First time passes - how important for that first job?

[fatboyslimfast]

Hey all

whats your opinion?

During my atpls, i only dropped P of F, but got it on the second atempt.

Im starting my hourbuilding, and comm training in a couple of weeks, and if i get first time passes on my cpl and IR, how will that exam re-sit effect me?

Ive been told, which is quite scary, that it is super critical not to fail any subjects, or you get binned during any airline application. Im sure that my exam re-sit wont matter once i have a 737 rating with 500 hours on type.

At the same time, how important is the difference between a first time, or first series pass on the cpl and IR.

Interested to hear from any pilots, especially in airlines, that had the same opinion or fears. How did it work out for you? Did it matter having only 1 missed exam

[scroggs]

Most airlines are only concerned that you have the licence, not your marks or resits. If your ATPL history is littered with resits and skills test failures, you might want to think about whether you're in the right field, but an odd dropped subject is not a disaster.

Scroggs

[GusHoneybun]

FBSF,

Here's what you do. Go to the kitchen, make a cup of tea, sit down, take nice deep breaths and relax!!!.

No airline in the world gives a flying fig whether you failed the odd exam in your ATPL studies. And whilst we are on the subject, they also don't care what your average is either! All you have demonstrated is the ability to learn great volumes of useless ****e for the exams.

As to first time passes being required for a job, again utter toilet. Of all the working pilots i know (which numbers quite a few), i can only think of two examples of first time passes in everything. When I was interviewed they spent some time discussing my partial in the CPL. In the end, it turned out to be a positive point in the interveiw about how I learnt from my mistakes and in future blah blah blah.
However, don't adopt a lazy, slip shod, attitude towards flight training. I think it's harder to do a resit than the initial test and I would love to have passed everything first time. If only for the money it saves.

[Addy]

as long as you have the money to buy your own TR with the company + hours on type it doesn't matter how many exams you fail

[A320rider]

i have passed pof first time, but missed 2 or 3 on the 14.do you feel better?
I still dont have a job, but view english is not my first language, who can blame me specially when I know brits guys who failed 6-7 exams.
I would not bother, I know only 1 guy who pass all his exams first attempt.(he is still unemployed)
and i know one who failed all exams and are now employed (by dady)

[Dude~]

A320rider, you don't know enough people. Most of the pilots I know got all 14 exams first time.

fatboyslimfast, don't worry about it. Sure, some companies might ask but most will never ask about theory exam passes. When you start applying for jobs you will see that very few application forms request theory exam details, and only one or two ask whether you passed the CPL and IR first time.

[RED WINGS]

Failed 3 ATPL exams got em all 2nd go, passed cpl and ir first go, flying job 5 months after completion and did not have to pay for a type rating either.

I think if anything airlines look more at your flying rather than the ground school, I guess for the same reason I am yet to discover or use a large portion of what I studied in the ATPL.

From your post I am guessing you are a modular student at Oxford, as that is what they said to most of us and was usually the reason they would not put you through to any airlines! Things I would like to hope have changed over the last few years, but dont worry work hard do your best you will get where you want to be if you stay focussed and determined.

It can sometimes seem like a very long road but keep going, good luck and we hope to see you on the line someday soon.

[Send Clowns]

Of all the students I taught in groundschool the one who has done the best in his career (in most people's terms - he flew jets from the start and has moved to a better airline very quickly. Not my favoured career, but he is happy) failed one subject 6 times, almost losing all his other passes for a second time around. The other who arguably did as well (first job 747F, although he was FE for a while) he failed a few papers too.

A certain well-known airline recruiter once pointed out to me that most people who make the decisions are pilots, and all pilots hate groundschool!

[Sphinx]

Got all my groundschool exams first time.....HOWEVER got partial passes in both my CPL and IR tests first time and completed the failed bits on the second flights in each case. I got a good TP job for 2 years and then my first jet job.

SO........I don't know for sure but I would guess airlines would regard a 1st time IR pass as the most "impressive" qualification for a low hours person followed by 1st time CPL pass, THEN groundschool exams. In short I would say as long as you don't need to continually repeat each element of the training most airlines will consider you with other low hours people. No problem in failing P of F one time I would say.

[fatboyslimfast]

Cheers guys, you have really helped settle my nerves, hopefully i can first time passes in my CPL and IR. Failing that, are there any single female airline opps recruitment personel out there who fancy a date? I promise that i wouldnt just use our relationship to make it easier for me to get my first job. (well only to begin with)

[potatowings]

I failed more exams than that and have been through several airline selections - NONE OF WHICH I FAILED, and most of which I turned down.

As long as you have your licence the airline doesn't give a toss if you failed a couple of exams or even your skills tests!!!

[High Wing Drifter]

Just to support the other opinions, my ancedotal evidence based on the people I have studied with, about 60% pass the ATPLs first time. My other anecdotal observation is that this seems to have absolutely no effect on whether people get selected for interviews or not.

[Minimalist]

I know one guy who had to re-do every flying test he ever sat.. apart from the IR, and he's in the right hand seat of a 737. I passed everything except the IR, which I failed spectacularly the first time, and am also in the right hand seat of a 737. It took me a month to get the job after finishing.

One ground school exam..? I wouldn't spend a second worrying about it.

[Baseturn]

The airlines are looking more at the person than the licence. The world is changing and there is more emphasis on CRM and you will find more and more airlines adopting the BA Assessment style to find more about you on various levels.

You are more likely to get asked a number of HR quesions that will cover your experiences in training and employers seem more interested in how you dealt with personal problems and setbacks.

A percentage of people, usually those who have failed these types of interviews are bitter and struggle to see the sense in this style of assessment but it is the way the airlines are going.

Always study hard for your exams and flying licences but i would not dwell too much on any failures and treat it more as experience. To be honest i would rather fly with someone who has delt with failure that with someone who has never had it!!!

[Pilot259]

I'm currently completing an integrated course but required second attempts at two of the subjects in the groundschool syllabus. I've now passed them all and am sitting on a 91% average, however, can anyone advise as to the likely attitudes of potential employers to candidates who have required a couple of re-takes?

[ramon76]

CTC requieres first time passes un flight skill tests...... for they Wings ATP programmes....

[GoldenMonkey]

ramon76 CTC requieres first time passes un flight skill tests...... for they Wings ATP programmes....
Actually, speaking from personal experience, that is not entirely true.
CTC/airlines are looking for people with high standards and ability. And when you have little experience, the evidence for which could be extrapolated from passes in your studies and tests. They are also aware that we are all human and will have bad days as well as good. And when confronted with those bad days, they want to see evidence of grit and determination to pull yourself together, learn from the experience and improve. Also to see that blips in your own performance don't drag your spirits down (in simple terms that you 'get over it' ! ! !).
So, if you have a handfull of blemishes on your record, be prepared to discuss what went wrong and, more importantly, what you took from the situation to ensure you don't make the same mistake(s) again.

[buzzc152]

Ahhhh, words of wisdom from Golden Monkey. Listen to him for he is wise and knowlegable........... and flies a 737 via CTC. Andy, did you manage to wow anyone with my CV ??

[Jinkster]

A friend of mine completely buggered up all his ATPLs and had to sim them all again...

He is now flying for a charter airline out of a London airport :ok:

[endofeng]

Think it all depends on the airline. For instance Flybe were employing people straight into training without sim check if you achieved 1st time pass IR. If not, off to the sim you went!

It is more important to get 1st time passes for your 1st job, most Airlines aren't really bothered what you got, what your previous life was before flying if you have several thousand hours on type. All they want at the moment is the hours, and of course some kind of competancy.

So, albeit great to get 1st time passes in everything, the reality is most don't, and Airlines know this. But it does help in the odd case!

Good luck!

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endofeng:ok:

[special]

how will the airline/interviewers know if you passed first time or not? do they check?

[Flypiggy]

Absolute donkey d*ck! I went for my first airline interview feeling exactly the same as you! "oh I got a partial pass in the cpl and dropped a groundschool exam... There was me.. "what will they think!!??..... im a failure!"....... They didn't even ask! I passed the verbal and numerical reasoning and got through the sim and now i fly scarebusses and its a piece of p1ss compared to initial flight training I promise!

good luck soldier!

[Signor Frog]

Dear All

To all those who have been through the 'Mill' integrated' or 'Mod', as a PPL and wanabee CPL (I think), what is the drop off/failure rate during flight training? I hear of amazing ground school pass rates, but what about at the business end?


Cheers

S.F

[endofeng]

DART,

Quote"Some airlines want medium(or even bad) copilots, they are not looking for the guy who will ask for a captain position in 1 year or will move to a biger airline to fly a 767 or a 777"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

RUBBISH!

NO AIRLINE wants a BAD co-pilot. If you have struggled to get a job in the past, maybe it's your self confessed brilliance that is letting you down!

There has never been a better time to get an aviation job, and yes airlines are having to lower their requirements, but I can assure you SAFETY is NEVER compromised! I know of several First Officers whom have been chopped recently from a very well known operator at the Line Training stage after a great deal of investment because they were not upto scratch. These so called "bad" co-pilots' are not what Airlines are looking for!

If you are so good, I can not believe you haven't got a job yourself if all these bad co-pilots are being succesful!

Good Luck, I think you'll need it!

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endofeng:ok:

[dartagnan]

hello endofeng,

I don't need luck, I need money!:)



I am not british and I do not live in UK, and I can assure you many guys in Europe are looking for a job.The situation is not so pink as some person can let you think, you just have to look at the number of people here on this forum who have a hard time to find a flying job.Have you look for a flying job yet?

This week I have received 3 negative answer from airlines(not even an invitation for an interview and I passed all my exams first time but one said they were taking guys with t/r on the 737 ), and I can guaranty you some airlines are not looking for futur captains but for medium copilots only, because a bad/medium/total failure pilot will stay longer...and if you have barely 200h, you have more chance than me, specially if you have deep pocket for a type rating+line training+work for free!!!!.

I know copilots who haven't been accepted for the upgrade course as a captain, because be a captain is an attitude, not just a job.You have some people when things go wrong prefer to wait on somebody else to fix the problem ;and as salaries these days are lower and lower , any medium or bad pilot will be a perfect copilot.

You don't have to be good or bad to get a job, it is just a question of who you know and how much money you are ready to spend!but again, each airlines have their own criteria(based on age, sex, race, and background...), and some say at 35yo or more, you are unable to learn and then they hire guys who failed their IR 3 times simply because they are 25 yo, white british skin ,and daddy has money...

Airlines don't want bad pilots I agree, but airlines take anybody (bad or good) based on other criterias which are financialy good for them.

first time pass has one big advantage, it is cheaper!...that's all.

[SinBin]

Dart, you don't half remind me of someone

Spaceman1000, A320rider?

You talk complete and utter crap, airlines recruit people who can operate their aircraft in a professional, and safe manner, they sometimes care about whether you get first time passes and sometimes don't. People like you don't get jobs in anything let alone flying, it's the same as any other professional job hunt!!

Maybe you just need a good woman!!!

[endofeng]

Sin, couldn't agree more!

DART,

I have a job, and unlike what you perceive as being the norm for guys straight out of training, my daddy didn't pay for me! I left my Integrated training (Which I paid for myself by selling my house/home to fund it) with first time passes in most of my training, with the odd hick-up here and there, and managed to get a job straight away with a well known TP operator whom I didn't need to pay copious amounts of money to for my type rating. I believe they employed me on the strength of my Interview, not how much money I had in my pocket (which was none), and I can assure you most of my friends were in the same position, and most have succeeded!

I firmly believe that your comments on medium/bad co-pilots being preferred to good ambitious pilots is absolute BOLL*CK*! Never heard such drivel, and to pull the UK white skin card is also CRA*. You clearly have a bee in your bonnet with regards to not yet finding a job, perhaps if you spent as much effort in an Interview as you do with your pathetic arguments on here you may have some luck!

Enough already!

Good Luck

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endofeng:ok:

[BUS319]

Airlines don't want bad pilots I agree, but airlines take anybody (bad or good) based on other criterias which are financialy good for them.

Dart

As I read your post I couldnt help but laugh. To suggest an airline would select a "Bad" pilot as they could save money is absurd. Saftey and the quality of the crew is always the number one priority.
I think endofeng is right in that you have a bee in your bonnet about something. Until you change your attitude job hunting is only going to get harder!

[badboy raggamuffin]

Hi all,
Just wondering if any one out there has any idea of what the implications might be of failing ones CPL ot IR skills test first time round with respect to job prospects? Obviously it is preferable to pass everything first time, however does having a fail on your record doom you to the scrap heap?

Has anyone out there landed a nice airline job with a fail on your record?
If so, did you get it wit low hours (200 ish) or did you do something else, such as instructing, to "cancel it out" as it were?
Also, what is CTCs view on the matter? Has anyone got onto the ATP Wings scheme having failed a CPL/ IR test first time round?

Cheers for any replies,

Badboy.

[dartagnan]

I know some pilots who got a partial for their IR, and now fly jet.

don't worry to much!

[Earthmover]

About 14000 hours, 5 management posts, TRE etc etc..... Failed the NDB on my IR, failed hydraulics on my first tech exam. Didn't make a jot of difference.

Interviewed literally hundreds of pilots over the years and the only thing that makes me sit up with an arched eyebrow is multiple attempts at an exam/test.

As the previous poster said:

"Don't worry too much"

[IRRenewal]

Just about to start in my 4th job in commercial aviation.

I have never been asked about first time passes, nor have I ever been asked a question about marks for ground exams or whether I did modular or integrated.

It just doesn't seem to be an issue.

HTH

Gerard

[littco]

[QUOTE=badboy raggamuffin;2946034]
Also, what is CTCs view on the matter? Has anyone got onto the ATP Wings scheme having failed a CPL/ IR test first time round?
QUOTE]

I believe CTC require you to have first series passes to qualify.

[kissmysquirrel]

Failed one particular test and was told by the then future employer, do the test again! Then i got the job on passing.

A prospective employer will hardly ever ask how many times it took. What does it matter. Ticks in the boxes are what count.

[heebeegb]

Just ticks in boxes gang. No-one will ask.

[Stratman]

It is preferable to pass everything first time because it is far cheaper and less time consuming , as far as most employers that I am aware of are concerned this has little relavance, they generally don`t ask. If you want to slip the `first time pass` in during an interview it won`t do any harm as far as flight tests go. It just depends on who is interviewing you and what they consider important. If the pilot member of the panel passed his/her flight tests first time they will be proud of that fact and it may have some import, if they didn`t then they won`t care. Most people could not give a stuff about the exams, these are widely regarded as a necessary evil, anyone that passes those first time `Hats off to you` perhaps you should get out more.
Thus far I have not been asked by a hire-car company how many attempts I had at my driving test , they always ask to see my licence though, as will a member of your interviewing panel, together with you log book so they can check and verify all those flight times in there?
Seriously now, don`t let it worry you.

[jessie05]

Quite reassuring to learn that the potential interview process is not specifically designed to trip you up!

Feeling much better now!!

jessie

[nuclear weapon]

70% of guys I personally know that are currently flying jets partialled thier IR and some cpl. Three got through ctc with partial passes in IR.

[plumponpies]

Partial pass in both CPL and IR. Somehow able to fly 737's though!:eek:

[Jinkster]

If someone fails a test - why should they be criticised for the rest of there lives!!!!

Does it mean if you failed your IR test in the 1960's then your still a dreadful pilot and are unable to be a training captain in later life........i dont think so!!!!!

[RightSeat]

Look,

I agree with many above !! When I took my ATPL teori tests they told me that airlines will ask for the results on the interview...hahahahah !! Yeah right!

I have been flying for some odd 10 years and currently on the A330, and throughout my interviews and job hunting (earlier) they only ask for licence, medical and a short history of employment or whatever you have been doing for the last 5 years.

Many freinds have failed many tests and they have jobs today (never asked them either!)

Good luck and stay calm !:cool: