Owning/sharing an ex-mil jet?

[Confabulous]

Out of sheer fun, and hang the cost, I've been wondering about the costs of owning, running and maintaining an ex-mil jet like the Fouga Magister or L39C (big difference I know). I'm in the middle of my PPL at the moment, I know it's mere speculation and there would be insurance and/or hangarage issues, but has anyone ever owned or had a share in one? It's not exactly a logical choice, but it will be be fun!

Nial

[2Donkeys]

I have shares in 2. PM me if you want more detail.

Generally speaking, the costs of acquisition are relatively low. Depending on type, even parts costs can be reasonable. The increasingly painful feature is the cost of fuel. A reasonable-sized mil-jet can easily chomp it's way through £400-500 an hour in fuel.

Still interested?

[18greens]

They have to be the best bargain you can get. A Hunter is cheaper than a new PA28, shares in jets are available for as little as £4000. The spare parts are cheaper ( a viper engine runs in at £7,000 instead of £20,000 for a new continental).

Sure fuel is a bit more expensive but you are going a lot faster in something fully aerobatic. Just ask yourself the question, 1 hour in a jet or 5 hours in a PA28 (yawn). Which would you choose?

You don't even need a PPL to join if you are willing to fly dual all the time.

Do it and keep these beautiful historic aeroplanes flying.

[noisy]

How does it stand w.r.t. a PPL flying a jet? I understand that there is something called a jet dispensation, but don't know what is involved.

(Only vaguely interested due to horrifying cost.)

[boogie-nicey]

I am leaving a jet syndicate this month and can honestlyt say hand on my heart that it really is the reason why you gain your PPL in the first place!
Jet operations have a somewhat different approach than the piston engine counterparts and really allows you to take on the next chapter of your flying. Sure the fuel cost is quite high but you can always drag some buddy or another group member with and split the cost (50% flying 50% watch the scenery).

These syndicates are also very well run, administered and managed and the CAA really do keep an eye on them too so you know you're in the right group of aviators. There is alot to learn but one thing that you'll miss is probably the silly wannabe and pedantic attitude of instructors that you experienced at the local flying school who thought a cessna 152 has to be operated as a 767. That kind of thing gives way to real flying ability and very practical skills in a jet syndicate and yes you will be pushed to high standard.

The actual operation of a Jet is best done by a sole individual as the CAA expect you to act as an almost full maintenance company and are quite stringent on things.

Hope that helps.

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

are there any shares on offer for the L39 sitting in a hangar at North Weald?

[2Donkeys]

In a word, no.

[AerBabe]

I'd be very tempted if I could afford the fuel. Flying, for me, has never been about getting from A to B. It's always been about how I got from A to B. Or even from A back to A again.

D SQDRN 97th IOTC - One day we must get together when I'm well and not working! :O Have you flown recently? I haven't seen you for a while, but I've been using up leave.

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

Aerbabe

I've not been up since 22nd Jan, but do plan on being up at the field this weekend weather permitting if you fancy strapping yourself in to a live ejection seat! Are you going to be around?

2Donkeys
Shame about the L39. I get a little envious when I see Sycamore test flying it from time to time. :{

[AerBabe]

Thanks for the offer but, guess what ... I'm working. :ugh:

I haven't seen Sycamore for a while. The last time was around the end of October, when he was trying to give me flying tips for a broomstick. :rolleyes:

There are several nice jets parked up at NW that it would be nice to see fly more often. About once a year they seem to appear out of nowhere, bash around the circuit, and disappear again.

[airborne_artist]

Personally, as an ex-mil, I'd leave the flying of pointy jet-powered mil a/c to the mil. I'll admit to being biased, though, as my good mate Gary Clarke died pulling the black and yellow in an L39 at Duxford.

[NigelOnDraft]

I instruct in a JP syndicate at NW - see http://www.swordsaviation.co.uk/ for information.

As an ex-Mil pilot, the reservations expressed above have some validity. IMHO there is definately something to be said for sticking to a UK/RAF type, where the engineering, instruction, operation, SOPs and Manuals etc. are readily available and (ex-)RAF. All comes down to your sense of adventure / risk...

From a PPL to something like an L-39 / Hunter / Gnat I would suggest a basic ex-Mil jet first anyway - JP / L-29.

As also stated, costs are really fuel, fuel and fuel - so long as you actually fly. However, NB you get a lot more in time wise than your average PPL machine. From NW, to ~Felixstowe, with GH on the way / back, aeros there, 3 circuits back at NW is ~40 min. Somewhere with better airspace, even less...

HTH
NoD

[muffin]

Are there any syndicates in the Midlands?

[Davidt]

JP5 group at Blackpool
Strikemaster group forming at Hawarden
JP(?) group at Newcastle

Not exactly Midlands but!

Google jet provost and you'll get a ton of info

[Confabulous]

I heard something about the JP - 'constant thrust, variable noise' - does that describe it right? :}

Good point about checking out in a simpler jet first - I'd probably be overloaded by an L39 right after doing a PPL, although of course the JP is a complex aircraft anyway, through probably simpler then an Archer in terms of engine management and handling.

Wonder if there are any Fougas around - heard some good things about them

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

Confabulous

When you talk about complex aircraft which are ex-military on the civil register, the JP is not complex. Complex is the most complex of all categories, and requires manufacturer support to get on the register. The next category down is intermediate.......

In terms of piston aircraft, you may be thinking "complex" in terms of retractable undercarriage and wobbly prop. Simpler than an Archer in terms of engine handling and management ? Not in my opinion - but Nigel can probably give you a better view on that. Some issues to think about on an axial flow compressor are the time taken to spool up on short finals (engine management here being very important), and what to do if you get a compressor stall. (You'll feel the banging under your feet as the JPT starts rising.) You'll also need to think about hot starts, possible bird ingestion into the intakes, the different rates of fuel consumption with different RPMs set at different altitudes - for example the Viper can be twice as efficient in terms of lbs fuel burnt per knt travelled at 30,000 ft, than it is at sea level.

But all this is very manageable for the average PPL so long as he is properly trained / converted to type. A word of caution to you though - some of the insurance companies specify minimum hours before you'll get cover. I think 100 -125 hrs is the minimum for JPs. If you look at the delta web site, you'll see 300hrs P1 is their requirement to fly the Gnat.

I hope to see or hear of you flying these aircraft at some point in the future!

[crap pilot]

Davidt do you have any info on the JP at blackpool, like is it definatly a group or privatly owned, are they looking for any more members, costs or anything else that yoou can think of? i cant seem to find anything other than a picture.

[2Donkeys]

The insurance question is an interesting and timely one.

The one Lloyds syndicate, Ortac, that was underwriting the vast majority of ex-mil jets in the UK has closed its doors to that line of business now, and as each policy is coming up for renewal, owners are finding it very difficult to get cover at an acceptable price, if at all. Other syndicates are simply not interested in underwriting the risk.

This bodes very badly for PPLs with limited if any jet time getting into such syndicates in the future and suggests a possible glut of such aircraft on the market shortly.

2D

[kemblejet01]

There are shares available in JP, Gnat and Hunter at Kemble with Deltajets.

See www.deltajets.com for deets.

Training by ex RAF FJ QFIs - friendly bunch.

Chief Pilot is a rugged handsome chap!!

KMB01

[Confabulous]

This bodes very badly for PPLs with limited if any jet time getting into such syndicates in the future and suggests a possible glut of such aircraft on the market shortly.


Bah, I'll just head to the US or SA - plenty of jets to fly there if insurance is a problem here :E Alternatively, the FAA CPL/ATPL is always an option, or a TR on a conventional jet, then go ex-mil, simple enough, and worth the journey.

[pulse1]

Sure the fuel cost is quite high but you can always drag some buddy or another group member with and split the cost (50% flying 50% watch the scenery).


As far as "dragging some buddy" along to share the cost I was under the impression that all these aircraft were operated on a Permit to Fly. This meant that only members of the group could fly in them. Am I wrong?

Sadly I am at an age where I struggle to keep up with my PA28 now.

[Unusual Attitude]

Pulse1, one chap in the Newcastle JP syndicate certainly offers rides to willing punters in order to cost share. I did this last year at a cost of circa £200 for the hour, Mk3 not the quickest aircraft in the Galaxy but still sporty if your used to PA28's / C172's.

I'd be seriously interested in a share in an ex Mil jet if there was one based in Scotland as we have masses of uncontrolled airspace and amazing scenery to play in. The Newcastle group is however the nearest and a 4-5 hour drive each way is a bit far for me! If anyone is interested in setting up a group of such an aircraft in Scotland then please PM me.

[neilcharlton]

whats the fuel burn for these jets ?

jp mk3 - say £190 per hr .
jp mk 5 = 260 per hr
L29 - £350
L39 £450 - £550
Hunter Gant - £800-1000+ per hr

Is there much noticeable difference in flying the jpmk3 to 5 ?
Fast jet flying is the most interesting part of having a ppl if you ask me , shame about the cost of fuel ! http://www.area51aviation.co.uk/index.html have a couple of JP's at NW.

Whats happeneing with the RAF mk1 tucanos anybody know what they will be auctioned off at ? What would be the fuel burn on a turbo prop tucano ; i'd imagine they are A LOT of fun tho:-)

[2Donkeys]

Neil - those numbers for the JP are very badly out of date. Count on £350 p.h for the Jp3 and up to £450 p.h for the JP5.

As has been commented on before, actual numbers will vary somewhat based on altitude and flight-type. Sadly, they won't get close to the numbers you mention.

[neilcharlton]

damm oil price ! :mad:

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

Neil

I also think you are over the top with the Gnat. A JP5 burns about 750 litres of F34 per hour (on average). Gnat probably burns about 1000 - 1200 litres an hour. With the price of Jet into your tank at a little over 50p a litre, this will set you back at about £400 quid an hour for the JP5, and £700 quid for the Gnat.

Best person to ask on the Gnat (and the hunter too for that matter) would be the rugged handsome chap from delta jets, or maybe Mitten? You out there somewhere? ;)

[kemblejet01]

The insurance banter posted elsewhere is inaccurate in the case of Deltajets.

Because of the size of the fleet, we can insure one aircraft at a time, temporarily up the cover for airshows or busy weeks, then retrograde back to single cover.

The relationship with the insurance company is very good and they are very flexible.

The main limitation in the future will be engine life, probably in about a decade or so. Once engines are life expired, that's it and there are relatively few around.

My advice is to get your money out and come and fly. These things wont be around forever and you are a long time dead. Guaranteed grin for at least a month afterwards.

Ref going to the USA - I have it on good authority you wont even get a sniff at the controls (post 9/11 blah blah).

Ref JP3 v JP5 - anyone who thinks the performance is even remotely similar needs medical help!

nuff said

KMB 01

[Confabulous]

My advice is to get your money out and come and fly. These things wont be around forever and you are a long time dead. Guaranteed grin for at least a month afterwards.


Will do, finally some accurate information! See you there later in the year :cool: :ok: