The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again. [Archive]

I hate cats

19th Feb 2006, 15:43

AS difficult as it may be for you to understand, the negotiation of salary is negotiated as a united group. Salary does not devide us, seniority does.

I clicked thru some of the links on the website so tell me if Im wrong. It says the 777 vote last year was hijacked by a group of Original Air Canada malcontents who linked the 'No' vote to getting their seniority increased at the expense of the Canadian Pilots. How am I doing so far?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15298

Then it says a mediator, Teplitsky, put together a seniority list last fall that favoured the 'Original Air Canada Pilots' and of course pushed the Canadian Pilots down the list further.

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15295

The trouble is that the Candian Pilots didnt even show up for the mediation becuase the whole process was illegal in their opinion. Correct so far?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?PID=15302&PIDList=,15302&PressID=328&ACT=Display

Is this how the mediation process works in Canada? One party shows up, the other doesnt and its called a mediation?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?PID=15302&PIDList=,15302&PressID=286&ACT=Display

The OAC group have one more crack at seniority fairness through an upcoming CIRB decision.

Im curious what you rate your chances are at the CIRB to change the seniority list. Slim? None? Not a chance? In civilized countries thats what the chances would be but Im straying from the point.

My point is this:

If last year ACPA decided to let a 777 vote get hijacked to get better seniority at the expense of the Canadian Pilots, why would any Canadian Pilots vote against anything in the future?

I would think they would vote yes to avoid getting dragged into the seniority muck again, don't you?

brucelee

19th Feb 2006, 16:10

My point is the seniority issue is coming to an end. Some will be happy with the outcome, some won't. It won't ruin any future negotiations with the company. When it comes to money especially, I don't think we have a problem being united. That's the point you're missing.
As far as what our chances are, I can tell you that as an original AC pilot, I just want this thing to be resolved, one way or the other and because where I work is the only important thing, I am willing to live with the outcome. Something you don't accept. How am I doing so far? In the past, the seniority issue was used by both camps as a barganing tool. All that is coming to an end. I don't know who you work for (my guess is you sympithyze with the Gucci boys, ex CP), but I would suggest you spend your free time worrying about your own camp. You're putting way too much effort into this dude.

flyr4hire

20th Feb 2006, 01:42

I Hate says: "The trouble is that the Candian Pilots didnt even show up for the mediation becuase the whole process was illegal in their opinion. Correct so far?"

Maybe someone should remind the ALPA camp who suggested the above mentioned mediation. Can you spell.....C.I.R.B?

Cheers

I hate cats

20th Feb 2006, 04:55

My point is the seniority issue is coming to an end. Some will be happy with the outcome, some won't. It won't ruin any future negotiations with the company.

Okay Brucelee. I can understand why you want to believe this. To believe otherwise would be admitting a large strategic error on 'OAC's part.

Lets back up a few months into the past and test your theory.

Heres your reference document: http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15299

I would guess that by mid-June 2005 that the former Canadian Pilots were comfortable that the Keller award was going to stay because by that point ACPA had lost every court appeal and CIRB decision since July 2002 when the Mitchnick Award was thrown out.

In this environment I would think that everyone is on the same page on the 777 negotiations, all pilots from both sides of the fence are focused on getting the best deal they can get to fly the 777 airplanes. The deal is not good enough and gets voted down. The company says its because of seniority, ACPA says the same thing but was seniority the factor?

I dont think so.

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/index.cfm?pid=15298

In the spring 2005 Air Canada was seeking further concessions from only the pilot group (which would require a vote), as it sought to introduce new aircraft from Boeing. The whole pilot group, Air Canada and ex-Canadian pilots alike, were concession weary after taking the lion's share of cuts during Air Canada's CCAA restructuring. Also, they were now well aware that the senior management of Air Canada had taken millions of dollars each in share options, not available to any other employees, during the restructuring. Mr. Milton stands to make tens of millions from his share options and the pilots see this as unfair for him to ask them for more cuts. By a narrow margin, they voted NO (one third of the pilots didn't even bother to vote).

This no vote was hijacked and labeled a vote against the Keller award by a small, but vocal group of a few hundred disgruntled OAC pilots. After the fact, the other OAC pilots jumped on the band wagon, seeing an opportunity to further enhance their seniority.

ACPA decided to capitalize on the 'seniority ' aspect and hired a mediator to decide two things.

1- Should the 777 deal be changed?

2- Should the Keller seniority list be adjusted?

The answer to both questions came quickly.

1- The 777 deal stayed the same, no changes and all pilots are stuck with the deal they voted down months earlier.

2- There was no reason for the former Canadian Pilots to show up for the 2nd question because the CIRB didnt sanction the process and the Canadian Pilots won every court decision and CIRB ruling for years. They stayed away and ACPA produced a list which favoured themselves.

The only hurdles ACPA faces in the future is :

Does the seniority process carried out meet this test?

Natural justice

A word used to refer to situations where audi alteram partem (the right to be heard) and nemo judex in parte sua (no person may judge their own case) apply. The principles of natural justice were derived from the Romans who believed that some legal principles were "natural" or self-evident and did not require a statutory basis. These two basic legal safeguards govern all decisions by judges or government officials when they take quasi-judicial or judicial decisions.

http://www.duhaime.org/dictionary/dict-no.aspx

If it doesnt the 'seniority' process ACPA carried out in the fall is dead in the water, your lawyers probably already told you I hope. You probably knew yourself when the Canadian Pilots didnt show up for the 'mediation'.

Which brings us to this,

Why would the former Canadian Pilots vote "no" on any future deal if it means another unrecognized 'seniority' process with another mediator? There is less risk to voting yes. The company knows this, and you know it but wont admit it.

My guess is Air Canada will low-ball ACPA as much as possible. Look, ACE just made more money than any carrier in North America last year and they are laying-off managers. They will low-ball you and you dont have the membership support to counter it because you burned 1/3 of them last year and they wont forget it.

Thats my take. Yours is different. I accept that and we'll see who's right in the next few months.

brucelee

20th Feb 2006, 11:59

Your references come from your own camp. Why should I buy what you're selling? Would I be able to convince you if I posted something from the OAC forum? Anyway, I could repost my initial thread in reply to your massive brainwashing undertaking but I think I would be wasting my time and yours.
I don't know how many OAC feel the same way I do about this issue, but I can tell you the majority do want an end to it. Those of us who don't stand to lose or gain much just want to move on. What part of that don't you understand? Tell me something, if the CIRB rules in our favour, are you willing to accept it and move on? You certainly didn't accept Mitchnik, why would you do anything different now? If moving on is made impossible because of this nonsense then I suspect we will just be shooting ourselves in the foot.
Do me a favour, if we ever fly together, don't bore me with ancient latin and Roman beliefs. I grew up on that stuff. Can't take anymore of it. Ciao Gucciman.

I hate cats

20th Feb 2006, 16:10

I understand the 'Original Air Canada' (oac) pilots want to portray themselves as the 'reasonable' group who is willing to move on. Too bad the facts don't support the supposition. It's the OAC group that has initated every seniority-related legal and CIRB action in the past 3 1/2 years and lost.

Here are some facts, something you seem unable to accept.

Using 'Years of Service' as a reference, most Canadian Pilots have lost seniority. How much seniority have you gained Brucelee, at the expense of Canadian Pilots? How much more seniority do you need before you deem the seniority process fair?

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/images/content/lost_service_2.jpg

Of course, lost seniority means lost earning power.

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/images/content/career%20earnings.jpg

How much more money do you need to make on the backs of the Canadian Pilots before its enough?

Losing seniority means Canadian Pilots dont make it to the top of the list, but OAC pilots do:

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/images/content/top%20ten%20percent%20-%202.jpg

Notice the difference between the premerger retirements and the K_Award retirements (Keller). OAC pilots get to the top 6% more often, Canadian Pilots get to the top 14% less. And this is the Keller list you dont like and dont think is fair. You want more seniority Brucelee.

Download and compare: Who is at the top of the seniority list in 4 years. How far down the list do you have to go before you see the first Canadian pilot?

Keller List 2003 (http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/pdf/Keller_List_Final.pdf)

Keller list January 2010 (http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/pdf/Keller_List_Final-Jan-2010.pdf)

To date, OAC-ACPA has lost every court action and every CIRB decision since July 10, 2002 regarding seniority. Why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose OAC-ACPA is unable to 'move on'? Greed? Mitchnick-list envy?

I look at your posts and observe a couple things.

First, very quickly you resort to name calling and rebuke. This suggests to me your arguements are shallow or non-existent.

Second, you are unable to support your arguements with anything other than, 'That information is from your camp'. The information I bring is what was presented to the CIRB and the courts. I didnt make it up, the ALPA lawyers did and submitted it as evidence of what the Keller list has done to Canadian pilots careers. You might want to dismiss it but the courts and the CIRB have accepted it. In the end Court and CIRB decisions outweighs your OAC innuendo.

brucelee

20th Feb 2006, 16:36

Holy **** pal, you need to get a life. You have just proven why AC has deteriorated to the level it has since we "merged". To answer your question, I lost 560 positions to give you a job and if the CIRB "sees it our way" I'll gain back 50. No, not 500, but 50!!! I and many others are willing to move on. Are you willing to do the same if you lose? Don't you get it? Even if you lose you have F*cked me and many others for the rest of our lives. So put away your graphs, charts and that fancy perfume and cross your fingers so you win. Consider yourself lucky to even be discussing this nonsense. You came very close to having to update your resume a few years ago and hope for the best. Now you're telling me how hurt you are and how bad you have it. I really feel for you. Maybe we'll put on a wine and cheese party for the top brass at the CIRB. But you know what? It won't work for us. You know why? You beat us to it. You've waisted my time. You've waisted yours. Happy trails and keep those shoes shined.

I hate cats

20th Feb 2006, 17:03

Looks like you have nothing constructive to add Brucelee, just more diatribe and unsubstantiated nonsense backed up by nothing.

Looks good on you and shows your true colors. Keep going. I love it. :ok:

brucelee

20th Feb 2006, 17:22

All my "constructive" ideas you would not accept. The courts have proven that even constructive talk doesn't help when the top brass are being wined and dined. What's even funnier is they admit to it. You must really be keeled over from the laughter. You must really be enjoying it. Although, I must admit, your tactics of whyning and complaining have worked. So that's the plan for the future, right? Like I said, one more shot at a token of fairness and we can all live happily ever after. Oh, by the way when you retire as an airline pilot and not a school bus driver, you probably won't thank me, but be sure and thank the CIRB. They just love your parties. Oh, and don't forget to thank Robert. I bet you'll be on that 777 sooner than I will. Yep, you've really earned it. Enjoy. You're welcome, partner.

CanAV8R

20th Feb 2006, 18:13

Yo Brucey:
You almost had to blow the dust off your resume a not too long ago as well so easy fella. If Milton keeps selling things (like Airplanes, Frequent Flyer Plans and Regional Carriers), and a AC loses another 100 million next quarter you may want to start looking at updating it.
Why don't you AC/CAL people just learn to get along so you can build profitable and happy airline. What has happened in the past is history. Seriously.

brucelee

20th Feb 2006, 19:50

CanAV8r.
And if you go back and read my threads, you'll find that for my part, I'm advocating exactly what you're saying. Perhaps you should address your thread to your friend who hates cats.
I'm curious as to what we "sold", as you put it. We haven't sold anything. Not one airplane, not Jazz, not frequent flyer programs. Milton has turned some assets into publicly traded companies. They are still held by ACE. In fact AC is now stronger because of that. So I'm not sure where you're going with that. And for the record, why don't you remind us all about ACE's nice little profit for the year.Oh I see, it doesn't quite fit your point of view, eh, bro? Now let me guess, you're not from around here are you? Happy? That's all we are around here.

punkalouver

20th Feb 2006, 20:32

Dear Brucelee and Canav8r. Could you both tell us how much more or less you would be earning now if the merger had not happened(based on an assumption that CAIL would still be in business). I know there are variables but let's assume zero growth for CAIL and only slight growth for AC.

brucelee

20th Feb 2006, 20:45

punka.
The merger had little if any effect on AC's financial woes other than approx 4Bil dollars in debt of CAIL debt on top of the egsisting debt that AC had was to be absorbed by AC. This debt was refinanced.
Salaries were slashed as a result of reorganization. They were further reduced for those who lost seniority because they could no longer hold the equipment they were on and were forced to fly smaller ones and many even lost their left seat positions. That can certainly be attributed to the merger. It is hard to put a number on so many variables. Maybe someone who has the time can come up with some fancy charts and graphs.

I hate cats

20th Feb 2006, 21:30

I originally posted at the top of the thread this : I'd like to know how these guys are going to renegotiate their wages upwards this summer when they are still at each others throats 6 years after this merger was declared. What a mess.

Brucelee, although he has shown he is incapable of bringing facts to back up his suppostions and innuendo, has demonstrated quite competently why ACPA is in such a mess. Brucelee and OAC's open hatred and invective towards the Canadian Pilots means that they cannot be trusted and are not trusted. Its a divide that Brucelee has shown in this thread for all to see.

Why would any Canadian Pilot unify with such a twisted and inward looking group like OAC? There isnt much common ground when your supposed union is out to cheat you in an illegal seniority fight.

Air Canada has been able to exploit this divide in the past and, mark my words, they will exploit this summer. ACPA is a paper tiger. All talk, but offering nothing of value to its members.

Good luck Brucelee in attempting to put a lid on ACPA duplicity. You'll need it. All your taunts reinforce my position and weaken yours.

A recap of events last summer:

http://acpilot.********.com/2005/10/air-canada-canadian-airlines-pilot.html

June 20, 2005
Subsequent to the failure of the 777/787 ratification in June 2005 ACPA issues a news release indicating:

* ‘The Association notes that the proposed contract amendment failed to gain support, in large part, due to the ongoing dissatisfaction of a number of ACPA members over how the Air Canada and Canadian Airlines pilot seniority lists were merged after the two pilot groups were brought together in 2001.

July 2005
Contrary to ACPA's news release, a poll of Air Canada pilots indicates 83% are opposed to the 777 deal due to the agreement's concessionary nature, 17% due to seniority issues.

http://tinypic.com/egq2aw.gif

September 23, 2005
ACPA issues a news release stating:

* "The decision to begin the mediation process was approved by ACPA's Master Executive Council today," said Captain Kent Wilson, President of ACPA."We sincerely hope that, Mr. Teplitsky, and the mediation process can bring the seniority issue to a final settlement," said Captain Wilson. "For the pilots and for the Company, we must resolve the issue in a fair way that allows us to move forward."

September 25, 2005
ALPA issues a news release indicating:

* ‘that Air Canada and ACPA both agreed in 2003 that their current seniority arrangement, known as the Keller Award, would be final and binding. "Both parties are being unethical and dishonest for their narrow self-interest; ACPA wants to push the OCP group as far down the seniority list as possible and Air Canada is pretending to assist ACPA so that they can re-activate their new aircraft order. This has nothing to do with fairness…’

September 29, 2005
ALPA issues the following discussion paper to assist xCAIL pilots in their lobbying efforts:

http://tinypic.com/egs83k.gif

October 12, 2005

Former Canadian pilots issue a news release confirming their refusal to participate in a new Air Canada mediation on pilot seniority issue:

* "Re-opening the seniority issue is simply Air Canada responding to what amounts to blackmail by its former Air Canada pilots, who the company wants to appease so they will accept the acquisition of new Boeing 777/787's," Captain Robert McInnis, who represents 1,200 former Canadian Pilots and chairs the Former Canadian Pilots Integration Committee said. "In 2003, Air Canada management, original Air Canada pilots and former Canadian Airlines pilots all agreed that the pilot seniority award of Arbitrator Brian Keller would be 'final and binding'. This move shows a troubling disrespect for the law. We trust the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board) will unequivocally reject this appeal."

* "In the unlikely event that the CIRB agrees to re-open the issue, it would be a dangerous precedent that could jeopardize the seniority awards of all other Air Canada unions, all final and binding arbitrators' awards, and all CIRB decisions," McInnis added.

brucelee

20th Feb 2006, 22:19

I have to admit, cat hater, when it comes to artistic impression, you certainly have an advantage over me. Add in some Russian-style judges at the CIRB, and there you have it!! A gold medal, well earned. The OAC have some pretty fancy graphs and charts too but unfortunately are not waisting their time on this forum as I am. Those charts would no doubt show some very different numbers. I don't have the numbers, but that doesn't take away the personal experience that I have gone through to make room for the blue gang. That's not graphs and charts, that's real life. Of course in this country, everyone is entitled to a job, even at the expense of others so when I whent to talk to my banker about my new degraded finances, I couldn't blame it on the merger. No, that would sound like I was whyning. Ever fly an RJ cat hater? No, eh? See after losing 560 positions to my blue buddy, I was trained on one while he continued to make twice what I did flying that Airbus that I was awarded before the "merger". I don't need your lousy graphs and brainwashing. For that matter, I don't need my own OAC charts. I lived through the real effects of the merger. Yep, you guys are the experts at mergers. How many are you up to now? Four, five? And you're still fighting about those past mergers amongst yourselves, so why should this one be any different. I used to work for a great company. But hey, the way I see it, I still work for a great company. Every family has an oddball. The Liberals asked us, no wait a minute, forced us, to adopt a delinquent and Milton took the bait. Like I said, you're gonna look mighty fine sitting in that 777. Congradulations on an honourable career. Oh ya, that last line is a knock-out, "all final and binding arbitrators' awards..." Was Mitchnik not final and binding until you decided to object? McInnis, now there's an honest salesman. You guys must pretty proud of him.

I hate cats

21st Feb 2006, 00:33

The OAC have some pretty fancy graphs and charts too but unfortunately are not waisting their time on this forum as I am. Those charts would no doubt show some very different numbers.

These would be the graphs and charts that caused OAC-ACPA to lose every time in the courts and at the CIRB since July 2002?

Keep swinging Brucelee, I love watching you try to twist out of the traps youve built for yourself. :ok:

brucelee

21st Feb 2006, 00:48

Just curious, what kind of wine was it? Was there lots of cheese and crackers? I bet you guys hired a hooker too.

flyr4hire

21st Feb 2006, 01:14

I Hate Cats:

re-read CIRB decision 925, paragraphs 18 - 21, and then tell us again who sanctioned the Teplitsky process. You know where to find that decision, it's mixed in with all your OCP graphs, propoganda, and regurgitation.

Saltaire

21st Feb 2006, 02:56

Hey Pudy Cat,

I suggest you run to the future, cause your bankrupt past that would have folded into never, never land would have given you jack. You have a job and a very decent one at that...Yes, we get the part about being hard done by and terrible sacrifice and heartache, but most of it is ego driven. You were forced to merge with the enemy, plain and simple where their would be no winners. Forced to wear that dreaded RED color that was the devil in disguise. Throw your graphs in the 86 file, or wallpaper your house...you are gainfully employed with great benefits to support you and your family. Did you see yourself retiring with team red? Not in the darkest places of your mind, but that's the painful reality of aviation. It's interesting how over 3000 pilots seemed to get the short end of the stick. Nobody is happy to merge with the enemy and now having to pretend to be spooning on the couch. It's not right, fair, reasonable, blah, blah blah. Those of us on the outside, see you as lucky, I suggest you look at that glass of water carefully and call it half full !

brucelee

21st Feb 2006, 12:02

Saltaire.
I think you hit the nail on the head. To some, the bad blood that was there for decades will never go away. They have brought it over as part of the package. The architects of this so-called merger greatly underestimated the "better dead than red" attitude of the blue side. On the surface, most of the former Canadian employees are quite pleasant and seem to have taken this whole mess quite well. It's only when people like the cat hater pop up that we realize what lies beneath. AC employees were forced to accept a lower standard of living while the other side, at the very least, maintained theirs if not improving it. That is fact. The cat hater can spin it any way he wants. This so-called merger will go down as the greatest rape of seniority in the history of the airline industry. No wonder they have to try and spin with the whyning. Yep, they have it real bad. In the fall of 2000, their CEO came on national tv and stated that Canadian had no more money. He stated that for all intents and purpose, they were out of business. I will never forget that moment. I immediately saw a merger in the making and my greatest fear was confirmed a short time later when Robert Milton announced we were "paying their bills" to keep them afloat. That's all in the past now. To use a quote out of ancient Rome, as the cat hater would do, "we came, we saw, we conquered". Nice job. You've earned it.

Tan

21st Feb 2006, 12:02

Hey Pudy Cat,
I suggest you run to the future, cause your bankrupt past that would have folded into never, never land would have given you jack. You have a job and a very decent one at that...Yes, we get the part about being hard done by and terrible sacrifice and heartache, but most of it is ego driven. You were forced to merge with the enemy, plain and simple where their would be no winners. Forced to wear that dreaded RED color that was the devil in disguise. Throw your graphs in the 86 file, or wallpaper your house...you are gainfully employed with great benefits to support you and your family. Did you see yourself retiring with team red? Not in the darkest places of your mind, but that's the painful reality of aviation. It's interesting how over 3000 pilots seemed to get the short end of the stick. Nobody is happy to merge with the enemy and now having to pretend to be spooning on the couch. It's not right, fair, reasonable, blah, blah blah. Those of us on the outside, see you as lucky, I suggest you look at that glass of water carefully and call it half full !

You don’t know half the crap coming from the ex-cdn pilots drowning in their own self pity. The Vancouver base is the typical Trojan horse scenario. IMHO the base should be down-sized immediately to clean up this sick sleaze pool of malcontents..

meaw

21st Feb 2006, 14:06

I Hate Cats,

Your graphs and numbers are utter nonsense.Because we were forced to save you from bankruptcy in 1999 I am now 600 seniority numbers junior to my original number when I got hired.After 2 years at AC i could hold the 767 and by know was looking at 320 Captain.Instead?I just got back from my tour of duty on the CRJ making less than FA and coming within spitting distance of having to relocate to the desert.And you know the funny thing is that the CRJ courses were full of OAC pilots getting downgraded while the 767 and 340 classes next door were ex-CP FO's and Captain's upgrading from the 737.
At the same time 30 320 captains on my base were downgraded back to FO's while you 737 guys were upgrading to the 320.
Your numbers are total sh...t!As Brucelee says they mean SFA to the guys like us that had to sell our houses,loose our positions,expatriate ourselves while you guys won the lottery and still bitch about it.
Tell me the exact number of CP guys that got downgraded to the CRJ?That got laid off?That are making less money today than pre-merger?None.
You won the lottery Mr.I hate cats,now why dont you have the decency to just go and gloat in private and stop pissing on us.You cheated and you won,is that not enough?You guys should all be in the sand box or in asia with the poor ex C3 guys but instead you are at the top of the list at our airline,one we loved,were proud to be a part of,and spent years and years TRYNG TO GET INTO.The only saving grace is that you guys are so old most of you will be retired soon.

I hate cats

21st Feb 2006, 15:34

re-read CIRB decision 925, paragraphs 18 - 21, and then tell us again who sanctioned the Teplitsky process.

flyr4hire: Can you copy and paste this? Im sure it would be interesting reading.

I'd love to see those court-case winning ACPA merger charts and graphics too. Oh, thats right, ACPA hasnt won any court cases or CIRB decisions in years. My bad. ;)

Once again to Brucelee and his OAC friends, given your hate and invective directed towards Canadian Pilots, why would they unify with you?

Why would they trust you?

Why would they vote with you?

Wouldnt it be easier to vote "yes" for a wage deal this summer and avoid another seniority exercise in the fall of 2006?

I hope your expectations for the wage negotiations arent as high as your merger expectations because you will be disappointed by the low-ball offer from Air Canada this summer.

Perhaps more concessions like the 777 agreement? :ok:

flyr4hire

21st Feb 2006, 17:38

I Hate Cats:

as it is common for OCP types to see, read, and understand only what they want to know, i am refraining from pasting an entire document here for your sake, just look through all your propoganda, charts, etc etc ( garbage ), and read that decision CIRB 925, paragraphs 18-21.

My only reason for enforcing that read is in response to your question to "Brucelee" about sanctioning the Teplitsky hearings, who did? The answer will stare you right in the face, but please no selective reading or interpretations. Your camp is running scared Cats, and that unfortunately for you is the real reality.

Mulligan

21st Feb 2006, 18:49

You guys aren't going to start drawing cartoons of each other are you...?

brucelee

21st Feb 2006, 19:29

I would suggest that no matter how good a presentation the OAC provided, it never stood the proverbial snowball's chance because a certain judge made his decision even before we stood before him? Let's not kid ourselves, this was a highly political, mob style decision and I make no qualm about it. I think Keller should stand up to some very serious questions but of course that will not happen. Never mind the wine and cheese party, this whole thing was wrigged even before that. Why else would Keller even go that party and admit it? The OCP even waisted their time with the fancy charts. All they had to do was show up. I'm also curious the way they expect us just accept all this and move on while they didn't accept the original Mitchnik award which slightly favoured us. I still maintain that life at the evil empire will continue, not as good as it could have been, but good none the less. And after this next and final decision from the CIRB, if the Gucci boys win, I'm sure there will be more wine and cheese to go around.

I hate cats

23rd Feb 2006, 16:23

Thats typical kindergarten logic Brucelee. OAC, having no evidence of wrongdoing, no proof of any defect in rulings against them then stand up and exclaim 'The system is corrupt, everyone is against us!'

Trouble is, you havent brought anything forward to prove your statements. Life in denial of reality must truly suck.

Back to original question now.

How will the wage-negotiation go this summer? Badly for you Im afraid Brucelee because there is no unity within your 'union' and without unity a 'union' has no power. No power in this case means no wage increase because AC managemant is so good and your ACPA are clowns.

This is how it will work:

Air Canada low-balls ACPA, maybe even asks for wage roll-backs to match wage decreases on similar equipment in the US. Air Canada throws in a 'position group' tweak to get PG pilots to vote yes

ACPA says no. It goes to arbitration. The wage arb comes back split down the middle between the two positions. 'No big wage increase for you Brucelee' says the Soup Nazi (sorry for the Seinfeld reference). In fact ACPA is lucky to hold on to what they got. Nobody is happy.

A week before the vote, your Flight Ops VP puts out a memo saying: Ive received many Emails from pilots saying they will vote no as a seniority protest. I urge all pilots to vote on the merits of the new wage agreement and not as a seniority protest. or maybe it gets leaked on a forum?

Canadian Pilots see this, hold their noses and vote yes to avoid another ACPA plot. Every other pilot who is tired of the seniority fight votes yes and your wage increase opportunity is a thing of the past. PG pilots vote yes

See how lack of unity in a 'union' really sucks Brucelee? See how screwing a portion of your membership last summer can come back to haunt you?

I know youre in denial so Im sure you will come up with some clown-like response about my propaganda. Whatever. Im not trying to convince you because Ive run circles around you already and you keep coming back for more.

What I am trying to do is illustrate a cautionary tale to anyone who reads this forum about how badly a union can stray from the ideal and how damaging it is when union leaders lose the trust of their membership. ACPA is a mess IMO and AC management isnt. You ACPA guys will lose this summer, its just a matter of how badly.

Flyer 1492

23rd Feb 2006, 20:22

Well this has been an interesting thread. I wonder how many pilots at AC (OAC & CP), have looked at the retirement lists. Over the next ten or so years AC will lose around 1400 pilots. That does not include the numerous failed medicals etc. So factor in around... 200 more. Why don't you pilots grow up and try to get along, it makes for a better work enviroment. Otherwise you will fight this fight until the last pilot from the merged list retires and your off spring take up the fight.

Just my opinion.

brucelee

23rd Feb 2006, 22:59

I hate pussy(cats).
What more proof do you need? Keller unknowingly admitted to coming to your "wine and cheese taste" to one of our pilots. When the big cheese at the CIRB found out, she claimed that this would not affect his decision. Who are we trying to kid here. That's the most blatent conflict of interest I've ever heard of. This is not top secret. It's now public information. You guys have figured out that you don't even need to show up at the hearings anymore. It's just a waist of time isn't it? You know who's on your side. To answer your other question, I am not priveledged to have the charts the way you do. But like I said, I don't need them. I have felt the full effect of your rape on me through real life experience. You should be ashamed of yourself cat-hater. You're the one who should be losing sleep at night but instead you come on this forum taunting AC pilots knowing full well our chances at fairness are next to none. You are the lowest scum of human kind. It's no wonder the OAC don't think much of you.
Flyer 1492.
Please, unless you work here, you just have no clue. If you do work here, shame on you too. But thanx for tryin'.

Flyer 1492

23rd Feb 2006, 23:22

Brucelee,

Your right I don't work for the mainline, and I am glad I don't. I have watched this latest episode of how the OAC's have been screwed again. When will you people ever learn. You don't own anything. I have enough friends that work as pilots for the mainline, and hear it from them. Just ask yourselves, how much have we paid out in lawyer fees so far. Mergers are not fair to everyone, I know because I have been thru 3 so far. Most times I have taken the hit, but I have lived with it.

Flyer 1492

brucelee

24th Feb 2006, 00:30

Flyer.
I hear ya. I and many other OAC will live with this merger too. We have no choice. Although you're wrong by saying we don't own anything. When hired at AC, you own a seniority number. When someone takes that away, it's called stealing. A little screwing I can live with. But I can't live with several hundred numbers of loss of seniority. I have said many times that despite it all, we still have it good. But at AC seniority not only defines your daily life but even what life will be like into retirement. If we were men and women with no principles, no dignity, this would not be an issue. But egos aside, we have dignity and mouths to feed. Many have wanted to be here since they were old enough to walk. To take this lying down would be a big mistake. My friend who hates cats is trying to make me do just that because we need to be "unified" against management or we will not succeed as group. I agree with him, no doubt we need to be unified. But not before we try to restore fairness. We have one more shot at it. I wonder if the OCP will accept an OAC victory. Are they willing to be unified if the OAC get back a little of what we lost? Can we still be unified after that? They proved in the past that it cannot be.

Tan

24th Feb 2006, 01:13

This sickness started back in 1937 when the Canadian Government passed over the original Canadian aviation pioneers and brought in an American to run the new TCA. The poison then became part of the CP culture; surprisingly it never was part of the AC culture. It was quite a shock to the AC group when the CDN group came out with their “Better dead then Red” slogan especially as a large number of us originated from Western Canada. AC should never have bought CDN but was forced to by the Liberal Government of the day with so many ominous conditions applied that it eventually led to AC filing for CCAA.

What our fearless AC leader didn’t realize was the huge problem that would occur when he tried to merge the very poisonous CDN culture with that of AC. I could understand the hatred if the CDN folks had been placed at the bottom of our seniority list as was the norm but that wasn’t the case. In all the CDN employees won the jackpot getting trained on modern equipment with a huge pay increases and job security meanwhile the AC folks were being down graded. But that still doesn’t appear to be enough as their intent is to destroy AC from with in. The Vancouver base and their LEC is a company within themselves daring AC management to try and discipline pilots for wrong doings. It’s amazing that AC management lacks the balls to correct the situation by just downsizing the base as that precedence has already been set in the past...

I believe the poisonous posts by the CDN folks speak for themselves..

sepia

24th Feb 2006, 01:26

As an outsider it's pretty evident that the poisonous posts don't only come from one side of the fence.

Tan

24th Feb 2006, 01:33

As an outsider it's pretty evident that the poisonous posts don't only come from one side of the fence.

Hey sepia it wasn't an AC type that started this thread..

brucelee

24th Feb 2006, 01:43

Sepia.
Have a look back at who started this post and what he implied. How ironic that the merger was done the same way. Someone started something to which someone else was forced to defend themselves. Get my drift? Let me be clear (again) the employees of AC did not want this merger. Now, as we try to make the best of it, we are faced with the "let's kiss and make up because we won" attitude from the other side. It may end up that way. We may have no choice. But it ain't quite over yet. Something else they are doing if you haven't noticed. They are already blaming the OAC for any future unsuccesfull negotiations with the company. In other words, they took our seniority and then it's our fault that they can't get a payraise out of management. Brilliant!!!

lawndar

24th Feb 2006, 02:06

Ok, I have a question for the folks working at AC: Does this resentment/anger/bitterness spill over into the workplace? I understand that it has its' root there, but is it honestly a drag to go to work every day? I am sure plenty of us with applications in would like to know if we are potentially getting ourselves into a poisonous work environment.

(edited for spelling)

gumbi

24th Feb 2006, 03:43

Tell me the exact number of CP guys that got downgraded to the CRJ?That got laid off?That are making less money today than pre-merger?None.

Sorry to poop your party meaw, but I personnally know of one...(CRJ)

brucelee

24th Feb 2006, 10:49

Gunbi.
There is one, maybe two. Try hundreds of OAC losing hundreds of numbers. That's the point you won't get unless you work here. If we are going to have a successful merger, there can be no winners or losers. Everyone must remain equal. A protocal, BTW, that was agreed upon prior to the seniority talks even starting. Today we find ourselves with a "slightly" lobsided scenario. Sorry to poop on your party.

lawndar.
Fortunately, the two sides have managed to maintain professionalism and safety at work. Except for a rare minor incident or two, we have gotten along quite well outside of the courtroom. I have personally worked with many OCP and find them to be quite good to work with on an individual basis.

wellfedCanuck

24th Feb 2006, 18:00

Re-playing these arguments is like trying to convert a muslim to christianity. Both sides are dug in and passionate about their beliefs. There are too many yardsticks being used and the units don't convert linearly between measuring systems.

Personally, I thought Mitchnick was fair, but it's telling that arbitrator Keller thought arbitrator Mitchnick was out-to-lunch, and that arbitrator Teplitsky thinks arbitrator Keller smokes drugs.

Here's hoping that the CIRB implements Teplitsky, finding some middle ground between the previous awards.

gumbi

24th Feb 2006, 18:53

Sorry to poop on your party.

Well, it's not my party brucelee, because I don't work for AC, I was just telling meaw that, contrary to what he said, some OCP have been downgraded, and yes I know not as many as OAC.

One thing for sure, I wouldn't want to be standing in your shoes right now, and actually for the past 17 years (I'm sure glad AC didn't hire me back then!)

Good luck with everything!

brucelee

25th Feb 2006, 00:10

Tree

25th Feb 2006, 02:27

[QUOTE=Tan] surprisingly it never was part of the AC culture. It was quite a shock to the AC group when the CDN group came out with their “Better dead then Red” slogan especially as a large number of us originated from Western Canada.

So Mr. Tan, just what was the culture of those people in AC pilot uniforms marching at Ottawa and chanting "let Canadi>n die"?

Discerning minds want to know.

gumbi

25th Feb 2006, 02:34

hey Gumbi.
Some OCP have been downgraded? I don't call going from a 737 to an airbus downgraded. I certainly don't call right seat 767 to left seat airbus downgraded. The only "downgrading" happened when we lost the 747's and the Gucci boys had to settle for the big bus or the 767.
The past 17 years? Pretty good as far as the old boys retiring tell us. The only people that keep writing us off are those who never made it here. That's ok, I can sort of understand that.
Hey look, I know this may come as a surprise, but nobody's quitting and lots are still coming over (10-20 a month). Crazy? No. Like I said, still the best gig in town.

Sorry you took it like that brucelee, my intentions were actually friendly, but I guess you didn't get that... One more thing you didn't get is that, no matter what you think and have been told over the years, AC is not for everybody (meaning we don't necessarily ALL want to work there, is that so hard to undertstand?) Some of us are actually happy NOT to work for AC, really!!!

Anyways, for what it's worth, I still mean what I said... All that merger hoopla going on must really be a drag, for all of you, and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, for whatever reasons!

And, yes, I know of an ex-737 captain that now flies the RJ!

Tree

25th Feb 2006, 02:41

brucelee;

At the 1999 point the asm cost at AC was 17 cents and at CDN it was 14 cents (Westjet was 13 cents). Had CDN gone the CCAA route it would have exited with an asm of 10 cents. Do you see where this is going? Is it your position that CCAA was the exclusive privilege of AC?

ALL of the factual information shows that every OAC pilot has a better career with the merger than without.

brucelee

25th Feb 2006, 13:28

Yes, of course, I understand. Canadian did me a real favour. OK bro.

meaw

25th Feb 2006, 13:35

Gumbi,

The only way an ex 737 skipper is on the CRJ is because he screwed up his bid or did it voluntarily.To have been a 737 captain he must have had at least 15 years seniority and there is no way he was downgraded there by force.The only ex CP guys on the CRJ were there as Captains making 100K per year and were ex 737 FO's that wanted to be senior or wanted the left seat.I know because I was on it and the CRJ community is a small one.
Get your facts straight.

brucelee

25th Feb 2006, 14:27

There are a couple ex CRA (not OCP) guys on the RJ. That whole CRA thing is a story itself, as if the OCP rape wasn't enough, those two or three whent ahead in seniority on the RJ compared to the OAC senior RJ pilots. The only OCP guy (737) on the RJ , bid the RJ for seniority. I know cause I flew with him. He was number one guy on the RJ, now he is number one on the EMB. He could very well be on bigger equipment making more money but has CHOSEN not to. You guys that have these ex OCP or ex CRA friends in the company have been sold the sob stories. Ask them more questions. Get the real story. The whyning tactic has worked very well for these guys. Ask them how much money they were making before the "merger" and how much they are making now even with the cuts. Ask them why it is that the majority of them will get to fly the 777 long before most OAC pilots will. Carefull though, the answers they give you will have some "poor me" line in it.

sepia

25th Feb 2006, 18:50

Brucelee: Opposed to the "poor me" attitude that you come across with?

I think everyone on this forum gets it. You've all been delt the worlds greatest injustice. Woe is you.

brucelee

25th Feb 2006, 18:58

Oh ya, one more thing, when the "poor me" thing doesn't work, they resort to smart ass comments.

c150driver

26th Feb 2006, 13:34

Quit whining guys...none of this will matter when you go bankrupt again!:ugh:

trek1982

26th Feb 2006, 13:36

OAC have you ever thouhgt that it might be your past that is coming
back to haunt you..

For screwing the life of real people for the last 40 years. For
taking your union gains over the life of the FA or ramp agent at your own
company. for making your junior pilots pay with a B scale to keep the senior guys happy

For lowering the bar in canadian aviation just for the fun of
screwing the life of Jazz pilots.

for screwing the public opinion that AC have the best pilots in the
world and that you need great experience and many hours to work there.
The hiring boom starts and you're hiring 1500h cessna caravan pilots.
You are a disgrace to the sport. You have the lowest hiring standard
of all canadian 705 operator. 1000h no sim ride.

for screwing canadian pilots to work hard and build some time to be
good enough to fly the big jet. When you have enough, they hire the
lowest time guy.

For discrimating the Jazz group to take pay cuts and layoff for your
ACE group but when ACE goes better you people won't benefit from it.
let's hire from the street.

even if you would be loosing 10 000 seniority numbers over an
arbitration you will not make anybody cry for you people who have screwed aviator fellows for the last 40 years..

just to let you know before you answer the easy way that I am frustrated cause I got refuse at Ac, I am a heavy captain making a decent living and who never applied to AC. It's just the way canadian pilots feel about you...

nolimitholdem

26th Feb 2006, 13:48

brucelee,

with the bitterness you're holding on to, I don't think you should have to worry endlessly about your hundreds of lost seniority numbers...your medical will never make it anywhere near retirement anyway.

God, I still meet people in the terminal who answer every "How's it going?" with "Not bad for a guy who got screwed out of 20 years of seniority"...how absolutely, tragically pathetic.

You say you "own" a seniority number. What bull****. It's a system set up by a employer, nothing more. The company, the industry, and life don't owe you OR THE OCP BOYS a friggin' thing. Perhaps that is why the arbitrators rule against OAC...they like most of the Canadian public can;t stomach the stench of entitlement.

This war is all about envy, greed, and demographic warefare. Why is it the loudest mouthpieces in the OAC camp seem to fit a certain profile: 30-something fastburners who've seen their rapid career progession slow down postmerger? Oh boo ******* hoo, the guy who "could hold the 767 within two years" when he was hired. Yet the OCP guys are (as alluded to elsewhere) in the main, people who have already done the bulk of their careers elsewhere, usually at several different carriers. I know full well the young guns at AC would have been quite happy to see the OCP guys struggling in Asia or at Home Depot, may the shoe never be on the other foot.

Lastly, I think people are sick to death of hearing the OAC whining about how "it was always their dream to work at AC, they worked towards it since before they could walk"...news flash..that doesn't make you special or exalted. Many, many people would trade your hard-done by status for theirs in a hearbeat.

brucelee

26th Feb 2006, 14:27

nolimit.
I'ts the young thirtysomething guys that stand more to lose. Everything you say is opinion only and that's fine, you're entitled. Thanx for coming, have a nice day.

flyr4hire

26th Feb 2006, 15:54

Trek:
I guess that would explain why AC has thousands of cv's on file and there are countless forum threads on "getting on" , "what's the protcol", "when's the next G/S?", etc etc. I think you understand where i am going with this?. Add to that the 60,000 - 70,000 pax per day, must really suck that poor old AC?
With many of my personal friends at AT, whom are happy to be there and make a good living, they still say the would have prefered to go with AC. Does this make them "bad" or "less qualified"? Absolutely not, it's the luck of the draw. So don't chastise the pilots who are here for hiring policies for which we have no direct control of. Your argument about 1500 hour Caravan pilots holds no water. In Europe, for many many years, they have run AB initio programs and thrown 200 hour pilots in right seats of airliners. Happens all the time. 1500 , 15000, or 150,000 hours means nothing if one have a s_ _tty attitude.
As for the Jazz stuff you talk about, i was once a Jazz pilot, many moons ago, and i am happy to say i took the opportunity to join the mainline when it came up. Jazz pilots would hassle me about staying or leaving. My answer was simple and direct. I started flying with one dream. To fly for a major airline. I would be kidding myself any everyone else if i said i wanted to fly regionals for life. All that to say i know the inner workings of the Jazz plight, or should i say the Original Air Ontario Pilots, and you would be foolish to believe that they aren't looking out for their own benefits. It not only happens in aviation but in every other aspect of corporate Canada and for that matter, the World.
If you're happy where you are , good for you, because we are happy where we are too, albeit being screwed over in the seniority battle. I'm still happy to go to work and do the best i can.
Cheers

trek1982

26th Feb 2006, 16:34

thank you flyr4hire I like a good discussion...

what I can see from outside is that in every aspect of your company everything is based on working one group against another.

My point of view is that most of you guys are so busy liking their own belly that they forget to keep in mind the profession.

Your company is using such easy to understand methods to defeat you... you guys are just jumping in the game...

It's so obvious what they're doing. my son works for Jazz so lets take that exemple..I have a little bit of info.

Right now Mainline is hiring like crazy, the guys from jazz have taken pay cuts, layoff for ace and now you are hiring from outside.. You guys are thinking wow we are winning again.... WRONG.

ACE is winning. It's impossible to piss off more a Jazz guy than to play with his career... What can he do about it...??? The only thing he can do is be prepare to fight as hard has he can to win the Embraer in 2009. That's the only way he will improve his career.

Who's winning again... ACE the race to the botom is on and on.

It's easy for you or me sitting in the big metal making a decent life to just ignore those people but have you ever been discriminated in your life...!!!

Did you know that the only people in canada for wich it is impossible to get an interview at mainline at right now is for the guys that were on layoff at Jazz.

They have to wait for a seniority number to get an interview, they see every months people that didn't give anything to ACE in the past will have the best numbers at AC, get the promotions, the captain seat.

That is just 1 exemple of many we could talk about... Just don't tell me your union can't do nothing about it.. Your company is discriminating so many good people, they are just getting them sharp for the next game and you people are just sitting watching the best Player (ACE) putting his cards down on the table and winning again.

same with OAC vs OCP; one vs the other: you are all loosing...

no disrespect to you people just don't think ACPA is a really good player, just playing very short term shots

brucelee

26th Feb 2006, 16:44

I rarely even think about seniority at work. It's only when I come home and read some instigating threads that I have any thoughts about it. Of course it's my own damn fault, I don't blame anybody. I go on line, read the thread and then foolishly get caught up in the circus. I work at a great place, and fly some real nice airplanes. Most times I don't even think about who I work for, just enjoy the work. That's reality. For those of you who work at some other fine companies, and Canada has some, good on you. But don't offer opinions based on what you've heard or been told by your "buddies". Ya gotta work here to understand. I know it's easy to trash a place you will never work for. Perhaps you never wanted to work here. Perhaps you tried and it didn't happen. Whatever the case, being an expert at what you don't understand is just a waist of time. You have all witnissed how nasty things can get when one's bread and butter are at risk. That, however, is not all that AC is about.
Cheers.

trek1982

26th Feb 2006, 17:06

Bruce Lee

It's all human the emotions you feel... but what I think is that as a Pilot group we have all forgotten OUR Profession and we haven't taken a really good care of it.

We tend to forget that we are all human and we should have respect for what we do and for each other. Instead of fighting we should all work in the direction of making the future of the profession brighter.

ALPA ACPA, it's all the same thing it's all made of people who are fighting for their own pocket. If we were a little more intelligent, we would do like other profession and all work together so the 20 year old guy coming out from flying school who has spent 50 000$, has a decent pay and be able to have a house a car and a family.

Stop thinking about only yourself, before you go to sleep tonight take 30 seconds or a minute to think about my son who also had a dream of becoming the big 777 AC captain. he also invested a lot of time and effort with this red company to be victim of discrimination from your part. He is the one who has trouble sleeping at night because of us big union guys who never thinks about the future generation.

it might be your son one day...!!!!

That should be the Purpose of those BIG Union. Making life decent for our people The Entire Pilot Group in Canada.

brucelee

26th Feb 2006, 18:02

I hear you trek. Trouble is, two unions at one company can't work. That should have been fixed from day one. Some day this will all be over (soon actually). But lawyers will laugh for a long time. I do feel for those who don't make it in, especially for political reasons. I feel lucky to be here.

trek1982

26th Feb 2006, 19:41

Bruce lee

I have been reading your posts for a very long time, you seem to be a very intelligent person.

Why don't you start your day tomorow by thinking you can make a difference

you work for the most powerful employer in the country...!!!

brucelee

26th Feb 2006, 22:20

Huh?
Ok Doc. But if it doesn't work, I'm not paying you.

altiplano

26th Feb 2006, 22:28

Man you guys all have it so hard...

Keep crying - the lot of you - it suits you in your fancy outfits and cushy seats.

What a bunch of crap. I remember that the takeover could have gone either way and was almost the other way around. I remember both airlines on the edge of going under years before the merger. Really I don't give a **** about your seniority because it has nothing to do with me, but it makes me sick to hear people with some of the best jobs in our country complain like little girls.

"I know a guy he had to do a tour on the RJ"
"I won't be retirng in the top 10%"
"You shouldn't even have a job"
"You;I;You;I;You;I;You;I" Keep pointing fingers girls...:{

nolimitholdem

27th Feb 2006, 00:00

nolimit.
I'ts the young thirtysomething guys that stand more to lose. Everything you say is opinion only and that's fine, you're entitled. Thanx for coming, have a nice day.

Which is EXACTLY my point: for the most part, the most vocal OAC dissidents are the young Turks who have seen their career progression seriously impeded. To which I say: how can you consider yourself to have "lost" that which you were never, ever promised? I think this is why you will always lose in the court of public opinion, apart from the legal battles lost...

But you are correct, this goes into the realm of opinion and philosophical thoughts re: selfishness and greed. :yuk:

brucelee

27th Feb 2006, 00:29

nolimit.
I can't believe I'm still involved in this circus. I guess I will state again that it's difficult to understand unless you have been affected. So let me try just one more time. When I was hired a few short years ago, I was told captain on the bus within five years. That was just before we merged. It wasn't a promise. It wasn't a guarantee. It was merely a realistic look into the SHORT-TERM as to what I could expect from my new employer. World economics, management, terrorism, oil prices etc. all would play a part in that progress, no doubt. But the single most decisive factor which has impeded my advancement has been the merger. What do you see wrong with a thirtysomething year old airbus captain? In fact, not only did I not achieve that, I was forced onto a much smaller airplane. Even worse, yes there is even worse, is the fact that it will now take me well into my fifties before I can hold such a position. Not bad, you might say, you'll still do fine. Yes, but I could do some math for you and you would be shocked at the money I will have lost between now and then. Is the seniority thing starting to open your eyes yet? No? well, I could go on, but frankly boys and girls, I'm tiring of repeating myself. Yep, maybe I should just shut the fu*k up and accept things the way they are. After all, we're all just whyners. Nevermind money, does anybody believe in integridy anymore?
Oh and by the way, selfeshness and greed? Again I take you back in history when AC saved the many jobs that were about to be very uncertain at Canadian. Were those people ever promissed anything? Did we owe them anything? Please. Anywhere else in the world this situation would have been handled very differently. Canada, land of God given jobs. Time to go back to my real life now, it's been fun kids. See ya.

I hate cats

27th Feb 2006, 04:57

http://www.formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/images/content/lost_service_2.jpg
Brucelee,

Do you understand this graph? I know you dont want to acknowledge it but the facts are indisputable. More Canadian Pilots lost seniority than OAC pilots and yet you still attempt to sell us all on the damage thats been done to you.

Whatever your employer told you when hired is irrelevant. You are the one who is vilifying the Canadian Pilots. They did not choose to be here. Your Air Canada Board of Directors bought another company and business conditions changed because a merger occurred.

If 9/11 hadnt happened thousands of US airline pilots wouldnt be out of work today. Business conditions changed.

If SARs hadnt happened Air Canada may not have went into CCAA. But business conditions changed and it went into CCAA.

You might as well blame the whole world for your problems becuase you really cant blame the merger, SARs, 9/11 or anything else. The world changes constantly and business conditions change constantly.

Get used to it.

wellfedCanuck

27th Feb 2006, 14:46

Do you understand this graph?

Your graph is just one biased way of measuring something we all see differently. You've drawn it by comparing pilot age at each company. So you're older for your seniority and the seats you occupy, we're all sorry for you. It doesn't make your graph a smoking gun to support your case.

To take the point to a ridiculous extreme- what if we merged with a group of 59-yr-old Dash 8 captains? They could draw the above graph with a greater amplitude. Big deal. What really counts are the jobs you bring to the picnic, and you guys brought about 500 sandwiches and 1200 appetites.

royalterrace

28th Feb 2006, 00:52

"Those at AC who think you have the job of jobs you are wrong. Those at WJ who think the same you are wrong. Ask yourself only one thing. Am I happy?
Point clear?"
I'll make my point as clear as I can to you. I AM HAPPY. When I decided to live in this country, there was one thing that was very clear to me. If I lived in Britain, I would whant to fly for BA. If I lived in Germany, I would want to fly for Lufthansa. In Canada, AC is what I have chosen. No regrets. Despite CCAA, a changed contract, reduction in wages etc. I am still in good shape and that's exactly the point. Even after all that degrading stuff, I'm still happy. A benefit of organized labour and working for a major I guess. As far as WJ goes, my view is that many egos were inflated there after 9/11 when flag carriers took a hit and the low cost phenomenon literaly took off. Pilots there became millionaires because their stocks whent balistic. Newspapers couldn't say enough good stuff about them. But just as we all knew, with time AC would survive and return to profitability. Others would have smoldered in the flames of CCAA. Looking ahead, there's much to be positive about in both companies. But at the end of the day, the benefits of the major carrier are unmatched. Period. For those who chose not to go to AC, I understand and admire your decision. For those who failed to get to AC, don't waist my time with your bitterness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by brucelee : 13th September 2005 at 01:24.
Reading through this thread it seems a lot has changed.

I hate cats

1st Mar 2006, 17:37

You've drawn it by comparing pilot age at each company. So you're older for your seniority and the seats you occupy, we're all sorry for you. It doesn't make your graph a smoking gun to support your case.

There are no references to age/demographics. If there are, show me.

The graph compares Pre merger seniority # - read bottom in comparison with Keller Award seniority (the list OAC doesnt like because it wants more seniority) and graphs the difference as years gained/lost - read left side.

Since both unions have to show up at the arbitration(s) with a certified pre-merger seniority list the Pre merger seniority # cannot be disputed. All parties (AC-ALPA-ACPA) accept the data when they enter arbitration.

The years gained/lost compares the difference between the two pre-merger lists and the Keller list. The Keller list is also published and known to all parties.

How can the data in the graph be manipulated?

Who won the seniority battle here and who lost?

With the exception of two small groups of Canadian Pilots around seniority 50 and seniority numbers 1000 every other pilot in the Canadian Pilot Group lost seniority.

Ask yourself why the Original Air Canada Group wont present any data to support their arguements.

Answer: Because they have no data to support their arguements. Thats why they lose at the CIRB and the courts consistently.

wellfedCanuck

2nd Mar 2006, 00:46

Pardon me, yes, directly your graph compares DOH, ergo indirectly it compares age. Yes, you were merged with pilots who were hired after your date. However, that's only one yardstick and the one that conveniently advances your case.

Using the other yardstick, those younger pilots brought higher-ranking jobs to the merger. For example, at the time of merger, fifteen years of service at Air Canada comfortably held A320C and pilots with as little as 5 years of service were holding that seat.

At CAIL, 15 years generally held right seat of the A320 with the junior YZ B767F hired November 2, 1987. Your junior YZ B737 Captain was hired March 31, 1980. Our junior DC9 Captain was hired January 20, 1997, less than 4 YOS. Same job, demographically two decades apart.

To merge DOH or LOS would give the CAIL pilots a significant leg up at the expense of the OAC pilots. Pre-merger, all parties agreed that the goal was to preserve pre-merger career expectations. Even with a less-than-YOS award, over the past three years CAIL pilots have realized career advancement. Many of the aformentioned CAIL F/Os have taken A320 left seats while OAC pilots have stagnated or slid backwards.

So, to answer your question- it appears that your side "won the seniority battle" at our expense.

I hate cats

3rd Mar 2006, 00:02

Even with a less-than-YOS award, over the past three years CAIL pilots have realized career advancement. Many of the aformentioned CAIL F/Os have taken A320 left seats while OAC pilots have stagnated or slid backwards.
So, to answer your question- it appears that your side "won the seniority battle" at our expense.

http://formercanadianpilots.ca/site/ALPA_88/images/content/top%20ten%20percent%20-%202.jpg

If your hypothesis was correct it would be reflected in the above chart. But your statement is not correct.

Premerger, the both groups could expect 70% of their respective pilot groups to retire in the top 10% of the seniority list.

If the Keller list gave advantage to the Canadian Pilot group you would expect more than 70% of Canadian Pilots to retire in the top 10% of the combined list. The seniority advantage with the Keller List is with the Original Air Canada pilots because more OAC Pilots make it to the high paying positions available in the top 10% of the seniority list more often. As the chart illustrates OAC pilots make it to the top 10% of the list 6% more often, and the Canadian Pilots make it to the top of the list 14% less often.

The OAC pilots want to have a seniority advantage today with a ratio list, and they want to have the ability to capture the retirements of the older Canadian Pilot group also. That is exactly what has happened as the chart shows.

The challenge the OAC pilots face is to get anyone to believe they have been disadvantaged by the merger when the evidence clearly doesnt support this view.

brucelee

3rd Mar 2006, 01:09

Ryalterrace.
You whent through all that trouble but you obviously "missed" my threads #58 on page three or how about #4 on page one. There are many others. My references to my job satisfaction are unmatched on this forum. I'll spare the good folks on this forum the boring stuff and since this is between you and me, I invite you to have a quik look at them and then tell me if your thread on this page was really worth it.:ok:
Oh and hey, congradulations on your new contract. A little bird told me that you guys are no longer relying on the profit sharing thing since there is'nt much profit to share anymore, and are on good old fashioned salaries like the rest of us. If this is true, my predections are all coming true. Now I understand why there's so much secrecy. Still though, $160 grand a year for capt of a 737 is'nt so bad. But that pretty much illiminates any future millionaires and paid-off mortgages I guess. Happy trails, partner.

wellfedCanuck

3rd Mar 2006, 01:49

It's not a hypothesis, it's fact. Even a cursory glance at the last few equipment bids illustrates this effect.

{Okay, list deleted due to libel chill. Supporting evidence available via email to those in possession of the secret-decoder ring.}

Take a look at the junior blue pilot in this seat, Paul Arends. Pre-merger (EAB35) he held A320F at 70% and couldn't touch B767F, let alone a left seat anywhere in the CAIL system. However, the junior red pilot above, Orrett Williams, was already a DC-9 C at 87%. Five years later, Williams has moved very little while Arends has magically gained enough seniority to be an A320C. A320F to A320C at the stroke of an arbitrator's pen......not a bad little gain, eh?

This is not an isolated occurrence. Similar comparisons can be made all up and down the Keller list. In effect, that award was the ultimate "buy now, pay later" deal for the blue side. Sure, you may suffer slightly near the tail end of your career, but most of your side will reap the benefits for 15 or more years before paying the piper.

Personally, I'd rather be where I was pre-merger than hang my hat on the last 3 years of my career. With age-60 being revisited and the uncertainties of personal health, nobody on the red side can ever count on collecting your "top of the list" uplift.