AFPRB Signal

[comedyjock]

See attached link

http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=190#1749

[Grimweasel]

Good news for any Cpl's living in the Block then! Pay increase of 3% but food and accn increase of 3.2% thus resulting in a net pay decrease!!
Nice to see Labour are trying to Spin this one and force Cpl's into private rented accn.
Pte's / Lcpls get 3.3% so their net increase (if they live in) is ponit 1 %
Whoopee.
Now this would be nice if inflation was at 2%, but these are government figures spun out by Labour.
The Bank of England expect inflation to rise within this two year cycle to 3% before any further decreases in the rate. So this will wipe out your pay rise anyway!
Enjoy!

[LFFC]

Wow!

SFA increases of between 2% and 13.3%

SLA increases of between 5% and 14.5%

That's gonna hurt!

[Ali Barber]

Defensive comment from DCDS Pers at the end:

21. SUMMARY. SOME PERSONNEL MAY POINT TO THE SIGNIFICANT
INCREASES IN ACCOMMODATION CHARGES AND FEEL THAT THEY ARE
LITTLE BETTER OFF. GIVEN THAT THE GOVERNMENT CONSIDERED THAT
ALL PAY REVIEW BODIES SHOULD BASE THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS ON
ACHIEVEMENT OF THE INFLATION TARGET OF 2 PER CENT CONSUMER
PRICES INDEX THIS AWARD SHOULD BE SEEN AS A POSITIVE OUTCOME
FOR SERVICE PERSONNEL.

Guess he already knows how it's going to be recieved!

[thelynxeffect]

Good news for any Cpl's living in the Block then! Pay increase of 3% but food and accn increase of 3.2% thus resulting in a net pay decrease!!

Maths Lesson:

If he gets paid , say £1000 a month he'll be on about £1030 after the rise(3% 0f 1000 being 30) and his food and accn ,say £150 per month goes up by 3.2% (3.2% of 150 is 4.8) he will be charged £154.80, Net wage will increse by approx £25.20 a month, see, he's quids in!

[Hoots]

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/6D265526-082E-41F7-B959-CFDA341C3CBA/0/afprb_rpt_2006.pdf
Here you go chaps have a full read.

[Grimweasel]

Lynx

Yes good show! This is how most people will see it. There are many variables such as the grade of accn that you live in etc. I suppose those in the new Z type will be worse off?
Have they released the MP's pay rises yet? just to see if they are still out of touch with voting public?

[Just This Once...]

Well I have read the report cover to cover. Apart from the bit about the actual pay award, I agree with all of it. Indeed, it is an accurate reflection of the poor state we are in.

It lists:

'Average Earnings Index growth for the whole economy of around 4.5 to 4.75 per cent'

and that we should get:

'3 per cent'

It also points out that an earnings growth of 4.5 to 4.75 is easily sustainable within the Treasury target of 2% inflation.

So we are all worth 1.5 to 1.75 % less than our civi-street counterparts over the coming year. Now I wonder how we can bridge that gap...

Oh and I must have missed the bit with PVR under JPA, you now get your flying pay cut in half, rather than 'just' dropping a band. Were they expecting a rush??

(e.g. old rules PVR top rate to mid rate = 12.54 per day cut, new rules = 16.90 per day cut in FP!)

[White Noise]

And i note with JPA LSA (LSSA) level 2 has now increase from 300days to qualify to 400 days. the hand qiveth and the hand taketh away !!!

[comedyjock]

"Recruitment was below target in 2004-05 and the first half of
2005-06, and was predicted to remain so in a labour market which will present challenges to the Armed Forces in the medium and longer term. Against this backdrop, retaining skilled and experienced personnel is essential but, after several years of stability, Voluntary Outflow increased in 2004-05 and the early part of 2005-06 with evidence consistently showing that the impact of operational pressures and the nature of Service life were retention-negative. Our pay comparisons indicated risks to recruitment and retention from the packages available to uniformed civilian services. Similarly, Armed Forces’ pay for 22-29 year olds was behind civilians – a crucial age group for career decisions."

"The current environment for Defence is one of continuous change against a backcloth of high on-going operational commitments"

"In recent reports, we have consistently commented on poor standards of accommodation, the message this sends to personnel about how their employer values them and the potential impact on retention. We are disappointed that delivery targets for Single Living Accommodation have slipped. We are also increasingly concerned at the vulnerability of all accommodation funding in Departmental budgetary decisions."

"MOD’s evidence pointed to morale weathering the impact of operational tempo, although Service personnel increasingly felt they were taken for granted and “undervalued” by the nation and perceived that their total remuneration package was being eroded."

"However, it noted our conclusions from our 2005 Report that pay awards had been slightly behind average pay increases for comparators and generally lower than uniformed civilian services, especially at lower ranks. MOD added that “serious discontent” with the pay award could lead to the loss of trained, experienced and difficult to replace personnel putting at risk its ability to meet Defence objectives"

"After several years of declining outflow from the Armed Forces, 2004-05 saw a 6.9 per cent increase in trained outflow (to a total of 17,600) compared to 2003-04."

"RN Aircrew manning levels and the requirement had reduced, therefore gapping14 continued. The main concerns for RN Aircrew manning were delivering required Gains to Trained Strength and the potential impact on PVR rates of withdrawal of the Financial Retention Incentive which had been in place since 2002."

Just a few quotes that seem not to back up the "increase" in pay. A quick calculation shows I will probably be £3 a month better off.

I hope the Fire fighters see this and have second thoughts about striking.

And don't forget Mr Brown will recover 40% of your pay rise in tax meaning a 1.8% rise in real terms and that if my maths is correct is below inflation

[L J R]

Comedy Jock: Think positive man!

£3 per month = a pint and a bit of Stella. Where else could you get a free Stella per month!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Comedy Jock: Think positive man!
£3 per month = a pint and a bit of Stella. Where else could you get a free Stella per month!

The Fire Service?? There they may even get 3 or 4 Stellas per month more!!:uhoh:

I cannot belive that the AFPRB highlight all the bits that are going wrong and are retention negative and still press ahead with a less than inflation pay rise, and are still trying for "commercial" rents for FQs and SLA! Did they not read their own report before making their recommendations!!

Any one know the AFPRB schedule of visits? I for one would like to be present at one of their meetings!!

[air pig]

This is what's happening in the NHS under the Agenda for Change, just watch the spin doctors on the AFPRB, saying only a small number will loose out. DO NOT BELIEVE IT !!!!

Remember the old term BOHICA or bend over here it comes again.

Review bodies :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[JessTheDog]

I never heard of the AFPRB visiting anywhere I was stationed at, and don't know of anyone that knew anyone that had spoken with these persons.

Type IV MQ - up 13%, or the best part of £600 per annum. Wipes out most of the the pay rise doesn't it? That is before the garage is paid for.

Bring on a Federation (note: not a union)...

[Rev I. Tin]

Maybe to save a bit of money on the old transport budget,the AFPRB go around with the CDT team:}
Two teams to extract the urine, and one lot don't even have to try!

You could imagine the conversation on the way back:

AFPRB: Busy?
CDT: Yeah. You?
AFPRB: Strangely no.

Wonder who cleans the minibus when they get back?

[L J R]

The last page of the report (or thereabouts) stated that they visited Northolt, High Wycombe & Benson.

I presume they got an ear-full from the guys and gals at Benson. Not sure the real story is circulating around the other two spots.

[SubdiFuge]

The first 2 are really representative of busy front line units!! What about Lyneham, Brize and Odiham, not to mention the stations with Rocks.

Seems like the visit programme was engineered to dilute the true state of the RAF.

[SlipperySlappery]

I was on the same Tristar as the AFPRB last summer en route to a certain top secret transport base somewhere in southern Iraq. First attempt aborted on the runway so fortunately they were able to get some idea of how reliable our well-resourced transport fleet is.

SS

[Almost_done]

Well this wonderful and appreciated pay rise only makes me look forward 30mths to the day I leave and get a job in the civvy world, where if I get such treatment I can up sticks and leave. Oh and please don't say the grass always looks greener, in this case it actually is, being doing some research :)

God save the RAF and the Military types in the future or are we all going to be contractalised?

My wife is a Physio, and she is fighting against the NHS system to ensure a fair pay for all Physio's in her PTC, at least she is able to fight all we can do is say thank you very much, oh, can I have another.

Personally I am against a Federation/Union for the Services, however, if we're continually to be treated this way, then roll on the Federation.

[RNGrommits]

Right
Have done my maths homework, and here is how this great pay rise will see a substantial increase in the level of comfort & financial security that my family can now afford, with me being in the top pay band for a Lt RN, living in SFA with a garage bolted to the side (anyone know if I promise not to use it any more, do I still have to pay for it?).

2005 DRP £106.90 = £39018.50 2006 DRP £110.11 = £40190.15
Pay Rise = £1171.65 After 40% tax = £702.99 = £1.926 per day

Garage charges 2005 - £248.2 2006 - £262.8 = Rise of £14.60
SFA Charge 2005 - £2628 2006 - £2969.64 = Rise of £341.64

£702.989 - (£341.64 + £14.60) =£346.35
= 94p a day pay rise.
And that is not including any changes to the CILOCT or the water bills (insufficient info).
Can anyone explain to me how I motivate those below me, & hence getting a smaller pay rise than my kingly 94p, to bother getting out of their beds in the morning, let alone volunteering for secondary duties or out of area deployments? And no doubt the private dental care I am forced to pay for my family (having been forced to move to an area with no NHS dentists - again) will go up with inflation and take a chunk of this.
I honestly pity anyone trying to bring up a family in the services, because the sacrifices we give up over our civil friends are not rewarded.

Darling, we are going to have to sell the kids!

[Lionel Lion]

3% - well didn't exactly expect any more personally. Other factors however (SFA etc) just add to the nibbling ducks............interesting comments in the report ref aircrew retention I thought.

[Two's in]

The acronym over here that best describes the AFPRB is "BOHICA"

Bend Over, Here It Comes Again

[Door Slider]

Northolt, High Wycombe and Benson? Nice to see they did not travel too far from the M25 then! I did not even see them at Benson, although thats probably cause i was in the dersert, again!!

[Spurlash2]

Let me just pay the 25% price hike to the gas people first, before I stump up to the council tax, petrol compa..(government stealth tax), car ta...(government stealth tax), water ta...(government stealth tax), tv licen...(government stealth tax)..you get the idea. Still, could be worse.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4715446.stm

[Melchett01]

Well, have to say, not exactly surprised by this. That said, having done a rough 'fag-packet' calculation I will probably benefit, but that's only because I'm a singly living in the Mess and have very low overheads.

However, I still think it's a bit of a kick in the teeth comapred with a lot of the other public sector pay packets ...... it's all very tempting to become a fireman or a teacher with their god-knows how many months off which aren't enough and then wanting a pay rise on top. Really doesn't do an awful lot to recognise everything we're going through to keep this govt's somewhat shaky policies from sinking.

And for those of you that have commented about speaking direct to the AFPRB, I wouldn't worry about what you have missed. You haven't actually missed anything. Went to a meeting with them last year out in the sand pit; very nice bunch of people, very polite and charming and did their best to say what we wanted to hear, but deep down, you always got the impression they had been pre-briefed by one of the Angel of Darkness' (President Brown) staff. They really did tow the party line whilst saying very little that would have encouraged guys on the front line.

Especially interesting was their response to 2 very valid Qs:

1. Why can't I sell up to 30 days of my unused leave back to the MOD (as the civil service can) when there is absolutley no chance of me taking it due to operational reasons.

A. The usual bollocks that it would encourage people to gaff off managing their leave and their troops' leave. No recognition of the current heavily deployed state that we have to put up with and the implications that being undermanned and over stretched has on the leave plot.

2. The govt keeps banging on about the Armed Forces being the best in the world. Why do we not have a renumeration package and attitude from them upstairs that reflects that?

A. Hurrumph yes well, compared to Australia, Zimbabwe and Outer Mongolia, rather good, yer, erm, well, you're all doing very well and we think that, hurrumph, our recommendations reflect that. Hurrumph.

Quickly followed by stony silence and a lot of 'Mmmmmmmm, yeeeessss' from the assembled throng.

So sorry to disappoint chaps, but don't expect the AFPRB to do anything to help.

[Safety_Helmut]

Southside

Don't let us down here, come and tell us how lucky we all are !

S_H

[dessert_flyer]

so the reduction in flying pay to half if you pvr, does that mean if you pvr now you go onto the next rate down, but if you pvr after April you go to half flying pay? Maybe worth getting the pvr in sooner rather than later. Wonder how that would stand up in court, different rates for different people? Next stop the solicitor me thinks

[Widger]

Cracking Toast,

Must be a slow day on the A1 for you to work all that out. If you want more money...get yourself and your subordinates promoted! (Jokeing OK, just fishing, don't go off on one about dead man's shoes etc)

Seriously though, it is interesting how in today's Torygraph the government are plugging it as an inflation busting payrise! TI suppose the real message is, that if we want to get CVF, JCA and body armour then, the pay has to stay low as it all comes out of the same budget.

The whole country is going down the pan anyway. I am just about to post agin in Jetblast on the state of the UK economy!

[SirToppamHat]

I try not to get cross on here, but my pay rise is 0.6% after tax and the huge FQ con.

AFPRB Independent Body? W:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: s.

STH

[Where R We?]

The drawdown was significantly affecting the Aircrew manning requirement but the
impact of vacant posts on operational capability was less acute than in recent years.
I wonder how much this impact has to do with the fact that we don't have as many serviceable aircraft as we used to....

The proportion of personnel changing leave plans for Service reasons22 decreased
to 44 per cent – the lowest proportion since data were first collected in 1999-2000.
How much of this is down to in-house leave management, ie leave bans or limiting the number of people allowed on leave at any one time....

2 yrs and 358 days and counting.....

[SubdiFuge]

I suggest that we all either refuse to attend this year's AFPRB visits or go and give them a load of hassle.

I think I might just do the latter.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I suggest that we all either refuse to attend this year's AFPRB visits or go and give them a load of hassle.
I think I might just do the latter.

Unfortunately as already stated it does no good. The AFPRB are thick skinned and pre-briefed with the party line, I found them to be a complete waste of time.

Roll on the federation or October 2007, whichever is soonest.

Perhaps we could all just work at a slower pace. We're not striking, just giving the MoD value for money.

[[email protected]]

Personally I am against a Federation/Union for the Services, however, if we're continually to be treated this way, then roll on the Federation.
No, go on. Sit on the fence, why don't you. :zzz:

[The Gorilla]

Almost Done

Yes if you do the proper research then I agree the grass can be greener. My payrise wef Mar 06 is 9.8%.

Did any body on here seriously expect a greater than 3% payrise?

:}

[ProfessionalStudent]

It would seem that the link is no longer available. Probably run out of money to host it...

[BigginAgain]

Here's the link to the Report:

AFPRB 2006 Bolleaux In Full (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/6D265526-082E-41F7-B959-CFDA341C3CBA/0/afprb_rpt_2006.pdf)

It's a funny thing, but only last week the Staish asked if I would take-on a major secondary duty. I guess this has made the decision that much easier.

I know it's been touched on elsewhere in the Forum, but it seems to me that one way I could offset this derisory 'increase' would be to cut my own outgoings. Membership of the Mess costs an average of about £23 per month, and presumably, relinquishment of the membership would also deny me access to the dinner nights various at a saving of about £25 a go + drinks(never quite understood why one was required to pay to attend a 'parade').

I note from the Report some disturbing information about the number of hours we work. An average of 47.3 hrs per wk worked across the services, with 71.3 hours per wk 'on duty' over the period. I know I work and am on duty for much longer periods than those. The Report says, though, that the MoD justifies this by sayng that it counts periods of mid tour rest and pre- and post- deployment leave against the average figure. Well that's OK then ...

On the subject of Leave, is it only me who finds the figures simply not believable? Av no of days leave lost = 1.7? I wold stringly advise you all to check the PSF/PMF records of your leave taken - I smell a rat. For myself, I found that at one unit where I was serving, my leave record showed I had been on leave throughout the Xmas break, including periods that I was working. When I queried this, I was first told that it must have been an admin 'error', but I subsequently heard that pressure had been brought to bear to 'improve' the Unit's leave figures as these were now a Performance Indicator.

BOHICA!

BA

[JessTheDog]

I always encouraged my flight to put in a leave application even if they knew there was no chance if it being approved. I would then provide them with a photocopy of the rejected application, in order to ensure they would be able to carry over excess leave if necessary.

This helps to counter the false situation in which personnel don't submit leave passes because they know they won't get leave at that time, which in turn contributes to the "all is rosy" picture at SHQ.

[Hoots]

On the subject of leave only 15 days automatically carried over even though got about 10 days more than that. I know that i am never going to recoup that extra 10 days so whats the point in going through the gen app and all the nause of applying for that to be carried over also. But even if i dont carry the extra over, is it recorded in the overall stats so that the powers to be get a true reflection of what is going on? Also heard that with JPA, for every week away on det you get an extra days leave, so will get more leave that you cant carry over. Another JPA ism, and i might be getting away from the original thread is that Officers and SNCO's can authorise their own leave passes, but how is a record of rejected leave going to be kept, do you have to turn yourself down? Dont get me wrong i think parts of JPA may be good, but the PMS staff still cant answer a lot of questions.

Back to AFPRB, couldnt help notice how the SUN thought we got a good deal, according to Labour spin of course, maybe they should look closer at the pay review before making sweeping statements. On the bright side the firemen have delayed any strike action, til they read more into the last minute offer from the government. The timing of the ammendments obviously targeted to give the FBU no time to consider it thoroughly, hence a delay of any talk of strike action, for a month anyway. Crafty beggers, makes me wonder whats next. Possibly a shafting for someone.

[SubdiFuge]

Hoots

Are you really saying that you are so important that the company cannot afford for you to take your leave?

Get your leave booked and make sure its taken. No excuses to have more than a few days left at the end of the year.

[SwitchMonkey]

Hoots
Are you really saying that you are so important that the company cannot afford for you to take your leave?
Get your leave booked and make sure its taken. No excuses to have more than a few days left at the end of the year.
Really? Can I come and work where you do? Most if not all the guys on my Sqn are carrying days over, many have lost some and will carry only the allowed 15. I guess we must be one of the "pinch points" :hmm:

[SubdiFuge]

If you are not getting your leave your boss is failing and you are no better. There is always something that can be dropped so leave can be taken.

Stop being martyrs and take your leave.

[FFP]

I agree with Subdifuge on this. I go in at the beginning of the year, after the det plot has been done, and chuck all my leave in. It either gets cancelled (which if I've been first to put it in, then it rarely, in fact NEVER, gets cancelled) or I get the time off.

Simple really. If your program is blank, then expect to be tasked. We are all big boys now, doesn't take much to plan ahead.

(This is leave on a busy sqn with deployments and long working hours, so if it works here, it works most places. . . . . .barring SH :E )

[southside]

If you are not getting your leave your boss is failing


No he's not. Its not his job to check you are taking your leave. Its his job to check you are not taking too much leave but as far as taking the requirement then its entirely your own responsibility. I think though that the RAF and Army have got the leave thing right. In the RN we are still working in the 19th Centrury and insisting on block leave which is a real real pain. It means my hols always cost a fortune as I have to go in the main leave period times. The sooner we get rid of block leave the better.

[cornishpixie]

The last page of the report (or thereabouts) stated that they visited Northolt, High Wycombe & Benson.

Keeping in touch with the front line units as always:mad:

[SubdiFuge]

Southside

You are in the RN and you may have differing requirements. In the other 2 services it is the bosses responsibilty to ensure their folk are rested adeqately and for us non RN mere mortals that means we need more than weekends off.

As everybody is so happy in the Lynx world, I can only summise that you have too many people to do the work that is required? In the real world, it is much more different.

[Compressorstall]

Southside

The Army still do the block leave thing too. The 19th Century is way too progressive for the Army.

[cornishpixie]

2. The govt keeps banging on about the Armed Forces being the best in the world. Why do we not have a renumeration package and attitude from them upstairs that reflects that?
A. Hurrumph yes well, compared to Australia, Zimbabwe and Outer Mongolia, rather good, yer, erm, well, you're all doing very well and we think that, hurrumph, our recommendations reflect that. Hurrumph.
Quickly followed by stony silence and a lot of 'Mmmmmmmm, yeeeessss' from the assembled throng.

Having looked at transferring to the Australian Air Force, (Application already received by RAAF) the AFPRB might be interested to note that the criminal fraternity down under manage to allow their operational personnel in Iraq to go un-taxed with an additional $120 Au a day. How carless of the Aussies I cant imagine how that is ever going to bolster morale in any way whatever and as for making the troops feel valued......13% on MQs is the obvious way ahead:eek:

[cornishpixie]

If you are not getting your leave your boss is failing and you are no better. There is always something that can be dropped so leave can be taken.
Stop being martyrs and take your leave.

Perhaps some are carrying others:sad:

[SubdiFuge]

Perhaps some are carrying others

Always the way Cornishpixie, always the way.

[Trumpet_trousers]

How carless of the Aussies
..Would that be because they didn't wash it when they took it back to MT? :E

[cornishpixie]

..Would that be because they didn't wash it when they took it back to MT? :E

All spelling mistakes due to no ISS

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

The AFPRB are a complete joke. Questions should be asked to the media. The NoTW owes the military after publishing that video - perhaps they are interested in running the story.

[cornishpixie]

The AFPRB are a complete joke. Questions should be asked to the media. The NoTW owes the military after publishing that video - perhaps they are interested in running the story.

Perhaps is just a ploy to destabalise the country and topple yet another leader of men. Or does Tony Blair feature with Gordon Brown on page 3

[Hoots]

Subdifudge, like a lot of people in here we do spend quite some time OOA these days. Last year for me it was just over 5 months (to be expected these days and not much different from what i was used to 15 years ago). Even if by your example i only had a few days left over each year it mounts up over several years. Even when returning from OOA there are still duties to be fulfilled, whether that be professional courses, Orderly Officer/Sgt or Guard Duty. Take into account all the stand down with the festive period. Not just the xmas stand down but all the accumulated missed public holidays, i believe i only used 3 days annual for the festive period(some are on duty for part if not all of that). Then there are professional things like keeping current, maintaining all the other stats and training, filling in for other people etc. I'm not the type to say sorry chaps tough not my problem, leave means different things to different people. Theres also the problem of not getting leave when you want it, due to having to have block leave or crew leave, which by the nature of it doesnt fit into the school holidays or parters holidays. I personally dont have a problem with that but many do. We are not all covered by one set of circumstances, they change by individual, role, rank etc. so perhaps look at the bigger picture before stating that we should all just be left with a few days left over at the end.

However, i think it is fair to say by the comments its an emotive subject.

[SubdiFuge]

Hoots

I hear what you are saying, but I still do not believe that everybody cannot take nearly all of their leave. It really is a case of trying harder.

[FFP]

The way I understood it was Flying Pay was a retentive pay. So if you are leaving, I guess the retentive pay is no longer important.

Why it isn't cut entirely if that's the case, I don't know.

[theboywide]

On the subject of leave has everyone heard that under JPA we will no longer be allowed to carry over ANY leave from one year to the next as of next leave year. I find it incredible that they've sneaked this in at a time when most people can expect to be deployed for a great big chunk of the year and offer no recompense for losing leave at all. How many hacked off cookies will be rolling from a Basrah det to a Kabul det to home to do CCS/WHT/IRT/IDT/Currency Sims/Secondary duties/Training/etc and just not be able to take leave. My squadron on the whole are carrying 15 days+ a year already.

[santiago15]

TBW,

On the subject of leave has everyone heard that under JPA we will no longer be allowed to carry over ANY leave from one year to the next as of next leave year

I hadn't heard that; please tell me you're fishing.

[rej]

I know that, with the roll out of JPA, we in light blue will get an extra 3 days leave in Mar 06 to bring us in line with the other 2 services as, from next year, our leave year ends on 31 Mar.

Check with your admin cells as I know that where I work it has not been widely promulgated (rumour control does work occasionally!!)

[LFFC]

rej

..... unless of course, you are already carrying forward 15 days leave - in which case you'll get nothing without fighting your case with a letter to the stn cdr!

[rej]

LFFC
The 3 'extra' days are nothing to do with the 15 you are carrying forward. In essence your 15 days will be carried forward at the end of Mar vice Feb.

God, I'm starting to sound like an adminner. Take me away and shoot me.

Now, do you think that all 40-odd thousand air force personnel will be able to use the 3 extra days in Mar - I think not. Will we be able to carry forward between 15 and 18 days this year .......... I think not. It is a half hearted gesture that just proves how near sighted the system is.

However, I do hope that the rumour that JPA will not allow you to carry forward up to 15 days is just that ..... a rumour or is it just another way to p155 of the natives and increase the PVR rates to get down to the magical 30,000 figure.

[Ginseng]

Don't know where you got that rumour from, but, so far as I am aware, it is complete nonsense.

Regards

Ginseng

[LFFC]

rej

Yeah - that's what I meant. Apparently, you won't get your extra 3 days if you're already carrying over 15 days. Might make the stats look bad!

The bottom line is - if you've got 15 days outstanding, take at least 3 days leave this week!

[Ginseng]

Before you get carried away with rumours, I recommend a read of JSP760 - the tri-service regulations for leave and other forms of absence in the JPA era.

The 3-days leave for March is that proportion of a year's leave required to properly shift the current RAF leave year to align with the common JPA leave year. It has nothing to do with whether you have 15 days of this year's leave outstanding or not. In fact, looking on the bright side, it should be 2.54days, but as that's too difficult for anyone to administer, it has been rounded up to 3.

Ginseng

[Dirty Bleeder]

Has anyone else realised that they have omitted the phase ' unless PVR is at or after Initial Pension Point' when they discuss reductions to flying pay under JPA.
Under exsisting Regs if you PVR having served a commission beyond IPP then you do not take any reduction in Flying Pay - because you have given a reasonable service to Queen and Country.
With the omission of this phrase if you now PVR under JPA, and you were on Enhanced Flying Pay (as most people will be in that situation) you will take a £530 per month pay cut.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I don't know about you, but I feel that is a bit second eleven. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I tried to get the definitive answer from JSP753 (the new bible for Joint Pay) but apparently it has not been issued yet.
If anyone has any insight it would be greatly appreciated as there is no way I can live for a year with a pay cut of that magnitude.
Can they legally do that!!!!!!:confused: :confused:

[Almost_done]

No, go on. Sit on the fence, why don't you. :zzz:

No not sitting on the fence, just stating how I feel about the Federation/Union thingy and the military never really worked, sort of like.....

'Fellow Federation member go over the wall and attack the enemy!'
'Yes Fellow Federation Officer, but first I must check with my brothers that I can do that and that it's not an ilegal order'

As some person will try for that attitude eventually, human nature.

[cornishpixie]

:\ The evidence highlighted that significant manning shortages presented a management
challenge despite the drawdown of RAF personnel. Around 40 specific manning areas
were in shortfall covering a range of Aircrew, Operations Support, Engineers,
Administration, Medical and Support Branches, Non-Commissioned Aircrew and other
specific branches. The RAF regarded managing operational deployments as important
for branches with manning shortages and there were signs of improvement since the
peak of commitments in 2003

Aircrew
recruitment was healthy but the number of pilots electing to leave at their initial
retirement date had increased after three years of low exit rates. The removal of FRIs had
proved unpopular and manning required close monitoring.

The measures introduced for Non-Commissioned Aircrew,
including the FRI, the Professional Aviator Pay Spine and the non-remuneration action
plan were all considered to be having a positive effect on the cadre. However, the RAF
generally considered that all Aircrew were “keeping their options open” rather than
extending their RAF careers.

Percentage of personnel working
over 40 hours per week 73%

MOD commented that working hours were stable but remained relatively high with
many personnel working excessive hours and experiencing on duty periods far in excess
of civilians. MOD added that, with continuing operational commitments and reductions
in personnel, there was a significant risk working hours would increase further over time.

The Armed Forces have certain exemptions from the Working Time Regulations

However, after several years of stability, Voluntary Outflow (as measured by PVRs) rose
during 2004-05 and was on an upward trend during the early part of 2005-06. Of
particular concern is the noticeable rise in PVR application and exit rates among Other
Ranks – the application rate, as a statement of intention, is a warning sign for the future.

Pay plays an important part in recruitment and retention. The conclusions we draw from
our pay comparisons suggest that Armed Forces’ pay is not as competitive as it needs to
be in a tight labour market. We can already see recruitment difficulties as the supply of
young people diminishes and pay levels have a role in supporting the Services’
recruitment efforts.

MOD’s manning evidence suggested that overall SNCO manning was stable and
sustainable for the Army and RAF but deficits existed across many Royal Navy SNCO
ranks. However, the single Services noted: a large shortfall of Army Sergeants against the
Sustainable Experience Profile; a significant reduction in the RAF SNCO manning deficit –
the RAF recognised the need to carefully manage SNCOs through force restructuring;
and shortages of Royal Navy Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers were predicted to
worsen. The Royal Navy manning “black hole” had been created as a result of
recruitment policies in the mid-1990s and the Royal Navy was considering action to
address future sustainability, including targeted extension of service. We noted earlier in
Chapter 2 that manning “black holes” lead to mounting pressure on personnel thereby
influencing retention and can be very expensive to rectify.

MOD’s evidence, and comments we received on visits, pointed to two major concerns
among SNCOs: structural issues within Pay 2000; and perception of status and value.
Pay 2000 continued to exercise and frustrate SNCOs, particularly overlapping pay bands,
incremental progression, pay on promotion and the “flop” from higher to lower pay
bands on promotion. MOD will review Pay 2000 post-JPA, including incremental levels
and pay on promotion. Some SNCOs perceive status and value to be eroded by
additional responsibilities and workload for little financial gain. However, evidence on
morale and satisfaction was not out of step with the rest of the Services and competition
for promotion remained fierce.

Aircrew Pay
4.7 In our 2005 Report, we asked MOD to consider whether the six categories of Aircrew
Pay could be streamlined as they only covered two rates of pay. MOD continued to
consider that the current structure offered sufficient flexibility and matched differing
career progression.

I have not made any comments so far but would invite yours. I suspect that comments along the lines of "No s**t Sherlock" might be appropriate:sad:

[BEagle]

"The removal of FRIs had proved unpopular......."

You don't say! Well, there's a thing.....:rolleyes:

[The Gorilla]

It certainly hastened my departure. As I said so you want me to put up with all this Bo**ocks for £5,000 a year less. Mmmm let me think about that.

Ha ha ha!
:) :)

[Baskitt Kase]

...shortfall covering a range of Aircrew, Operations Support, Engineers, Administration, Medical and Support Branches, Non-Commissioned Aircrew and other specific branches.

"The removal of FRIs had proved unpopular......."

You don't say! Well, there's a thing.....:rolleyes:

Although not, I suspect, with the many ground crew that have been having even more pressing recruitment/retention problems than we have had over the past few years...

[Brain Potter]

Apologies for going of at a tangent, but is anyone else annoyed by the phrase "roll out" for this sort of cr*p - ie JPA. It used to mean the exciting prospect of a new aircraft prototype being rolled out of a hangar, but has been hijacked to make the mundane admin/IT projects sound sexy.

I was under the impression that the changes under JPA are supposed to align the rules for all three services. I thought that Flying Pay rules were already tri-service. Under pre-JPA rules is FP for Army or Navy personnel cut by half under PVR terms? If not, what could possibly justify this change? I suspect that JPA is an excuse for trying to reduce PVRs by making the terms more unpallatable for the individual. What next - a total loss of FP? If servicemen had any sort of protection under employment law (other than racial or sexual discrimination) then perhaps this change could be challenged. However, I fear that the only recourse would be redress - a system which supposedly substitutes for all the other employment law protection enjoyed by the rest of the workforce. Good luck to whoever tries!!

[dessert_flyer]

With regard to reduction to Flying Pay on PVR. Am i to assume those of us on the PA spine will have no reduction in their pay if they PVR, as they are on a spine point and as such dont have an element of Flying pay, whilst those of us still on Flying pay will have ours cut, any thoughts anybody? and is it legal or is their some discrimination their??

[cornishpixie]

With regard to reduction to Flying Pay on PVR. Am i to assume those of us on the PA spine will have no reduction in their pay if they PVR, as they are on a spine point and as such dont have an element of Flying pay, whilst those of us still on Flying pay will have ours cut, any thoughts anybody? and is it legal or is their some discrimination their??

As I understand it your absolutly correct:{

[Climebear]

and is it legal or is their some discrimination their??


Yes it is legal even though there is some discrimination there. The basis is the PA spine is whole salary not additional pay (for recruiting and retention). Not all discrimination is illegal. If it were, we would all be paid the same wouldn't we - Come the Revolution Comrades!

A quick scan of RAF QRs highlights the difference between Flying Pay and other forms of additional pay.

2681. Flying Pay - General Duties Officers (Flying) Branch. Sponsor:PMA(PAC)

Object

(1) The main object of flying pay is so to enhance pay as to provide in total emoluments an inducement to sufficient numbers of suitable personnel to undertake and continue with a flying career in the RAF.


All other forms of Additional Pay appear to be paid for the duration someone is actually doing a specific job/duty. In simple terms people are being paid these other forms of additional pay for doing things; whereas flying pay appears to be pain to encourage people to start flying and then not to leave.

[[email protected]]

Yes it is legal even though there is some discrimination there.

In simple terms people are being paid these other forms of additional pay for doing things; whereas flying pay appears to be pain to encourage people to start flying and then not to leave.

Yes, pay issues can be a pain.

When trying to be the spelling police ... glasshouses ... stones ... etc.

[Climebear]

[email protected]

touche, but there is a difference between a typo and not knowing the difference between there and their.

[Tourist]

Take it like a man Climebear!
Admit that you just made yourself look a d1ck.
Wingeing just makes it worse.:ok:

[Phoney Tony]

Sorry if this has been covered before on this thread.
I found out today that if you are posted into a post which is not 'Flying Associated' you lose your flying pay after the 3 year point, in 25% chunks over the next 3 years. Thus at the 6/7 year point you do not get any at all.
This was always possible under the old system. The difference with JPA is that this is now not a discretionary thing it's automatic.
Is this fair if you are posted into specific jobs for 'Service Need'.
For those of you in ground tours I suggest you check with yor deskie to see if your post has been redesignated with out your knowledge. More importantly if posted into ground slot check it's status.
I suspect there may have been a smoke and mirror job done here.
How willing are aircrew going to be to fill tours knowing their FP is at risk?
Interestingly I have checked a few PICs which state FlyXXX as mandatory competencies, but are 'Not flying related'. I suspect the answer is to post another branch into the slot......but I suspect the job holder actually wants aircrew!
Angry

[cornishpixie]

I found out today that if you are posted into a post which is not 'Flying Associated' you lose your flying pay after the 3 year point, in 25% chunks over the next 3 years. Thus at the 6/7 year point you do not get any at all.

On the positive side it may stop some of the ground happy war dodgers. I have to agree that Aircrew will be less inclined to volunteer for ground posts if they run the risk of losing flying pay. On the other hand accept PA and accept ground tours?:sad:

[LFFC]

Phoney Tony

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. It's not much different from the system that's already in place and there aren't very many posts for aircrew that are not flying related. Moreover, given the shortage of sqn ldr aircrew, and the rate at which that situation is getting worse, there's really no chance of you ending up posted to a non-flying related job!