Job Prospects Of Recent CCAT Graduates.

[chuckerofspears]

I am 29 years old and am currently serving in the Army (not Army Air Corps). Am considering jacking it all in and starting at Cabair in Nov on an integrated course. I have passed the assessment day and have an offer of a place pending medical, which I am doing next month.

Before I commit though I am interested in the views of recent CCAT graduates (last 2 years) about their job prospects. How employable do you think you are having completed the course? What have your experiences been? Are you all working or do you have a space under Waterloo Bridge?

I have read a lot of posts on this site about the state of the industry and how good or bad things are and there are a lot of people who will tell you that things are 'on the up'. I don't need to be told that there are 'no guarantees' as I already understand the risk. Just want to hear from some guys and girls who have actually done what I am considering doing.
Thanks very much.

[Fancy Navigator]

I cannot say if CCAT graduates have a better treatment in the industry, but bear in mind that with 200 hours, your chances to get a job are very very thin....
All companies are at least asking for 500-1000 hours with possibly a type rating.
A catch 22 situation really....
FNav :ouch:

[Send Clowns]

All companies are at least asking for 500-1000 hours with possibly a type rating.Sorry to be harsh, but that is complete bollocks. 500-1000 hours (after training by a modular route) would give you a very good chance of a job at the moment, if you have any personality; a type rating can help, especially a turbo-prop. From my extensive friendships with army officers, I would expect that not to be a problem for our spear-chucking friend, especially using a name like that, typical army. There are also jobs around for low-hour pilots, especially if they are willing to take on a bond or equivalent for a type rating, or to work at some real flying (instructing, meat bombing, photographic etc) before some mythical idyll of the airlines. The people I know who are willing to really work at it all seem to be either flying professionally or getting good leads to flying jobs, and nearly there.

I would however suggest that anyone contemplating paying for their own training would do a search on the Professional Training forum to find out about integrated / modular, as I would argue strongly that integrated training is unsuitable for self-sponsored students.

[Sphinx]

I would say your chances of a first job are slightly improved by going to CCAT. Most companies seem to prefer CCAT or OAT graduates even though all students end up with the same CAA approved qualifications - a load of old b**ls that shouldn't happen, but a fact.

There are companies that will recruit 200 - 250 hours people straight out of training schools. Mainly turboprop opertors like Flybe, BA Citiexpress, Eastern Airways, Scotair. And graduating out of CCAT with good passes will give you a slightly better chance than those using less well-known schools. With a disciplined military background you will be attractive to these employers compared with some "less mature" graduates.

I gave up a good career and took the plunge 5 years ago (also 29 yrs old then) and got a TP job with 230hrs having done a modular course. And the job market is better now than then, so there is hope despite what F-Nav says.

[chuckerofspears]

Thanks very much for the posts.

Decided to go to CCAT as opposed to OAT as I felt that it was a much more personal organisation and they took the time to find out a little bit about me and what I wanted as opposed to assuming that I would just go (Oxford's view I feel) based on their reputation and much hyped success rate. But don't want to start that debate here as I am conscious that it has been done to death elsewhere on this site.

Have given a lot of thought to the Integrated/Modular option and believe that Integrated is probably for me as I want to get flying and hopefully get employment as soon as possible. Why do you think that Integrated is such a poor option Send Clowns? Thanks for the encouragement though. Am prepared to work anywhere and fly pretty much anything as you suggest to get my hours up.

[Send Clowns]

It makes no more than a couple of weeks difference to the minimum time to qualification!

The reasons I think it is such a poor option are numerous, but centre around cost and experience. You will come out of an modular course with an extra £12k+ and an extra 50 hours+. In addition you have held a PPL, and built hours while competent to sign a tech log yourself - you don't need any other authority to fly! You have true captaincy. The integrated course can limit your job opportunities because you lack the independent experience.

The reason I say there is a job for a 500-1000 hour pilot from a modular training is that some employers in light charter (I have only been in the business a short time, so I don't know how prevalent this is, but the reasons apply across the board) will not touch integrated graduates. They think that the course is far too geared to producing an airline FO, rather than a pilot first, so the FO can develop in MCC/type rating/line training. All the training is closely supervised, so they are not expected to fly independently until they are captains on an airliner! There are jobs around at the moment in light charter. I could have had any one of 3, and I didn't spread my net very widely. You need a minimum of either 400 or 700 hours for single-crew, but that is achievable if you look to the cheaper courses then use the money saved to instruct, or seeing as you are prepared to fly anything. People I know have used paradropping, glider towing, sales demonstrations and delivery flights all to increase their hours.

Oh, and I love this job!

If you want the airlines then there is no net benefit to the integrated course. There would be a small benefit, as there are a few airlines who express a preference (although evidence suggests this is not a very strong preference, even for those that nominally demand only integrated; I know of modular graduates who joined FlyBe when they did). However the money saved by going modular could be used for training that would step you above an integrated graduate to many other airlines which employ far more low-hour pilots.

You could become an instructor, keep your flying skills up and many companies like instructors. You could take a jet orientation course, not only improving your CV but some of which directly feed airlines, others just would give you a huge advantage in those sim rides that are not too hard to get but are hard to pass (others are harder to get, but not so hard to pass!). You could even get a turbo-prop type rating. A friend bought an ATR type rating, and was then not only approached by an ATR operator (he now flies for) but also by a Dash 8 operator. Another acquaintance was given 2 days to pack his bags, because he had an ATR rating and someone suddenly needed rated pilots for a contract they had won at short notice. You could put the money towards one of the riskier schemes, like Astraeus's rating/line training, or a jet type rating though I would recommend caution and a lot of research in this. I do know someone who got into Ryanair by the Astraeus route.

So integrated has very little benefit I can see. Certainly the reason you give is just propoganda from the integrated schools - my modular course at SFT was nominally 2 weeks longer than Cabair's integrated. The benefits certainly do not justify the costs.

[Wazzoo]

Hey would probably say something similar to Sphinx. For better or worse there is some perception from some airlines that going integrated with OAT/CCAT/etc is better. And there is work out there if you are willing to go for it. It may mean you are on TPs for the first few years before getting a break into Jets but at least its work.

I'm looking at starting at Cabair in Sept/Nov. Out of interest, how quickly did they line you up with an assessment day once you contact them? Also, did they seem quite booked up on their courses? I'm not sure yet whether I would be able to start in Sept or Nov atm..won't be able to make a decision until the summer time. Do they want the deposit of you pretty quickly?

I also felt that bit more at home at Cabair than OAT, and I have the added bonus of only living 20 minutes away so save cost of moving to a new place and renting accomodation.

[Send Clowns]

there is some perception from some airlines that going integrated with OAT/CCAT/etc is betterMost companies seem to prefer CCAT or OAT graduates
(my emphasis)
Where did you find this out from, Wazzoo, Sphinx? Do you realise how many hundreds of potential employers there are out there? How few even express a preference, let alone the fewer who operate one practically? How few new graduates those few airlines take?

"It may mean you are on TPs for the first few years before getting a break into Jets..." is a very naive thing to say, suggesting that jets are the only thing out there. If that's your attitude then I suggest you save your money, find a lucrative job with cheaper training and more certainty: if you truly want to fly then you either wouldn't care (as spearchucker seems not to) or you would actually see jets as the final let down, when you have to get home on a regular basis and earn good money. Jet airliners are not the best flying out there! Ask any long-term jet pilot, I've worked with a few.

As I said in my last post I love my job! I earn about the same as a junior FO on a t'prop or small jet. I do interesting flying, including organ transport, and actually get to fly and captain my aircraft. This is real flying, why I left the oil industry, not programming an FMC for the Captain! It is brilliant!

[Sphinx]

Just some comments on integrated vs modular. I took modular courses, but planned them so I could complete everything in just over a year - a similar timescale to integrated students. The difference - I completed my professional licencences for about £50,000 INCLUDING living expenses as opposed to £60,000 for an integrated course with certain organisations WITHOUT living expenses.

All in all modular saved me about £15,000 I reckon and I still managed to get a job within 5 months of completing my IR. If you have a contingency - a sellable skill to rely on for food and bills while job-hunting - then why not save money and go modular. If you are the right person you will get a job with persistence eventually and save yourself a bundle in the meantime. Just some food for thought.

[Wazzoo]

I know I haven't helped as my post alluded to the whole integrated/modular debate but I would say lets avoid getting into the debate here since chuckerofspears wasn't really asking for that debate.

I will just qualify some of my answers so as not to appear so naive for you.

Where did you find this out from, Wazzoo? Do you realise how many hundreds of potential employers there are out there? How few even express a preference, let alone the fewer who operate one practically? How few new graduates those few airlines take?

I realise there are a huge number of employers out there (regional TPs, cargo TPs, instructors, paradropping, bush flying, aid flying, the list is endless), and also that jet pilots are in the minority. Sorry if I jumped the gun in dismissing them all in one go. However the reason for dismissing those was chuckerofspears situation in that he's approaching 30, looking to get into the industry as quickly as possible. He probably can't hang and pick up random jobs here and there building up the hours, and most likely wants to get into a semi-secure job that pays well soon.
With that in mind, he's probably limited to jet airlines and regional TPs. Of which some have expressed the prefference for integrated students. Certainly you can say that you're not gonna get one of those lots saying they won't take an integrated student where some do go as far as saying they won't take a modular student.


"It may mean you are on TPs for the first few years before getting a break into Jets..." is a very naive thing to say, suggesting that jets are the only thing out there. If that's your attitude then I suggest you save your money, find a lucrative job with cheaper training and more certainty: if you truly want to fly then you either wouldn't care (as spearchucker seems not to) or you would actually see jets as the final let down,

Again, see my coments above. Certain peoples situation restricts them from going off galivanting around the world picking up different jobs. Or even hopping from one small time TP to another. Jets arn't the only thing out there, and i know I have dismissed a lot of the industry with my comments but I know for myself that I have to rule out certain options. I don't have the luxury of being a single person able to go anywhere at a short notice and pick up anthing that comes up. I'm happy to admit that my end goal is jets and that I'll be looking at probably trying to pick up work with on TPs to begin with but soon move up.

As with so much with learning to fly, whether its a debate about degrees and education, integrated or modular, CCAT or OAT or another place nine times out of ten it will come down to your particular circumstances. There is no one size fits all answer. I only hoped to try and address chuckerofspears particular situation.

[Send Clowns]

Actually in my experiene it is the young guys that want to go straight into a jet. Most of the people I taught who were late twenties or older just wanted to fly; they ahd got bored of their old jobs, and this was a real passion for them.

[Wazzoo]

I am actually one of the young guys. But my situation is still my own and unique to me as is everyone elses. Some young guys will have more restricitons on their options than others, same with older guys.

Who knows, might have got it wrong. If chuckerofspears isn't looking for that elusive jet job and is happy to pootle round the skys doing different jobs then I would say Cabair and integrated was necessairly the best route!

I'll shush now...I have a habit of going on and on :\

[FlyingRat]

I would agree with the opinion that the Mod route is the best one.

I did an Intergrated course at CCAT and now wish I'd gone Mod. I'd have had approx £15,000 in my pocket which I clould now be using for, FIC, Type-rating or even some multi-hours building.

From what I've seen since I left doing a Mod course only precludes you from BA mainline and how many people actually get that!

The Mod guys also appear to have had to fight for themselves more and as a result have a better depth of knowledge.

[chuckerofspears]

Not quite sure what I want to do yet, but as the years roll on I suspect that I am probably going to want to chase that elusive jet job (if only to give me a chance of paying off the cost of training), although I appreciate that this probably won't happen immediately and I just want to get flying right now.

Any thoughts from anyone out there about whether CCAT put more effort in to placing their integrated grads (in an effort to boost success rates) and whether this is 'worth' the extra 15K? Do they tend to place people with the airlines fairly quickly?

Haven't really looked at the modular route as yet. Any advice on where to start and how to save cash? I have heard that the USA is cheap but the quality of instruction not so hot.... does this lead to problems later on when doing IR and MCC?

[scroggs]

Yawn! Integrated vs Modular vs Integrated vs Modular and over and over and over....


This thread is supposed to about jobs gained by graduates of Cabair. Get it back on track or lose it.

Scroggs

[duir]

Rumour has it that Logan took on 4 Cabair integrated cadets straight out of Flight School recently for the Saab Fleet. As you can imagine this has gone down like a lead balloon with FIs working in Scotland and trying to get into the company! :mad:

To answer the spear chuckers original question I guess that CCAT are getting bums on seats in airlines. A Saab 340 may not be the big shiny jet you hope for, but being spanked in Scotland doing the island routes for a few years will make you a very competent pilot.