Helicopter Training Conundrum?

[Copterfan]

Hallo,

I was originally going to post this on Rotorheads but I fear the padlock of Heliport already, and having the 1000's of hours chaps (and Girls) larfing at me....So I throw myself on your kindness!

I have (finally) decided that it is the rotary wing that I must go for. Originally my dilemma was; should it be fixed or rotary, but having thought more, I am rotary.

No problem, you say, off you go then! But: I live equidistant from three schools of flying, that between them train on the (wait for it), R22, Schweizer 300 and the Enstrom F28.
Dennis Kenyon said (in Loop) that he would tell his Granny to train on the Enstrom, but he displays the Schweizer...
Apparently; the Enstrom is benign, the Schweizer is precise, and the R22 is prolific and has many scary stories attached. There's a few about the Schweizer, but none I can find about the Enstrom, (flame on...).

My ultimate aim is to get into the As355n or the Ec135t2, it was (in my naive -believing all the magazine stories- yes, before Pprune days) originally my intention to pass the PPl and then head straight for the EC120. Not now that I've read a lot more about it on here.

So; knowing that, which chopper would suit that path best? Should I terrify myself in the R22 (note-buy weights for under other seat), be calm in the Enstrom, or learn to fly like Dennis (if that is possible, big respect Dk) in the Schweizer?

So, come on, get off the fence and defend your types, or tell me which is the way to go. I am not being glib about this, I seriously need some guidance guys and gals.:confused:

Thank you in advance,

Copterfan. (cue the snickering) :bored: .

[Flying Lawyer]

It's good to see a helicopter PPL question in this forum, but your comments about Rotorheads are silly. I'm only a PPLH but I've always found the "1000's of hours chaps (and Girls)" very helpful. People who ask FAQ are directed to relevant threads and sometimes have their own thread locked, but not often enough IMHO.
There's an index to common helicopter training questions here: FAQ (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122944)

Unsurprisingly, you're not the first person to ask for advice on the best helicopter for training. The FAQ Index would have taken you there but, to save you the trouble of looking, here's a direct link: Best helicopter for training (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75186)

I trained on the R22 and have no complaints.
The 300 is said to be more stable, therefore easier to fly, therefore an easier helicopter for training. (I don't know because I've never flown one.) They cost more, but that may not be a factor.
Enstroms have never been as popular as the other two; I don't know why.
If availability and cost weren't issues, then I wouldn't train on any of the above. I'd choose a Bell 47, no contest. It's a wonderful helicopter, a joy to fly and probably the finest trainer ever.

Dennis displays a 300 now, but has also displayed Enstroms in the past - and was an Enstrom agent. If I thought flying the same type as Dennis would enable me to fly like him, that's the type I'd be flying. Unfortunately, there's a little more to it. ;)

IMHO the initial training aircraft doesn't make any difference when progressing to a more complex type. eg I did my first turbine rating on a Jetranger not long after getting my PPLH on the R22. I needed to learn about operating a jet engine, and learn the Jetranger's more complex systems, but a Jetranger is easier to fly than the R22. I later added a Gazelle rating, which meant learning new systems again. As you probably know, each new helicopter type means further training and a test to obtain a rating for that type on your licence. (eg An R22 rating doesn't entitle you to fly an R44.)

I was particularly surprised to read you were worried the experienced pros in Rotorheads might laugh at you because, by coincidence, a thread last week made me think how amazingly helpful they are. A student pilot said he was having difficulty with one aspect of his PPL training and asked for advice. Within hours, experienced pilots from all over the world were trying to help him, including two of the world's top helicopter Test Pilots - Nick Lappos (ex Sikorsky) the most famous and respected TP in the rotary world and Rich Lee, TP in charge of the Apache programme.

[svtcobra66]

Personally I would train in the Enstrom, I've got some hours in the F28C and it is the closest thing to a larger heli you are likely to be able to train in. Doesn't have all the power in the world, but it will certainly teach you throttle correlation (Something i think R22 guys seem to disregard as worthless). I also agree with Flying Lawyer's remarks regarding the Bell 47. Best training helicopter out there and it flies so smooth. Autos are cake compared to the 300 and R22. I have most of my time spread between Bell 47s, F28Cs, and the 300CB and C models. Obviously, I may be a bit biased, but I believe learning throttle correlation should be in the initial stages (private training). If you want to fly R22s I would then get an instrument rating or commercial/cfi in one.

[helicopter-redeye]

For benign training try the R44. Quite a few people are doing this now.

The 300 perhaps more comfortable than a R22.

The 22 quite adequate for value training but that is really where its value stops.

Think about what you may want to fly afterwards, either if buying or hiring.

Lots of 22/44 machines about for sale (large population always turning as people upgrade) and also for hire. Far fewer 300 for hire. Some for sale.

Enstroms geographically clustered.

If buying think also of maint. costs and who provides the service from where.

Most of all, well done for chosing the H discipline.

h-r;)

[Copterfan]

Thanks Flying Lawyer,

I hadn't meant my comments to be silly or disrespectful, quite the opposite. I posted this on the Private Flying list because I thought it wasn't a pro' pilot question. I have spent many years being a fan of aviation, but not from the inside, so far. It's hard to know whether or not a burning issue to me is just being repeated on here. I agonised for ages before sending it, ah well.

I spent weeks lurking and reading this site before working up the courage to join recently, including myself in as it were, the last thing I want is for members to think that I was being silly. I did read through the FAQ's but didn't find the thread you pointed me to, sorry.

Thank you for your comments, and your advice, I will take it to heart and strive to be more clear, and less nervy about seeking the said advice in future.

Copterfan.

[boomerangben]

For what it's worth, don't be put off by Robinson scare stories. If you fly a Robinson the "Robinson way" they are a wonderful machine. Also, if you can fly an R22, it is said you can fly anything (I made the transition to the 120 no problem although the first auto was interesting!). Throttle correlation is important if you are going to be flying pistons (you will be trained on its use in Robbies) but irrelevant if you moving onto turbines. Believe it or not, I miss flying the 22 (I now fly S61s).

If you are going to hire in future, availability is a very important consideration. If you are looking towards owning something bigger and are looking for the small piston type as a stepping stone, visit all three schools and maybe get a trial lesson at each. The choice of instructor can be as important as the type.

[Copterfan]

Thanks for the replies guys, and for taking the time to answer. Sorry that it's something oft repeated, but to me it's still a big thing, and having got to the point of choosing I went into information overload.

BoomerangBen; great idea about the test flights in all three, think that might be the way to go.

H-R; thanks, and it had to be helicopters, it's just convincing the wife that a new kitchen, conservatory and car aren't necessary yet, plenty of wear in the old ones.

SVTCobra66; I do feel the love for the Enstrom, especially the clan Bailey at Barton, I just wondered if I was missing something important with the others.

Thnaks again,

Copterfan.

[muffin]

Like most others, I trained on an R22 and finally wound up a few years later owning one. I did look hard at the Enstrom before I bought and was quite taken with it, but as HR says, Enstroms are found in localised clusters in the UK and I am not near enough to a cluster. I have never flown a 300 so cannot comment. As was suggested above, your best course would be to have a T/L in each and see which you like. I have only flown 4 other helicopter types in addition to the R22 and they all seemed very stable in comparison.

I would echo the comments re the Rotorheads forum - they are extremely helpful to beginners and there is a huge depth of knowledge there. Don't be put off by the "professionals" tag.

[DBChopper]

Hi Copterfan,

You've had some useful and informative replies. I would echo pretty much all that has been said. From my own point of view, the deciding factor was cost, cost and cost. At 6'4" it's a fairly snug fit in the R22, but it was miles cheaper than the Schweizer 300, in which I would have had room to stretch and is operated at an airfield only five minutes from me.

So the R22 it was. And don't be put off by the stories, but do ask your (prospective) instructors about the helicopter you intend to learn on. If money is not an issue, then why not have a trial lesson in a couple of types and go with your instincts?

Best of luck whichever you choose.

DBChopper
:ok:

[Whirlybird]

I don't really think which type you learn on makes much difference if you're going commercial and converting to other types afterwards. Most of my hours are in the R22, but I've flown the Schweizer and the Bell 47 (though not the Enstrom) and while they do differ, to a certain extent a helicopter is a helicopter is a helicopter. Far, far more important is that you like the school and the instructor - visit all three, ask pertinent questions, and see what you think. Also consider if money is relevant here - as has been said, the R22 is much cheaper. Also, what will you be doing to hour build when you get your CPL? If you're at all likely to be instructing, most schools use the R22. OTOH, there are quite a few schools using the the Schweizer for training now, and less people qualified to instruct on it. So really, you pays your money and....etc etc.

Can I echo what has been said about Rotorheads. I've had so much help from people on there, people with thousands upon thousands of flying hours. The flamers are in a minority - unfortunately a rather noisy one. Still, it's nice to see helicopter related questions on here too. :ok:

Take care, and let us know what you do.

[Copterfan]

Hi DBChopper,

Thanks for your reply; yes I'm pleased with my responses and they have cleared everything up for me, and I managed to take the hot crumpet between the cheeks from Flying Lawyer without blubbing. ;)

As I said in a previous post, I think that this is an incredible resource, I just am gagging to get out from spode status. :O

I admire you for having done it anyway, despite not wanting to go the Schweizer route. I must admit I have waited until it was fiscally easier, and the kids don't need constant fashion/uniform/ski-ing holidays etc...

I'm up for it now, and come the end of this half-term (too many child entertaining duties!) am hoping for some good weekends to get up there.

Thanks again, I'll let you know what happens.

Copterfan.

[Copterfan]

Hi Whirlybird,

Sorry I was typing the reply to Db when yours appeared. I have just read it. Great advice! Especially the hours building question, that's a point that I hadn't really considered I must admit.

I don't wish to bleat or blah about money, but when I have finished my PPL (there's a confident assumption for you!) I will have some choices in buying helicopters.

A year ago, when this all seemed so far away, I'd read Helen Krasner's test of the Ec120 about two hundred times and the (rare?) test of the EC130 in Nov 2001 Pilot at least three hundred times, but my choice seemed clear, it was one or the other.

But having listened to all the advice and read all the threads on rotorheads, I can see that it would be wiser to build hours and experience rather than rushing into buying a helo that may become more trouble than it's worth.

I will let you know,

Thanks again,

Copterfan.

[Flying Lawyer]

Nah,the Ec120 article was rubbish!




(Only kidding Whirlybird. It was very good. :) )


FL

[Copterfan]

Blimey Whirlybird,

Is that you...?

Well I've also read your Ec135 test at least two hundred times as well, you didn't seem as happy with the Long Ranger though, didn't feel the love there?

Can't you get hold of an EC145? Got a Flight International test of this from a few years ago, but it's a bit po-faced. ;)

Well blimey; HK and a close friend of one of my all-time heroes (Ray Hanna) lambasting me, I can't speak...

No, of course I can, what a resource this is! :ok:

[Whirlybird]

Glad you liked my articles, Copterfan - even I haven't read them that many times. I did like the LongRanger; they haven't yet made a helicopter that I don't like. But if I had a choice between that and the EC 120 or 135...well, there's no contest really. I hadn't realised that came out in the article though; I must be getting spoilt with flying all these amazing helicopters. Strangely enough though, I think I still like the R22 as much as anything; it's the ultimate toy which you strap on as a part of you rather than climb into and fly. But that may be because I know how to fly that one, and the others were too new and different really. But I'd just LOVE to get to fly the EC145. Have to see what I can do........

[Copterfan]

Credit where it's due Whirlybird; I like your style, and definitely think you should test the Ec145, and how about the 109 power? I enjoy the way that you talk about million pound choppers in terms of reaching the cyclic and the instrument pods being too high. It's a great leveller, and dismissing fenestron stall, great. I hope you get to test all the best 'copters, because the mag certainly pulls the stops out with the pics. Both the 120 and the 135 pics were tremendous!

Nice to have met, albeit electronically, and I will let you know what I decide, though I think it might have the word Robinson in it!

Cheers,
Copterfan.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Slight thread drift, but hey. Whirly,

Just picked up an old Pilot with Pat Malone's review of the Rotorways Exec in it. He was also sold on it like you, but as you can see the chaps on Rotorheads are less convinced:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211525&highlight=rotorway

Helo pilots seem more twitchy and less blase about things in general than fixed wing drivers. Wonder why? Anything to do with having a skinny old wing with high loading rotating above your head unfeasibly fast?

QDM

[DBChopper]

Anything to do with having a skinny old wing with high loading rotating above your head unfeasibly fast?


Yes!

:E

[gyrotyro]

Hi

I did my PPLH on a Hughes 300 after switching from fixed wing with 1400 hrs.
There are pros and cons for all three mentioned, the Enstrom is heavy though forgiving to fly, the R22 plentiful but it was not designed as a training helicopter but as a transition machine for experienced pilots, the Hughes designed for the military as a trainer is my vote for the best all round machine.

It has an excellent load carrying capability is not so critical of pilots reaction time in autorotation, one is not flying in constant paranoia of chopping off the tailboom in with a negative maneuver, there is plenty of interior room and excellent endurance.

With respect to operating costs, Mr Robinson does not actually sell his helicopters but only leases them as they need to be purchased again every 12 years or 2200 hrs.

I have a friend who is doing their PPLH on an R22 who has the same number of fixed wing hours as me and they took 65 hours to go solo ! This may be a reflection on the pilots ability or the instructor but in my opinion a trainer should be easy to fly and with modest ability the pilot should be able to progress through the PPL syllabus at the recommended intervals i.e going solo at 12 to 20 hours.

If it takes 60 to 100 hrs to obtain a PPL then the economics of using an R22 don't work. It should be reasonable achievable at the CAA suggested time of 45 hrs.

I don't consider myself to be specially gifted as a pilot, I did my PPLH when I was 55 so my reaction times must be slowing down now.

Try out all 3 machines and ask the clubs to show you their records of how long it is taking their students to obtain their licences, you may just be a nice juicy meal ticket for them.

Good luck

[Whirlybird]

The number of hours to first solo and to getting a licence depends on so many factors that I certainly don't think you can blame it on the type of helicopter!

I've never actually heard of anyone taking 65 hours to go solo in the R22. I do find myself wondering if it's the school or the instructor, who knows. From what I've seen, most people solo after 20-30 hours in the R22, and I believe the national average for a PPL(H) is about 60-70 hours, roughly the same as for fixed-wing. But some people do it in minimum hours, and some schools regularly get people through in minimum hours or very little more. I know one of those people; she was a f/w and microlight pilot first, and felt the course was rushed and she'd like to have spent longer over it. And some instructors feel the helicopter PPL should be longer than the f/w one anyway, due to the complexity of helicopters and what they tend to be used for...off airfield landings, flying to hotels, etc etc.

Basically there are a whole lot of issues here, and I doubt that the type of machine is a major factor.

[Copterfan]

Thanks for the replies Whirlybird and Gyrotyro;

I've had a lot of excellent advice and have now spoken to all three schools/types, and I have got it down to the Robinson and the Schweizer at Liverpool or Blackpool.

So I'm going to try both types at one school and talk again to the other.

I'm determined to make it happen, and I thank everybody again for their great advice.

I bet everyone in the heli-business is on here, it's great that there is so much straight talk!

Cheers again,

Copterfan.

[rotorboater]

Hi Copterfan, I would personally not do my training at liverpool or even Blackpool, you spend 20 mins of every hour waiting for ryanair or easyjet.

Don't rule out the Enstrom either, its a good solid machine to fly, not as nippy as the 22 or 44 or as modern but has the benefit of loads of power like the 300 and has fuel injection so no carb heat to think about.

I decided to learn on an Enstrom because I am slightly larger than perhaps I should be, but have since put the 22 & 44 on my licence, the best of all is the 44 and if youve got enough money to think about buying the ec120 then learn on the 44 raven2 its a fantastic machine, in fact you probably wouldnt want a turbine after it.

[Copterfan]

Hi Rotorboater,

I was surprised that apart from you only one other person has spoken up for the Enstrom; I assume you trained at Barton then, did you enjoy it?

Strange that my last post on this thread was only three days ago, I've learnt so much since then, and found a great instructor (from this site) who has given me fantastic advice. And others who have pm'd me with more great advice, all very helpful and very friendly.

I'm glad that I joined both here and another site (its all torque!), because I now realise that I would have leapt the wrong way had I not! Years of anticipation does not practical experience make! I mean seriously, you have no idea how close I was to buying a helo before taking my licence.:O :O :O

I have decided to go R-44, but keep it there for a while after my PPL(h). As much as I want to fly turbines I feel that it might be more pilot-profitable to fly more hours at first in the R-44, thus gaining more experience in a readily-available chopper (am I the only one that thinks they look good?).

BTW; interestingly enough, you are the sixth separate PPL (including four instructors) to say that they prefer the R-44 to other helicopters.

Cheers,

Copterfan. :ok: