Aero's in non aero a/c.

[cosworth211]

Purely a hypothetical thread.

I understand the g limits placed on both aerobatic and non aerobatic a/c by the manufacturers.

What happens if you attempt an aero maneouver in a non - aero certified a/c, that falls within the a/c g limits? Thinking of both twin and single piston.

[englishal]

I think there is more to it than that...for example CofG. You may be within the G limits but unable to recover from the maneouver due to CofG position. However, you could probably pull off barrel rolls and stuff like that in your bog standard Arrow, but I wouldn't like to try it.......

[FlyingForFun]

Didn't one of the test pilots roll an Airbus at a demonstration event a few years ago, and promptly get a large b0l1o$king from his boss??? I'm terrible at remembering things like this.....

To answer the question with some uneducated thoughts, though, starting with disclaimer: Don't do it!!!

Now we've got that out of the way, I would have thought than many low positive g manoevres could probably be done quite safely if everything goes correctly, but if things go pear-shaped I would put money on your chances of getting out of it in one piece. Also, bear in mind that the manual of aerobatic aircraft would generally include entry speeds for manoevres, but your non-aero aircraft won't have these, so you will be playing the roll of test-pilot not only in doing the manoevre itself, but also in finding out the "correct" (can't think of a better word) entry speeds - so the chances of things going wrong would probably be quite large.

As I said, though, those are uneducated thoughts that might well be wrong....

FFF
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[Laundryman]

I hadn't heard about a test pilot rolling an airbus but I have seen the video clip of the Boeing 707 that did a barrel roll on its maiden flight.

[FlyingForFun]

It may well be that that I'm thinking of then, Laundryman. :O

FFF
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[A and C]

You cant roll a fly by wire Airbus the flight control system won't let you do it.

[bar shaker]

Didn't one of the test pilots roll an Airbus at a demonstration event a few years ago, and promptly get a large b0l1o$king from his boss??? I'm terrible at remembering things like this.....
FFF
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Twas a 707. There footage on the web, somewhere. Most impressive and only a 1G maneouvre, the TP said.

[foxmoth]

You cant roll a fly by wire Airbus the flight control system won't let you do it.

I think you could, but you would probably need to put it in direct law - not something I would personally like to try!

As far as the origional ? goes, when I first started arrived at the flying flying club for my flying scholarship the instructors were all at the funeral of a member who had been doing aeros in a C150 (not an Aerobat) and had pulled the wings off - I think that answers the question fairly dramatically! As said by others, you will probably get away with it until a manouver goes wrong:eek:

[jabberwok]

And don't forget the PA31 over East Anglia that came apart after the pilot looped it.

Idiots try this from time to time thinking they are good. Some real idiots do it in club aircraft for which they ought to be hung. If they get into trouble they may be lucky and live not to tell the tale (I bet they aren't going to tell anyone that they've exceeded Vne or the G limit). They'll not have the faintest idea exactly what effect their playing will have had on the aircraft or the potential danger it may present to any future user of the aircraft.

Dangerous thoughts and a dangerous thread. If you seriously want an answer to this question ask someone who is qualified to give you the information.

[LowNSlow]

It was Tex Johnson, Boeing's Chief Pilot at the time who rolled the 707 over Seattle. Mr. Boeing told him that he was demonstrating an airliner not a fighter and please don't do it again as we only have one 707!

I've seen a video of a clown barrel rolling a PA-28 AT NIGHT!!!

[djpil]

a C150 (not an Aerobat) and had pulled the wings off - I think that answers the question fairly dramatically!
Can you point me to a report or date when it happened? Be useful to show one or two people.

[cosworth211]

Don't worry, I don't have any plans to do it, I have my AOPA certificate and access to an aerobatic aircraft. It was purely hypothetical. Thanks for the answers.

PS Anyone got a link to that 707 rolling? That sounds pretty impressive!

[BRL]

Here you go! (http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm)

[jeppsbore]

I was going to mention the 707 but got beaten to it, however there is a story that a prototype concorde was rolled by the french test pilot who the said to Brian Trubshaw sat next to him "now I have wound it up you must unwind it" so allegedly he did ! I also know of a enstrom/schweizer helicopter display pilot that would loop a hughes 500 saying that if the manouver maintains 1G then the helicopter wouldn't even know it was upside down. Fair comment if done correctly (and it allways was)

Jeppsbore

[cosworth211]

Awesome bit of footage! I don't know of anyone who has tried aero's in non-aerobatic certified a/c, though I do know pilots who have performed aero's in aerobatic a/c without any experience or training. I expect they'll meet their maker some time soon. :ugh:

[foxmoth]

Can you point me to a report or date when it happened? Be useful to show one or two people.

Not sure if you will find a report but it would have been June or July '74 from BOH.

[Tarq57]

I've been in a Cherokee doing an aileron roll, never felt stupid/brave enough to do it myself.
Standard G limits provide a pretty healthy buffer, thus you don't hear about inflight breakups that often. Much easier to exceed those limits doing silly stuff in a non-aero aircraft. Most are strong enough to handle it, for a while. Everyone thinks about wings folding, but other vulnerable areas can include engine mounts, any control hinges, and wing flex creating momentary abnormal "spot" loadings on a wing at high g/airspeed if coarse aileron isapplied. And this can occur at Va, if hamfisted enough.
Pull 3g going into a loop in a 140 (or whatever) hit a 2g patch of turbulence/windshear, presto. Way over the limits.(next month someone hires the aircraft, something goes ping!.....)
I've heard of aerobatic aircraft coming back with missing rivets!
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/torn-off-wings.wmv Partevia (graphic). The 707 roll is at this site, too.

[shortstripper]

though I do know pilots who have performed aero's in aerobatic a/c without any experience or training. I expect they'll meet their maker some time soon.

Well without trying to suggest it's a good idea ... it was the way it used to be done! However, teaching yourself aero's in a draggy old biplane and teaching yourself in a more modern aircraft are two different things. I suppose at some point the self teaching of certain manouvers becomes the only way, but that's when you get to unlimited standard and are trying to come up with something new. I taught myself loops in an old Slingsby Swallow glider, but it was a slow build up from simple wing overs, and I knew the said glider very well by the time I dared to loop .... I was also younger and even more stupid :}

The point is that now there really is no need to self teach as there are plenty of places to learn.

As for non aerobatic aircraft, just don't go there! G limits are one thing but also VNE can easily be exceeded causing flutter umungst other things.

SS

[Davidt]

If you go over to Flyer web board there's a discussion going on including a link showing the incredible Bob Hoover doing stopped engine Aeros in a twin.

I have a 1970's video of the same bloke doing fantastic aeros in a stock Commander 114.

Just goes to show what you can do if you know what your doing. I'm pleased to say that I dont so I wont!

[robin]

Looks like we are looking for candidates for the Darwin awards.

Put simply, Bob Hoover was a test pilot for many years and knew exactly what the structure of his Shrike was and what it would take.

Reading some of these posts makes me worry that people aren't using the POH, or if they are, are ignoring it.

Yes aircraft are safe to a level+'comfort zone', but don't assume you can go into that zone without consequences, unless, like Bob Hoover, you are a trained aircraft engineer and test pilot.

Still, I will happily read about these experiments of aeros in a Luton Minor on the Darwin Award website.

http://www.darwinawards.com

[foxmoth]

I suppose at some point the self teaching of certain manouvers becomes the only way, but that's when you get to unlimited standard and are trying to come up with something new.

When you get to this stage you should also be very well up on how to sort it out when it all goes wrong!:eek:

[n5296s]

There's a big difference between what CAN be done and what is a good idea. A ballistic aileron roll is *possible* in just about anything, since it is within 0.5-1.5G if performed correctly. I've been told that C130s roll very nicely (via a very experienced C130 pilot). Doesn't mean it's a good idea though and I'm not about to try it in my 182 (even though I've been told that 182s roll nicely too).

In *theory* you can loop any normal category airplane without the wings coming off - you need 3G for a loop and normal category is good for 3.8G. However it is *very* easy to pull just a teeny bit harder than you should. Add to that non-acro aircraft don't generally have G meters, and don't even think about what happens if you hit some turbulence.

In the US, at least, it's against the regs to do acro in a non-acro aircraft. The legal way round it (which I assume is what Bob Hoover did) is to reclassify the aircraft as experimental, whereupon you can do whatever you like (legally, not prudently).

All in all, possible if you know what you're doing, but definitely not a good idea.

n5296s