Surviving Disasater BBC1 21/205 - Desert One

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Did anyone else see this? The whole operation was surrounded by controversy (as a quick internet search will reveal), but in the end Operation Eagle Claw failed due to helicopter problems. Needed a minimum of six to get the Delta team to Tehran, three of the eight was u/s, hence the mission was cancelled as five were not enough.

Frightening, particularly when you consider the US was not exactly short of helicopters. Unlike the UK today.

And what about the USAF guy(s) who did a reece of the landing site and planted beacons. They must have had nerves of steel.

Why do I have the feelings that lessons of the Desert One affair are lost on today's political leaders?

[SASless]

Keep reading there sport and you will see that the lessons learned in Iran have provided us the capability that we have today....a quantum leap over the Desert One disaster.

Hidden away is the real truth....the helicopter pilots were briefed immediately prior to takeoff....they were told President Carter's re-election success hinged purely upon the successful accomplishment of the mission. That determined the outcome.

You wish to talk about courage....read about Dick Meadows. His entire career could make several novels.

[Cool_Hand]

IF you read Delta Force by Charles Beckwith, it provides an excellent insight into this op. Granted some of the book is heavy to wade through but there are some genuinely interesting parts. It documents the birth and growth of Delta Force.

[Stafford]

I can't help thinking the world would be a better place if the operation had been successful ? Would have been cathartic to see the Iranian fanatics given a real good slapping down at the right time in history. Should have been properly thought out and resourced, but all, double underlined, all the team themselves had gonads like watermelons in my opinion.

Also saw amazing footage of the modfied C130 with RATO tear its wings off when the "brakes" were applied a tad early during testing ? Supposed to land on a sports ground in Central Tehran ? All quite vague but I'm an old fart now. Still impressed, despite the failure of a well intended op.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I thought the programme was dire.

They'd clearly interviewed on-camera a number of those involved, but rather than let me watch these guys tell the story in their own words, I sat cringing through dramatic reconstructions, over-acting and a script written by someone that clearly has no military experience (nor, presumably, did they take advice from someone with military experience). And don't get me started on the cut-scenes of the "USS Nimitz" that showed a helicopter assault ship, or the painting of an an RAF Chinook on the wall of one set... Shoddy stuff.

It was a wasted opportunity, IMHO. Still, the story itself is cracking.

[DaveW]

Also saw amazing footage of the modfied C130 with RATO tear its wings off when the "brakes" were applied a tad early during testing ? Supposed to land on a sports ground in Central Tehran ? All quite vague but I'm an old fart now.

That was "Credible Sport" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credible_Sport), a hell of a plan.

http://www.spectrumwd.com/c130/image2/c130_798.jpg

http://www.spectrumwd.com/c130/image2/c130_797.jpg

More info and pics here (http://home.earthlink.net/~quade/crediblesport.html), and report of a candid talk by the test pilot here (http://www.spectrumwd.com/c130/articles/Credible_Sport.htm). There's video of the accident available somewhere on the Net, too.

[Talking Radalt]

the painting of an an RAF Chinook on the wall of one set... Shoddy stuff.
Blimey! I'd best telll the boss we take down all the pictures and trophies WE'VE got of foreign Chinooks for fear of looking shoddy!
Although the exploits of those who took part (in the Op, not the program!) are beyond doubt, I did feel the summary whereby advances in technology such as NVG and rotary AAR were put down solely to the outcome of Eagle Claw was a tad optimistic. One quote was that NVGs are now a 1/4 of the weight and four times more powerful, but it was 25 years ago so who's to say those advances wouldn't have been made anyway?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Blimey! I'd best telll the boss we take down all the pictures and trophies WE'VE got of foreign Chinooks for fear of looking shoddy!

Erm. The dramatisation was set in late 1979. The RAF did not get its Chinooks until December 1980. I am assuming that you have Chinook stuff from operators that actually own the aircraft? Or do you have lots of artists' renditions of Chinooks in the markings of countries that don't yet have any of the aircraft? If the latter then suggest you follow own advice and remove them from display.

[exrotarybooty]

Missed the programme, but I was based at Masirah with SOAF when the Delta C130s staged through. We weren't allowed any contact with them, and they decided to leave during the night with no lights or comms.

We watched from ATC as one C130 began his take off run with another backtracking up the runway! Somehow they avoided a collision which would have ended the rescue mission there and then.

In the morning we had a look at the runway, and the tyre marks leading off the hard surface and onto hard packed sand. We came to the conclusion that the backtracking C130 swung off the runway when it realised what was happening, and it's wing had lifted allowing the other C130s wing to pass underneath it.

I guess they used up all their luck during that incident.

ERB

[Bof]

Had a lecture in the States a couple of years ago by Lt Col Guidry who was involved with Eagle Claw. Fantastic story of really enormous cock-up. Ultra over cautious use of radio silence at Desert One was partly to blame for the collision. Turned out that after the event the US had to inform the Iranians about the landing - they weren't even aware it had happened. On the exit C 130s were operating at TOWs way over the Max warload figure of 175K lbs.
Still I guess the RAF Ks were as well, during the Falklands punch up. Apparently when they left Masirah from the far side of the airfield some of the International Airadio guys who were with ATC left two cases of cold beer beside the taxiway with a placard " From us all to you all for having the guts to try". Hence the title of the Book by Col Kyle, Airforce commander of the Operation. Great stuff, great read.

[OFBSLF]

It is my understanding that Task Force 160 was created as a result of Desert One. The US now has dedicated aircraft and aircrew for special operations missions. http://www.nightstalkers.com/history/1.html

[SASless]

http://rescueattempt.tripod.com/id13.html

Some insider information about the Iran raid and other events that relate to Spec Ops.

We must not forget the wonderful deeds done by our friends to the north and others....the Canadians especially deserve our gratitude for what they did for us.

[Time Bandit]

Would like to see Gogle Earth Placemarks of where it happened, or find the co-ordinates. Especially of Desert One.

Tried to find out more months ago but info on the exact loaction seems sparce (hardly suprising seeing as Desert one was surprisingly in the middle of the Desert!)

This is the best one I could find...
http://www.helis.com/featured/operations/desertone.jpg

Any clues?

[Talking Radalt]

Erm. The dramatisation was set in late 1979. The RAF did not get its Chinooks until December 1980. I am assuming that you have Chinook stuff from operators that actually own the aircraft? Or do you have lots of artists' renditions of Chinooks in the markings of countries that don't yet have any of the aircraft? If the latter then suggest you follow own advice and remove them from display.
And I bet you love pointing out that bit in Star Wars where Mark Hamill calls Carrie Fisher by her real name on screen, and the fact that the Sherman tanks seen crossing the Rhein in A Bridge Too Far are in fact Landrovers carrying fibreglass mock-ups? You can see the strings in Thunderbirds sometimes too :hmm:

[sooms]

At the risk of turning this into an international slanging match, and without wishing to show disrespect to anyone who lost their lives...

Anyone noticed how most US SOF operations in the public domain are 'glorious failures'

Mogadishu
Desert One
The Vietnam Prison Camp rescue where the camp was empty (Son Tay?)
The Maguez (sic) incident in the 70's.

How about a TV programme about THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SF MISSION in recent times-

The rescue of the Royal Irish from the West Side Boys in Sierra Leone by 22 SAS, SBS, FAA, RN, Para Reg and JSFAW.

With due respect to Tpr Brad Tinnion.

[teeteringhead]

some of the International Airadio guys who were with ATC left two cases of cold beer beside the taxiway with a placard " From us all to you all for having the guts to try". Hence the title of the Book by Col Kyle, Airforce commander of the Operation. Great stuff, great read.

I thought it was the then SOAF OC at Masirah who gave 'em the beer......

.... at least that's what he told me recently ....

[SASless]

Sooms,

Errrr...hows about Afghanistan vis a vis the Taliban. SpecOps did okay in that one...freed an entire country...but I guess only because the SAS, SBS were involved.

[sooms]

Op Anaconda??

Bungled downed CH47 rescue...lost 2 MH47 plus how many SF plus 5 out of 6 AH64 ooa by the end of day one.

Rehearsals in broad daylight in full view of anyone in the mountains with a pair of bino's and a satphone?

I saw it myself.

Anyway, enough of pointless banter.. Lets concentrate on something we agree on..

Noticed how all the French Foreign Legion's famous celebrations are defeats-

Camerone
Dien Bien Phu
Bir Hakiem (sic) - ahh, actually that one was our fault. Sorry boys!!

[Ewan Whosearmy]

And I bet you love pointing out that bit in Star Wars where Mark Hamill calls Carrie Fisher by her real name on screen, and the fact that the Sherman tanks seen crossing the Rhein in A Bridge Too Far are in fact Landrovers carrying fibreglass mock-ups? You can see the strings in Thunderbirds sometimes too :hmm:

No, I just expect a BBC documentary/re-enactment to do some *basic* research and get things right. Sorry if my expectations of what routinely markets itself as a world-leading maker of documentaries and factual programmes offends you so much that you have to resort to a personal insult.

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, I think the public domain idea is true. It is the cockups that hit the media. Had the Iranian Embassy seige not been shown live SF would have prefered it to remain invisible.

There will be many others where the mission was successful AND the media did not find out. By their very nature cockups tend to get publicity.

In the Falklands one incident was the storming of Top Malo House. Arg SF thought they were safe and did not put out sentries. They were wrong. The MOD made a short film of this SFvSF incident and it went on public release as a free short. Probably bundled with a Bond movie. Seemed to have disappeared without trace as it was neither contentious (Belgrano) or a cockup (Ajax Bay). The media love cockup and controversy.

Look at that US film about the female hero doc flying in to Kuwait in GW1. In its way it too was a cluster f*ck and hence good drama if cr*p movie.

[What Limits]

I was on the Mountbatten CSRO course with one of the USAF Combat Controllers who was first in to Desert One. The main problem was that he could only talk to USAF assets as there was no means to talk to all the other agencies. Could that happen now?

[SASless]

The Israelis pulled off Entebbe in a few days....Son Tay was practiced for months....long enough for all the POW's to have been moved for months.

Failures occur in all military organizations...learning from them is beneficial...pointing fingers at the failures and ignoring the successes is neither fair or appropriate.

To compare today's Spec Ops with the Iranian fiasco without noting the great advances in equipment, techology, training, and resources that stem from that operation ignores reality.

In warfare....some things are "givens"...if you believe your own propaganda you are bound to fail, if you under-estimate your opponent you will fail, if your tactics become predictable you will fail, and if you lose the intitiative and have to fight your opponents fight on their turf on their terms....you are going to get yer ass kicked.

The key to success is to never lose the initiative, have superior tactics, firepower, and intelligence...the unfortunate thing is both sides are trying to achieve that and only one side is going to succeed.

Nationality and colours of uniforms do not grant success. Even Bad guys have good days.

View videos of combat actions...find other sources of videos and take a critical view of what you see. Read After Action reports and review Lessons Learned studies....sit down with guys that were in action and talk to them....find out what works...what does not work...and learn from that research. If you don't repeat the mistakes and only make new ones....at least you are one step ahead of the Oppos who are doing the same research.

The enemy is capable of change....if you don't....they will defeat you. Wellington won at Waterloo...but he would not fare so well on today's battlefield.

Let's see how the boys going to Afghanistan do....it will be a learning exercise far beyond what they anticipate I can promise you. The Taliban are experienced and are fighting on their home turf thus they enjoy an advantage over the visitors. High rocky desert and mountains leave helicopters at a distinct disadvantage. Tactics and procedures will only go so far in mitigating risks and exposure. Once you have an aircraft down you revert to fighting the Oppos on their terms and they will do well. There will be aircraft lost there....count on it.

[West Coast]

Saw a documentary a few weeks ago about Son Tay. There is a possiblity that there was an op within an op. One of the helos landed at a "school" several hundred yards away from the target. All the students at the school were heavily armed foreigners who packed heavy heat. The tech advisors as they were called were killed and then the helo lifted for the prison. Some of the participants seemed convinced of the mission within the mission, while others are skeptical.

What happened to the Brit ****hook during the Malvinas gig that went down somewhere on the mainland? What happened, and what was its mission?

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast, having read the book many moons ago, there was nothing secret about the mission within the mission. The sideshow you mention was I believe intended to prevent reinforcements from that direction.

Now if we were talking Chinese 'neutral' embassies in bandit country - or French come to that . . .

[West Coast]

PN

"having read the book many moons ago"

Does that make it definitive then? Some of those who were there have questions about it. None of those interviewed indicated they knew about the "reinforcements" at the school. If that was part of the known mission you would think they would know why they landed there to begin with. Why would the reinforcements be non Viets? Doesn't add up to simply say they were there to back up the guards. If they believed so, the gunships could have blown the place to kingdom come.

Sorry, but your explanation has far too many holes in it.

If it wasn't for the actual participants seeking answers to the question I might buy off on what you believe.

[PLovett]

There is a book written by Eric Haney (sp?) who was one of the original Delta troops and who was inside the C130 when it was hit by the helicopter. He was sitting near the ramp and was only just able to escape before the fireball consumed the aircraft.

IIRC he ascribes the failure to too many arms of the US military wanting to get involved with a completely labyrinthine communications net. He also believed that if the mission had been allowed to proceed as it was originally intended by Beckworth then it would have succeeded.

He was also present in Grenada and Panama (I think) and saw exactly the same failures with too much attempt at micromanagement from the upper echelons.

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast,
I disagree.

I have been involved in ops where we did not know even a fraction of the picture. I have since looked for other information and there is just a black hole. Why? Because the guy responsible for filing the information in the archives seemingly failed to do so.

I know, I had some of this responsibility. More recently, in the Falklands conflict the UK based RAF HQ merely stated that they were not filing that month because they were too busy with the war.

Need to know happens. In Vietnam it was almost a given that 'prone to capture' troops were never given all the information that they thought they needed. There is plenty of written evidence of the conflict between front-line and intel weenies to confirm that.

An author, writing after the event, brings practised skills to bear and an ability to research that the troops at the time rarely have afterwards. As I recall the book was written within a few years of the event when the particiants were young men. Now they have time to sit back and reflect. Again, I know, having watched WWII vets who barely gave a thought to what happened for 30 years and who from 50 years on are anxious to set out the story, uncover the cock-ups, and make sure history knows the full story. The full story however may contain no secrets.

[West Coast]

I understand you think its cut and dry. I also have done my fair share of operations in the desert and in Africa that all the details somehow didn't surface. That said, nothing as grand as what happened to those guys ever happened. I don't buy that over the course of the planning it was somehow overlooked. Details that large come out if not from the planners, but from the operators as they practice.


"In Vietnam it was almost a given that 'prone to capture' troops were never given all the information that they thought they needed"

I'd like to see you show some proof of that. To say its "a given" indicates wide acceptance of an idea. When I joined the Marines, the majority of my trainers were Nam vets. Nothing of this denied Intel concept existed then. Nor is it doctrine now not to brief required parts of the mission nowadays.
Details do slip. Some are intentionally skipped. You may say an operator may not know what country he is about to enter, however to say that they don't know at a tactical level what the mission is is doubtful.

However your sentence reinforces the possibility of a mission within a mission. Nothing overly covert about blocking reinforcements from the main target. Basic military planning. No reason not to brief in excruciating detail that part. Only increases the chances of success. Practically put, there is no reason not to brief about the school house. Even if captured, no great surprise to the enemy that basic tactics of blocking reinforcements was used, if that was indeed the overt portion of the covert plan.

As far as the old man argument, nope. These aren't 80 something WWII guys.
Many of them are still reletively young. Time does gray details, but I think even the WWII vets still know what the mission was. I can remember in vivid detail from operations decades before. Sorry, don't buy it.