Project Genesis in Australia

[HamoAus]

Does anyone have any info on this?

Ta:confused:

[No Further Requirements]

I believe it is the integration of the RAAF's and AirServices' training into a common provider. I'm sure it will be further reaching though. RAAF Pearce Approach is moving to Perth TMA, and Darwin and Tindal approach are heading to Brisbane Centre. They will still be manned by RAAF controllers in the short term but using TAAATS consoles. I'm sure this will eventually change. There are some grand plans, but all in the plannign stages at the moment. Try the AsA website for any news/updates:

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com

Cheers,

NFR.

[HamoAus]

I checked the AsA website and did a search but there is no results for that search.

I did find some info that it had been announced from a private website:

http://users.ssc.net.au/mcmillan/

but that is all I could find.

HamoAus:E

[SM4 Pirate]

Try D+G forum... ASA bidding for RAAF thread.here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=209672)

[karrank]

http://www.trashcity.org/BLITZ/BLIT1069B.JPG GIVE ME GENESIS!!!!

[DirtyPierre]

the integration of the RAAF's and AirServices' training into a common providerNo. It's the integration of Military and Civilian ATC in Oz. Both the military and Airservices Australia (civilian ANSP) have manning problems. One solution is to integrate the two ATM service providers. Eventually, all ATC in Oz will be provided by one ANSP, with certain controllers having "special" military duties.

[UnusualAttitudes]

Pierre,

Would this mean that Civvie ATC's have a shot at getting RAAF Tower Postings??

[BurglarsDog]

Unusual A.
If you tired of making a decision about what to wear every morning, like the colour blue, (or kharki) and are prepared to pass an annual fitness test, attend first aid and OH&S lectures, and fire off a few live ones down on the range (mostly in your spare time off) and have a good sense of humour you will no doubt be welcomed with open arms!! The odd ATC rating might also be useful !!
Unfortunately, over recent years, where the RAAF and some others in the Industry have been concerned people havent always come First, Second or Third.
The curent practise of doing MORE WITH LESS FOR LONGER puts a very modern slant on the phrase PER ARDUA AD ASTRA (through hardship to the stars!) So true !
Perhaps project Genesis should have called project Exodus.:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

It worked well for us in NZ. Whilst working at Ohakea or Whenuapei working for Airways, we had the opportunity to continue in uniform in the Terrirorials. All the bases were civil units. When the RNZAF required ATC support they had a pool of controllers to use. I believe it is still being used there although the deployment requirements have been reduced without the Air Attack Force.

A core element of RAAF controllers can be maintained for deployments and a consolidation of the ATC services with ASA would possibly alleviate some of the manning issues.

I believe however that the military requirement or need for ATC services has always been over emphasized in Australia compared to a lot of other countries.

In this region for example (where most of the wars are!) all the military assets departing, arriving and en-route spend 80-90%% of their sortie in civil airspace under civil control getting to and from theatre, so the core "element" that we were talking about above would be ideal to look after the 10-20% of in theatre operations. All aspects of "the package" are dealt with by civvy controllers here on a daily basis and every combination of assets from Global Hawks to F15's/F16's/A10'sKC135 and any other variation on the theme whether conducting tanking, maritime patrols and RV's are integrated amongst the day to day civil traffic. This integration has been afforded little or no liason and under the circumstances has worked reasonably well, the peak of Afghanistan was probably the worst for all concerned and this could have been better disciplined had military controllers and airspace planners been more directly involved with civil agencies.

It is not essential to be in uniform to be able to effectively control military assets on a daily basis in a domestic environment and this has been proven for decades in New Zealand and many other countries. Move those assets into a hostile environment however, you will definately need specialized operatives to deal with all the military aspects of in theatre operations and the associated risks. The core deployable element that is maintained by the RAAF can serve this purpose whilst the Defence Civilians/Civilians maintain core funtions back in country.

:8

[DirtyPierre]

Would this mean that Civvie ATC's have a shot at getting RAAF Tower Postings??Not in the near future, although I've heard that there is a civie working at Willy tower.

The project will begin with approach services. As for towers, I'm not sure when or how.

It is not essential to be in uniform to be able to effectively control military assets on a daily basis in a domestic environmentVery true, as any aussie controller will tell you. Most aussie ATCs control militiary aircraft on a daily basis. We are involved in a big way with all military exercises, and are posted to Control and Reporting Units (CRUs) and even aircraft carriers during exercises.

Move those assets into a hostile environment however, you will definately need specialized operatives to deal with all the military aspects of in theatre operations and the associated risks Agreed Fox3snapshot. We'll still need those military types to go into those hot areas. Thankfully I'm too old for all that malarky!

[Dop]

KHAAAAANNN!!
:eek: I'll get my coat...

[Fox3snapshot]

Thank you for your constructive input.....:hmm:

[divingduck]

Gee Foxy...not a Star Trek fan then???

I didn't know you knew all them big words you typed....

I do agree with DP...hot areas where lead and other stuff flying....not wanting! Leave it to the youngsters.

[Fox3snapshot]

C'mon mate, where's your sense of adventure???? No worse than negotiating the traffic in Ruwi on a Friday night :E

[No Further Requirements]

At the moment, all RAAF ATC sections employ defence civilians as well as uniformed members. I think Edinbugh has only one full-time RAAFie on staff (the SATCO). I hope that the RAAF/AsA look at other nations like NZ, Germany and Sweden that have integrated military/civil ATC and take notes. This will hopefully mean the end of ADATS and one ATC system employed nation wide. At least with both parties using MATS as the basis of controlling, it will mean a relatively easily transition.
A couple of rumours I have heard:
1. Eventually TMA/TWR training will be done by a third party in Maroochy. I hear they are looking at setting up a training academy pitched at Asian nations and that AsA/RAAF are interested too.
2. Darwin and Townsville approach are currently done by the RAAF, and hence no air navigation charges apply within those TMAs. AsA is interested in taking over those two as they would make money out of them. To keep the RAAF happy, they would offload towers to the RAAF which lose them money, like Albury, Mackay and Rocky.
I open the floor to comments. Incomming........:ouch:
Cheers,
NFR.

[Fox3snapshot]

Operationally what benifit/need would the RAAF have to administer Albury, Mackay and Rocky? There are no air assets or logistic assets based there that require a permanent military presence. When it comes to excersize requirements once again the RAAF can supply a core element of ATC or Air Defence if required, especially practicable if in the future a majority of positions are absorbed into a joint military/civil umbrella. Not convinced it would "keep the RAAF happy" I am not sure if it would be on the best seller lists for postings either :ugh:

I thought MATS was the basis for controlling both civil and military???? I know before I left the RAAF we had gone to a common document with Air Force Sups...may have changed, haven't been on home soil for a decade...:sad:

Anyway, I see a major (and possibly overdue) change on the horizen that will, unfortunately, be a result of penny pinching and revenue seeking more so than practicle prior planning. The merits of a common system has been mooted off and on for decades now...:rolleyes:

[No Further Requirements]

Fox:
I thought MATS was the basis for controlling both civil and military????
That's what I meant. Sorry if it sounded the other way around.
Cheers,
NFR.

[Fox3snapshot]

No worries, thought my memory had let me down a bit there...its all this fresh air in the desert, plays tricks on the ol mind. ;)

[Elastigirls_Lover]

I think the Oz government had the option to follow suite in the streamlining of military and civil ATC back in the eighties, but elected not to on a fiscal basis. Any government is really just a conduit to a net successful business outcome (which may not mean doing what is bloody obvious to the humble worker dude), and I suspect in this case the contract of duality with Raytheon and Thales led to a better deal from a three-year term budget forecast (read more company tax paid, more bods employed, more taxed ****e bought by the more bods employed etc etc... and most importantly additional contracts for Raytheon Australia - they're all over the military). But that's just politics.

In reality every ATC (well those that gaf) both civy and mil thought it was a total joke, but like the softies we unfortunately sometimes are, we just let the bean counters do their thang with little opposition. And out rolled... AD/TAA ATS !

The Board of Directors and RAAF Chiefs have now looked at the books again. Due to events of late, the maturity now of Battlefield Airspace doctrine (there is now a more defined scope of operations for the RAAF - years ago it seriously dwindled within Air staff circles) has given the RAAF more direction, and so it does not require a majority civil ATC service provision, when it's more relevant core tactical skillset and training is now nicely packaged.

So combined with the common manning issue, technical feasibility, and sovereign security issues it now makes sense (or cents) to drop the Raytheon contract (in part), and combine the service with Thales. Bodies will go where bodies have to go, mil or civil. Qantas and VB might have a bit of a bitch in part about increased fees for DN & TVL (and eventually WLM?), but business is about sustainability - pay now and have the service indefinitely, or keep the cheap option and have no certain future.

But it's only one small fiscal move by ASA in the global atc chess game. The next 10-15 years will be interesting...

[yakkity yak]

Thats pretty much what I have heard from the horses mouth. Some of the smaller RAAF app units will most likely stay as is for a little, while the bigger units like Pearce, most likely Richmond, etc will shift, but in reality it is like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic. ASA really do not have the staffing to cope as they are still trying to cut staff...top SMS (for us guys in the ME we really dont know what that is because it does not bloody exist here). They (ASA) will continue with this folly until alas one day there will be a major incident, and lots of people high in the ivory tower will blame everybody else then the heads will roll.
They will then go into panic mode (because the pollies and CASA will tell them to fix it) and then find they cant hire enough controllers to fix the problem, because they have pissed off too many or they cant train them quickly enough. I bet the SMS has not considered any of this!!:rolleyes:

NFR: and who might the 3rd party be, who is possibly going to do the TWR/TMA training? I am guessing BAE, but please do tell all......

Cheers

[Fox3snapshot]

Define "us guys in the ME" in your statement...:bored:

[yakkity yak]

Fox3
no need to define as I believe it is obvious as to what it means... or are you an illiterate?:p

cheers

[Fox3snapshot]

Not obvious if it is about the truth....:cool:

[BurglarsDog]

Regarding the Third Party training bit for ASA/RAAF ATC.
The following article was published back in 2004. The company IATCA was founded by several ex RAAF ATC escapees who subsequently went on to provide ADATS conversion training at most RAAF Bases. Though it was apparently a done deal, little to my knowledge has eventuated with the Chinese contract or the subsequent development of a training facility at Maroochydore.
In my experience this "Definitely Maybe" scenario has been a disappointing reality for several major players keen to sign up ATC training deals. Aviation English Language training package deals continue to be the golden egg that many Academies are currently chasing .

Currently IATCA is believed to be in Fiji looking for other ATM profjects. Good luck to them.


18/07/04
(QldGovSpin) Smart State Aviation Company Lands Contract In China
Beijing: Premier Peter Beattie today congratulated Queensland training certifier IATCA Corporation for signing an agreement with the Civil Aviation Management Institute of China to deliver an aviation English communications skills course to Chinese air traffic controllers.
"This is further proof that our Smart State strategy to create an Asia-Pacific aviation hub in Queensland is flying high,' Mr Beattie said.
"IATCA is typical of the types of proactive, first-class aviation trainers we have in Queensland where we now have a critical mass of aviation and aerospace companies.
"Major aviation and aerospace players like Boeing Australia, EADS Australian Aerospace, Qantas 767 maintenance and Virgin Blue, all call Queensland home.
"We have also developed a centre of excellence in maintenance and engineering training in Queensland with organisations such as Aviation Australia at Australia TradeCoast and the Singapore Flying Training Centre at Sunshine Coast Airport.
"IATCA's agreement with the Civil Aviation Management Institute of China follows the International Civil Aviation Organisation's stipulation in 2003 that English is the mandatory international language for aviation.
"IATCA met the Civil Aviation Management Institute of China to discuss aviation English communications skills courses as well as air traffic control training.
"The Institute begins a five-week trial of IATCA's aviation English communications skills course in August.
"This type of training has the potential to generate a significant amount of export revenue for Queensland as do the company's plans to train air traffic controllers"
IATCA proposes to build an international air traffic control training academy for overseas students at Sunshine Coast Airport, Maroochydore, and is in advanced discussions with the Civil Aviation Management Institute of China on this as well.
IATCA plans to begin air traffic controller training in 2005.
The Premier is leading a 10-day trade and investment mission aimed at strengthening Queensland's market ties and creating new business opportunities in China, Hong Kong and Thailand.
DogGone:ok:

[RTB RFN]

Apparently there has been a significant event occurred in Project Genesis during the past couple of days. I assume this is not connected with the failure of training integration or a bizarre/mind boggling recent appointment (and associated killer Faux Pas by that person).

I'm pulling all resources to get the latest Intel ..........

Any News?? This sounds big.

[SATCO]

I hope that the RAAF/AsA look at other nations like NZ, Germany and Sweden that have integrated military/civil ATC and take notes. This will hopefully mean the end of ADATS and one ATC system employed nation wide.
NFR.

You think YOU got it bad! Europe's currently running with over 30 different ATC systems and about twice that number of software systems running anything and everything from radar to the tea machine!

The Single European Sky initiative will put paid to that, over a period of time. And at long last we can all start singing from the same hymn sheet. This should see improvements for all concerned. It works! I know, we did at London Mil years ago with LJAO and Eastern Radar.

www.eurocontrol.int/corporate/ public/standard_page/sk_ses.html