El Al Airlines installs anti-missile systems on passenger aircraft [Archive]

armada

17th Feb 2006, 01:48

Ummm, let me check the QRH for bogies at 12 o'clock... :ooh:

El Al Airlines installs anti-missile systems on passenger aircraft
Reuters | February 16 2006

El Al Israel Airlines has installed anti-missiles systems on its passenger aircraft, completing an overhaul launched after a 2002 attempt to shoot down a plane, security sources said on Wednesday.
They said the "Flight Guard", an Israeli-made system costing around $1 million per unit, was operational on the entire El Al fleet. It was not immediately clear if this applied to five planes leased by El Al as well as its own 29 aircraft.
El Al, Israel's national carrier and largest airline, declined to comment, saying it did not discuss security issues.
Israel stepped up efforts to adapt military anti-missile systems for its civilian aircraft after an Israeli charter jet came under attack from shoulder-held missiles in Kenya in 2002.
The missiles, fired by attackers linked to al-Qaida, missed.
Flight Guard was developed by state-owned Israel Military Industries and the Elta defense firm - a unit of state owned Israel Aircraft Industries. El Al began installing the system in its planes in 2004

captjns

17th Feb 2006, 07:56

ELAL has been the inovator in aviation security. Yeah... jokes have been made of them in the past... but how many of their jets have been hi-jacked? A number of carriers in the world have adopted ELAL's security scheme as well.

Not just limited to airlines, but every one has the right to take what ever measures necessary to protect themselves from these god damned Al-Qaida animals who proclaim in the name of Allah the "Infidels must die"!

Right on ELAl! Give these bastards something to think about!

Clandestino

17th Feb 2006, 21:58

:eek:

Oh my, it's automatic flare dispenser!
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/systems/flight_guard/Flight_Guard.htm

Doug the Head

18th Feb 2006, 09:15

The Israelis have always been several steps ahead of Europe and the US regarding security and intelligence gathering,s so obviously they´re on to something...

Let´s wait until the first western airliner is blown out of the sky by a second hand Stinger bought on the black market, maybe then our naive politicians/lawmakers will wake up to reality. :{

DME MILOS

18th Feb 2006, 09:46

The domestic and safety side of this equipment will raise issues, you can't just park an aircraft armed with flares in the middle of an international airport...

captjns

18th Feb 2006, 09:55

The domestic and safety side of this equipment will raise issues, you can't just park an aircraft armed with flares in the middle of an international airport...

Why not? Think about it... fuel is combustable... isn't it? A fuel truck or aircraft not properly grounded during fueling operations can lead to an explosion.

You have more hazards surrounding airports than these anti missle cannisters which are designed to produce heat in a localized area. They are nothing more than roadside flares except they produce heat. The flame does not provide thrust.

davedek

18th Feb 2006, 09:55

The domestic and safety side of this equipment will raise issues, you can't just park an aircraft armed with flares in the middle of an international airport...

Sounds like they have been doing exactly that for some time, seeing as installation on the fleet began in 2004.

DME MILOS

18th Feb 2006, 10:10

Sounds like they must have got around the issue and organised remote parking at their destinations then.

captjns

18th Feb 2006, 10:40

Sounds like they must have got around the issue and organised remote parking at their destinations then.

Not true. Business as usual at JFK. They park at normal gates at all airports they fly to.

DME MILOS

18th Feb 2006, 11:00

Must be a very understanding airport manager then, I wouldn't like my aircraft on the next stand being refuelled with potentially live flares capable of firing 20 yards away.

Vizcaya

18th Feb 2006, 11:15

El Al always has a way of bending the law/safety in the name of ´self defence.´

Just look at the El Al 747 crash in AMS 15 years ago! :suspect:

captjns

18th Feb 2006, 11:44

El Al always has a way of bending the law/safety in the name of ´self defence.´

Just look at the El Al 747 crash in AMS 15 years ago! :suspect:

Let me see if I understand your opinion correctly.... what your'e saying is that if an airline experiences a tragic loss, or has an accident, it's solely because they bend the law and have no regard to safety.

Wow! I never thought of that! Wow! Well I guess according to you, I guess your real name must be GARP, in keeping in line with your ideas that must mean every airline... such as British Airways, Air France, American, Delta, Korean, China Airlines, JAL... to name a few are all bending the law and have no regard to safety. You present your thoughts to ICAO in Montreal. Damn, you must be a Rhodes Scholar, or is it Road's Skoller:confused: ... I guess.

u no hoo

18th Feb 2006, 11:58

the plethora of arms with militant outfits popping up everyday need to be tackled in advance..... i for one will insist this protection in aircraft flying to Kashmir !

Ummm, let me check the QRH for bogies at 12 o'clock... :ooh:

El Al Airlines installs anti-missile systems on passenger aircraft
Reuters | February 16 2006

El Al Israel Airlines has installed anti-missiles systems on its passenger aircraft, completing an overhaul launched after a 2002 attempt to shoot down a plane, security sources said on Wednesday.
They said the "Flight Guard", an Israeli-made system costing around $1 million per unit, was operational on the entire El Al fleet. It was not immediately clear if this applied to five planes leased by El Al as well as its own 29 aircraft.
El Al, Israel's national carrier and largest airline, declined to comment, saying it did not discuss security issues.
Israel stepped up efforts to adapt military anti-missile systems for its civilian aircraft after an Israeli charter jet came under attack from shoulder-held missiles in Kenya in 2002.
The missiles, fired by attackers linked to al-Qaida, missed.
Flight Guard was developed by state-owned Israel Military Industries and the Elta defense firm - a unit of state owned Israel Aircraft Industries. El Al began installing the system in its planes in 2004

captjns

18th Feb 2006, 12:03

Good for you u no hoo

You can't trust anyone to even come near your aircraft unsupervised in any of these fourth world countries!

Vizcaya

18th Feb 2006, 13:03

Let me see if I understand your opinion correctly.... what your'e saying is that if an airline experiences a tragic loss, or has an accident, it's solely because they bend the law and have no regard to safety. I would certainly think that installing highly explosive flares on commercial jetliners and then parking them on a normal apron next to other aircraft is a safety hazard, especially during refueling! What´s your opinion?

RatherBeFlying

18th Feb 2006, 13:21

I guess that means we have to unpack all the door slide/rafts and pull out the flares from the survival equipment:}

It seems from the helicopter downings in Iraq that the bad guys don't restrict themselves to IR seekers:uhoh:

captjns

18th Feb 2006, 13:22

No more explosive than jet fuel... or the explosive squibs on Engine or APU fire extinguisher bottles... or Oxygen.. or Chemical Oxygen generators.

The most hazardous materials on commercial aircraft today is the food and coffee.

luoto

18th Feb 2006, 13:56

Would these not need permission as "weapons" (albeit defensive) when going into different airspaces?

the heavy heavy

18th Feb 2006, 14:14

:O I guess that means we have to unpack all the door slide/rafts and pull out the flares from the survival equipment:}

It seems from the helicopter downings in Iraq that the bad guys don't restrict themselves to IR seekers:uhoh:

don't know very much about anti ir mx flares do u chap!

when i had them strapped to my first jet we treated them with the upmost respect. they were made safe with pins, like gear pins, that were removed by the groundcrew in a designated arming area. and i seem to remember that we didn't arm them electrically till we were airborne (was 8 years ago so i may be confused). I think the issue is not having defensive aids but how they are armed and safed.

u drop some flares or chaff on a busy pan at a major airport and you'll hurt some people, no doubt.

as for your expert anaylasis of the bad guys tactics. we'll be safe when we have jamming pods, flares, chaff and a handy stealth mode making us invisible from the stolen zsu sitting at the end of runway! next thing you know we'll be painting the jets grey and giving them sharks teeth:O

Frangible

18th Feb 2006, 14:23

Does anyone know if the system has JAA or FAA certification? Surely such systems have to be certificated, and if they are not, is it legal to fly into ICAO airports with them installed?

If a plane can be downed by a couple of old O2 generators popping themselves on (ValuJet DC9) and starting a fire, how much more hazardous are real pyrotechnics like the flares in the Flight Guard system?

The anti-missile systems under study in the US and UK for possible installation on airliners are based on infra-red jamming because the flare option has been rejected as hazardous to the aircraft, regardless of whether the flares would pose fire hazards on the ground. Rumour states some airliners have jamming systems based on BAE's ALQ 144 already, e.g. one or two with Qantas, Singapore and Royal Jordanian, probably the fleet aircraft that double as their “air force ones”. A few top CEO business jets have them too.

Some more facts on the legality of the Israeli and all the other anti-missile systems currently in operation would be welcome here.

DME MILOS

18th Feb 2006, 17:02

[QUOTE=the heavy heavy]:O

when i had them strapped to my first jet we treated them with the upmost respect. they were made safe with pins, like gear pins, that were removed by the groundcrew in a designated arming area. and i seem to remember that we didn't arm them electrically till we were airborne (was 8 years ago so i may be confused). I think the issue is not having defensive aids but how they are armed and safed.

Quite right, and it's the same nowadays, flares are not the kind of things you want pointing at your own aircraft / refuellers / caterers / baggage handlers / little pink body on external check. No matter how many safety checks you have, it still only takes one wiggly amp to put a salvo across the apron, not too bad when you are remotely parked, not so good if surrounded by aircraft!
If you are going to put flares on an aircraft, you've got to adhere to some fairly stringent safety checks.

jondc9

18th Feb 2006, 17:36

TruBlu351

19th Feb 2006, 01:39

well its a start, but has anyone thought of the following scenario?
anti missile equipped plane is HIJACKED and now the USAF has trouble shooting it down?
lucky we have radar guided missiles too , right?!http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies/yeees.gif

Modern airborne launched IR missiles (eg: AIM-9X and ASRAAM) look at flares and laugh. These modern missile seekers no londer look for a point heat source like an engine which can be imitated with a flare, but they use an infra-red like TV picture.....VERY difficult to decoy unless you have the sun behind you ;)

A flare is called an IRCM (infra-red counter measure). Smart missiles have built in IRCCM (counter-counter measures). Flares would work great against old generation shoulder launched mx's around the airport.

So, modern fighters won't have issues doing their job. As mentioned, there's radar missiles too, but hey, don't forget the good old gun!! Nothing can decoy that sucker other than thick steel!!!

vapilot2004

19th Feb 2006, 03:29

Let´s wait until the first western airliner is blown out of the sky by a second hand Stinger bought on the black market, maybe then our naive politicians/lawmakers will wake up to reality.

Let's hope their eyes pop open before that nightmare begins.:ouch:

Then again........I loathe a conspiracy theorist , I do, but this may have
already happened on TWA 800.

CTR fuel tank explosion my :mad:

Then there's the unidentified missile/rocket as seen off the coast of SoCal by an AA pilot back in November.

Weren't the El-Al guys the first (non 3rd-world civilian) to carry weapons to the office?
Pre-Sept 11. We would do well to pay attention to our Israeli friends on this one.

vapilot2004

19th Feb 2006, 11:47

really then who ?

Cardinal

20th Feb 2006, 00:59

The advanced Israel Military Industries flares used by the system burn for only about 2-3 seconds, and leave only a gas with no solid or liquid residue. There is no danger of the flares hitting the ground while still alight, and they are packed in an easily secured and self-contained box which requires minimal maintenance.

A notable point from the Flight Guard link posted above.

RatherBeFlying

20th Feb 2006, 02:30

HH -- I owe you a beer if the first inadvertent flare deployment from this new kit has the kind of results as would the flares from your first jet.

Note the size of the bet -- I prefer not to lose big;)

archae86

20th Feb 2006, 04:04

really then who ?
U.S. commercial airline pilots during WW II, which was before there was a nation of Israel or its flag carrier.

vapilot2004

20th Feb 2006, 08:29

U.S. commercial airline pilots during WW II, which was before there was a nation of Israel or its flag carrier.

Never knew about that - now I have something interesting to ask my uncle about (retired TWA pilot) Thanks

Ah well then - I didn't say it but really was thinking peacetime operations.