "Hej då (bye)."


2.
Controller: "Scandinavian 1912 contact Stockholm on 118.2."
SAS1912: "118.2, Scandinavian 1912. Hej då."

[ukatco_535]

It annoys the pants off me if an a/c just says 'bye' or 'Hej då'.

We need the callsign and frequency to confirm the correct A/C has gone to the correct frequency.

For a pilot to answer in any other manner is totally unprofessional.

I am sure my colleagues will back me up here by agreeing that there is hardly a day goes by when everyone of us has to correct at least one incorrect frequency readback, and hardly a week goes by without an A/C taking the frequency change intended for another A/C.

As to what I think when it happens? The same as what I think when an A/C departs an airfield and does not give me his callsign, SID, level passing, and level climbing to - I think 'idiot' then have to waste valuable RT time getting the information.

It seems more and more pilots get airborne and all they say is "London, XYZ123" (thats if they get the London bit correct - a huge assumption).

It's not difficult, and it makes me also think that if only the public knew how unprofessional some pilots are. Fortunately, the good ones still outnumber the bad, but the gap is closing.

[millerman]

Ukatco_535 covered most of it and I agree completely.
There is also the case that we can't correct the pilot if s/he gets it wrong!! Then they either come back to you a couple of minutes later (usually stepping on someone else) which you don't need when you are busy or they get lost and that can lead to all sorts of things such as interceptions :eek:
There is no substitute for professionalism!!

[vintage ATCO]

Wot ukatco says. :rolleyes:

Had somebody or other call me on Luton Ground today, passing FL330! "Pushback approved!" :}

[alexban]

ukatco_535 :
..lol,well next time I'll say 'London XYZ123....eh..you too! ' considering you think harsh words on me not giving you the passing altitude,or the cleared level ,cause maybe I'm too busy scaning the instruments,monitoring the PF (sometimes a low hr FO),using wx radar,cleaning airplane config,monitoring bank,ROC,changing radio freq,waiting for radio space,.....
I know what you're talking about,we can verify the correct id if I give you the passing alt,etc...the SID I guess it's known to you,also the cleared level ..the same almost all the time in London...stand corrected if I'm wrong...
I usually give the info's you're saying ,but sometimes it's really out of my mind..sorry.....U should fly with us out of LHR sometimes..
And ,by the way,I've heard for so many times the pilots reading back an incorrect freq,without ATC correcting them,just saying bye...so,let's talk about professionals...
Due to the closing gap you're talking about I suggest you travel by train.It will keep you health and safe,no stress....;)
Brgds....

[Scott Voigt]

It's annoying on this side of the pond too... At the very least use your full call sign (not just numbers), and a freq...

regards

Scott:{

[Widger]

It is very important to read back the frequency. especially in these days of hightened alert. If you read it back wrong and it is not corrected, you may well go to the wrong frequency. The next thing you will find is an F16/F3/F15/Mirage (delete as appropriate) on your wing demanding that you divert. I am sure "company" will be very pleased with that!

[ukatco_535]

Alexban

I know what the cockpit environment is like, I flew for the military a long time in a previous career. I still managed to nav, fight the aircraft and push out and receive encoded tactical messages whilst doing it. Often low level, often at night, often over the sea with no real horizon, almost always on minimum fuel, with a moving airfield with a fair bit of radar and radio silence procedures thrown in.

Never always got it correct by a long way, but would not use 'doing my job' (scanning instrument and post take offs etc) as an excuse. Thats why you guys get paid so much.

A/C departing on a SID are separated from others - if you are too busy, wait a minute then transmit. The odd mistake is understandable and forgiveable - getting airborne with just a callsign is slack.

I know what you're talking about,we can verify the correct id if I give you the passing alt,etc...the SID I guess it's known to you,also the cleared level ..the same almost all the time in London...

The book says exactly what you are supposed to tell us. We need to check that you are climbing to the correct altitude - it is almost always the same for each a SID, but we may have capped a level due to some reason - we need to check tower has given you that cap. We often get people calling climbing to the wrong level - every day in fact. With LHR it's different, it's always 6000' unless we have capped it.

I would also like to think that when you give the call you are also monitoring the instruments - you check the altimeter when or just before you give level passing, you check the FMS when or just before you give level climbing to (this is basic airmanship and is a good way of checking that everything is going as it should in the cockpit).


And ,by the way,I've heard for so many times the pilots reading back an incorrect freq,without ATC correcting them,just saying bye...so,let's talk about professionals...

It's not always easy to pick up a wrong readback - as I said above, mistakes happen; on both sides of the mic. We cannot pick up a wrong readback if it is not given in the first place.

As for so,let's talk about professionals we won't even begin to get into the number of level busts that are prevented due to picking up wrong readback, or that happen anyways despite correct readback but then not transferring that across to the height bug in the cockpit.

We won't talk about A/C climbing to FL on the QNH and causing TCAS events.

We will accept that everyone makes mistakes however professional. These can be prevented in a lot of instances, by correct radio procedures and cross checking in the cockpit or for ATCOs cross checking what we tell you , with our radar display and our flight strips.


I usually give the info's you're saying ,but sometimes it's really out of my mind..sorry.....

As I said, the majority are good, and you have indicated that you will give us what we need the majority of the time - thats all we ask for.

What I am saying, and again I know I will be backed up here, is that it seems that more and more pilots are getting airborne with just a callsign or "London XYZ123 hello"

Unfortunately and hopefully without it being taken the wrong way, it is generally non UK pilots. Even the 'Worlds Favourite Airline' seems to be getting worse - whilst the number of non British pilots flying for them seems to be on the increase.

I will reciprocate your offer; come to a UK unit and listen in, your company will have contact numbers, I can gaurantee that you will witness exactly what I am on about.

Finally!!

Instead of having a them and us attitude regarding professionalism, why not just admit that improvements could be made on both sides? I merely answered the topic - you jumped down my throat because of a perceived slur on pilots abilities.

[YourFriendlyATCO!]

Ha ha, another good thread for pilot/ATCO relations!!! Ha ha.

With mode-s coming in, we can see what levels the pilots have selected, so it's becoming less of a problem regarding level busts. First calls with all the information is great, but i also like the fact that when i have a busy frequency the majority of pilots i work with are switched on enough to use their common sense and only report their callsign. Makes a busy frequency a little busy on my sector anyway!

I can't fault the professionalism of 99% of the pilots i work with. Hope they can say the same about us!!! ha ha

[ukatco_535]

Your Friendly ATCO

I appreciate what you are saying, and once you have Mode S at Swanwick, you have a pretty valid point about callsign only when you are busy. You do not usually need to validate Mode C etc.

In the TMA however - where we do have Mode S, the minimum we need is callsign, level passing and level climbing to.

Not too bothered about the SID designators, but the level passing is needed to validate Mode C so you chaps don't have to, the level climbing is needed because even with Mode S we cannot be sure, as some a/c which are flying SIDS which are step climbed, often show the final SID altitude.

We need to know that the pilot is stopping off at the correct stepped altitude!!

If the frequency is too busy that a pilot feels he cannot give us that info, I would rather he did not call at all. We know he is there, we will get back to them when we can. I often even in February have initiated calls to pilots who did not get in on frequency.

Callsign only, in the TMA for departures, causes more RT congestion than either the correct call or nothing at all.

As for Mode S - it's all very well being able to check the dialled in level, but quite often you are dealing with other A/C and cannot wait and laboriously check each selected level - you might have to go back after a couple of minutes ot do it.

[PhoenixRising]

A related question, if I may...

When checking in on a new enroute frequency (this happens regularly in LACC sectors) and the ATC response is "Fastair 882, London, Roger". What is the correct pilot response? CAP413 does not cover this particular case. Personally I don't make any further transmission or acknowledgement (via mike clicks or otherwise).

[YourFriendlyATCO!]

ukatco_535

Good points. I guess every sector is different. Hopefully we'll get mode-s soon down here!


PhoenixRising

I wouldn't expect any other acknowledgement after that from you. Unless you had a request or something that is.

[PhoenixRising]

PhoenixRising

I wouldn't expect any other acknowledgement after that from you. Unless you had a request or something that is.

Thanks, thought so. Nice to have it confirmed from your side!

[YourFriendlyATCO!]

No worries!!! Anytime