PPL Decider

[Irish Expat]

Help! I've been shopping round for ages looking for somewhere to do the PPL, from Spain to U.S., Canada to South Africa, will someone give me some sound advice on what to do...It will be for recreational purposes only.....for now anyway!

[FlyingForFun]

First of all, try posting in the correct forum. If the query is related to PPL, or anything recreational, it belongs in the Private Flying forum, where this thread will no doubt be moved to as soon as the moderators see it....

But to answer the question, why are you getting a PPL? Is it because you intend to fly after you get your license? In which case, find your nearest flying club and learn there. After all, this is most likely where you will be flying from after you get your license.

All these foreign places you are looking at are absolutely fine if you are looking to get a license in a short space of time. But if it's purely recreational, they are probably not right for you. If you disagree, then tell us your reasons for wanting to go abroad, and we can discuss them and find out if you are thinking along the right lines and advise you further.

FFF
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[Irish Expat]

Wanna FFF but don't want to train for ages, would rather get it done in one foul swoop and obviously as cheaply, yet professonally as possible! Comprende?

[FlyingForFun]

Ah, right.

Ok, let's think about what you're going to do with your license after you get it. Presumably, visit your local airfield most weekends, and fly for an hour or so (or maybe longer)?

Now, let's assume you got your license in the UK. For the first, say, 6-18 months of your flying career, you will be visiting your local airfield most weekends, flying for an hour or so (or maybe longer) having a lesson (or two). After that, you will continue to visit your local airfield most weekends to go flying.

Or the alternative: train abroad, spending several grand getting your license. Then come back home, visit your local airfield most weekends and go flying.

Both options involve a weekly expenditure (of both time and cash) from now until such time as you stop flying (due to medical problems, old age, getting bored, running out of cash or whatever). The difference between the two is that training abroad involves leaving home for a few weeks, a very intensive training course (which is generally going to be less enjoyable since it is so intensive), and a one-off large amount of cash to be parted with.

So, running through your reasons: you want to get it done "in one foul swoop", which suggests that you haven't thought about the ongoing nature of flying as a hobby. You want cheap - the cheapest way, though, in terms of the total amount you spend over the next 18 months both pre- and post-PPL, is to train part-time. And you want professional - but there are both professional and cowboy schools anywhere in the world.

If I still haven't convinced you, then all of the countries you suggest offer cheap flying. All of them have good enough weather (if you pick the right part of the country) to reduce the time you spend abroad to a minimum. And all of them have good schools if you look for them (and bad schools too). The next question you need to address, though, if you still want to go abroad, is whether to train for a JAR license abroad, or whether to get a foreign license, and then optionally convert it to JAR when you return to the UK, since this will affect your choice of schools.

Hope I'm making sense here.

FFF
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[Irish Expat]

Ye your making sense alright, The intention is definitley to do the JAR Rating, with regard to the price, I think it's only human nature to want the cheapest you can find! Money is not necessarily the issue here. I wouldn't mind the time abroad, the thing is, I'm afraid of starting it here and then due to weather and other comitments IE Work, not getting the hours in. I would like to fly solo as early as is feasibleso I thank you for the comments, but they really don't help all that much , I just require info on where would be best to go?

[FlyingForFun]

Ok - so you're set on training abroad after understanding the pros and cons. And you've decided on a JAR PPL.

Next choice: to train in a JAA country (there are 40 member countries, details of which are in this JAA document (http://www.jaa.nl/introduction/Annex1-JAAMemberStates-December2005.pdf), or to train outside of JAA states.

If you train in a JAA country, you will get a JAA license which is issued by the authorities in that country. Not all JAA countries have good weather, good training facilities and cheap prices, so you'd need to do a lot more research before making up your mind.

If you train outside of the JAA countries, you will need a school which is approved by a JAA authority. To the best of my knowledge, the only country which approves any such schools is the UK (but I might be wrong on this). The full list of schools they approve is here on their website (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF), at the bottom of page 5.

The only one of these schools I have any first-hand knowledge of is European Flight Training. I did my CPL there (not my PPL), but my experience was very positive - a very professional organisation who delivered what they promised. One criticism of them was that I had to wear a uniform.

Now it's time to start shopping around - personal recommendations are always a good way to start, but don't rely 100% on what you read on PPRuNe, because you can never be sure of any ulterior motives of the posters.

Good luck!

FFF
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[Irish Expat]

Cheers for the assistance mate!

[Lister Noble]

I'm still a student nearing end of course,so hope this also helps.
I started August last year and have booked 4-6 hours each weekend since then,(the club only teaches Friday,Saturday and Sunday)
To date I have flown 43 hours due to weather and other circumstances.
Before I started I looked at US and South Africa alternatives, thought to get it done quickly ,cheaper etc ,but was told by my pilot pals,"it's not a race so enjoy the flying!"
1-First thing is to enjoy the training and not treat it like a "crash course",sorry about the pun.
2-After checking it all out I don't think it is much cheaper abroad ,and a hell of a lot of pressure unless you do all your ground school exams at home first.
3-I can only tell you what very experienced instructors have told me,that you fly for 3 weeks abroad ,get your licence ,come back home and often still need some more lessons to bring you up to spec.
4-Better to learn in the weather conditions you will experence most of your flying life.
5-I also hear that the radio comms are slightly different.

I may be wrong on some of this but this is how I heard it.
Anyway,good luck.
Lister

[Irish Expat]

cheers mate, much appreciated, very good points!

[strafer]

A different pov

1-First thing is to enjoy the training and not treat it like a "crash course",sorry about the pun. Absolutely correct

2-After checking it all out I don't think it is much cheaper abroad ,and a hell of a lot of pressure unless you do all your ground school exams at home first. It is a lot cheaper, the part about doing your ground exams first is fallacious

3-I can only tell you what very experienced instructors have told me,that you fly for 3 weeks abroad ,get your licence ,come back home and often still need some more lessons to bring you up to spec. They wouldn't be gaining any money by you staying at their flying club would they?:hmm: I needed 4 hours to check out when I returned from the US. That's around average.

4-Better to learn in the weather conditions you will experence most of your flying life. Better to learn in as many different places as possible

5-I also hear that the radio comms are slightly different. Yes they are. But if you're doing a JAA PPL it's the JAA R/T written and oral that you have to pass, wherever you are.

That's just my 2 cents of course.

[172driver]

Well, as FFF has said - it depends a lot on what you think you'll be doing with your brand new license. If you do this more as a social excercise and fly around the home field with the occasional 100 quid sandwich at a nearby airfield thrown in - then it's probably really best to stay local.

If however you want to learn to fly to go places, spend as much time as poss up there, then I would go abroad. There are a few reasons for that.

a) it IS cheaper, in some cases a lot cheaper and let nobody tell you otherwise

b) depends where you go, but in the US (especially in Southern CA) you learn to fly 'in the system' from day one, using ATC, radio navigation, etc, etc. If in later life you then decide to fly across Europe, at least you won't get a panic attack at the prospect of actually having to talk to someone and give position reports in miles on a radial from a VOR. You also get to do night VFR straight away.

c) Usually one learns better by total immersion, so a short (avoiding the pun :E ) and intensive course is probably the better option

d) as self-hire tends to be a lot cheaper abroad (especially the US), you can go up and fly more

e) On a FAA PPL you can legally fly any G-reg (day VFR only), so that's a non-issue if you fly only for fun; don't know the rules in Ireland, though

f) you will be able to convert an FAA license to a CAA/JAR license with relatively minor trouble (check out the CAA website as to the requirements - they vary with experience)

All the above of course from a PPL, flying for leisure, perspective. For a career it may be different.

In any case, the most important thing is that you get a license and enjoy flying :ok: !

[dublinpilot]

e) On a FAA PPL you can legally fly any G-reg (day VFR only), so that's a non-issue if you fly only for fun; don't know the rules in Ireland, though

The position in Ireland is a little different. An FAA PPL holder can fly an EI registered aircraft, day VFR, within the confines of the state only. Going abroad would require the permission of the authority whos airspace is being flown in, or a request to the IAA to validate the FAA licence. I'm not sure if the IAA would do that or not.

However this isn't relevant to IE's position, as he says he intends to get a JAA licence. While this would be a CAA issued JAA licence if obtained in the US, I can't see any real disadvantage over an IAA issued one.

dp

[172driver]

The position in Ireland is a little different. An FAA PPL holder can fly an EI registered aircraft, day VFR, within the confines of the state only.

Actually, I think this is the same in the UK

Going abroad would require the permission of the authority whos airspace is being flown in, or a request to the IAA to validate the FAA licence. I'm not sure if the IAA would do that or not.

In pre-JAR days this could be done in most (or all) European countries. The rules vary(ied) widely, ranging from a validity of a few months (Spain) to life (Austria) as long as underlying FAA license remained valid. If this still works today in JARland I don't know (with the exception of Spain - there I know it is still possible).

However this isn't relevant to IE's position, as he says he intends to get a JAA licence. While this would be a CAA issued JAA licence if obtained in the US, I can't see any real disadvantage over an IAA issued one.

Correct. However, my point (should perhaps have been clearer about that) was that if all he wants to do initially is to fly for fun around Ireland, he could do so perfectly well and legal on a FAA license, which, AFAIK, is cheaper to obtain. Then, if our friend enjoys his flying (which I hope!), he can quite easily convert to a JAA license later on.

[Irish Expat]

Cheers for the input lads, I'm actually living in Belgium and would be flyingto Germany , Holland, Luxembourg etc, I have no intention of getting the FAA licence for this reason, if I go abroad it is to a school that offers a JAR rating!
IE

[172driver]

Ahhh, now the truth is coming out :\ !

OK, in which case I hope my posts are of interest to other readers.... however, if you want to fly in the congested airspace your are mentioning, I would really go and train somewhere where you learn to fly 'in the system'. Either locally (but make sure they don't just teach you to fly in the pattern!) or in Southern California. If you've learned to fly in SOCAL airspace not much will faze you any more airspace/ATC-wise.

[Irish Expat]

Ahhh, now the truth is coming out :\ !

172driver I never said anything untruthful in my queries, don't quite understand that comment?:bored:

[172driver]

IE, sorry, thast was meant as a joke :) ! Should perhaps have inferred from your screen name (or indeed location) that you're not based on the Emerald Isle....