best for learning: big or small airport?

[terminal-nosedive]

I'm thinking of starting to learn to fly and I have the option of learning out of and International airport (Glasgow) or out of a light aircraft airport (Cumbernauld). Was looking for opinions on whether its better to learn among the big-boys or in quiet airspace with other leaners.

Cheers.


oh yeah - its my first post. so, hi!:)

[Flock1]

Hi,

You've got to make that decision yourself. Here's what I think though, based on the fact that I did the first half of my PPL at a busy airport (Leeds) and ther second half at a quiet, grass, uncontolled airfield.

The international airport was good for getting used to ATC, holding points, radiotelephony, larger aircraft, VRP's, etc. I felt safe at the airport - the fire crews were always at the ready! It was all very orgnanised, and the planes were well maintained. On the negative side, because I found R/T very difficult, and being immersed into it from the start scared me to death. It continued to blight my progress through the PPL. Also at Leeds, for every hour lesson, maybe ten minutes would be wasted sat at the holding point (to allow commercial aircraft in and out) or doing orbits before landing (for the same reason). All of this time cost me cash.

The grass strip was good because I was usually the only bugger there. No hanging around waiting for other aircraft to take off or land. And with no one in the radio room, I was free to do as I pleased (within reason). It was also much cheaper to fly from. It also gave me the opportunity to hang around a club house - something I didn't get at Leeds. The clubhouse was a place for general aviation pilots to meet, swap stories, have fun. At Leeds there was none of that. On the negative side, however, I had to fuel my own plane up. I had to negotiate uncontolled airspace, with no Air traffic Controller keeping me safe via their radar. And The runway was much shorter and bumpier.

But having experience of both gave me the best grounding for my post-PPL flying. I could fly into large airports and small grass fields. But if I had to choose one training establishment from the other, I'd opt for the grass field. Simple economics for me.

Hope this helps

Flock1

[robin]

I had a lot of wasted time learning at a big airport - 2 or three lessons were abandoned waiting at the hold for a large aircraft to land.

Also, they wouldn't let us solo from the airport until we had the PPL, so we had to go elsewhere for solo flying, which added to the cost

Small airfield everytime.

[MyData]

This topic has come up a few times in the past - do a search of the archives...

My experience is similar to that of Flock1. I started at Leeds and found the radio-telephony and ATC quite daunting at first. They give you instructions and you MUST comply on the ground and in the air. But I enjoyed the challenge.

I completed my PPL at the much smaller Sheffield airport which isn't in controlled airspace and has a Radio ATSU which gives information but it is up to the pilot to make the final decision. There is also much more of a relaxed GA atmosphere which adds to the enjoyment.

For me - I'd go the the Leeds (busy airport) option to give you 'big airport' experience from day one. You can always do land-aways at smaller airfields during and after your training, yet you might find that if you train at grass-strips you might never get the chance or confidence to use controlled airspace.

So maybe the best option is to start at Glasgow then transfer to Cumbernauld ;-)

[Whirlybird]

From what I've seen, people who learn at large airports are confident on the radio, not daunted by controlled airspace, and used to mixing it with the big boys. Bur they're often terrified of any runway shorter than about 1000 ft, and have no idea how to make their own decisions or sort things out in the circuit without being told what to do.

Those who learn at small fields, OTOH, learn from the start to make their own decisions and land on shorter runways. But they often panic at the mere idea of controlled airspace and having to do what a controller tells them.

Whichever one you learn at, you will hopefully get a chance to land at one of the other sort during your training. If not, and even if you do, make sure you get the extra practice after you've got your PPL - take another pilot with you if you don't feel up to coping alone.

Basically, you pays your money and takes your choice...and the PPL is a licence to learn.....everything you didn't learn while you were doing it.

[FlyingForFun]

The best experience, IMHO, is to do a bit of flying at both airfields!

I don't mean straight away.... it's not impossible to split your training between two schools, but it's difficult and very rarely a good idea. But whichever one you decide to train at, set yourself the task of doing, say, 20 hours of flying at the other one after you get your license.

This is what I did - I learnt at an uncontrolled grass airfield, and then very soon after I got my PPL I spent two months at a busy air-traffic-controlled airfield in America. By the end of that, I was totally confident in either environment.

Welcome to PPRuNe, and good luck, whichever you choose!

FFF
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[172driver]

Am with FFF on this one. Which in reality means - go for a big airport. As you will have to do some of your training on small fields anyway (often taking off from the 'big one', then going to some small strip for t&g's, then return into controlled airspace - brilliant training!), you'll get the best of both worlds :ok: Enjoy the flying !

[Say again s l o w l y]

It depends on how deep your pockets are. £25 a landing at GLA!:eek: Circuit training won't be fun!

Small airports for me, but then again I'm biased as I prefer going somewhere with the radio off and dropping in to some small uncontrolled and deserted strip, rather than being harrased by ATC who are (rightly) more interested in getting the big boys away.

[RatherBeFlying]

I trained out of a grass strip that was snow for some months a year. When the field was muddy in the spring the a/c were based at paved (read controlled) fields, one with 2 runways, the other a major field.

You learn to check the runway, circuit and approaches yourself instead of using ATC as a crutch -- something you should continue to do at controlled fields.

I would advise a student to wait until after solo and at a stage of comfort with handling the a/c so that the brain can accommodate the extra workload.

If the workload gets too high, the magic words are: unfamiliar with the area, and student pilot.

Oh yes, ATC at large a/ps can issue creative and long winded instructions to g/a and then immediately issue a long string of instructions to everybody else while you have no idea of what you are told to do and can't get in a word edgewise:uhoh:

[airborne_artist]

I did my flying scholarship at Luton in 1977, when it had two grass runways in addition to the current main. It made a huge difference to my airmanship, although we had to do solo circuits at Leavesden (RIP).

[boomerangben]

Might I suggest that training out of Glasgow would be of great benefit, but also of great cost. If I were you, I would do the PPL at Cumbernauld or wherever and then go to the school at Glasgow and do 5 hours or so with an instructor there to get the hang of CAS and busy radio. It might be an idea to get a radio receiver so you can listen in to the big birds going in and out of Glasgow.

[bar shaker]

You should learn to fly, before you are forced to learn heaps of RT.

As said above, at a small airfield you will also have no problem getting into a short strip and will have no fear of grass... two things that may one day mean you tackle a situation with a completely different level of confidence.

You will doubtless go on XCs to larger airfields, but you'll be doing so when you have the confidence to fly AND cope with detailed RT.

Then there's the bit about costs and the bit about time spent at the hold/time spent flying. Then ask how many circuits you will get in during an hour at the large airfield and at the small airfield. Circuit pattern lengths can vary enourmously.

Then finally, ask yourself if you will spend most of your future flying by hopping between international airports, or flying between grass strips/small tarmac class G airfields.

[TractorBoy]

Personally, I preferred to learn at an uncontrolled (A/G) airfield. It gave me more confidence to make decisions for myself, I spent less time hanging around (saving money), as well as getting me used to small runways early on. I found my first solo very daunting as I had to fit into a busy Saturday circuit pattern on my own, without any ATC telling me when I could take off.
I'm also a very low-hour PPL, but because of where I learnt, I'm more than happy to fly in to small grass-stripped airfields. The flip side to this is I have yet to venture into Class - D airspace. (Stanstead is a bit daunting !).
I believe it is a requirement of the XCQ that you have to do that one of the two destinations has to be full ATC, so you will definitely be taught how to handle the larger airfields.
However, the important thing is to find a school and instructor you are happy with regardless of where they are based, and talk to them about your concerns.

[kookabat]

G'day,
I got the PPL in a CTAF... it did have nice long runways though! I was a little intimidated the first few times I flew in controlled airspace... on the other hand, many of my mates did their early flying out of a controlled field - and when they flew into a CTAF they freaked out a bit - 'you mean there's no tower? And we hafta figure it out ourselves??' ;)
I'm now based out of that controlled field and after a few flights I'm used to doing what a controller tells me to...

So do a little of both!

[helicopter-redeye]

As you are the customer, tell them what you want.

Look at the balance of learning experience, cost and geography. The course content should be the same everywhere. What else can you get from the hours spent buring Avgas?

You could start a days training from their base at a major airport and get the benefits of the ATC service, mixing with commercial traffic, & etc then run the circuit training and other basic drills at a smaller (lower cost) GA field quite close. Quite a few schools do this to keep variable cost down (and so their cash flow up)

IMHO its only when you play in Controlled Airspace and at major fields you really build aviation confidence.

h-r;)

[terminal-nosedive]

thanks for the replies, ill keep all your opinions in mind.

i think im gonna go for cumbernauld, but will make sure i get a decent amount of time in amongst the big boys.

now to decide which school to go with and book a trial lesson...

[Send Clowns]

Regarding Flock's point of the cost of holding on the taxiway: I have trained and taught at Bournemouth. All three companies with which I flew charged the customer lift to land plus 10 minutes. They could of course log from first movement to final brakes on. Since the aircraft is maintained on airborne time and fuel flow is very low on the ground it is a very reasonable system, and is essential at an international airport.

The experience of people I know is that learning in a large airport gives a student confidence to fly into any size of airport. New radio procedures worry many people far more than short runways and lack of facilities.

[MyData]

IIRC when learning at Leeds the policy was one of lift to land plus 10 mins rather than the Hobbs which did mean that I wasn't under pressure to rush anything on the ground to prevent getting pushed back in the queue.

To be honest I can't really recall any major delays, the only extra duration was when taxying around the airfield at the behest of ATC due to traffic movements.

When I moved on to approach, landing, circuits, solo these were done at Full Sutton (grass), Gamston (tarmac long and wide), Sandtoft (tarmac short and narrow) so I got the benefit of different airfields, different radio, different surfaces and the time to and from each destination (25-30nm?) was spent doing R/T switching between controllers and radio, navigation (even from low hours), a bit of radio nav, instruments etc. So it wasn't wasted ferrying time and each lesson took me back to Class D controlled airspace.

I also learned at Leeds about vortex wake on approach which was a wake up call - and I'm glad the instructor was on board. Stuff like that you can read about but never get to experience without being near the big jets.

Regarding the QXC, I don't believe there to be any requirement for this to be to / through controlled airspace. Mine certainly wasn't.

[cosworth211]

I again recommend a mix of the two. I personally trained at 2 fairly busy airfields, EGKA Shoreham and KFPR Fort Pierce. Definately improved my RT, improved my situational awareness in the circuit etc.

I can also appreciate the benefits of smaller airfields, especially earlier in you training.

Personally I thought Shoreham was a fantastic learning environment, it is busy, has compulsory RT comm with atco, has overhead joins, and a runway you would get nervous landing a microlight on. Shoreham makes the real pilot in you. It just so happens to have numerous top flight schools there also.

Some people prefer a more gradual learning curve however, and fair enough, learning to fly can be daunting at the best of times! :ok:

[englishal]

what I've observed is that if you learn at a small field, it is very likely that you will only visit small fields on your cross countries (apart from the odd occasion), for the reasons of a) cost - it may cost a fair bit to land away at a controlled airport (£20-£50 per pop) and b) easiness for the instructor - it is easier to fly to an uncontrolled field that may know him / her or the clubs aircraft, or where they have a deal, hence less hassle. Whereas if you learn at a "big" airport, you get experience of ATC / big fields by virtue of being based there, and you will likely visit small fields on your cross countries for the above reasons.

As Send Clowns mentions, many of the schools based at big airports have deals that include landing fees, plus airborne to landing time, plus 10 minutes for billing purposes. Bournemouth Flying Club was like this. So you are not really disadvantaged by waits at the hold, and you can do circuits there without being landed a massive bill as it is all incuded in the hourly rate- this is something to check on though.

Myself, I got thrown in at the deep end, learning in America at Long Beach which is a very busy airport (10 runway combinations to choose from, and they seem to only change runway during a students first solo :ooh: RT consisted of clearance delivery, ground, tower (x2), approach control etc... ). It was daunting at first, however it did me no harm, the transition to Bournemouth on my return was very easy - ATC no problem apart from a few Americanisms, finding my way around the place not really a problem as the signs are the same the world over etc..... I now fly from an unlicensed and uncontrolled field, which I love - I have a share in an aeroplane, pay no landing fees, can come and go as I please, no booking out, just get in and go.......

Cheers