Crosswind limits for CPL students.

[172_driver]

Hi all,

I don't know if this is the most suitable forum for this question but I think real instructors can provide me with the most professional answer.

I am doing the CPL with an FTO with operations manual and all that stuff. Every so often it is quite windy on the days of flying which often prevent solo flying. The issue is though, how strong wind is still within limits for solo flying? I can honestly say that I have not been solo released for circuit practice in crosswinds exceeding 6-7 kts.

The instructors often let the student make the descision if they feel capable to fly and battle the prevailing conditions. But there seems to be an ulterior motive that they in fact want us to cancel the flight if their is xwind exceeding 6-8 kts. If we cancel they say; very good descision, flight safety. But if we say we want go then they say; ....well, they don't say a ****.
The operations manual allows crosswind components of up to 11 kts. (solo) during the PPL phase and 14 kts. (solo) during the CPL phase. As I said earlier, I have not even been close to those limits.

I brought the question forward to the CFI to hear is opinion in this matter. I told him that me and some classmates wanted more crosswind practice and preferably solo because we felt we were not very comfortable with our crosswind techniques. He obviously thinks VRB02 kts is excellent for practising touch downs, while I think it would be better to steep turns, chandelles, lazy eights etc. in such conditions, and doing circuit practise when there is some wind to battle.
I am not trying to say I am superman, I can do 20 kts. x-wind if I have to, because I can't. But sooner or later, during or after training, we will probably find ourselves in a situation where there is a hell of a crosswind and having a good crosswind technique is essential.

The CFI didn't agree with me at all. He referred to "A superior pilot is a pilot who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which might require superior skill". He claims he wants to educate pilots who use their good judgement before their good skills. I definately agree with him to some extent. But still I would like to have practised more then 6-7 kts. crosswind all alone in an aircraft when I graduate with a CPL.

It find it really difficult to explain my situation without sounding like a student with a master's confidence. I'd just like to hear some opinions from instructors with various epxeriences in this matter.

Best Regards

172_driver

[AerocatS2A]

The CFI didn't agree with me at all. He referred to "A superior pilot is a pilot who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which might require superior skill". He claims he wants to educate pilots who use their good judgement before their good skills.

Disclaimer: I'm not a flying instructor and don't even pretend to be one on TV, your CFI makes the rules, and you must abide by them.

The CFI is quite correct in saying that a superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid having to use superior skill. However, that old saying implies that you have some superior skill to avoid using. I think he is somewhat missing the point if he thinks that by teaching good judgement, there is no need to teach or practice good skills. There will always be times where skills are required no matter how good the judgement is.

Besides, I don't think landing in a crosswind up to the demonstrated limit for the aircraft is demonstrating superior skill anyway, it should be something that anyone can handle adequately.

If you are unsure of your crosswind skills, then I think you should request some dual in a strong crosswind, then at least you'll feel better about it and if the opportunity comes up later to do some by yourself, take it up. Of course you should always make sure you have a backup plan. Don't go and practice cross wind landings in winds approaching your own limits, at an airfield with just one runway. You need to have an into wind runway available in case the cross winds proove a little too demanding.

Ultimately though, the CFI runs the show, he's responsible to the flight school's owners, and if he is uncomfortable letting you solo in certain conditions, then that is that.

Edited to add: There is a difference between someone having good judgement, and someone making decisions that they think their superiors want them to make. Someone with good judgement will make the same good decision regardless of whether they are under the guidance of an instructor or not. It sounds like you guys would be out practicing in stronger cross winds if you could, therefore I'm not sure that the CFI is teaching you anything more than to follow his rules.

[cleggs]

As an instructor, I would not send a student on an early solo flight with more than an 8 kt crosswind component. However, after the student has mastered the basics of landing they need to learn to handle the max x-wind for the aircraft. Here in Aus, we have a test of basic handiling (GFPT) and the student must demonstrate crosswind circuits.


Just a few weeks ago had to go-around because preceeding a/c landed on the grass after drifting off a 30 metre wide rwy in a x-wind. Another time, did a check flight with a student (records said he had finished all the sequences and just waiting for cash to do ppl test) 17-20 kt of x/w, absolutelu no correction at all! Different instructors teach different techniques so I thought he's just learnt to kick it aorund a bit later thats all. 200 ft, nothing, 100 ft, nothing, 50 ft nothing, starting to flare nothing, starting to drift over the grass and at quite an angle the rwy, TakingOverWhatWereYouDoing???? I landed it and as we were taxiing back in queried what technique he had been tought. Very blase said that what had happened "wasn't that dangerous was it?" Also revealed that he had run off said 30 m wide rwy when solo earlier in his training.

My point is that it is better to be safe than sorry. Ask your instructor for some dual in a decent x-wind. You won't learn unless you practice it but in those conditions you need to be competent at handling it before you get out there by yourself.

Good luck with your training and have fun.

[pilgrim flyer]

Sent a student on a 1st solo in a healthy 8kts straight across recently, very nice job she made of it too....

You will need to be able to deal with stronger. As with many skills in flying- best achieved by nibbling at your limits in order to extend them and always remember that after any lay off you won't be as good as you (recall) you were the last time you flew.

If you are flying with someone with higher limits (e.g. an instructor) then you can probably take bigger nibbles and raise your limits more expeditiously - and therefore more cheaply.

Do you have any articular objection to building up to a higher limit by flying dual?

PF

[huckleberry58]

There are a number of ways you can increase you proficiency and confidence in crosswinds. I used one or a number of the following:

1. Schedule a crosswind circuits lesson with an instructor. In a C-172 I would recommend something between 15-20 kts crosswind. It would only have to be around 45mins long and you can get 6-7 circuits in.

2. During your CPL VFR navigation 'hour building' dual flights you can practice at one of the airfields you go to if there is a sufficient crosswind available at the time.

The objective is to be able to quantify your crosswind limit. This way you and your instructor will know what you are capable of because you have actually done it.

As to your CFI, I agree with his "statement", however I reckon he's misplaced using that in this context when talking about 6-7 kts crosswinds. I would be encouraging you to increase your crosswind ability by doing a dual lesson.

[172_driver]

Thank you for your answers and whether you are flying instructors or not I think all posts make a valid point. My intention is not to break my limits but to extend them. When graduating with a CPL I would expect a little more out of myself than 6-7 kts. x-wind but without training I am not sure I can cope.

I have 110 h and the target is 150 h. Most of the time remaning is for cross country practice. That means it won't be too much time over for more x-wind practice, not even with instructors. I talked to a student who graduated here last year. He had not had too much of crosswind training either he said and now he had experienced a situation where he had to battle 17 kts. crosswind in a PA28. He managed to put it down safely but the landing was not too neat he said.

Well well, I guess this is not anything to moan about. The CFI makes the rules and we are here to obey them. I just wanted to hear what you guys thought to see how you at other schools. I appreciate all your hints on how to improve my crosswind techniques. So far I can only dream about 15-20 kts. but it must be fun, some stick'n rudder :O
As it feels now, I would stay on ground in such winds because I rather sit on ground longing up than in an aircraft longing down.

[Rosanna]

The objective is to be able to quantify your crosswind limit. This way you and your instructor will know what you are capable of because you have actually done it.

I agree, crosswind limit is not only an operation manual limitation. It depends on individual experience. If a student has never flown satisfactory with the instructor a 15 kts crosswind landing he/she can't do it by him/herself.

Ciao!!!

Rosanna

[foxmoth]

I would expect a PPL to be able to deal with a 15kt xwind in most modern aircraft - someone at CPL level should be able to cope pretty well up to demonstrated xwind limit. Whilst I agree with the "superior pilot" sentiments part of getting to be a superior pilot is getting the skills to start with, and ending up in the odd situation that makes you aware of just where your limits are!:ooh:

[172_driver]

Do you have any articular objection to building up to a higher limit by flying dual?

PF

I noticed I forgot to answer this question. No, I have no objections do building up my x-wind technique dual. Unfortunately the strongest wind I have been practising in dual have been 360/12.

[Rosanna]

I noticed I forgot to answer this question. No, I have no objections do building up my x-wind technique dual. Unfortunately the strongest wind I have been practising in dual have been 360/12.

Also for our students we have this problem because in our field there's no wind... we have to do cross country flights to find it... :uhoh:

Ciao!!!

Rosanna

[172_driver]

The wind is no problem for us, we have too much of it :sad:

[pilotbear]

Sorry but I believe your CFI has only the agenda of looking after himself and his aeroplanes. Crosswind landings are easy, safe and fun if you are shown a good method and get to practice. It makes for the development of good pilots. Any 'competent' CFI knows this and will pursue it if he has pride in the standard of pilots he is producing. I wouldn't be surprised if he couldn't actually cope with a strong crosswind himself.
The crosswind limit is only a manufactures demonstrated guide. It just meand that at that speed no unusual skill or limiting control inputs were required.

Go to another school.

JAA/FAA/TC CRI/IRI/land and sea:ok:

[172_driver]

Thanks for your inputs! I think I have made my picture a bit wider after this thread and as far as I understand we ought to have more x-wind practise to train up the thecnique and coordination.
I think the reasoning between student and instructor is a good way to find out if the prevailing conditions are within the student's capacity. However, I think after all the dual training we've had we should be able to practise it on our own and not cancel due to 6-7 kts. crosswind. Not that I have to do all my x-wind practise solo, but it is another feeling when you know you have accomplished something totally by your own.

172_driver

:ok:

[P.Pilcher]

From the commercial point of view, I remember getting a bit worried about the probable crosswind at my destination before takeoff one day. I got out my mobile and telephoned my chief pilot. "Fair point" he said: "The company limit is indeed 20 kts x wind component, but the manufacturer's is 32 kts. My captains may therefore attempt a landing between 20 and 32 knots at their discretion."

I put it down at 28 kts straight across (J31) - no problem, but I wouldn't let my f/o do it - it was a "Captain's landing" day. In commercial aviation the necessity is to earn your pennies by getting the punters/freight to their destination!

When I was younger and flying C150's I got myself a Canadian tourist permit to validate my British PPL for use in Canada. Naturally I had to check out and we had a crosswind. I got it down O.K., but the words of that instructor's debrief have remained with me to this day:" Guess you were taught to fly by an ex-RAF instructor huh? Pushing the drift off just before you touch down with rudder is fine for little crosswinds. Here we drop the wing into wind and line the A/C up with the runway with rudder - we can put a C150 down with 40 kts across that way."
Often aircraft manuals will state the maximum acceptable xwind that an aircraft can be landed in WITHOUT using a crosswind technique. In recent years this has been interpreted as the crosswind limit using the basis that if a landing is attempted with the wind above this figure, you have no insurance.
That old Canadian instructor's technique works with light singles, twins, Sheds, Twin Otters and J31's in my personal experience. I am assured that you can include the B707 in larger types where the technique works. Those words were as usual ringing in my ears on my 28 kts across day!

P.P.

[huckleberry58]

Yes, the 'wing down' vs 'crab' technique. When I used to instruct in NZ using cessnas and pipers, I would teach the crab approach until the point where we 'roundout' then kick the rudder and aileron in. As we know the wing down technique is more difficult and the aircraft is out of balance when using cross controls. Now on the B777, technique is still the same however rudder goes in somewhere between 100ft to 50ft AGL and a tiny if any aileron as the inertia of the aircraft will keep it on centreline. The autoland on the B777 does the same, and does it beautifully.

[185skywagon]

And of course, using the slip method will let you know if you are going to have enough rudder to maintain your chosen line on the runway/strip.
If you cannot maintain the line with full rudder, there is not much point in continuing, is there?

[Han 1st Solo]

As the CFI of a busy PPL training school in the North of England, currently training 100 students, with only one runway, crosswind landings are a necessary part of student training otherwise one would never fly. Our flying order book states a crosswind limit for students of 12 knots for the PA28 and 10 knots for the 152. I am happy for students to fly solo upto the limits if they are capable, some are more than capable of exceeding those limits, however you would be on a hiding to nothing if you were to risk it and something went wrong. If they are not capable of managing the full allowable limit then the limit is lower, it all depends on the student.

Students inevitabley experience higher crosswinds when flying dual and will hopefully give them the necessary experience to deal with the higher crosswind limits they will be allowed to fly upto once in possession of their licence. As said on other posts it is wise to build up your crosswind limit bit by bit or fly dual until you feel confident.

[Keygrip]

Han - what figure does your Flying Order Book/Training Manual give as the maximum crosswind component for a candidate on a CPL skill test (or are you PPL only - which is a slight thread drift)?

Put the same question in PPL terms - what does the book say is the maximum crosswind component for a candidate on a PPL test?

[Han 1st Solo]

Key grip,

I don't deal with the CPL side of things, but as far as i'm aware the CPL limit on test is that of the aircraft 25 knots for the Cougar. Sorry for wandering off thread a little.

Han.

[LocoDriver]

More accidents have ocurred with pilots NOT being trained to handle crosswinds properly, than aircraft being landed in a strong crosswind with poor technique.

I teach max crosswind flying in both C152 and 172 aircraft, and it is also important to teach correct ground handling(especially so in the high wing Cessnas)
Some organistaions steer away from crosswind training, as the instructors themselves are not confident in crosswind.
It should be taught to students prior to solo cross-country flying.I use 10 kts for students for their training, increasing it as they get close to their PPL's.
Here in New Zealand, cross winds are easy to find, the wind can change within 30 minutes or so.

Cheers from the Sunny regions!

:) :) :ok: :ok:

[Keygrip]

Han, you're cool - don't fret.

Curious that on one hand (at some schools) the "students" are not to be taught in anything above some 50% of the aircraft demonstrated component - but on test day (to prove their competence as a professional pilot) they may be expected to land in max allowable (using the figure in the ops manual).

If I were an employer (which I'm not), I'd be very unhappy if one of the pilots decided to divert an aircraft full of fare paying passengers, or a load of time restricted perishable goods, because the cross wind component was approaching 50% of the demonstrated. :{

Just thinking out loud - 2cents - that's all.

[Han 1st Solo]

Key grip.

I find that truely amazing that some schools teach that way, its no way to prepare future commercial pilots for commercial operations, whether it be airline, air taxi or instructing. The student must be taught to handle the aircraft in its maximum allowable crosswind.

Han. :bored:

[glekichi]

I had a bad x-wind landing today.

Im a new instructor and my student was not there to practise x-wind landings, but one had appeared while we were away training and I decided to demonstrate.

The x-wind was right on demonstrated limits for the a/c.

All was looking beatiful, until the xwind dropped to near zero over the fence, then, of course, right as we touched down the wind reappeared with a 20kt gust from near enough to 90 degrees to us.

Down safely with no damage, but it was a very ugly landing... so bad I thought I had burst a tire.:yuk:

Dont know what Im trying to say here... just trying to get over my frustration.
:ouch: