Pictures of aircraft water-skiing? Genuine or not?

[Flying Lawyer]

Harvards water-skiing .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/T6_1sm.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/T6_4sm.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/T6_team7sm.jpg


Extremely skilful even looking ahead .........

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/T6_team_crop1.jpg


......... but doing it while keeping formation!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/T6_1271crop2.jpg



Not my pics. They were sent to me by a friend.

Anyone seen them display?


FL




As revealed later in this thread, the pictures are genuine.

They were taken by the renowned South African aviation photographer Frans Dely and have since been posted on various websites.

[Lister Noble]

Amazing,I can't believe anyone could fly that accurately,but am obviously wrong.
Surely if they dipped the wheels in any further they would have a nose-in,
even a couple of inches would be enough?
Lister

[2Donkeys]

Mixed feelings when I see pictures like that.

On the one hand, "Wow, amazing".

On the other, "What a shame they can't take such risks with a rather more 'disposable' aircraft type".

2D

[Strepsils]

But what you can't see is the submarine that they're all welded to!;)

[BRL]

They are brilliant pictures Tudor, they have put a big smile on my face today, thanks for posting them. :ok:

[Lister Noble]

Just been talking to one of my flying pals and he has seen this happen,he reckons they are mostly crop sprayer pilots.
Lister

[B2N2]

Many years ago I saw a documentary on the BBC about Europeans flying crop dusters in the Sudan spraying cotton fields.
They used to do this as entertainment after sitting on a remote airstrip for months.
L:} ooked scary then and looks scary now...

amazing though....

[stiknruda]

Seen them? I believe I might be well acquainted with at least one of them!:eek:

[mad_jock]

Would have thought that it would be nigh on impossible to get the wheels any deeper. The water would be like concrete at that speed.

I believe its quite a common sport round the world for tail draggers. I think there is a pic out of a DC3 doing it as well.

I would imagine though you would go from a looking dangerous and stupid but being OK. To really dangerous and stupid if you tried it in a tricycle gear aircraft.

[Flying Lawyer]

Lister Noble he reckons they are mostly crop sprayer pilots. They could well be.

I learnt to fly a Harvard on a farm strip in Texas many years ago, and my check pilot was a cropduster. We flew along Padre Island one day - largely uninhabited, just off the coast, stretching for miles along the Gulf of Mexico - and I took up his suggestion of doing some low flying.
After a few miles along the deserted beach, through the headset came 'D'ya want me to show ya low flying?' (I thought I was.) I discovered our ideas of 'low' were very different. Wow!
As we turned to head for home, 'D'ya wanna try it? I'll watch ya.'
'Yes, Sirreee!' :)

He took me up in a crop-duster before I left. (Single-seat, but a roomy cockpit - and many miles from any FAA eyes. ;) ) His precision and low level handling skills were absolutely phenomenal.
I'd always assumed cropdusters stayed above, or climbed over, any telephone lines/small power lines stretched across fields. Wrong!
'No way, wires can kill ya! Gotta stay under wire height in case ya don't see 'em. Anyways, if the farmers round here see daylight under your wheels they complain to the boss and won't pay.'
The first wing-over from virtually ground level when doing a 180 at the end of a field took me a little by surprise (to say the least), but it was one of the most exhilarating and exciting flights I've had yet.

I was lost in admiration for his skill, but it was just another day's work for him.
Every man to his job, as they say.

FL

[Established Localiser]

You would just pray the Wasp on the inside of the windshield doesnt move :eek:
Flying Lawyer
Awesome story !!
They must know every inch of the aircrafts envelope !
EL

[fireflybob]

Fantastic pics - would be good for a Caption Competition?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Would have thought that it would be nigh on impossible to get the wheels any deeper. The water would be like concrete at that speed.


I've seen this sort of thing (on vid) before and wondered if the above is true. I can well imagine that the wheel tends to ride on the surface, and it would take a really hard push to get it to dig in. The picture of the guy surfing along in the T6 while looking at his formation partner seems to confirm that moderate forward stick pressure will hold the wheels just on the surface and you don't need to be looking ahead while doing this. But that plume of water could do nasty things to the tail with some aircraft if it hit it, I'd think.:oh:

SSD

[Lister Noble]

I think the pilot who used the Pawnee to do our farm was South African ,and remember his name as Noel Kimvik,based at Southend,this would be in the early 80's
He was about 50 and when I asked about risks and fatalities he said,
"You see them either very young or my age,the ones in between are dead"
He also said he does occassionally take passengers squeezed in with him,my eyes lit up,then he told me I was the wrong sex!
Lister:)

[G-CPTN]

Just come to this thread. As far as reality is concerned, I watched a programme on TV where Icelandic 'dragsters' ran across the surface of a (non-frozen) lake. The complete weight of the vehicle was supported by the surface of the water (provided they kept going and kept the power on). Programme was BBC Top Gear.
Point is that the aircraft will be 'supported' by the water.

[Tarnished]

Sorry to burst the bubble, or is it surface tension on this but I think this is a good bit of photoshop magic.

Tarnished

[alexflynn86]

I don't think it's photoshop... I reckon it's a bunch of pilots with foat ratings... They just forgot their floats! I mean hey, these things happen...:D

[Sleeve Wing]

C'mon, guys.
I know it looks pretty calm but, I mean, ALL of them in contact ALL of the time ??
:sad: :rolleyes:

[l_reason]

Here is the video of the off-road trucks DRIVING ON WATER!!!
http://www.heimska.com/video/torfaera_a%20_vatni.wmv
Landing a CUB ON water with no floats…. Kind of.
http://cubdriver749er.com/gallery.html
My money says there is no photoshop work here!

[SkyHawk-N]

I think the pictures are fake. The reason? see below, a zoomed in portion of one of the pictures. Notice how the pixels surrounding the actual aircraft don't look smooth and feathered like the rest of the picture. :8

http://www.csharpprogrammer.com/pictures/gear.jpg

I think the aircraft have been 'pasted' over any existing picture of, say, water skiers or something similar. Could be wrong though.

[Heliport]

Opinions seem to be divided.
Thought it would be interesting to turn it into a Poll.


Genuine? Fake?


Please post your reasons / any comments


(Note - Over 1200 people had viewed the thread before the Poll started so the total number of votes will be low in proportion to the number of views.)





Heliport

[B2N2]

Could have been taken with a digital camera, the wheels are probably in motion from the water friction, therefore the pixels are not smooth.
I've seen this in a BCC documentary (see post above)
I've also seen plenty of video of snow scooters racing across a non frozen lake. Works if they have enough speed when they hit the water with enough speed, if they slow down they sink.
My vote: they're real...:ok:

[G-CPTN]

Although my opinion is that the photos are REAL, I'm suspicious that the backs of the wheels seem to be stationary. I wonder if the pilots are applying toe-brakes (adding to the control difficulty) as, presumably the drag would rotate the wheels? The shutter speed wasn't fast enough to freeze the props, but it IS possible that it might freeze the slower-rotating wheels, allowing the studs to be seen clearly.

Annen Gineer (and photographer).

Website:-
http://www.flyinglions.co.za

And aerial photos (pity the editor can't read 'Nissan' ! I know that 'car-line' photos are more pleasing, but ! ! ! ):-
http://www.flyinglions.co.za/team_in_action.htm

[SkyHawk-N]

Here's another funny thing. What is this shadow doing here? as indicated by the arrow.

http://www.csharpprogrammer.com/pictures/shadow.jpg

If you look closely you can see an awful lot of touching up which has been done with a graphics package, even the company name on the side of each aircraft looks as though it's been applied this way.

[BEagle]

I can just about accept that a single a/c could do this, but not a formation. In any case, the whole thing has a photshop look about it - it's just too perfect.

I reckon it's a fake.

Aircraft pasted over a shot of water skiing, with some clever retouching later!

Happy to be proved wrong though.

[con-pilot]

I agree with BEagle. I could buy off on a single airplane, but in formation?

I also would be happy to be proven wrong.

[Ripline]

Here's another funny thing. What is this shadow doing here? as indicated by the arrow.


Well, that could be explained. There's no reason why the shadow can't be where it is. Sun would be from observer's left.

The reflection from the observer's point of view has to be where it is, though.

Physically, I'm sure that it is possible. The lack of pixillation mentioned outside of the wheel area is explained by the vertical nature of the gear edge: the image doesn't cross a pixel boundary.

On balance, a genuine shot. Thank heavens there are people out there with these skills. (But not with me on board!)

I wish I could perform either operation!:)

Ripline

Edited merely to do a U-turn or whether it was real or not!

[ShyTorque]

I think they are real.

Barnes Wallis knew how it's done. You can't actually backspin the wheels but having the brakes on would have a similar effect. Brakes OFF would allow the wheels to rotate forwards and dig in.

And in Beagle's day - we would have flown underneath them - upside down, don't you know, herumph! :E

[Leezyjet]

It is real, there is a thread in the avcom forum about it. It was for some commercial that was being filmed in South Africa. Had to get special permission from the SACAA to do it (low flying rules etc).

Here is the link :-

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6924

:)

[Adrian N]

Hopefully genuine. Here's another picture of a similar stunt. If 2 Jodels can do it, I'm sure 4 Harvards can too. (2Donkeys - contrary to what you may be thinking, these are not more "disposable" aircraft. They're D140's! ;) )
http://jodel.com/Images/river.jpg
(Image from www.jodel.com )

[B2N2]

http://www.claytor.com/photographs/images/picTomWaterskiing.jpg

Found another one on Google...

And here is another one:
http://www.trip-n-tour.com/micronesia_2003/main_s33.jpg

[Howard Hughes]

Looking at the wakes of these aircraft, I would have to say the pictures are real! A water skiier certainly does not leave that kind of wake, either on 1 or 2 skis. Secondly in the first picture, the 2 middle aircraft wakes are not symmetrical, suggesting varying tensions as the wheels make slight deviations up and down.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[DubTrub]

A few more for your consideration....
http://www.dubtrub.freeuk.com/image001.jpg

http://www.dubtrub.freeuk.com/image002.jpg

http://www.dubtrub.freeuk.com/image003.jpg

http://www.dubtrub.freeuk.com/image004.jpg

I was not involved in any of these (apart from the L2:cool: )

[Flying Lawyer]

I'm staying with genuine.
Not saying I could do it, but I've flown with several exceptionally talented pilots I believe could.

FL

[l_reason]

Once the water in my country turns back to a liquid. I may just try it.
I’m not going to ask you to admit to having done this but if you “know” anyone that could shed some light on the braking issue. To hold brakes or not?
If I ever post a photo you must be aware now that photoshop and I get along well (just for the record).

[J.A.F.O.]

I think it'd be harder to fake it than do it, not that I'm about to try either.

[Sedbergh]

Don't know about the Harvard photos but I have seen the Sudan cropdusting video of "watersking" on a big irrigation canal - and talked to one of the Sudan pilots who claimed that they also did it on the Nile under the Kosti road bridge - They received a polite note from the local Governor asking them to desist!

But if you're an Agricultural pilot you're mad by definition :sad: :ok:

[AerBabe]

I still say genuine too. And it's reminded me that I missed out on the entire display season last year! (With the exception of the practises I've seen from the tower at Duxford).

[effortless]

Summat doesn't look right. Back in the dark ages, Polish Spitfire pilots boasted of "dipping" their wing tips in the Severn. I saw something like it when I was very small. I don't remember what the aircraft was save that it had rondrells on it. The wing tip did not seem touch the water and the wake started a foot or so behind. This is remembered through the filter of fifty odd years so don't bash me too much.

[md902man]

It's real!:) :)

[slim_slag]

Are wing tip vortices totally absent in ground effect? The water below where the wings used to be is pretty untouched, might you expect a little ripple?

Here is a picture of a ground effect vehicle, there is some disturbance of the water under the wing, not seen in the harvard photos

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/ground-effect/lun01.jpg

[effortless]

On the African section here now. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212568)

[J3ST3R]

Don't think it's real?

Watch Aviation Action on Supersport 1 on the 13th of March ...

[Shrike200]

It's real, the only debate seems to be whether it's clever! :D :D

[DaveW]

http://www.atsx91.dsl.pipex.com/Misc/Fred_Nicole_small.jpg
So anyway, there was this bloke Fred Nicole...

Bucker Jungmeister, Bay of Cannes 1951.

Pic from Annette Carson's outstanding history of aerobatics, Flight Fantastic - in which she reports that he repeated the feat "many times, with perfect accuracy".

[WildFrequency]

These photographs are very much the real thing, done with the approval of the South African Civil Aviation Authority. Photographer was Frans Dely, a fairly well known aviation photographer in South Africa, please visit http://www.aviationdimension.com for further information on this photographic shoot. The basics, it has been filmed for a local TV sports channel.
The pilots of this team are all highly experienced, the majority who fly for South African Airways.

[BRL]

DaveW you have post of the year so far!! :D :D :D

[FlyingForFun]

I think they are real.

I also don't think they're quite as difficult to achieve as some people here are saying they are.

Flying an aircraft on solid ground in this attitude is a skill which every tail-dragger pilot should be able to do without thinking about it, because it's exactly what you do every time you take off, and every time you do a wheel-landing. It is something which my instructors made me do for hour after hour (or so it seemed) before they'd try teaching me wheel landings.

The only question, then, is how is it done on water. And, as the Top Gear program clearly showed, a wheel moving at a fast enough speed over water behaves pretty much as if it's on solid ground.

So surely all (and I use the word "all" with a little trepidation here....) that's required is to do a wheel-landing on water, then apply enough power to maintain a fast taxy speed with the tail in the air???

FFF
------------------

[simonhk]

Genuine I reckon.
The shadows, reflections, smoke and plumes all point to it being real. Everythings in the right place, with the right lighting.
It could be faked, but it would take a lot of time and money to do. At least as much as doing it for real. You'd have to fly the ac as close as possible to the water and film them. Then rig up some way of producing the appropriate wakes and plumes and smoke, at the same speed as the ac, and film that from the same relative position as the ac. Then composite it all together seamlessly, moving the ac down to where the plumes/wakes are, and remove all the rigging, plus rigging shadow and reflections. Nightmare job. Weeks of work in a top notch facility. Mega bucks.

I'm a Photoshop veteren, and I do video and 3D animation and compositing.

Theres no point looking at jpeg compressed images for signs of fakery, jpeg compression produces its own edge and 'halo' effects and would cover up any original 'fake' effects.

I also reckon, though I've never tried, that the water would push back at that speed and provide quite some resistance.
If it did dig in, the end would be pretty quick though.

SimonHK

[Spodman]

Had been sent a photo and thort it was fake, And looked at these and voted "fake", but I now concede it is true, but I still can't quite believe it.

Not going to give it a go...

[Lyneham Lad]

I vote genuine.
Aside from all the reasons so far posted, just think of the effect of aquaplaning on a car on a waterlogged road - depending on tyre condition, groove depth etc, aquaplaning can occur at 60mph. In other words, a wedge of water under each wheel is supporting a vehicle weight of circa 1500kg. Also, think of F1 cars on their slicks and how, at relatively low speeds they cannot generate enough downforce to break through the water and hence they skate off the track in all directions.

[Bronx]

the only debate seems to be whether it's clever!
I say it's darn clever.
Thank God there's still some daredevil spirit of adventure left with all the ninnies who think folk need to be 'protected' from themselves. :rolleyes:
If that attitude existed years ago aviation would never have gotten where it has.

Hats off to them. Awesome flying. :ok:

[david viewing]

Wouldn't the wheels be spinning? There's no sign of spray being thrown off by the rotation. You can see it in the cub photos. Perhaps the Havard checklist has "water landing, brakes on"!

Does anyone know if the top gear film is bona fide, or taken in a very shallow piece of water?

Yours, skeptically

[treadigraph]

I believe (courtesy of another forum) that it is usually performed "brakes on" - presumably stationery wheels give a better planing platform than rotating - any scientists out there offer a theory as to why?

I guess it's a bit like bare-foot water skiing - keep the power on and maintain equilibrium and you'll be OK!

[TheKentishFledgling]

I also don't think they're quite as difficult to achieve as some people here are saying they are.

After you then :E

tKF

[FlyingForFun]

TKF - you supply the aircraft, and I'll give it a go!!!

Ok, seriously - if I'm correct about how this is performed (and it is a big "if"), then I certainly used to possess the necessary skills a couple of years ago, although they are a bit out of practice now because I haven't flown tail-draggers for so long.

I certainly wouldn't try it until someone tells me for certain how it's done - but if I'm right, I would guess that, with a suitably experienced instructor sat next to me and a pre-flight brief explaining what's required and the necessary power settings, etc, I would be able to do this at the first attempt, as would any current tail-dragger pilot.

But if my theory as to how it's done is wrong, then it could end up very messy! :\ :ouch: :ooh: :E

FFF
------------

[Chimbu chuckles]

What I posted on another thread in answer to a question from Taildragger....who shares a little unplanned gliding time with me many moons ago.:ugh:

No there is no doubt the waterskiing Harvards are real...many witnesses and the pilots too well known for it to be faked. My only point is they must have practiced quite extensively, both solo and together, before submitting to the photo flight....information on a SA website suggests the actual pass down the lake that is the subject of the photos was one of 5 that day....lots of people there watching...all very well planned....apparently.

On a thread on Private Flying forum there is a picture of two Jodels waterskiing in formation and another of two cubs waterskiing in formation...this particular 'art form' is a lot more widely practiced than I thought.

While not essentially difficult to achieve it is a passtime fraught with potential embarassment.

It is all based around the basic aquaplaning formula...9X square root of the tyre pressure. Clearly there is also some benefit from really big low pressure tyres like the Tundra tyres you see on some back woods cubs etc...the lower the tyre pressure the lower the aquaplaning speed and thus the larger the margin between the 'high speed taxi' and digging in and flipping over. 9 or 10 PSI in Tundra tyres gives an aquaplaning speed of about 25kts....faster than that and you're happily waterskiing.

If you don't have the brakes on you risk wheel spin up which probably wont, you hope, effect the aquaplaning formula (if you are travelling really fast) but will spray a lot of water all over the place.

If you hit something solid in the water you risk being tripped and flip over...remember when we hit that cable on our forced landing in Moresby. It hit about half way up the tyre and we nearly went over, but we ripped it out of the ground a split second later....even so our nose down attitude would have guaranteed the prop/nose impacted the water had we been waterskiing instead of 50+' above the road.

If you are not very carefull rotating to leave the water you may dip the tailwheel in the water or at least put the rear of the aircraft (horizontal stab) in the plume possibly slowing down enough that you almost stop aquaplaning and drag rises...quickly flipping you over.

The actual act of putting the aircraft on the water is the easy part...once you get over the pucker factor. The list of things that can go wrong after that gets a little scary....more so in a light/relatively underpowered aircraft like a cub than heavier/faster/more powerfull aircraft like a C185/Harvard....I would think.

While the statute of limitations has certainly long run out I really don't want to encourage youngsters...suffice it to say my limited experience in the subject was FAR from prying eyes and done in my own C185, flying by myself and done out of youthfull high spirits...not showing off...having seen someone else do it in another C185 some time before. Plus I was a full time bush pilot in those days and very 'comfortable' in the aircraft. The passage of time has made me more aware of the pitfalls of being 'young, dumb and full of come'.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the thread subject piccies as much, if not more than, most people...but I feel a little lucky to have got away with it so many years ago.

What is interesting is so many magazine articles and websites have piccies/ film of people doing it in the USA and you never here of the FAA taking peoples licences off them...using the river to extend takeoff and landing distances available...all good stuff but if you talk to pilots who do that they will be the first to highlight the pitfalls...and more than one has lost, or knows someone who has lost, an aircraft doing it. They are uninsurable while doing it and carry the entire financial risk themselves.

Having said all that it seems to me that it is no more silly than any other 'extreme sport'. As long as it's your aeroplane and you take full responsibility for it while endangering no-one else it's probably quite an acceptable passtime....who knows...if I ever have the spare money to own, and be prepared to wreck, a 150HP cub and some big tyres I might just take it up as a sport:)

[QDMQDMQDM]

As Chimbu Chuckles says, this kind of thing is standard practice in some places if you have a lot of stick time and cojones of titanium:

http://bigrockslongprops.com/media/preview.wmv

And here's a whole discussion on the issue by those in the know, including some rather irascible contributions by someone who I think is our own Chuck Ellsworth, the Catalina pilot who used to contribute here:

http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8693&highlight=videos

QDM

[Rick Storm]

I gave it a go, but forgot the floats..........

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/dazdaz1/image002.jpg

[l_reason]

Chimbu chuckles, FlyForFun, and Bronx,

I like the way you guys think!!
The more I think about this the more I want to try my hand at it. If your up for going for a ride send me a PM
The problem is the heel brakes on my plane. Did you use the brakes when you did it or would you? If it is NOT 100% necessary to hold them on I may try it.
I am relatively young (25). Own my own tail wheel plane, have a couple thousand hours in light singles and have driven a snowmobile successfully on water just for the fun of it. This is my idea of a great personal challenge.

Life is either a daring adventure or nothing!" -Helen Keller Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

[J.A.F.O.]

i reason

There's a much simpler way - you give me your aeroplane and I tell everyone that you did it.

That way you have as many servicable aeroplanes as you would have had, everybody thinks you did it and nobody has to die.

[XL5]

No prop wash, shouldn't there be? And a more mundane thought - which insurance agency would underwrite the risk of an expensive aircraft, possibly x4, of becoming a submarine?

[Milt]

Stay a good margin above your acquaplaning speed.

This will be close to nine times the square root of the tyre pressure in psi with the answer in MPH.

For your car with 36 psi you will lose control on sheet water at about 54 MPH with the car completely supported on the water.

[Flying Lawyer]

Interesting discussion - and voting.

Poll result -

Genuine: 68.42%
Fake: 25.66%
Don't know: 5.92%


The pictures are genuine - not clever photoshop technique.


Since starting the thread, I've found out that the flight took place early in the morning of Sunday, 19th February 2006 at Klipdrift Dam in South Africa.


Superb handling skill. :ok:


Tudor Owen

[nugpot]

which insurance agency would underwrite the risk of an expensive aircraft, possibly x4, of becoming a submarine?
The same insurance agency that would underwrite a display aerobatic team flying 1940's vintage warbirds - none.
This is not more dangerous than all the other stunts display pilots do day after day, in fact it is a lot less dangerous than inverted ribbon cutting 20 feet above the runway, which you always see at airshows.
The dynamic pressure of water at 80 - 90 kts, which these guys seem to be doing, judging by the nose attitude, is immense. Any water skier would tell you that. You are in ground effect, which pushes you away from the water and these are guys who fly formation aeros in these aircraft. they know them very well.
If you are still wondering, look at picture of the singleton on page 1 of this thread. He is looking at the leader - flying formation in other words. He is obviously not worried about going in the drink.

[Speedpig]

Since starting the thread, I've found out that the flight took place early in the morning of Sunday, 19th February 2006 at Klipdrift Dam in South Africa.

Is there a link Tudor?
I'm still struggling to believe it because.... display pilots or not, the risk to life and machine is phenomenal.... a slight, sudden cross wind, an unexpected wake or a floating log (Donald Campbell) could all be disastrous... instantly. Surely it would be difficult to find an expanse of water big enough that would be calm enough?
I want to believe it, it looks amazing.:ooh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I reason....sorry dude...you want to then fill your boots..seriously... do you think anyone will climb in the back for the ride:eek:?

I won't even attempt to say 'just don't' because that would be hypocritical...but some thoughts;

If you really think you are good enough,

Put bigger tyres on your cub...850/6 probably....practice wheelers with the big tyres on land for a while.

Buy a helmut so if you flip you are less likely to be knocked out and drown,

Don't invite mates to watch....to much peer pressure....the very last thing you want is the 'watch this' pressure.

If you decide not to at the last moment be proud of yourself.

Weigh up very carefully the balance between a few seconds of thrill against wrecking your aeroplane...delete this if you can afford to replace/repair it from petty cash;)

Or here's an idea!

Over on supercub.org someone talks about an instructor teaching it in his cub...surely if you can afford to own an aircraft you can afford to pax to the states and spend a long weekend learning how in someone elses aircraft...it will either sate your desire or lessen the chances of wrecking YOUR aeroplane hugely. Why not peruse that thread...I am sure you have..and PM the person and ask?

As I said, it is no more silly or irresponsible than many extreme sports...rock crawling in 4WD for instance...or a mate of mine who's into extreme paragliding(aerobating the bloody things)...or single handed around the world yacht racing....high diving...deep diving...race car driving....rally car driving...unlimited aerobatics...zooming across water on a jet ski:ok:

But I would be doing a fair bit of research before I tried if I was you...I recomend the 'do it on holidays in the states' route...if there is someone over their who teaches it.

[Chippik]

Saw a little article in the back of Flight international about it so its kinda proved it now.

[slim_slag]

No prop wash, shouldn't there be? That's what I find strange about the pictures, the only effect the planes seem to be having on the surface of the lake is where the wheels are touching. In the first photo the plane appears to have skipped momentarily out of the water, and the surface is remarkably undisturbed. No ripples from prop wash or aerodynamic effects. I totally believe a practiced pilot can do this, but that doesn't mean to say these actual photos are real, but it seems like enough people have seen them do at that location and on that day, so they are real. I guess I overestimated the effects of propwash/vortices when that close to the surface.

[FlyingForFun]

Speedpig,

Just because this stunt involves things you personally do not do regularly, do not confuse that with those things being inherently dangerous.a slight, sudden cross windAs I said, this attitude is regularly practiced by every tail-dragger pilot, every single time they take off, and quite often when they land. With practice, tail-dragger pilots learn to handle gusty crosswinds.an unexpected wake or a floating log Again, not something you personally experience regularly, but the same risks that a float-plane pilot makes every time he picks a landing site. Except that I'd guess that the stunt pilots review their choice of water very carefully first....

FFF
---------------

[Flying Lawyer]

speedpig

Yes - links below.

When people suggested the pics were or might be fake, I decided to do some digging. (Sponsor's name in Google.)

The photographer's site has a sequence of pictures showing approach, 'water-skiing' and climbing away.
Here's the link: www.aviationdimension.com (http://www.aviationdimension.com/)
You need to register to see the pictures but it's free.
Early morning anglers are treated to the spectacle of four T6 Harvard Aircraft from The Flying Lions Aerobatic Team waterskiing across the Klipdrift Dam near Johannesburg South Africa.
Lead by Scully Levin, with wingman Arnie Meneghelli, Stewart Lithgow and Ellis Levin, this renown airshow display team rehearse a sequence for the newly launched "Aviation Action" television program on Supersport.
Arnie Meneghelli from Academy Brushware, owner of the aircraft had this to say, "What we did today I believe is a world first. It illustrates that South African airshow pilots are amongst the best in the world".
This unusual act, approved by the South African Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), and supported by Castrol Aviation, was meticulously planned and took place under the watchfull eye of divers and paramedics that were on site.


I e-mailed the team to ask for details and they gave me date and place of the flight.
Link to the team's website: Flying Lions (http://www.flyinglions.co.za/team_in_action.htm)
Some good tight formation shots at the moment, but they said they'll have some pics of the event on their site in a couple of weeks.

I suppose it's possible it's a spoof involving quite a few people, but I don't think it is.
I wouldn't try it myself, even as a former Harvard owner, because I haven't got the necessary skill, but I've been lucky to fly with several pilots in various parts of the world over the years whom I have no doubt could do it.


Tudor

[ShyTorque]

It should be borne in mind that the aircraft is actually flying so only a tiny proportion of its weight actually is being put on the surface of the water.

Presumably the wheels are best kept locked so that the relative "aquaplaning speed" of 9 x Root P is maintained. If I recall correctly from my RAF training, I was told that said magic figure was calculated for a non-rotating tyre, as if it had just touched the surface. I also recall being told that official aquaplaning trials were carried out on a flooded runway after a "scalded" tyres phenomenon was discovered on large aircraft (V bombers?) with a fast touchdown speed.

However, some flyers have been doing this, even landing and taking off like this for years..........

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/shytorque/swanoff.jpg

The Harvard photos have reminded me that thirty years ago there used to be a male (cob) Mute Swan on the river where I grew up. At the weekend, when he had an audience, he used to get airborne from the water and then he would fly repeated ultra low passes, clapping his feet very loudly on the water for a hundred yards at a time. He was quite famous in the local area and people used to bring their children just to see him.

However, he used to be very aggressive to boaters. When his mate was nesting on a small island close to the boating jetty, he actually launched full frontal attacks on rowers, resulting in a few boats going over and a written notice being put up to warn people of the danger! We learned very quickly how far away we had to be to be safe from his beak and wings :eek:

[GotTheTshirt]

I seem to remeber a guy in a Lycoming Chipmunk doing a similar stunt

[DubTrub]

Shy Torque Your photo shows a departure...in that the powered trailing link undercarriage is working merry wizardry to provide propulsion prior to the thrust of the wings taking over. But a lovely photo, nonetheless.
I knew a bloke once who had a Quickie on floats (!). At rest, the outer third of the prop blades were in the water, so upon start-up, the whole machine disappeared into a spray until it got on the step. Inital acceleration was brisk, but after it got on the step, the prop emerged from the water and acceleration from then was somewhat subdued, but it did fly! Required a new prop for each flight, of course.
Upon landing, your swan would have the undercarriage forwardly swept to cushion the landing a la ski (to prevent "digging in" as per the Harvards?).

[Chimbu chuckles]

Or maybe said swan just hit something and is about to flip over...nice piccy...bloody funny piccy if you imagine he/she is landing:}

[Tiger Bob]

Sorry to burst the bubble, or is it surface tension on this but I think this is a good bit of photoshop magic.
Tarnished
Not so - there is video footage as well that will be hitting the TV soon

[LowNSlow]

I thought it was genuine as I saw a picture in pre-PhotoShop days of a crop sprayer Piper Pawnee splashing a wheel in a Dutch canal to give the same effect as somebody skimming stones.

[ShyTorque]

"Shy Torque Your photo shows a departure..."

Yes, I know, Dubs, but I couldn't find a decent landing swan photo.

BTW, an attacking swan also looks like that; trust me I've seen it from just above water level in a rowing boat, during a broadside attack! :uhoh:

When showing off (or attacking), they also "run" across the water.

[AlanM]

DEFINITELY real - taken by a friend of mine called Frans Dely (who formed Avaiation Dimension).

He is possible one of the best aviation photographers on the planet.... and we can now see why!

There is no way he would risk his great name by pulling a fast one.

[SixDelta]

Faked, but faked very well.

Why? Where's the surface disturbance from the props?

[Tim Inder]

Faked, but faked very well.
Why? Where's the surface disturbance from the props?
There won't be any as the prop slipstream converges behind the prop...

[AlanM]

More for the non-believers......

See http://www.aviation-dimension.com

You can register for free and see some of the best aviation pictures ever!

And a view from the riverbank.........

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/57062481.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/57062483.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/57062484.jpg

how much proof do you need?!?!?!? :)

[ShyTorque]

Alan, Perhaps one of them should have ditched, or at least dinged the prop? :E

[Milt]

They are well above their aquaplaning speed.

But hit a wave and off comes the gear.

[nugpot]

From here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212568&page=3

A picture is worth a thousand words, ...
... but at 25fps, this video is worth 3 200 000!

For the unfortunate souls who either don't have access to DStv, or those who missed it, here http://www.flightzone.co.za/media/harvards.wmv an edited version of the insert broadcast on SuperSport's "Aviation Action"

(The clip has been edited down to 2 minutes, from its original 15 minutes, so basically all the commentary has been edited out.)

Copyright
Video: Supersport & Blue Sky Productions
Audio: FreePlayMusic

For all the non-believers. :)

[Sleeve Wing]

C'mon, guys.
I know it looks pretty calm but, I mean, ALL of them in contact ALL of the time ??
:sad: :rolleyes:

Kee-ryste! I thought I'd seen some spectacular flying but that is awesome.

Only too pleased to change my opinion.
I would never have believed it could be done in close formation.
Brilliant !
Sleeve.

[SixDelta]

Yeah, fair enough. That's kinda cool :D

[EGCC4284]

http://www.koreus.com/media/avion-roule-sur-eau.html

[alvin-sfc]

Eureka!!!! the answer is staring us all in the face. They are taking off in formation over a very large 1 inch deep puddle.:eek:

[corsair]

I must say when I saw the photos, I thought 'absolute fake'. But they're real. Incredible. I thought I'd seen it all in aviation terms but this is something I never even considered or heard of. But there you go. You really do learn something new every day.

[MarcJF]

Looks to good to be true, all in the same position over the water, all at the same time! That would be accurate flying.

[Max Shutterspeed]

This looks like a really dumb thing to be doing. Is it really as dangerous as it looks?

YouTube - T6 Waterskiing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeeAI1wTMiA)

I'm sure it's been discussed before.

Waterskiing Harvards.

Regards,

Neill Watson

[HAL-26]

NTSB Identification: SEA06FA168
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, August 27, 2006 in Owyhee, OR
Aircraft: Aviat A-1B, registration: N94HY
Injuries: 1 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On August 27, 2006, about 1326 Pacific daylight time, an Aviat Aircraft, Inc, Husky A-1B, N94HY, sustained substantial damage subsequent to a nose-over while landing at the Owyhee State Reservoir Airport (28U), Owyhee, Oregon. The airplane was registered to the pilot and was being operated as a personal cross-country flight under the provisions of Title 14, CFR Part 91, when the accident occurred. The private pilot, the sole occupant of the airplane, was not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight that originated from Ontario, Oregon, approximately 1 hour prior to the accident.

In a written report submitted to the National Transportation Safety Board on September 6, the pilot stated he completed 3-4 water ski runs (a maneuver that is accomplished by setting the aircraft's parking brake, touching down on the water, and skiing on the main landing gear tires) and was proceeding to the airport for a full-stop landing. The pilot stated the airplane touched down (wheel landing at approximately 43 mph) on the dirt runway and immediately started to skid. The aircraft continued to skid and eventually nosed-over. The aircraft came to rest inverted on the dirt/sod runway.

Following the nose-over, the pilot discovered that he had inadvertently landed with the parking brake set.

:D

[Max Shutterspeed]

Bugger......

NW

[sir.pratt]

it's not that long ago were were debating the point of doing a BUMPFPL check on downwind......

[On-MarkBob]

I used to fly a Gumman G164 Agcat. We would sometimes bounce the aircraft off a river. As the wheels struck the water the aircraft would just bounce off, so it was nothing as skilled as these guys. I never put the brakes on, never thought about it. It was a fairly firm feeling I seem to remember, the logic was that water at speed was like hitting a solid surface. Crop spraying was a low down job anyway (in more ways than one) but like skimming a stone, get the angle right and it's OK get it wrong, BIG trouble. I wouldn't do it again, I was young and impressionable in those days, and I wouldn't recommend anyone to try it unless you have a good many hours crop dusting and you know your aircraft very well indeed!

[Baboon Boy]

Do the wheels actually have to be in contact with the water to produce spray, or would the aerodynamic effect of them being a few cms above the surface create the spray?

I reckon the latter.

[rudestuff]

It all seems quite plausible to me - if man can barefoot waterski, why cant a plane? as for all doing it at the same time - and of course I speak with no authority whatsoever - I'd have thought that once you get the wheels down (carefully) - you'll feel resistance and it shouldn't be much different than holding the tail up on a runway - or flying the length of the runway with one wheel on the ground - as no doubt most of us here have practiced - so it's not really any great feat to have lots of a/c doing it together.

Respect

[Cacophonix]

VGHQ1pYXsHo

[Flyingmac]

A certain magazine contributor used to do this for fun on locust spraying jobs. (Don't worry, I won't tell).

[CanAmdelta1]

Sure comes in handy when landing fly fisherman on that 100' gravel bar preceded by 200' of skinny water I suppose.:D

[Tasslehoff]

Proudly South African!:D

[mostlylurking]

In my days of flying gliders this was a regular stunt at the club.

There was dam parallel with the runway, some of the guys used to ‘wash’ the wheel on the downwind leg before landing.
Had to be done at high speed (probably around 160 - 180 kph) otherwise you wouldn’t clear the trees at the end of the dam, or complete the turn to land for that matter.

It always surprised me how little speed they lost.

Interestingly, it was done without using the wheel brake – that would have been unwise :- the wheel & air brakes are on the same lever.