Merged: Line Maintenance Issues

[company_spy]

the latest rumour from the mill is....QF engineering to drop all the handling of other operator exotic types. starting with SIT. it seems the big M can see a saving not having to pay tail payments to QF engineers by palming them off to "another" ground handling company under the banner of QF.
this green fields company will use engineers with little training and these engineers "AME'S" will be given approvals for their certification, followed by A380 training.
it has already started with the last lot of 4th years getting line jobs all round australia.
it could be worth it to jump back onto the ground floor.

[Danny Crane]

"greenfields"

Don't QF executives just love to use that wankword ?????

I am sure they think it makes them sound all big and important - just makes em sound like idiots to me..........

[Redstone]

It's almost like GD and co. have been given a personal mandate from the Howard government to push the new IR laws as far as they dare!!!!!!!

Things are going to get alot worse before they get any better.........

[company_spy]

How many Qantas LAMEs out there will accept A380 training with no paynent?

[domo]

Funny you ask, alot of people are asking that question sounding out where the silent majority thoudhts. the word is unless its done we will not see the a380 leading to job losses ect. standby for a union stance after the unoffical poll

[company_spy]

Union stance has already been been set. Standby for the hard sell. Standby for a sell out. Look closely at motivations and for vested interests.

[domo]

The people on the outer wont get a course
the people on the inner wont refuse a course
qantas will get coverage for free
everbody wins

[company_spy]

Accepting the certification responsibility of a completely new type for $0 does not constitute a win for any LAME. If the ones on the outer outnumber the ones on the inner, then the ones on the inner wont get to make the choice. If Qantas Engineering don't handle the A380, it will not mean job losses.

It's time to grow a spine.

[numbskull]

I too am perturbed by the rumour that we wont get paid any extra for the A380 licence if we get it.

However the LAME pay structure allows for an advancement in grade(equivelant to an extra rating-almost) after each 4 yrs has passed to recognise experience in the industry.

Under the "old" scale pre 1996 we would have lost a payment for the P&W JT9eng and presumably 747-200/300 A/F and ENG (shortly). This would leave those with QF international licences no better off than if they lost payment for those redundant licences and gained a payment for the A380.

For those guys who wouls argue that they don't have the 747 Cassic licence or the JT9- you guys have had at least one and probably two regrades despite no training that you wouldn't have had otherwise.

You can't have your cake and it it too!! much as I would like!!

[Stall Margin]

Regarding a/c type payments I hope the jetstar engineers will not accept the 787 type training for no extra renumeration. The ALAEA should be starting to negotiate now on our behalf not when the aircraft flies over the fence like they did with the A320:sad:

[chemical alli]

I too am perturbed by the rumour that we wont get paid any extra for the A380 licence if we get it.

However the LAME pay structure allows for an advancement in grade(equivelant to an extra rating-almost) after each 4 yrs has passed to recognise experience in the industry.

Under the "old" scale pre 1996 we would have lost a payment for the P&W JT9eng and presumably 747-200/300 A/F and ENG (shortly). This would leave those with QF international licences no better off than if they lost payment for those redundant licences and gained a payment for the A380.

For those guys who wouls argue that they don't have the 747 Cassic licence or the JT9- you guys have had at least one and probably two regrades despite no training that you wouldn't have had otherwise. u can't have your cake and it it too!! much as I would like!!

yes you are so right we have had regrades and redundant licences but may i say who wanted the lame pay structure so badly ,the company and we voted they accepted when it suited them so know it suits us ill have a black forest thanks

[domo]

but may i say who wanted the lame pay structure so badly ,the company
I voted for this structure about 10 years ago it was pushed by the union they told the company it would help them judge costs the grades were capped at a lower rate.it helped pulling back the terminal guys. I think it grew into a monster for them but a different culture reigned then they cared little about costs and lames where to be everwhere signing their own work

[Redstone]

I agree with what you say Numbskull, although you could argue that where some have done very well thankyou (particularly transitioning from old to new) some have done not as well. It's swings and round a bouts. I wonder if this might not be a precedent we would be setting here. Perhaps the company don't want any more initial licenced people, in which case it's up to us to decide if we want to go down that "swap a redundant rating for a new one" road, however what of the young ame who scores a 380 course, no payment? Is this going to become the new standard?

[numbskull]

Redstone its nice to see a rational debate!!

I too have seen others with the same licences as me now getting paid more than I, however I am still better off now than I would have been under the old scale.

As far as the 380 licence is concerned- its very concerning and I don't know what the answer is. With these new IR laws and the unions quickly becoming irrevelant, the ground is moving quickly beneath our feet.

If its going to be every man for himself then things will not be pleasant.

I guess if the employers make it so that there is insufficient reward for our labours then they will struggle to find the workers and the laws of supply and demand will kick in. Either that or the government will continue to import workers from overseas to do our jobs for less as they are already doing in other industries.

It will be an interesting year to say the least!!!!!!!!!!

[chemical alli]

i agree swings and round abouts some lost out when it came to the 767 rating and some gained with the classic and then some lost with the classic one point debacle also some also gained like heavy who were stuck with no additional training. the problem is if the precedent is set for new gen aircraft for no payment than there is no going back we have a wage agreement lets stick to it .lets also protect the up and coming lames and not sell them out !

[Redstone]

I guess most of us may not get the opportunity for A380 training any way, but as chemical says its the up and coming guys I worry about.

[Bolty McBolt]

Heard a rumour
The Big QF has said if us over paid pre madonna LAMEs don't accept the kind offer of no money for the A380 they will take their aeroplane and hire LAMEs at 50-60K including shift and they will work at times when the aircraft is on the ground
Is there anyone in the industry earning that money (including shift)
I say good luck to them,
Last time Q had a recruitment drive they couldnt get kiwis due to the cost of living in Sydney and that has only got worse in recent times with Sydney and the rest of Aust being rated as the most unaffordable housing world wide.
And the Sth Africans are now being paid good coin to stay at home after SAA lost half their LAME to Aust and the Gulf states.

The only way I can see LAMEs becoming available for employment is if QANTAS creates them but that is another battle...:ouch:

I say its time to call their bluff. If we lose we dont get to work on the 380 white elephant,
If we win we secure our future for being paid for our skills !!:yuk:

[Zigzag]

heavy maintenance dumping is just the beginning, its going to happen all over the place, if they cant make it cheaper they'll just dump it, start a new company up, much like express ground handling (EGH) and operate it the way they want to.
I'm sure there's an idea for an Airline there.............:ooh:

[numbskull]

I'm with you Bolty. If they can find LAME's to work for 50-60K then good luck to them.

It will only take a few maintenance mishaps for them to realise the cost of a maint stuff up. With a bit of luck it will only be delays and a few hundred thousand dollars each time and not a serious problem that will cause an inflight problem for our pilot brothers to solve/deal with.

Unfortunately some people have to learn the hard way.

[Turbo 5B]

Heard a rumour
The Big QF has said if us over paid pre madonna LAMEs don't accept the kind offer of no money for the A380 they will take their aeroplane and hire LAMEs at 50-60K including shift and they will work at times when the aircraft is on the ground
Is there anyone in the industry earning that money (including shift)
!!:yuk:
Ummm...Level 3 earns $52500 base. If he works the BHM shift he is on 7.5% average shift which totls about $56500 approx.
That would be the same as a new LAME with a single A380 rating.

[qf 1]

oh well,if the boys and girls at Base and line don't show any support to the heavy maint people in the near future I will be the first to scub it over in those areas when Qantas decide to take you guys on,HR where do i sign on,and not only that qantas will not have to blank out any bus windows because i will be more than happy to show my face

[Turbo 5B]

Sounds like the wrath of a bitter and twisted H/M engineer.

[Annulus Filler]

Why would Qantas management want to pay someone else 50-60K pa. for an A380 licence when they can give their own people 5 points and possible only have to pay $3-5k pa. pay rise (a grade change approx.)? If they are smart and selective enough on who gets the licence it may not cost them a cent. Quotas are filling fast. No more room to move. Don't be fooled that the lower levels will be trained. No way.

[domo]

I think the plan is to retrench the $150,000+ lames and replace them with $50,000 ones

[soldier of fortune]

i agree with u a.filler
the company will train approx 60 to 90 lames for a380 type rating . lic coverage .and the majority of these lames will be from the inner.its cheeper to give some one a grade than make up a new lame .then again with a base
rate of 53k + for a level 3 thats attractive to them as well.
i just can't see them investing millions of dollors to suport them including lic type training.
other than basic line maint work up to A chk level. i think lic type training will reflect that.

[BHMvictim]

So where do I sign up for the A380 course???? QF can train me up, get me the licence, pay me $53K a year, but I would leave pretty quick and go work elsewhere to earn the real $. Give it a few years and QF will be fed up with not being able to retain their A380 LAMEs...and I may have a chance to get back in... thats if I wanted to.

[domo]

have you heard patricks has put in a bid for the a380 handling contract

[Annulus Filler]

I think the plan is to retrench the $150,000+ lames and replace them with $50,000 ones
I think maybe the opposite. Just like our asian counterparts. A few highly paid lames with all the licences and many lowly paid workers. Unfortuneate if you are not one of the few.

[Bumpfoh]

With all due respect to a newly licensed LAME is he/she the right person to have trained on a new release, technically advanced and complex type, I think not.
I too was in that boat (newly licensed) at one time, but my first two ratings were on types where there was adequate coverage already in place so at no time was there a lack of local support to assist with those tricky issues that arise, especially with a new type (remember the 744 early days?).

Having said that there are always heros that bite off more than they can chew or will sell their souls to the detriment of the common cause just to better their own perceived position.:yuk:

Do so at your own peril. :ok:

[Skydrol_ise]

As an engineer with a reasonable amount of experience, both airline and G.A.
It is quite annoying to see the amount of engineers (mainly Qantas) complaining about this or that.
If these guys had worked anywhere else in their lives other Sydney Qantas.
They would realise they have a good job both in pay and conditions.
I havent worked for Qantas for a while, but I would imagine the average Line Maintenance Qantas LAME would earn over $120 K for a 38 hour week, 4 on 5 off plus "Z" days.
AMEs I know were making $80 K at Qantas Sydney Line a few years ago.:ooh:
In comparison to most G.A. jobs this equates to about double the pay and double the time off most G.A jobs offer !!!!!!!! :ok: :ok:
So rather than this thread become another slagging match, how about a few of you whingers tell us exactly how well/or bad you are paid, hours worked and let the rest of the forum members be the judge of how horrible you are being treated by the RED RAT:ok:

[Turbo 5B]

My base is 52500 a year, licenced on 747400er plus engine.With a 8 hour shift that gives single days off and 2 weekends out of 3 at work.(single day off is after a 2300hr finish followed by a 0700 hr start.)
Shift allowance averaged is 28..5% equates to about 68000k.Add public holidays etc plus a little bit of o/t pushes up to 75000k.
Prospects of getting an extra licence without moving departments? Slim. I respect your right to call me a whinger, however, if no one whinges the perception from the powers that be is that everything is hunky dorey.
I find that too many people will sit like a rabbit in a spot light and get hit by the vehicle and say "**** that hurt" instead of seeing the on coming danger and moving and warning the rabbit next to him.
ps. One of my pet hates is hypocrasy. Whinging about whinging sort of fits into that category.
And could I just add that I cant really afford to go backwards. One structures Ones life around ones current earnings and a forcast increase over the years.
I noticed that Margaret Jackson today has mentioned that Heavy Maintenance costs are 20% above worlds best practice and that we would have to meet those figures or lose our jobs.
That means to me that either we will will get paid 20% less or we will have 20% less staff doing the same amount of work.
Tell me why should I stay silent about that.
And while i'm on the subject of conditions (note this the second edit) what about job security?
If I survive the first enevitable redundancy bullet, what do I have to look forward to? Every year the same ****. "We need to remain competitive and the best way to do that is to sack some more staff? Who is next in the breach to get fired? That question will linger`over every staff member at the QF until Dixon goes.

[Skydrol_ise]

Mmmmmm, doesnt sound like "paradise" admittedly.
But my point is working overseas or at least somewhere else, may open your eyes a bit.
I have to say that any G.A. type LAMEs/AMEs who did a stint with QANTAS H.M. usually felt work productivity could of been improved upon.
Never the less, sending H.M. work overseas and putting 2 to 3000 people out of work, surely must have some political/public value or voting potential.
Whinging about Whinging is more to do with the tone of ones message than actually asking a question that has been bugging me for a while whilst viewing these forums for the past few months.;) ;)
Believe me the grass sure isnt greener in the G.A./regional world of aircraft maintenance. But we tend to complain a lot less :ok: :ok:

[Jetsbest]

I'm with you turbo...

Why is it that the QF marketers sell and capitalise on a world-class reputation (for safety, training, engineering excellence, maintenance, 'product' etc..) but when the managers say 'world's best practice' they actually mean 'cheapest' unless it applies to themselves; the logic then flips to say 'we need to pay world-class pay to attract the right people'.

Massive disconnect there in my book. Breathtaking arrogance and poor leadership. The calous delusion is then magnified when people like you, having been part of the workforce which got the airline its reputation, and who dares to raise concerns about job security, standards, safety corner-cutting etc, are lambasted by our benevolent leaders for potentially 'damaging the company'!

It seems to me that it extends no further than tactical thinking for their next bonus. It corrupts terribly and makes management decisions myopic. I don't believe that's good for anyone in QF. All the best.

[Capn Bloggs]

Believe me the grass sure isnt greener in the G.A./regional world of aircraft maintenance. But we tend to complain a lot less

Maybe that's why...

[chockchucker]

The Engineers at Pornstar do get paid more for one aircraft type however, I believe that there are alot fewer of them per aircraft than at Qantas.


Remember, they (Jetstar) already operate a LAME-less tarmac. Which is the direction that Qantas is heading. Providing many of the people that will probably get the first A380 licences with nice redundancy pay-outs!

[Kiwiconehead]

Those aren't BASE wages as you so shouted, but aggregate wages.

No shift allowances on top of those.

The QantasLink wages are a bit more than Qantas too, but we only have one or 2 types max, get no time based progression.

EIR on the Dash 1/2/300 $62500 + shift (eg 38% average for my 4 on 4 off day, afternoon), add $2000 if you get Q400 as well. (BTW I've been on that rate since Jul 2003, no increments at all due to a change in the pay structure)

Mech (2 category) is $53000 + shift.

Same as Jetstar there are a lot less of us on the ground.

Melbourne line for the Link has 7 LAMEs + 1 Store/TA for 7 days 0530-2330 coverage, 22 movements a day.

[Skydrol_ise]

Touche Capn Bloggs Touche :ok: :ok:

[Kiwiconehead]

Try reading the whole document.

This bit is what you missed:


27.8 Unless otherwise provided for in this Agreement, the base salaries have been calculated to incorporate all traditional award payments such as annual leave loading, single type licence payments, shift loading, penalties, public holiday loading, meal break penalties, weekend penalties, disability payments, signatory payments and tool allowance.

Only thing you get on top of the "Base Salary" as far as penalties is a $10 per shift permanant nights allowance.

[Bolty McBolt]

Turbo said
Ummm...Level 3 earns $52500 base. If he works the BHM shift he is on 7.5% average shift which totls about $56500 approx

I agree turbo I guess I should have asked who works a 7 day shift day night and public holidays xmas etc for that money in Syd and not heavy Maint.
As I am not sure what the BHM shift is?? What is a BHM?

You can work in other mechanic/fitter type vocations in Syd and earn $1400 a week pure mon - fri day shift. You will work hard but it does pay the mortgage.

Its time to get QF to show their cards rather than let them let them use their rumour scaremongering tactics to put us on edge for when it comes time for negotiations.

If we win this battle we have a future , if we lose QF will have lost too.

[planemad2]

Surely Qantas would be doing as most other Airlines normally do, with a new type, especially one as complex as the A380 will be, the more senior LAMEs will do the first training including accelerated OJT.

I would think even CASA would monitor this.

[numbskull]

2004/05 financial year group certificate of $104,284 that's with 12 hr shifts 2 days then 2 nights, 38 hr week.It includes very little overtime.3 group 20/21 eng A/F licences

I have no great gripe about our pay and conditions as I realise I would struggle to achieve the same unless I went overseas, but that is not the preferred option.

My main concern is my future prospects. I haven't had any training in 8 years and there is very little training on offer in the pipeline(at least training that will earn me extra money). The new IR laws concern me because QF will take full advantage of the laws to get what they want. The new laws give them a LOT of power.

Our pay rises are barely keeping up with inflation and as such are being eroded to the level of other trades. QF will shortly struggle to attract any one to their company with the pay on offer, those that do come will be quickly disillusioned by management incapable of making a decision unless it includes cutting costs year after year after year.

So what do you get skydrolise, what licences days off etc

[pakeha-boy]

Turbo 5b....it not called whinging mate....(thats what poms do)...its called standing up for your rights....engineers,pilots...etc etc it,s all the same.....we are expected to take the brunt of mgts cockups...pay for them,with interest,...and then save these miserable cowards from liquidation and bankruptcy.....3-4 mths later,you recieve a memo relating to mgt getting stock options and other perks.....they say they need to give these bonuses to attract the best availible....it obviously doesnt work,it is a flawed plan...jusk look at the state we are all in....

There are many in the private sector that would do a much better job,just look at airport mgt...the govt used to run these airports,when turned over to private enterprise they have become very profitable.....GREED, starts at the top ...not the bottom,if you have nothing how can you be greedy.....all the best to the engineers at QF.....spare a thought for your mates at AirNZ.....PORANGI

[Animalclub]

Turbo 5b....it not called whinging mate....(thats what poms do)...its called standing up for your rights....

What "rights" would these be please?

[pakeha-boy]

these rights would be to :

(1) negotiate fair and equitable work rules
(2) have mgt honour those rules
(3) make mgt accountable for "their" decisions
etc etc etc
the list is long....I too agree that a company only does well when we all put our best foot forward and contribute to the good of that company...Most of the Major Airlines in the world are guilty of piss poor mgt policies....as I said ...you have a "right" to question those decisions.......kuri

[Gone Sailing]

Skydrol_ise,

I think that the reason that you are hearing so much negative talk from QF Engineers in Sydney Heavy, is that we are all just sick of the banter that oozes down from Managment. It's the same old story day after day, doom and gloom, all the talk that we are not competitive, but no real action on the shop floor to try and address any of the issues.

Sydney has continually had the axe over its head for years now. With the reduction from three Heavy Maintenance lines down to one.

The bulk of our 747 work is now done in Avalon, in a facility that was set up by the now Manager of Heavy Maintenance Australia. It's his little baby and he will not let it fail. If it fails then he has failed.... News Flash KC, It's not too good down there. He is in partnership with the ALAEA on the deal, an association that is supposed to be representing us and our industries best interests, yet they are in bed with the company looking after their own interests. They have a pretty high attrition rate as did ASTA's.

Our 767 work has been moved to Brisbane now with a lot of Guys from Sydney moving up there on reduced real income and conditions, but not before they were stuffed about by the company with delays and miscommunication and a selection process that was just a joke. Absolute idiots were selected while good engineers were left not knowing what was happening. Don't get me wrong, there are some great guys and girls up there, but you can only perform so well under poor managment. The structure up there is not good either, with people in positions that they simply do not have the experience or competence to hold. They are struggling to recruit and retain personnel as the pay is below industry standard and the way the facility is being run. They are struggling to get the second line up and running, with the result that planes are going overseas for maint. Maybe they should have kept the Sydney line open a bit longer for an overlap, til they were on their feet. The numbers at Sydney remained high for 12 months so they had the capacity.

Both Brisbane and Avalon are on new structures with less LAME's to More AME's and composite crews, Airframe and Sheet metal. There are teething problems with this structure, some would say fundamental floors. Who is really to know.

All we know is that we keep being sold short. We know that we can do better, but all we hear from our imediate management is talk, talk, talk.... when what we need is a whole lot of action.

We have stupid policies in place like a manager looking after tool cribs who thinks that he is doing his bit for the CEO's cause by keeping his staff numbers down and stocking less consumables. The concept is 'order less, more often' but we have to wait when they run out. Mr Blackwood's must be laughing in his sleep, they are making an absolute fortune on us, with few if any checks and balances. The same managers decision not to hire in the tool crib / utilities area has most of our large tooling stored in a building over 500 metres away and we have higher payed LAME's and AME's spending hours a day collecting tooling. Not being precious, just looking at costs.

The big gripe is that Sydney Heavy Maintenance supports the whole of Qantas Sydney, with free issue, consumables, manpower, canabilisation....Not to mention the secondments...its a joke but we are not laughing, because we are too expensive, why is this, because the financial figures going up the chain, that decisions will be made on are not a true representation of what it costs to do what we do.

You are right when you say that our work practices could be improved, there is a lot of room for improvment. But we are being hindered by inept managers who continue to make poor decisions on the running of the place. To be fare there are two new managers In charge of Sydney Heavy and I am not referring to them with my previous words, but we are looking to them for action, and so far it has not presented.

When Geoff Dixon says that he is not threatening engineers, he is and has been for years. Now there is a whinger, If only he looked after his staff and encouraged them to to well and appreciated them for the assets that they are instead of his belief that we are a liability. Is his Maintenance reputation a liability, NO. But he does not give a **** about those who gave it to him.

Sorry for the long blurb, but I think that you will now have a better picture.

[Turbo 5B]

That's a pretty accurate summation.

[Skydrol_ise]

Thanks Guys for the comments :) :)
The heavy maint facility in Brisbane for 767, is this the "Greener fields"
you guys refer to ?
I would like to know the pay/conditions this facility offers, and how this compares to Qantas Sydney HM or line.
Just like a lot of GA jobs, big pay doesnt cut it, if you have to work under poorly managed facilities and conditions, it just aint worth it.
Never the less, the chance of 767 work and license coverage could be worth the change/risk for some.
My pay and conditons in the regional world (EBA not award)
I guess 75 K to 82 K for GROUP 20. Leading hands may make another 5K on top.
Be careful though some employers actually include their Super contributions to this wage. From my way of thinking this should be subtracted (eg in this case minus 6 K or more).
Shifts 4 on 4 off, 11.something hours. No "Z" days
No increments for years of service.
Usually no caps on licenses/LAMES (mainly because never enough applicants apply).
Most guys have some sort of Bond for training ( eg 2 years), but usually take that long to get fully competent on Group 20 stuff (especially if it is their first Group 20 license, which it usually is ).
Bottom line it beats fixing bug smashers (GA award pays 42 K, but no employer pays this as no-one would apply), but most guys are happy at least in the short time to work on something bigger.
If ALAEA wanted to contribute to this industry they could do something about GA award. This is joke !!!! and has led to many employers negotiating salaries/EBAs just to get applicants interested.
Makes me wonder about the next generation of Cert 4 LAMES from the many "Schools Of Aviation" that have sprung up instead of the apprenticeship system. Maybe they would be happy with 42 K and do anything an unscrupulous employer asks. Believe me there are still many employers like this in this country. Quite often they are the ones always advertising for LAMEs :ok: :ok: :E :E

[Woomera]

One reason Woomera is clamping down on sledging and personal attacks, aside from posts which are clearly outside the rules, is due to the number of email complaints and reported posts, many of which are totally justified.

We are currently receiving two to four complaints per week regarding personal attacks in the Qantas engineering threads.

No one denies you may have just cause to complain, however please keep the personal attacks out of your posts.

Sunny Woomera

[Animalclub]

these rights would be to :
(1) negotiate fair and equitable work rules
(2) have mgt honour those rules
(3) make mgt accountable for "their" decisions
etc etc etc
the list is long....I too agree that a company only does well when we all put our best foot forward and contribute to the good of that company...Most of the Major Airlines in the world are guilty of piss poor mgt policies....as I said ...you have a "right" to question those decisions.......kuri

I like your sentiment but you're not correct with your meaning of "rights". "Rights" have to be given or granted unless they're basic like the "right" to breathe.

So - if management refuses to negotiate about work rules - you have no "right"... and so on. You do have a variety of responses, but no "rights".

One doesn't even have the "right" to life if your government believes in hanging... and one certainly doesn't have the "right" to work - unless one owns the company or the owner provides one with a job.

As I said - I like your sentiments and certainly would encourage one to stand up for one's principles or such.

I'm not having a shot at your english PB it's just that so many people are claiming "rights" where none exist... we won't go into non-Australian persons in Australia.

[Gone Sailing]

Animalclub,

Quote 1.

So - if management refuses to negotiate about work rules - you have no "right"... and so on. You do have a variety of responses, but no "rights".

Your point is wrong, you do have the right to negotiate. If the management does not come to the table you lose an oportunity, not your rights.

Quote 2.

One doesn't even have the "right" to life if your government believes in hanging... and one certainly doesn't have the "right" to work - unless one owns the company or the owner provides one with a job.


The right to life is in some cases taken away from people who have generally commited terrible crimes against the society in which they are living or visiting. We are trying to get a fare go in our workplace not defend ourselves against a drug trafficing or murder charge in Singapore.

Every employer and employee in the Australian workforce has many rights and responsibilities. Many of the corperations and businesses have forgotten this, and are abusing their position and exploiting their employees.

As for the non Australian comment, totally not necessary, keep those thoughts out of this forum, mate.

[Redstone]

What about the "right" to withdraw your labour?

[Redstone]

That's right!

[Redstone]

I heard on the grape vine that A330 training has ground to a halt due to the large number of guys backlogged to carry out PCT training. CASA had an issue with the numbers. Anyone confirm or deny???

[Sunfish]

Interesting post, Gone Sailing.

While I don't think doing heavy maintenance on expensive Sydney real estate makes much sense these days, I think you have made a number of very good points that suggest to me, from my own engineering experience, that all is not well with the management.

1. If its true that Sydney heavy is loaded up with costs and is providing "free" services to some other profit (or cost) centres then you have a problem, because decisions about its future are being made with inadequate knowledge of the true cost picture. this could actually be lethal to Qantas because the expected "savings" by moving HM could be illusory.

I've seen the only aviation foundry in Australia closed down because it was "unprofitable". The net result was that the costs everywhere else in the company went up because - you guessed it - the foundry was carrying a disprportionately high level of allocated overhead costs - and they lost the revenue stream that went with the costs!

Its highly important with these sort of decisions to focus on the cash costs and revenue flows impacts rather than the grossed up "cost allocated to death" numbers.

Your comments about tooling being stored too far away, consumables inventory etc. are all symptomatic of whats technically called "sub optimisation", occasionally called the "I'm all right jack" syndrome, which really means that your tool crib manager is going to come in under his budget, even if it costs your department $100,000 in lost time. He doesn't care - your budget comes from a separate pool of money.

You need some good manufacturing engineers to come and clean up your systems. One of the tricks I remember Lufthansa used to fix the perennial "stores vs engineering" wars was to specify that if lack of tooling or stores caused any delays to engineering, then the stores budget got debited with the delay costs. All you need is a job code "waiting for stores" and a suitable account to dump the costs into.

[BHMvictim]

I heard on the grape vine that A330 training has ground to a halt due to the large number of guys backlogged to carry out PCT training. CASA had an issue with the numbers. Anyone confirm or deny???

Have heard this too.

[Animalclub]

Gone Sailing

1. if management refuse to negotiate who do you negotiate with? Therefor no "rights".

2. just trying to give an example of what "rights" are.

As for your last sentance - I agree. I regret I said it.

Redstone

You are correct - you have control of your labour, no one else.

[Turbo 5B]

What about the "right" to withdraw your labour?
Unfotunately that "right" will have gone right out the window with the IR reforms coming to pass. Aviation workers have been declared essential with ministerial discretion over their right to carry out industrial action and the 3rd party rule ie any 3rd party can request that action ceases if it migh affect them.
Little johnnie's Australia.....you have no industrial rights.