Question from an Inexperienced F/O

[AERO_STUDENT]

Hello All,

Please, first of all, ignore my username, it's from a past life. I have a situation I found myself in over the last few days and I require some advice from yourselves.

I'm a low-hours F/O with a major UK jet airline, been here less than a year. This is my first job. I've done my first 6-month sim with no major problems and have, to the best of my knowledge, no major negative feedback from other guys I've flown with on line. In other words, I'm no axe-murderer.

Recently I was sent to another base for a few days flying (as my company has the tendancy to do). Normally I enjoy these trips as it's a good chance to fly with different people etc etc.

Anyway, I flew on this trip with a Captain from this base, and I had the worst day I've had on line to date. It's quite hard to sum up quite why it was such a dreadful day but I feel the chap had basically no CRM skills at all. Every comment from my side of the cockpit was put down, dismissed instantly, discarded as wrong. I tried over the four sectors to approach matters differently, and every way I tried met the same response.
As an example;
Captain (looking at ND); Oh, look, TCAS traffic's nearby.
Me (as conversation...); Yeah' about five miles at 3 o'clock
Captain (shortly); No, that's six miles.

Mulitply the above conversation by a 4 sector 11 hour day and try and imagine how I felt by the end of the day. I tried conciously hard not to let the increasing breakdown between us not affect the flying of the aeroplane but by sector 4 I had had enough and the only dialogue in the cockpit from my side was Standard Calls, I simply refused to say anything else to be immediately shot down in flames again.

The Captain refused to listen to my briefings for T/O, SID and Approach and landing. Again by sector 4 I had enough of him doing other stuff whilst I was briefing and told him that "The briefings are for my benefit as much as yours, I don't fly here regularly and I'd really appreciate it if you gave me the courtesy of listening". His reply? "Oh, you actually want me to get the plates out and go through this with you?"

Whilst I was PF, the Captain routinely 'tinkered' with the FMC, without any asking by me, or any discussion of what he was doing or about to do. On the final approach he changed the active routing from what I was flying to a 'picture' he was happier with. I told him I'd like the original routing back and he point blank refused. I asked again more firmly and was dismissed again.

On landing on Sector 4 his comment during the landing roll about my landing (not a bad one!) alomost tempted me to bite, but I took a deep breath and ignored him.

I've spoken to two other F/O's, similar experience levels, and they have had identical days with this chap. All three of us felt utterly worthless by the end of the day. I am utterly convinced that had any non-normal situations evolved there would have been a completely ineffective crew upfront due to the F/O being so disregarded and the tension in the flightdeck.

What do I do?
Do people need to know? Do I get a reputation for myself as a whinger in a new company?
Do I do Nothing?
Tell my Base Captain?
Tell his Base Captain?
Ask Crewing never to roster us together again? What about the other poor sods who have to fly with him?


Thanks for those of you who took the time to read the above, it's quite hard to put in words just how strongly I feel about this and quite how much of an issue I feel this chap is.

[Rwy in Sight]

The last paragraph or so reminds from a true story (?) of a chief captain calling one of the captains and saying:

there are just two f/o who have not asked not to fly with you. When they are gone so are you.

Sorry for not providing any real help

Rwy in Sight

[notdavegorman]

AERO_STUDENT, my advice would be to have a chat with a Capt you trust and get on with well on a personal level, preferably not a management type but possibly a Training Capt.

Don't volunteer the guy's name unless you're asked to name names, just go through the scenario you've painted and mention other junior F/Os have had similar experiences. It may well be that this guy has a reputation for being an unpleasant character. All airlines have them - Captains and F/Os - and whilst I'm not defending this guy's right to be a complete SOB, to be honest it's all part of the CRM learning process developing appropriate coping strategies to deal with individuals of this ilk.

[PENKO]

I second the above. Talk to a captain you trust. I've been in similar situations (and so have a lot of fo's I've spoken to). It's part of the job and talking to others about it will be very revealing..

...revealing not only about dealing with this particular character, but also maybe, maybe about you own! I am not saying you did anything wrong on that particular day, and I agree that the captain you discribe is a complete #$%#$. But you might have said something, or done something (with the best intentions) that made matters worse.

Don't let it get ya too much!

[tiggerific_69]

check your pms ;)

[Bealzebub]

Aero student.

It is always difficult to answer these type of postings, and indeed to know how best to advise on these type of "events". Sometimes the best advice is simply to forget your irritation and annoyance, and look at this from an entirely different perspective.
In any walk of life there is going to be a spectrum of people and personalities that you will find yourself interacting with. As such there are obviously going to be extremes. In this example there are going to be people you find extremely enjoyable to work with, and people you find extremely frustrating to work with. It may be that other people find the same people fall into the same margins, but it would be very unusual for an individual to be categorized in the same fashion by everybody they interact with.

CRM used effectively ( and it isn't always ) should be a tool that enables you to better recognise and cope with behaviour and personality in others and work with it. It is not a cure for differences and it is not a form of homoginization that always provides for an abscence of stress.

Ask yourself this question. Do you think that the best and worst experiences you have had in your 12 months of airline flying, will still be the same best and worst in 36 months ? How about in 5 years ? How about in 25 years ? They might, but it is very unlikely. Similarly the action you might consider now is based on a limited exposure. It may well not be the same action in those corresponding time periods, when you have the benefit of more experience yourself.


If I considered the 5 best First Officers I currently fly with. What attributes do they all have in common ? That is a difficult question to answer, because they all have different personalities. However I would say that a strong adaptable personality would be common to the group. It would take a lot to get them angry, because they can adapt to the captains they fly with whilst still retaining a strong sense of their own individuality and character. That is not to say they don't get irritated as I am sure they do, but they do not display it readily.

I think some people have these characteristics as part of their basic makeup. However I think a lot of what makes a good F/O is learned by experience. That aquisition of knowledge and experience is also the foundation of what makes them go on to become good Captains.

There can't be many of us who have been doing this job for a good number of years that cannot totally sympathise with your predicament. We have been there as well. However looking back some of those "nightmares" actually turned out to be a learning source, sometimes negative but more often than not positively so, even though it didn't feel like it at the time. You just have to be as good as you can be. Be yourself, but be adaptable. Learn from your experiences even if the experience isn't always pleasant. It may be that the Captain thinks he is imparting something useful to you, even though you feel it is critical or unnecessary. Not everybody is a good teacher.
Remember that although you may be PF, he or she is still the Captain and although good communication ought to be employed, sometimes it isn't, and there may be FMC information that the Captain wants up that you feel is unwarranted.

If you feel that this Captains behaviour is erratic or dangerous then there is an obligation on you to report this matter appropriately, however reading between the lines, I feel that you find the character and behaviour "difficult" rather than dangerous ? I am not trying to understate how frustrating you find this, or how difficult it may be to deal with. However I do think you should take a deep breath and not let this wind you up. In all likeyhood things will get better over a period of time even if for no other reason, you become more experienced in such issues. Maybe try a different approach and regard him as a challenge to be conquered. Thank him for his advice, appear to be pleased by his comments. You might well find it endears a gradually different and more positive behaviour from him. Whether it works or not, it will become part of your armoury for dealing with another situation further on in life.

The Captain is a part of the crew, and although in charge he/she is still a resource that you as a First Officer also need to manage !

[LJDRVR]

Excellent advice here, particularly from bealzbub.

Sounds to me like you made an attempt to get him to participate. Your comment that these briefings were also for your benefit, along with the aside that you'd appreciate his experienced input were excellent.

I'm not as familiar with the European cockpit culture as I am with things here in the states, but I would echo the advice to bring the issue up with a Captain you trust. Refuse to identify the individual, that will demonstrate to the Captain involved that you're not just another gossip-mongering FO. See what they have to say.

Once off probation, you have the option of confronting (tactfully) the offender personally. If they're not receptive, and you get the feeling you're just spinning your wheels, then you advise the gentleman in question you will be taking your concerns to professional standards.

It's been my experience that once confronted, many of these bullies will instantly back down and start behaving. In the meantime, search for something you can get this person to talk about. Even if it's themselves and why they're god's gift to aviation, at least the humour will make it more bearable.

I wish you success!

[vapilot2004]

Refuse to identify the individual, that will demonstrate to the Captain involved that you're not just another gossip-mongering FO.

LJDRVR offers an important detail that should be adhered to - barring any safety concerns of course.

I know very well what you are talking about Aero_S. Let me offer a few things I have observed over the years:

People are occasionally just grouchy.
Well, and then unfortunately some are permanently so. :eek:
have a laugh at that idea while you appreciate your own lack of real misery.

Your superiors know this guy already and may be more interested in your potential negative, 'non-team player' reaction than what actually may have transpired between you and he.

Maybe your next stint with this guy will be better - work hard (but not too hard) to make it so.

I've found that some of the most seemingly objectionable :mad: people I've worked with, in the beginning, turn out to be among the wisest and surprisingly decent fellows I've known - after the dust settled.

Good Luck !

[Ignition Override]

This problem shows up fairly often on Pprune-so you can see that you are never alone, even in a two-man c0ckp1t.

Be extra careful to never state the first or last name of the person. After you tell two or three people ("Oh no, it is safe with me...), somebody will betray your confidence and tell the guy that you were complaining about him. The "old boy" club? Being part of the younger generation can make you an outsider.

Men are just as bad as women, when it comes to gossip and rumours. Maybe worse. :cool:

I once made this mistake (among others).:O

[AERO_STUDENT]

Hello All,


First of all, thank you for some very very helpful replies. Again, from a lowly F/O it's really appreciated to get some thought out, lengthy replies from guys who've (probably) seen and heard of this situation many times before.

Some comments;

Ignition Override: - The chap's name is still only with me, and one other F/O that I have confidence in. Long may it stay that way.

Bealzebub: - Thankyou for taking the time for that reply! If, in 5 years time, this is the worst day I've ever had in the air, I'll be a happy chap indeed. If, in 35 years time, I've still not had a worse day, I'll be very happy. I think you read correctly between the lines that "I found the chap 'difficult' rather than dangerous", however part of the reason I am still concerned about this day was that I believe the two are far from mutually exclusive.



As an update - I've emailed a training captain who I know reasonaby well with the text from my initial post above, to see what his comments are. I'm awaiting his reply.

When I spoke to the other F/O about this Captain I asked him why he had a bad day with this Captn, before I told him my story, to try and judge whether I had invoked a certain type of behaviour or it was more indicative of the Capt's typical personality.


I also thank you for your comments about using this particular day as a learning experience (as indeed all days are), and benefitting from the experience. Early on in the day I realised that it was not going to be the same kind of 'fun day out' that can be had with many crews, and it would be a day to work hard, draw deep on my recent training and try to be as professional as possible. I am glad that I didn't 'bite' to any comments and maintained my self-discipline.


Thank you again guys, any further comments gladly appreciated. I will post any updates or replies.

:)

[RVR800]

He sounds a nightmare this chap..

The guys that fly regularly with him may need some collateral (assuming they have complained)

[Flying Dispatcher]

Don't let it get you down! I think that we have all flown with the same sort of guy, and you are right, it isn't fun!! Although you say that he is awkward, rather than dangerous, it does become dangerous when an incident occurs!!

Aero_student, would you be willing to PM me and let me know what airline it is that you work for? From the story you are telling, it seems very similar to a couple of other stories and I am curious.

Well done for standing up to him though....!!

[tailwheel76]

I've had a similar experience with a captain a year ago soon after going on the line (maybe the same one) and it took all the fun away from the job, making me feel I hadn't progressed at all.

I spoke to a couple of guys and they pointed out that he was probably lacking in confidence himself, so built himself up by picking on the lesser experienced.

I flew with him again a few months later, this time more prepared for his personality. I made sure I looked at the flight the previous day and took note of anything extra-ordinary, refreshed on any SOP's, previous feedback etc (ie treating it a bit like a line check) so on the day I knew that what I said and did was right. I stuck ridgidly to SOP's and kept chat to a minimum. Needless to say there was things I did or said wrong, so I just bit my tongue as I knew my performance was fine.

I did the usual at the end of the day, asked for feedback, which he was all to eager to give, noted anything useful, shook hands and went home, drawing a line under the day, not taking it to heart.

On the plus side though he makes me raise my game whenever we fly, which can only be a benefit.

He may have your best interests at heart but perhaps doesn't have the social skills to get his message across properly.

[FougaMagister]

One point that seems to have been missed so far is the impact such unpleasant behaviour would have on CRM in case of an emergency. Captain and F/O are supposed to "gel" as a crew BEFORE, not DURING, an emergency. When the s..t hits the fan then it's too late to ask him to change his/her approach to CRM (or lack of it).

If that's more than an occasional occurence, then this guy is in need of some serious CRM refresher course!

Cheers

[Lou Scannon]

The question that you are really asking is:

Is it it me or is it him?

Try having a chat with one or two of the other first officers from that base. Are they having the same trouble with this man?

Don't forget that if this person has a real personality problem, he will be adept at making his victim feel that it is his fault all the time. His weakness is that this works for just one target and the word soon gets around!

[FlyFree]

I have noticed that it is much easier to get "what you want" ( Crm-wise) in the cockpit in these cases, if you can back your actions with knowleage.

When you say or do something, and the Capt. is negetive about this action, and you can back it up with some kind of information ( SOP and so on)
why you are doing this, in a " nice" way, without picking a fight, 90% of the time they will respect you for it.

Trust me it works.

You will get a good rep. that you actually know what you are doing, without showing off, the capt's will relax, and you will have nice rides in the future...

Btw, if you have one of these nightmere rides, you might want to have a talk with the Capt. when post briefing, but be sure it is only between 4 eyes.

Good luck.

[Max Angle]

I would second all the advice given above. A difficult situation and one that most people who are now skippers, including your rather trying colleague, will have been in before which makes it all the more inexcusable. He does need a CRM refresher but the trouble is that almost by definition those who need it most are those least likely to be influenced by that sort of training. I would say you have done the right thing in contacting a trusted colleague and full marks for not biting back, it would have made you feel better at the time but far better to rise above it and claim the moral high ground in your own mind if not his.

Unfortunately these guys are VERY hard to get rid of, they are normally pretty good technical operators and hand flyers who are on their best behaviour in the sim. and during line checks. Wait for him to retire or leave, file the experience away and use him as an example of what not to be like when you are in the left seat yourself.

[cavortingcheetah]

:uhoh:

A lot of Captains seem to forget that once they were where you are now !

I had a skipper like that in Africa, many moons ago. He was ex RAF, bush combat and all and gave everyone who was not ex RAF a very hard time. (This is not a dig, just one case fact).
Once my great buddy, a relatively junior Captain had whispered in this chap's ear the fact that I was ex Fleet Air Arm (which I was not) I never had any more problems.:D Mind you; I had some horse feathers to go with the story.
One day your self deluding God will make a cracker of an error. They all do eventually. You will of course be the soul of kindness and discetion in extricating his backside from the alligator pond and you will never rub his nose in it. A warm glow of self satisfaction should now begin to flow through your veins as you imagine all the ghastly mistakes he could make and how jolly damned worthwhile you will indeed be when you salvage the aforementioned part of his anatomy and any others that he may have readily to hand.:D Your time will come!:E

[Doors to Automatic]

The guy sounds like a complete tw*t

I would leave it a few months the send a raft of anonymous letters to the chief pilot from different cities using different styles, fonts etc.

This individual probably behaves like this with everyone so wouldn't have a clue who is on his case.

Hopefully the powers that be would investigate.

Thank your lucky stars you are not based at the same city!

[chasing767]

i'd say this is the most demanding part of the job.
but sometimes sh!t happens.
Ask Crewing never to roster us together again?

seems to be the easiest way to solve it out if You have such a possibility. I flew for a companyin which you would be ingnored with such a request What about the other poor sods who have to fly with him?
let'em play their own games. They may find this chap friendly on the contrary.

try to watch'em carefully and learn as much as You can while flying with such blokes . then You get the idea of what Captain YOU MUSTN'T BE when your time comes in the future.
it really has worked for me. good luck

[GearDown&Locked]

Bealzebub: Not everybody is a good teacher

Quite so. You probably came across with a person who has great dificulty in trusting others openly, and he probably feels unconfortable with yonger pilots, and from what I've read on your post, the way he was always correcting every word you said reveals it. If he has no diplomatic abilities to let him share his knowledge with you, it may sound like some grumpy old bitching bloke - it happens in every line of work!

My unworthy advice: as FlyFree and tailwheel76 have said, show the man you know your stuff more than enough, i.e. if you say something like "traffic is about 5 miles at 3 o'clock" for his ears it sounds like you can't really read a distance acurately, so the way to defuse it is "traffic is AT 6 miles, 3 o'clock" and make sure it's acurate, don't use words like "about..." "probably..." "not sure..." because it is the trigger to get the worst out of that poor soul. Otherwise it will sound to him that you've just popped inside HIS cockpit right out of a dodgy flying school C150.
Nevermind, just fly the damn thing!

Happy Landings:ok:

[Reverand Lovejoy]

Aero Student,
A great thread. I feel you are purely the voice for many young, low houred pilots out there in the same situation. I wish you the best of luck and hope that this situation doesn't make you sour when you arrive in the left hand seat!
I do have another question though which follows on from a comment made by Bealzebub:
If you feel that this Captains behaviour is erratic or dangerous then there is an obligation on you to report this matter appropriately,
What do you do leading up to this situation if you consider it to be dangerous? Senario = Captain PF, F/O PNF (or PM, whatever they call it nowadays:= ), and the Captain has breifed the approach but is way low on slope. It is mentioned and he dismisses the fact. No improvement made and continues far too low on slope. F/O now nervous and express their concerns and gives a sensible solution. Again, it is dismessed as "No problem - I've got it"
At what point does action need to be taken. The F/O considers this position to be a real threat to the safety of the aircraft, but also doesn't want to snatch the controls and risk their career in case this person really did "have it"
Primarily my question is....... if the PF is in a situation where they have deviated from the agreed path of flight, for whatever reason. How long do you leave it until you take control. Also, what does 'take control' entail. Is it a stern word, or full authority over the controls?
I must express that I do not fly commercially and am currently studying C.R.M and this type of question always raises it's ugly head. I also have an interview coming up and in the past I've always been asked "Have you ever had to challenge management, how did you go about it?" and I think this could help.
How do people who have to put up with this for real deal with this?
Many thanks in advance
The Reverand :ok:

[Bealzebub]

Reverand, you have a valid question but I think it is a case of being more involved with it to better understand the nuances. However if there is a significant deviation of the glideslope the non handling pilot would call glideslope once and expect to see a clear correction or immediate trend towards full correction. If not he calls it again and that is it. If there is no immediate response from the pilot flying he says "I have control" and takes the requisite corrective action himself. Probably a go-around at this point. The GPWS system would also likely be adding its electronic chorus to the spoken information by this point ( assuming an ILS approach ).

The reason for the action is to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its occupants. The action taken is to comply with that requirement in an unusual situation. There is no likely career to worry about if the aircraft hits the ground. Obviously there are shades of subtlety in the judgement to excercise this scenario and it is only likely to be undertaken if the continued trend is very likely to put the aircraft in imminent and real jeopardy.

As soon as the first deviation call is made the Pilot not flying should expect a verbal resonse to the challenge. If no verbal response is received after two such calls he must assume the PF is incapaitated and assume control. That is normally the standard operating procedure in most companies operting manuals.

[vref130]

For years I flew with the 'old-style' Capt's fresh out of WWII and most of them were great airmen and real gentlemen. But...some were of that vintage were of the yelling "Gear Up & Shut Up" style. And, in those days co-pilots (B4 the word 'F/O' was invented) we were just that, for the most part; radio operators and gear/flap/oil cooler tenders. But, as aircraft became more sophisticated, these old farts needed a great deal of help transitioning to the jets and I, like a lot of my peers were former military jet jockies, who did try to help our left seat prima donna's. Some accepted that help, and a lot did not. They were the ones who retired rather than upgrade to the jets. Problem solved? Nope. You will always find jerks in the left and right seats. But, in the left seat they are dangerous. However, I vowed a long, long time ago to learn from the Cappy's who were good AND were not so good; I improved my skill level from the good ones and improved my 'monitoring' level from the ones that were inept. Bootom line: I made up my mind to never let a left seater kill me, even if it cost me my job; Airlines are always hiring....
And, as a Capt. I ALWAYS told my F/O to watch me like a hawk because I just THINK I walk on water and glow in the dark..... With that in mind, 43 years of flying over 36,000 hrs were quite an adventure... Good Luck!

[Tarq57]

I'm not an airline pilot, but CRM-type behaviours feature strongly in my workplace. More so now than when I first started, and there were quite a few 'prima-donnas' around then.
See if you can get a squizz at a video titled "The wrong stuff" (if you haven't seen it already). It might help you decide at what point this sort of behaviour can be dangerous rather than merely unpleasant. (In my view from a control tower, in my situation, it has the potential to be dangerous all the time).
Very good book, still relevant today, "Fate is the hunter" by Ernest K. Gann. Pioneering airline routes in the first days of the DC3 etc.
Seems he went through experiences almost identical to yours.

[Ignition Override]

Aero Student: Is there any encouraging news? If your probationary period is over, this can help the new pilot relax a little bit. Somebody can tell the General Napoleon wannabe that the big stuff is priority-the chickensh!t should not distract us from the bigger things.
During a simulator checkride many years ago, a Captain told me that his lady FO was a bit picky about a few minor, slightly mis-worded checklist responses :8, but these were very slight. When she next got to, i.e. "ok, Approach Checklist: "frequency and course?" instead of "checked and set", he responded once or twice with..."chickensh1t".

She quickly got the message and stopped being an 0600 'Martinet'. A real Martinet is supposedly a really picky micro-manager etc.

Or can the FOs bid after the Captains enter their bid requests, and if not on standby, avoid either the same printed (block) monthly schedule, or tell a computer to avoid any trips with employee (i.e.) # 123456 ?

[mattdog]

An interesting thread. I'm actually a military multi captain so am not sure of the reporting procedures in the airlines. As many of you know their are procedures for reporting these issues anonimously in the military. I'm very interested in CRM and I think we, in the military, probably have more than our fair share of old and bold pilots stuck in their ways. The question, I believe, you have to be asking yourself is: Would someone who has a less forceful or tolerant attitude than yourself be drawn into a situation with this captain that may result in a flight safety incident? If you can honestly say that the CRM training and selection process in your airline produces pilots who can all deal with this situation then fine, if not then this captain needs to be reported. Personally I wouldn't tolerate a Captain like this on my section for very long but I think we are more willing to point the finger than in the civil sector where jobs are of a higher premium.

[Gary Lager]

2high2fly - be careful who you step on on the way up, you might meet them again on the way down..

mattdog - there are methods for bringing such errant behaviour to the notice of responsible training management in the civil world - tolerance isn't exhibited in the civil world because of fear we might lose our jobs (except in Ryanair!), but because it is cheaper, more ethical, and better in the long run to retrain those pilots whose standards have slipped than simply to sack them.

It is a requirement that UK airlines have in place an in-house confidential HF reporting scheme (much like the Uk services CONDOR, I believe) - this is an appropriate mechamism for bringing such deviant behaviour to the attention of those who have the resonsibility for sorting it out.

[cavortingcheetah]

;)

Had I not a care for the future I might just whack off something along these lines:;)

Dear Scrotal One,

Just before I wing my way to blue skies new; I wanted you to have the benefit of some professional words as to your manifest lack of aviation skills.
I realize that as one who flew from Langebaan in the days before CRM was a mooted subject, there are serious gaps in your knowledge and comprehension of two crew operations. It is probably a great shame that you did not have the benefit, as did so many of my friends, of flying for The Fleet Air Arm instead of piloting (Hunters?) through the blue skies and onto the long runways of South Africa.
Had you had the opportunity to train with the aforementioned service, you might have realised that it contributes nothing either to concepts of safety or of airmanship to behave in an obnoxiously patronising way to those who are, if only within the company hierarchy, your juniors. Neither does such bullying and egocentric behavior add to the safety of the skies. Indeed, your constant ridiculing and ignorance of certain cockpit procedures which have become axiomatic with flight safety and courtesy, do nothing other than to demonstrate to others, your own inadequacies for the position which you are fortunate enough to command with your present employer.

Toodle Pip!:oh: