PAL Pilot Exodus

[Pinoy Pilot]

I've heard rumours about pilots at Philippine Airlines getting job offers from Indian Airlines without interviews. Has anyone any info on this drama that is unfolding? Also airlines like Asiana and CAL poaching. What is PAL management doing about this?

[Start4&3]

I have an advice to PAL management "INCREASE THE PAY". :*

[e6b]

The Philippine ATO just issued a memo circular for all 135 and 121 certificate holders:
"In the Interest of Safety and National Security, effective immediately, all flight deck crew, particularly pilots and aircraft mechanics are hereby directed to seek clearance from their employers as an additional requirement for the renewal of their licences.
In this connection, all 121 and 135 operators are hereby directed to issue clearance to effect the renewal of your employees' license. Non-issuance of clearance means non-issue of their licennse.
For Strict compliance.:eek:
Nilo Jatico / Assitant Secretary":mad: :mad: :mad:

smells like lucio tan :mad: :mad: :mad:

btw, although hardest hit, the exodus is not only confined to pal but also to cebu pac and air phil....

[e6b]

"Especially if aircraft start hitting mountains!! Ahem... Cebu Pac!!"

any "pinoy pilot" would know that pal and air phil [moreso pal] have had their fair share of cfit...it's all about who controls the philippine media

[DeltaSix]

Howdy everyone, I couldn't really have any sympathy for these airlines if they don't pay their pilots what at least the current market price is paying. A friend of mine who is an S/O with the A330 told me what he was getting and I nearly fell off my chair. Way I look at it, they are as qualified as any other pilots in the world.
I guess the economy of the Philippines would have a lot to do to dictate this ( pay ).
Anyway, someone said that they are not getting paid on time or getting paid at all, thus the Exodus to other airlines. Apparently a Malaysian company went to the country a few months ago recruiting pilots from PAL and other sources. So, there you go.... we really couldn't blame them ( pilots )can we for defecting ?

E6b, what brought on this "clearance" to renew their licenses ?

Do you need to renew your license in the Philippines every now and then or do you mean the instrument rating ?
I always thought that the license has no expiry date except what your medical exam would reveal or renewing your IR.

DeltaSix

[e6b]

DeltaSix; here in the Philippines an ATPL has to be renewed every 6 months, CPL/IR every 12. That goes the same for the medical. I guess that means more revenue for the ATO. With this new "clearance" fiasco, if your current employer gets the drop that you have plans of leaving, its possible your license won't get renewed, limiting your chances of seeking employment elsewhere.
Historically pilot pay here has been low, except for a brief period in the early nineties before the big peso devaluation. At that time, ALPAP negotiated a pay scheme that brought pal pilots' pay at par with singapore airlines. Then the devaluation came and screwed everything. A lot of my colleagues have left for better pay/working conditions abroad and i don't blame them. The only thing keeping me here for now is being with my family and friends...

[DeltaSix]

E6b, I don't understand why your ATO would impose such an idiotic idea that you need a "clearance" from your employer to renew your license. Your employer should have nothing to do with your ATPL renewal as this is a personal matter. All they should care is if you were able to renew it or not, period. They have got you by the neck here buddy. I guess the only thing you can do is to leave before your license is up for renewal, but then I bet they are imposing such a ridiculous timeframe to file your resignation like 6 months prior just to catch you out? Just a suggestion, convert your license overseas to a US ATP. That should fix that hopefully. IMHO you will have a far better chance of getting a job overseas with a US ATP. I don't think you need to renew it, only the medical.

So, are you with PAL or with another carrier ?

D6

[Start4&3]

Just a suggestion, convert your license overseas to a US ATP. That should fix that hopefully. IMHO you will have a far better chance of getting a job overseas with a US ATP. I don't think you need to renew it, only the medical.

D6

I don't think it's that easy to convert foreign license to US ATP, especially if a pilot is not a US resident.

[Pinoy Pilot]

Thanks for the replies guys, my original thread was about our PAL brothers getting a fair deal and what their company is doing about it. But hey... threads morhp!
About PAL, Air Phil and CFIT... I wouldn't know. The Cebu Pac comment was the most celebrated in recent years. Sorry e6b if you were offended.
License conversion around the world is fairly standard. ICAO member states allow conversions fairly easily, generally with an Air Law exam and a flight test. If you have a comprehensive ATPL (ie one where you have to really study for each subject like in Europe, Australia or Malaysia and not one you are given the answers to) the conversion is easy. The US ATP is VERY SIMPLE, the only difficult thing about it is getting clearance from TSA (Transportation Security Administration) due to 911. Otherwise when regulators get your application for a conversion, they get a correspondance (usually a fax) stating that the documents are in order and thats it. It seems like the Filipino regulator is trying to throw a spanner in the works or at least slow down the process. What it means for the Filipino pilot would be to do all the ATP subjects of the prospective country then a flight test if the regulator doesn't give clearance.
If there are any other suggestions... pls post!!

[DeltaSix]

Pinoy Pilot, to convert to US ATP, you need to pass the FAA written exam which covers 7 subjects, a flight test and an oral exam. The written is piss easy, but don't take the oral test lightly. There are schools that do reviews in Florida for the written exam. You can do it in one day. The flight test might be interesting though if you haven't done any flying in the states, so I would do 10 hours in a light twin just to familiarize yourself if you decide to do it.

The oral will be based on technical questions about the aircraft you fly but it's a killer.

Goodluck to all pinoy pilots, its time PAL realizes your worth.

DeltaSix

[Kaptin M]

Aren't a high percentage of PAL (Philippine Air Line) pilots scabs (eskirol) from the strike of a couple of years ago, when the then PAL pilots tried to protect their pay from greedy Lucio?

[DeltaSix]

Kaptin M

The S/O I know isn't one of them.
But, sounds like greedy Lucio is at it again by the looks of it.
Apparently some are not getting paid or their pay is severely delayed.


D6

[bisaya]

what else is new... ATO... Another Tan Office?

[bisaya]

RP losing pilots to foreign airlines
By Rainier Allan Ronda
The Philippine Star 02/06/2006

Pilots of the Philippine Air Force and the country’s three major airlines are joining the exodus of skilled Filipino workers leaving for high-paying jobs abroad.

Many of the pilots are seeking jobs with foreign commercial airlines.

News reports from an international cable news network said India, the second most populous country in the world, is in need of as many as 4,000 pilots to fly the planes of several airlines operating there.

Industry sources said flag carriers Philippine Airlines, Cebu Pacific and Air Philippines are feeling the pinch of the mass hiring by foreign air carriers.

Last month, Indian job recruiters arrived in the country and promptly started interviewing possible recruits in a hotel in Makati.

A pilot working with a Philippine air carrier told The STAR that the Indian headhunters were offering very attractive compensation packages of as much as $6,000 for flight officers and $8,000 for experienced pilots of Boeing 737s.

Sources inside PAL told The STAR that the arrival of the Indian recruiters had reportedly panicked PAL management which is asking the Philippine National Police (PNP) to arrest and immediately deport those conducting recruitment activities without the coordination and authorization of the Philippine Overseas Employment Authority.

However, it was learned that the assault by foreign commercial airlines on the country’s pool of skilled pilots does not end with the departure of the Indians.

A source said recruiters for South Korean airline, Asiana, arrived recently to entice pilots to leave their jobs with local airlines.

The South Korean job recruiters are offering salaries higher than those dangled by the Indian counterparts with some experienced pilots being offered as much as $12,000 a month, the source added.

The source said that, effective last Feb. 1, PAL gave a 10-percent salary increase to their pilots as an incentive to stay.

The increase came despite safeguards built into PAL’s five-year employment contracts with their pilots to prevent piracy.

"While it is not much, its still an improvement," a PAL pilot said.

PAL pilots here reportedly earn a salary equivalent to around $3,000 a month.

While relatively high, the source said that many pilots see their pay as meager considering the steep price they had to pay to go through flying school.

Nowadays, one has to shell out as much as P2 million to complete a demanding two-year pilot training with a reputable flying school, the source added.

source: http://www.philstar.com/philstar/NEWS200602060405.htm

[DeltaSix]

So, what's PAL and the rest of the airlines gonna do about it now ? Is there anyone left to fly their planes ?

No offence meant, but I heard one Asian airline rang PARC to recruit pilots. The PARC guy asked how much the airline was willing to pay and when they told him....... he just hang up the phone laughing.

Well, looks like the balance of demand and supply has now tipped in favour of the pilots. Do you think they would start paying you now hopefully ?

D6

[unruly]

Only thing I can say to this new Another Tan Office (ATO) circular...Put A Little More Nilo Hati Ko!! For the pinoys out there, good luck to us all.

[pinoypiloto]

e6b and the rest of the pinoy pilots around,

with the 'lack' of pilots in the philippine aviation industry, is it safe to say that it is high time for new pilots to come in?

i hold a CPL, Command Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, and an Instructor Rating with 300 total flying hours.

mabuhay!

[Start4&3]

Pinoypilot,

You gonna need more than 300 hours if you want to fly for any major airlines in the Phil. you got a better chance with the smaller charter companies flying King Airs, caravans, etc.etc.

S43

[e6b]

e6b and the rest of the pinoy pilots around,
with the 'lack' of pilots in the philippine aviation industry, is it safe to say that it is high time for new pilots to come in?
i hold a CPL, Command Multi-Engine Instrument Rating, and an Instructor Rating with 300 total flying hours.
mabuhay!

pinoypiloto,

S43 is right. Minimum flight time required for new hires at CebuPac is 1500 hrs. It might go down to 1000 hrs if the current trend continues. My advice is to keep on accumulatng those flight hours because of the expected increase in requirement for experienced pilots in the asia-pacific region in the next decade or two.
There is even talk at Cebupac of setting up an Ab Initio flight school, but that's all up in the air.
And when you do get the time, unless you're particularly inclined to living in Flipland, why not try other asian carriers that offer better compensation/working conditions...just my 2 centavos

Ingat Pare.

[mach.86]

regarding the SO not getting paid on time, i wonder if that really is true. but if it is then that is so disappointing. i'm a newbie in this industry and i've got no options yet but to stick with PAL til i get my qualifications. but as early as now, joining a foreign carrier is all i think about (and i'm speaking for my fellow SOs as well). not just for the fat salary but for the growth other airlines promise.
anyone know an airline hiring SOs? :D

[DeltaSix]

E6b,

Check your p.m.

D6

[tsuper]

regarding the SO not getting paid on time, i wonder if that really is true. but if it is then that is so disappointing. i'm a newbie in this industry and i've got no options yet but to stick with PAL til i get my qualifications. but as early as now, joining a foreign carrier is all i think about (and i'm speaking for my fellow SOs as well). not just for the fat salary but for the growth other airlines promise.
anyone know an airline hiring SOs? :D

Try these sites.
http://www.oasis-air.com/en/careers.aspx#crw http://www.cathaypacific.com/careers/en/choices/0,,128408,00.html

But I wouldn't recommend leaving Philippine Airlines with a Second Officer rating. I'd wait until I get my B737 or A320 first officer or captain rating before I leave. Promotions with foreign carriers might be extremely slow or next to impossible for SO's especially for expat contract hires. Promotions in PAL are really fast right now with the exodus of pilots. Just wait it out for a few years and think about it later. If you're a newbie, expect movement to the B737 or A320 in 2 to 3 years. But expect to sign a 5 year training agreement.

Good Luck!!:)

[pinoypiloto]

Start4&3 & e6b,

i would also like to know of the preparations and costs for the license/rating conversions.

salamat sa replies!

[juaffy]

Hello Guys,
I've read your observations, things happening around Aviation in the Philippines. It is definitely good for everyone, I am one of the few guys working outside the phil., the opportunity was good and I think just like the others, one cant just resist the offer. Etihad,Qatar, Emirates, Airlanka,Air Deccan, Kingfisher,Sincargo, Air HKGcargo,Asiana,Vietnam Airlines, Pacific Air(vietnam),Air Asia etc are just few of the Airlines hiring Filipino pilots. Just to give you an idea, Middle eastern airlines will be needing 4000 pilots in the next 5 years, of which 1400 pilots will be for Emirates alone, Airlines in India are looking towards the same figure, so Guys goodluck.. and yes there 's an airline hiring SOs as well, Qatar Airways is one...its a Career airline so I guessed You can still get promotion along the way.

[e6b]

Start4&3 & e6b,
i would also like to know of the preparations and costs for the license/rating conversions.
salamat sa replies!
I honestly don't know pare. The ATO is one great big grey area. If you're really bent on getting a conversion, go the the ATO and look for "Ate Fe"; be nice to her and she'll help you out :ok:

[e6b]

Yes, you're right many are remnants of the pilot's strike, a moved instigated by the Some greedy senior pilots, who always tell the junior pilots during meetings at ALPAP" dont worry you're time will come.." but who's to blame? the Union can't support all familys around it(families of the scabs you mention). Lessons from the past, gain some and lose many. Kaptin M? you must be one of those who did not go back to PAL. :confused:
What about the greedy junior pilots: "THE SEVEN DWARVES"; who thought it was "their time" and jumped to get ahead of everyone. The first "crack" that brought the whole thing down.
if no one went back in the first place then everything would have worked out. But I guess we Filipinos aren't that enlightened enough, just look at what's going on in our country right now, we never learn. You have to be one hell of a patriot not to be thinking of jumping ship.
True, there were a lot of :mad: senior guys and I'm glad that I don't have to greet them "sir, good morning sir!" anymore, but that's not the point. There was a STRIKE VOTE, if you voted "NO", i respect that. If you voted "YES", then be a man and live up to your word! If you voted "YES" but meant "NO", then you're an idiot!
Now that there is no more union in PAL, pilots are treated like dirt and who is to blame? The scabs who went back "for the love of PAL" are in exodus.I was a Fokker-50 F/O back in '98; bottom of the food chain. True, a lot of the junior guys who stuck it out had to go back eventually because they had nothing to feed their families...I have nothing against them. I even share a San Mig with them once in a while. But with real scabs, that's a different matter...

[e6b]

First of all; those who got their flight time for "free".
I know guys from the Philippine Air Force who have done great service to our Motherland, if what they got was "free" flight time, I believe they deserve a lot better than that.
PAL Aviation Cadets: in my batch there were 2000 applicants and only 20 were chosen. We were the best of the best and we deserved it. Not to mention the kind of "Dodo" :mad: we had to go through; and once we graduated from flying school and flew on the line, same old :mad:.
Your parents worked hard to help you become a pilot, good for you.
But don't even for once think that pilots from the PAF and PAL AV School do not deserve their wings.
Some of my friends went back to PAL during the strike with a heavy heart. They did it not out of greed to fast track their career but for their families. If you are like these good souls then I have no quarrel with you. I wish you peace and prosperity.
But for the real ESKIROL, i just can't find it in my heart to break bread with them. Not because I lost my "bottom of the food chain" position, but rather, it was a betrayal of trust.
You're right, let God decide. That's the law of Karma, eventually you get what's coming to you, if not in this life, then the next...

[Start4&3]

Gentlemen, you are the top 1% of Philippine aviation, BEST of the BEST, the elite. We'll make you better. :}

[e6b]

Gentlemen, you are the top 1% of Philippine aviation, BEST of the BEST, the elite. We'll make you better. :}
you bet your fat behind!

[r2d2rebel]

Just keep on building your hours a little more. I think PAL requirement is just 600 hours CPL w/ IR, multi engine to join as F/O light jet (320 or 737) or as S/O 340/330 or 747-400. That is if you can take a salary that low (F/O will make less than a cabin crew from Cathay or Emirates, about $900 net/mo.) & bond yourself w/out depreciation for 5 years for every training you get.

[DeltaSix]

Just keep on building your hours a little more. I think PAL requirement is just 600 hours CPL w/ IR, multi engine to join as F/O light jet (320 or 737) or as S/O 340/330 or 747-400. That is if you can take a salary that low (F/O will make less than a cabin crew from Cathay or Emirates, about $900 net/mo.) & bond yourself w/out depreciation for 5 years for every training you get.

r2d2rebel,

I had a talk with a friend who is an S/O in PAL to clarify this, the requirement for S/O is 500 hours BUT it must be on an aircraft with at least a 500HP engine. Anything less than that will be considered 50% only. Meaning if you fly a single or a light twin having with an engine below 500hp, you must have at least 1,000 hours to be considered. F/O is 1,200 hours ( 500+hp engine). Hope this helps.


D6

[machten]

Sayang, i always wanted to go back to my homeland and work for PAL. I didn't know things were that bad and still going downhill. Guess I can scratch that idea. How bout CebuPac? How are the conditions on that side? Or maybe is it just safe to say to stay away from the two?

[batuta23]

anyone hear about some asian airlines getting busy with the idea of buying the 5 year contracts of PAL pilots so they can be free to join their company and then have the pilots pay thru salary deduction?the bill for a wide body F/O is about US$20,000.a lot of crew would take a second look at the asian job boom knowing they could get a free pass.

[Navitimer]

Right now, the pilot exodus is starting to be felt in CEBPAC. They just started refleeting with new planes, A320s, and what do they do? Make their pilots feel that they owe it to the company that they still have a job and that they will be trained on the 320s. And to add insult to injury, they give different salary levels to captains just because one came from a dc9 and another from a 757! Doing the same work with different pay? With this scheme, they'll be losing pilots faster than PAL.
As I gathered from a pilot who is enslaved there, CEBPAC base hr is 80. 320 Capts pay $2,400 (if you come from the 757) and $1,900 (from DC9). Additionals are transportation allowance ($3 per check-in), Rice allowance (less than the amount of 1 sack of rice given every 3 months), overtime pay (50% of daily rate) which you'll probably use to pay for hospital bills as flying more than 80 hrs is a killer, free breakfast, lunch, snack or dinner which must be gulped down in 5 minutes so as not to delay their turnaround. FOs pay barely squeaked past $1,000. So if anybody is interested, just feel free to apply.
I think CEBPAC will soon become a training academy rather than a discount carrier.:ok:

[e6b]

I think CEBPAC will soon become a training academy rather than a discount carrier.:ok:
At the rate we're going, I wouldn't be surprised...
And with the proposed bill in congress that would prohibit Filipino pilots from seeking employment abroad for the next 3-5 years; a lot of pilotos at CebuPac, who had no inclination of leaving, are now seriously re-evaluating their options.

[tsuper]

I heard rumors that pilots promised training dates with SIA Cargo have been told their training will not continue:mad: :mad: . The alleged reason was that the Philippine Government and/or Philippine Airlines called SIA and requested that PAL pilots not be hired:mad: :mad: . I still have to confirm this info. Will post when I get to talk to guys who were supposed to leave for SIA Cargo.

[e6b]

anyone hear about some asian airlines getting busy with the idea of buying the 5 year contracts of PAL pilots so they can be free to join their company and then have the pilots pay thru salary deduction?the bill for a wide body F/O is about US$20,000.a lot of crew would take a second look at the asian job boom knowing they could get a free pass.
The initial batch of CebuPac pilots that trained in Toulouse for the A319/20 were actually offered a similar deal by KINGFISHER right after their final checkride. They declined out of "delicadeza".

[DeltaSix]

Guys, please be warned about these Indian Airline offers. I spoke to someone from there, and from what I've heard your security of tenure is "very temporary". As soon as they can put someone in your place Capt or F/O, you are out of there in a heartbeat. Same case for the Koreans. They are short on pilots now but once they have trained enough of their own countrymen to replace you......... enough said.

I just hope that your stay is long enough to regain your ground and look for something more promising but I wouldn't risk it not unless you really have to.

Cessna1052, with this 6 months notice and a 5 year ban, they can basically ruin your plans. Looks like I am in limbo here..... you know what I mean.

D6

[e6b]

i havent heard about that offer from Kingfisher, are they willing to absorb your training expenses? If they really will, it seems to me as a very good deal considering that their offering more than $8000 basic pay aside from the accomodation and per diem.
The story was that the guy from Kingfisher mentioned something about shouldering training cost. These guys were very "marketable" since they already passed their sim checkrides and were "factory" trained at Airbus, Toulouse. But of course, it could only be a "story"...from whose side, I don't know.

[Navitimer]

Does it matter whether you're "factory" trained or trained by other accredited schools? What does it mean? You can fly any airplane you've trained in whether factory or not. As long as you have the rating the companies are asking for then you're ok, otherwise start preparing for your bond.

[e6b]

No offense, but "what I mean" is that it looks good on paper. If i were an employer, i would prefer a pilot trained directly by Airbus, holding an Airbus training certificate; compared to one trained "in house" from an airline that I've never heard of.
I fly for Cebupac, but hey, I gotta be realistic...how many people outside Flipland have actually heard of "Cebu Pacific". But if I hold an Airbus training certificate...maybe better chances for employment, just my 2 cents.

[Navitimer]

hmm, good point there.:ok:

[kontra]

I heard rumors that pilots promised training dates with SIA Cargo have been told their training will not continue:mad: :mad: . The alleged reason was that the Philippine Government and/or Philippine Airlines called SIA and requested that PAL pilots not be hired:mad: :mad: . I still have to confirm this info. Will post when I get to talk to guys who were supposed to leave for SIA Cargo.

Sad, but true. Got the news from the people involved. "National Interest"? Isn't it more of a national interest when our own Philippine Air Force are losing pilots to our local carriers? Why not have the government act on that first. Who will defend our skies if we dont have pilots. No offense who came from the PAF (we all have our reasons for leaving - but that will be another topic), but this will be more of a national interest than the "Personal/National Interest of Airline Owners"?

If somebody here have a direct contact to any poltician or the Zambo Rep himself. Please point this out to them/him.

[ActivateExecute]

I'm just new to this forum... I just want to say something about PAF pilots leaving their organization... 1. I guess its somthing to do with the organization they are in... 2. There are alot of pilots with no airplanes to fly... How can thay defend our country? we dont even have an interceptor... fighter jet... what are they gonna defend us with? S211? OV10? Do you still remember the story about our 2 OV10 planes that were patrolling those islands... that were just buzzed by a fighter jet... Well, I think these are just some of the things that these boys have in mind... Thats why they left the Air Force... :)

[kontra]

It's depressing the know that RP is really loosing its pilots. But still they (private owners or PAF officials) are not doing anything to address the situation. What they are doing now is to restrict the liberty of pilots. Instead of giving what they want so that the pilots wont leave. This only makes things worse. Private or government, its the same thing. The management or officers only think of themselves and not their core assets.

[e6b]

WORD!!!!!!

[DeltaSix]

This all due to the economic downturn that our country is facing and has been for quite sometime now. It's a terrible state of affairs, but the airlines seems to show no inclination to alleviate the problem without imposing draconian measures on it's most precious assets.... it's people.
And to add to it's woes, pilot solidarity is fragmented at best. It's true that market forces comes into play, but it's equally true that we're our own worst enemies when it comes to tough negotiations with our employers. The sad fact is we stick our heads in the sand and if the occasional lone voice is heard during a strike, on top of the fact that the airline management will actively seek ways to bring them down and everyone with them, some will crumble in the process and everyone suffers the consequences of failure. Having to put up with substantially less generous conditions.

For the airforce unfortunately, not unless our government can come to terms to justify the expense of buying fighter jets, I'm afraid all the airforce pilots will be flying will be cargo planes and helos. Gone are the days of the Blue Diamonds and that is so sad as I grew up believing that I can fly with them when I grew up. I didn't even make the final decision to join the PAF as during the time I was about to join, due to the rising price of AVTUR and the state of the economy, they were pulled off line.

Losing pilots is a double-bladed sword. Airline profits will decline on one side but skills shortage means that those with skills will command better returns in terms of pay and conditions. Though it might take time. The balance of supply and demand will tip in the favour of Fil pilot in the near future, if not already.
Flight operation management will deny it of course saying it is an envitable change but they are going to great lengths to tighten their employees chains to tie them down to poverty.

Suffice to say, they will feel how the pilots have been feeling when their needs were not heeded.

DeltaSix

[bisaya]

What makes pilots special?
First posted 01:43am (Mla time) Mar 11, 2006
By Solita Collas-Monsod
Inquirer
Published on Page A10 of the March 11, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer
THE Migrant Workers and Overseas Filipinos Act (Republic Act 8042) empowers the government to suspend or ban the deployment of migrant workers in pursuit of the national interest or when public welfare so requires it. It is this provision that is now being used to justify the imposition of a three- to five-year ban on the overseas employment of -- guess who? -- airline pilots.
Oh, sure, the chair of the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.
Which immediately raises warning flags. After all, one would have thought that the exodus of doctors and nurses and teachers would have the most far-reaching and long-run negative effects on the country's human development -- and yet no one is suggesting a ban on their leaving. So what makes pilots so special?
The answer can be gleaned from various news reports. Reading them, it becomes obvious that banning pilots from working for foreign airlines will benefit business tycoon Lucio Tan and his two airlines -- mainly Philippine Airlines (PAL), which employs more than half of all commercial pilots. His minions relate it to national interest in the following manner: Because of the pilot exodus (about 60 a year), the number of PAL flights have to be reduced, depriving the Filipino people of much needed airline service, i.e., what is bad for Tan and PAL is bad for the country. A media campaign seems to be in progress to put that message across.
The reasoning is fallacious, of course. It assumes that if PAL is crippled or dies, no one else will take its place, which is nonsense. In the international arena, any number of airlines are ready, willing and able to fill the gap, as was shown when PAL gave up its European flights, with the international community not even noticing it. And there is no reason to think that given a domestic market of 12 million non-poor families, there will be no new airlines forthcoming, or that existing competing airlines (Cebu Pacific Air, for one, whose expansion PAL has repeatedly tried to block) will not be ready to take up the slack.
But isn't pilot scarcity the problem? Where will these other airlines get their pilots? Simple: They entice them back from abroad, or make it less attractive for those who are here to leave, while at the same time preparing for the long term by making sure that the pipeline of pilots-in-training is widened rather than narrowed.
On the pipeline issue, my information is that before Tan took over PAL, it ran a pilot training school that accepted students who had passed entrance examinations and proceeded to train them, and only when they joined PAL were the training costs deducted from their salaries over a period of time. Tan apparently changed that; students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. No wonder the pilot pipeline narrowed, but that can be reversed.
The pilot exodus can also be reversed if we understand why the pilots leave or want to leave in the first place. That is because, they claim, Tan treats them like dirt. Their story: He used his considerable influence during the Estrada administration to have their strike declared illegal, terminated them all and then rehired them under onerous conditions-entry level salaries, loss of seniority (with retirement and pension implications), no union allowed.
To add insult to injury, those salaries reportedly were not increased from then until about one and a half years ago (probably in an attempt to stem the pilot exodus), when in the guise of making them (only senior pilots) part of management, they were given "premium" pay of 15 percent, but with a caveat: "Please note that premium pay is not included in the computation of retirement pay, 13th and 14th-month pay, and leaves commutation."
Senior PAL pilots say they get between $2,500 and $3,500 monthly (not $4,000 to $6,000 as claimed by PAL). The foreign airlines offer them $9,000 to $12,000. But some pilots also say that had PAL offered them even just one-half the industry pay average, they would not leave, to avoid the painful separation from their families.
But instead of using carrots to keep their pilots, PAL uses sticks -- arbitrarily increasing the amounts the pilots must pay to reimburse the cost of their specialized training, requiring them to give six months' notice before leaving, refusing to give them back the 25 percent of their pay that was set aside as forced savings, refusing to give references, using its muscle to harass the foreign recruiters (accusing them of illegal recruitment and sic-ing the National Bureau of Investigation on them) as well.
Failing to stem the hemorrhage despite all these measures, Lucio Tan's PAL, together with other domestic airlines (including Cebu Pacific, alas) is now campaigning to ban the foreign deployment of pilots. If they succeed, not only will the pilots be at their mercy, but the danger of having a domestic airline cartel increases exponentially. National interest? My sainted foot.
©2006 www.inq7.net all rights reserved

[Julie Andrews]

So, a columnist of national prominence has taken up the cudgels for the pilots (I wonder on whose behest?). Anyway, this should augur well for those left behind and want out. PPrune will only be good for venting pent-up anger, or rage if you will, which isn't bad. However, "rocking the boat" - I'll come up with a novel phrase next time - will entail something a lot more concrete than anonymous posts by faceless individuals.

The article was as good a start as any. :ok:

[DeltaSix]

the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.


I don't get this at all. They say there is a brain drain in the country ???
I know 6 doctors here in Sydney who are working as nurses, factory workers and insurance agents because they say that there are no jobs in the hospitals which I believe because another 12 nurses are here working as either nurses or office workers citing the same reasons. And I am sure a lot of them are leaving Philippines not only because of a better life but because of under-employment. The last time I was there, I met a "balut" vendor who has a degree in medicine. Apparently couldn't get a job. Are they ( the govt )just telling lies to justify their actions ???

"students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. "

with the state of the economy, who in their right minds would pay for this not unless you have a strong financial supporter ??.... not even most Filipinos overseas would be game enough to pay for their type rating.

I'd be very interested to see how they can entice pilots overseas to comeback especially the ones who has been with PAL disillusioned and bitter.

People like me were thinking about coming back home to fly for them but with all this Bull**** about 6 months notice, license renewal every 6 months, crappy pay and 5 year bans, who in their right minds would even consider ?
People are dying to get out.

For me to even consider PAL over QANTAS would be unthinkable.


D6

[planestupid]

Guys, PPRUNE is a great way for us to voice our otherwise unheard opinions. We have to get the word out. Why should we be paid much less than industry standard when foreign companies are offering much more. We're worth more than we realize... remember LT has a lot of clout because he has the money. Then again we too have a lot of clout (at least collectively). Planes don't fly by themselves!! (Well they do acutually.. but don't tell anyone!!) There has to be unity when it comes to dealing with management. Voicing our opinions is good, but unless someone stands up and is heard.. it's useless. But who? Who in this environment of terrorized employees is going to give up what they've worked so hard for, for so many years? Who is going to risk losing their retirement? Who is going to give up their command? Who is going to sacrifice their livelihood and family? JDC? Our dead alpap? Unions work because of the mere fact that people are united. United against opportunists like LT that flaunt his wealth on the Forbes billionaire's list. http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.php?index=3&story_id=69030&published_site=16
We need to be united. Not to sabotage PAL or CP, but to make it fairer and safer. Tell me who wants to get into a plane when they know that one of the pilots is straight out of flying school with 200 hours? Leaving pilots means that invaluable experience goes to other companies that reap the benefits. Why should SingCargo, Cathay, Korean Air get pilots that the Philippines has produced and paid for? I can see management's point... but they've got it all wrong. I know most of you share this view. I read it on this forum, read it in the paper, and hear it on the flightdeck. So then... What are we going to do about it??? :ok:

[e6b]

For starters, we should request our good moderator to make this thread into a "sticky". Also have Pinoy Pilot rename it to "Pinoy Pilot Exodus".
Excellent post PLANESTUPID.

[DeltaSix]

So then... What are we going to do about it???

Hire lawyers to oppose the bill and to work out an acceptable pay and conditions or take it to a human rights court --- if possible

Do it sooner rather than later.

D6

[tsuper]

Hire lawyers to oppose the bill and to work out an acceptable pay and conditions or take it to a human rights court --- if possible

Do it sooner rather than later.

D6

Win in court in the Philippines against Lucio Tan???? Quite impossible. Things work differently here in the Philippines and you would be surprised how loud money can talk. We just have to run like hell away from this company before all these "honorable" congressmen close all the exits for pilots. We have been there, done that in 1998.

[Pandayan_Ni_Pandoy]

Meron pang paraan. Remember 1998 when we flew the flights as published in the flight plan.
1. No requests for direct routing
2. No intersection take off
3. fly the full published instrument approach. Do not request visual approaches
4. Write aircraft discrepancies into logbook as they occur. Do not put them off until after the last sector has been flown.

Maybe they will realize how much money we save this company (PAL lamang po!!) by using our skills. Or maybe they will see how much time and fuel will be wasted when pilots refuse to use their skills, fly dumb and simply follow what is written in the flight plan. Just and idea but please tell me what you think. Could we get this up and running

[e6b]

I remember that kapatid, "brown out". When the enemy is strong: guerrilla tactics.

[DeltaSix]

Win in court in the Philippines against Lucio Tan???? Quite impossible. Things work differently here in the Philippines and you would be surprised how loud money can talk. We just have to run like hell away from this company before all these "honorable" congressmen close all the exits for pilots. We have been there, done that in 1998.

Tsuper, this is just a suggestion, if that doesn't work try something else to know you mean business. Like they say "there is more than one way to skin a cat". Take them to court and at the same time take it to the news people and air your grievances, rather than not doing anything at all. I'm sure you realize that what's at stake here are not just the future generations of pilots but your families as well. I know it's difficult but you guys have to work out a strategy. Pandayan's suggestion might get their attention and get them on the negotiating table. Good luck sa inyo.

DeltaSix

[DeltaSix]

Just try reflecting on this, if your Companies decided to stop paying you on time, or to suddenly give you a 50% pay cut on your salaries. Is there anything you can do? Can you just resign and go somewhere else profitable? Keeping in Mind that Dept of Labor approved the 6 months notice before leaving the company irregardless whether you served the contract or not.
What if the company doesn't want to support your license renewal just because you've been causing profit loses by asking too much extra fuel, or not using your wit on planning your flights and any other things management views as bonerous?


This is a scary thought. I already feel sorry for the guys back there for having to put up with the bans, contract and 6 months notices. If they do this then this would make them completely under the mercy of their employers. Cessna1052, no one would be able to get out when they need to.
Is there anything we can do to help them ?

D6

[bisaya]

Action to stem exodus of pilots sought
Manila Bulletin Online
Tue Mar 14, 2006


An alliance of organizations composed of overseas Filipinos and their families warned the local aviation industry yesterday that the current exodus of pilots and airline workers will worsen unless a comprehensive response is formulated.


"On the one hand, the aviation industry is alarmed over the exodus of its highly skilled workers but on the other, the Arroyo administration is vigorously "marketing" these same workers overseas. In this context, the industry’s proposed moratorium of a band-aid solution will do little to stem the hemorrhage caused by Malacañang’s adherence to World Trade Organization policies," Connie Bragas Regalado, Migrante International chairwomn, said.

Recently, the local aviation industry submitted a proposal to the Philippine Overseas Employment Administration (POEA) for a five-year moratorium on the overseas recruitment of pilots, aircraft engineers, and aviation mechanics.

POEA statistics showed that 1,159 highly trained aircraft mechanics had left the country since 2003.

About 120 pilots had left since 2000. Fifteen Philippine Airlines pilots had already left this year.

"The proposal to the POEA will surely fall on deaf ears as the POEA also has an avowed target of marketing and exporting one million workers annually, as per an Arroyo directive," she said.

Regalado added that Arroyo’s subservience to neoliberal globalization interests, through agreements like the World Trade Organization’s General Agreement on Trades and Services (Mode IV), also aggravates the exodus of workers. The GATS Mode IV provision allows the movement of people from one country to another to provide services to the detriment of Third World countries.
_________________

[batuta23]

siguro po mas maganda kung ang mga suggestions o strajedies:} para ilabas kami sa local airlines or to correct the company moves to enslave us rather than enrich us ay i daan na lang sa mga PM kung tiwala kayo sa ka-PM ninyo.pangit kasi mabisto ng mga bossing.para sa mga may conek jan = post naman kayo kung pano makapasok sa mga kumpanya nyo.para sa mga gustong mag abroad = tanong kayo ng concerns,tips,reviewers at kapag patok, share ninyo samin.basta Stealth:cool: .o,ayan na!inis na si Big Brother.:E game na?




This is a scary thought. I already feel sorry for the guys back there for having to put up with the bans, contract and 6 months notices. If they do this then this would make them completely under the mercy of their employers. Cessna1052, no one would be able to get out when they need to.
Is there anything we can do to help them ?

D6

[DeltaSix]

We will be having vacancies soon. Problem is, it will only be in turbo prop, but employer is willing to sponsor you if you have jet time.
No need to get clearance from POEA or PAL, the operator will not require all of these. Just convert ATP license to Australian by passing IFR flight test.

Think that this is only a step. I'll tell you more of the details when you PM me how to fly your current type rating here.

I can't promise that I can help all of you, but we will try.


Hope this helps.

D6

[Julie Andrews]

There's somebody from the PAL forum with user ID "flyjoy47" who has posted at least twice about "checking out" the discussions here on PPrune. Siyempre, something for the goats to ruminate on.

Nothing can be more tragic than telegraphing your "strajedies."

OK ba flyjoy? :}

[pek]

Guys, PPRUNE is a great way for us to voice our otherwise unheard opinions. We have to get the word out. Why should we be paid much less than industry standard when foreign companies are offering much more. We're worth more than we realize... remember LT has a lot of clout because he has the money. Then again we too have a lot of clout (at least collectively). Planes don't fly by themselves!! (Well they do acutually.. but don't tell anyone!!) There has to be unity when it comes to dealing with management. Voicing our opinions is good, but unless someone stands up and is heard.. it's useless. But who? Who in this environment of terrorized employees is going to give up what they've worked so hard for, for so many years? Who is going to risk losing their retirement? Who is going to give up their command? Who is going to sacrifice their livelihood and family? JDC? Our dead alpap? Unions work because of the mere fact that people are united. United against opportunists like LT that flaunt his wealth on the Forbes billionaire's list. http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.php?index=3&story_id=69030&published_site=16
We need to be united. Not to sabotage PAL or CP, but to make it fairer and safer. Tell me who wants to get into a plane when they know that one of the pilots is straight out of flying school with 200 hours? Leaving pilots means that invaluable experience goes to other companies that reap the benefits. Why should SingCargo, Cathay, Korean Air get pilots that the Philippines has produced and paid for? I can see management's point... but they've got it all wrong. I know most of you share this view. I read it on this forum, read it in the paper, and hear it on the flightdeck. So then... What are we going to do about it??? :ok:


Uh, what was so great about this post? Somebody hit the nail on the head when he said this forum would never be an avenue for redress. Guys, wake up.

[pek]

This Group is only finding ways to air their grievances just like you, meaning to throw it out in the air even if nobody cares. Why?, because they cannot do it freely on their own company Forum like the PALegroup for the fear of retaliation from the company.
So Pek, i suggest give them a break and let them do what they want, its their happiness and not yours.....Happy flying to you!

I have a better suggestion: listen to yourself first. Just because my appreciation of the entire thing is rooted in reality -and therefore opposes your naive views- you want me to stop airing MY views, "meaning to throw them out in the air?" (First time to encounter this concoction.)

But then again, is that not exactly the double-standard you, and others like you, so ardently criticize?

[DeltaSix]

I have a better suggestion: listen to yourself first. Just because my appreciation of the entire thing is rooted in reality -and therefore opposes your naive views- you want me to stop airing MY views, "meaning to throw them out in the air?" (First time to encounter this concoction.)
But then again, is that not exactly the double-standard you, and others like you, so ardently criticize?
Hey Pek, that's a bit harsh. Just because "they" don't share your views either doesn't mean their standpoint is not valid and unrealistic as you egotistically claim !!! The pilots in the Philippines have enough cause to air their views even if you think it will not mount to anything. But that's your view not theirs because while their future, their careers and their families are at stake here, they have every right to be concerned, alarmed and to air their grievances and maybe even to fire the first salvo against what they perceive as oppression and curtailing of their rights.
Cessna1052 appealed to you to "give them break" and I truly believe he said that out of good faith and not how you picked it up.Your comment about the double standard is a cheap shot and moreso baseless. Your the one who should try and "hear yourself" and see how pathetic your comments are !!! You sound like an ogre.
Guys, looks like another management plant :yuk: .
D6

[pek]

Hey Pek, that's a bit harsh. Just because "they" don't share your views either doesn't mean their standpoint is not valid and unrealistic as you egotistically claim !!! The pilots in the Philippines have enough cause to air their views even if you think it will not mount to anything. But that's your view not theirs because while their future, their careers and their families are at stake here, they have every right to be concerned, alarmed and to air their grievances and maybe even to fire the first salvo against what they perceive as oppression and curtailing of their rights.
Cessna1052 appealed to you to "give them break" and I truly believe he said that out of good faith and not how you picked it up.Your comment about the double standard is a cheap shot and moreso baseless. Your the one who should try and "hear yourself" and see how pathetic your comments are !!! You sound like an ogre.
Guys, looks like another management plant :yuk: .
D6

You see poor fella, the problem with you and YOUR bunch is that everytime somebody expresses views that do not conform to yours, you accuse him/her of being a mole and want him/her to just stop. Now therein lies the cheap shot. If you believe and say that LT's boat could be rocked, in a democratic setting I have as much right to believe and say that his boat is too big to be rocked. Makes sense? Or are you too much of a bigot to admit it? :8

I never advocated putting a kibosh on the airing of grievances. On the contrary, that is exactly what this forum will achieve - an avenue for the expression of dissatisfaction, but not necessarily redress.

Much better to sound like an ogre than to sound like a whino.

BTW, nakakita ka na pala at nakarinig ng ogre? Galing mo dude! Ako kasi hindi pa, and it must be because I live in the real world, unlike you and YOUR naive bunch. So I'll just say that you sound like a braying donkey. :{

[Julie Andrews]

Relax lang lah. I know who pek is. He's actually the only one who makes sense. The ship is indeed too big, which is why...well, he jumped ship. He's a good student of recent history: prudence is the better part of valor..............ok, if you haven't figured it out yet, remember 1998? AAAhhhh...

D6, management si pek? Yeah, right. Hahaha:ok: That's actually an insult to him. Those guys in Nichols can't get their verb to agree with their subject.

Cessna1052, say hi to FD, FG, and TZ. Happy Flying, as you love saying.

As for me, MABUHAY will always be it, although I don't get to say it anymore.

[DeltaSix]

Obviously Pek, we both live in two different worlds. If you have already jumped ship, then the one you call "real" is a lost world that can never be changed. It's probably easy for you to just say that the boat is too big to be rocked and "leave it be", on the otherhand, people in there are at the mercy of their employers.

No boat is too big to be rocked. Even Presidents get impeached, policies can be changed, and opinions can be swayed.Your attitude of sticking your head in the sand will not serve anyone any good. Get that through your head.

I don't know which side you're on Pek, and I don't really care.
But, if you are one of those who have jumped ship, then of all people you would understand where they ( who you call my bunch ) would be coming from. I will not subscribe to your shallow reasoning as there is more to this than what you perceive it to be.

Also, may I ask where did I say we want anyone to go away and stop posting on these forums just because they have a different view ???...... have you read my posts, where does it say ??.......... if my memory serves me, Cessna1052 even says "welcome" as we want to know their side of the story.

D6

[pek]

You started the name-calling by saying I sounded like an ogre, which only really exists in storybooks and in the inner recesses of hyper-imaginative minds. Do unto others, dude.

Not only can Presidents be impeached, they can even be overthrown, but only with what is called a "critical mass" backed by the military. Last month's coup failed precisely because there was no critical mass the military could rally around.

But you see, the problem with LT is not anywhere near trying to impeach/overthrow a President. Again, and I'm not surprised, you misread the situation. In a Third-World Republic like our beloved LUZVIMINDA, a Chinese - or anyone - with some serious dough will have every politician of consequence tethered to his/her tiny fingertips. Don't forget, he survived Marcos, Cory, Ramos, Erap, and as sure as hell will survive Ate Glo. Needless to say, he's got cunning and ,again, plenty of cash. Get that to YOUR head.

"My attitude of sticking my..." Well, my approach to life was never gung-ho, and you know what? This sort of attitude really works. Gosh.

If you don't care which side I'm on, why then do you even bother to launch your puerile tirades against me? You have got to be one of the most inconsistent blokes I have come across. YOU grow up!

To my fellow PALers (I used to be one of you), the element of surprise is key to any battle. Trust me, I know whereof I speak (unlike some people here).:ok:

To the others who post here, you will be well-advised that whatever "guerilla" tactics you make known here will only prove inimical to the interests of those left behind.

[kontra]

Guys, stop this word fight. It won't help us or those inside. You all have your points. But we cannot impose our beiefs to others, lets keep an open mind and not be emotional. We have to be united if we want to rock the boat.

I agree that if we or those still inside have strajedies to go around these proposals of management or government to hold pilots, better keep it under wraps. If those guys find out about it early, they can also counter act on it. We know how they think, and what they are capable of doing. As they say "lahat nababayaran". We know who has the capability of paying to get what he needs or what he wants.

Also, if we do it here by PM, how can we be sure that we can trust the person corresponding with us? Hmmmm. quite a situation here. Any of you guys suggest anything?

But regarding our concerns, feelings, or whatever about the situation, we can voice it out here. For others, they might think that it is useless. But for some, it is the only way to voice out without being prejudiced. And I know for a fact that some management pilots or staff are looking at this website.

Bottom line? Let's be united. Being divided is the reason why pilots are abused.

[kontra]

Have you seen the latest claim by PAL management that PAL pilots earn as much as US$4000-7000? Where do they get these figures?

Can somebody from inside photocopy his/her payslip and give a copy to the media also. Just to show the public what we are really paid.

I am sick of all these media mileage that management is doing to make us pilots greedy. As a matter of fact, the pay can be beared, but the treatment, cannot.

[embrunman]

Too bad you guys are so frustrated with PAL and others, but at least you live under the sun, in a beautiful country.
My question: do those companies hire expats with not too much experience, ie Canadian ATP, 2000hrs mostly as instructor, no jet but an expired TR on 733?
Hi from Alberta (-25C in winter, see my problem...)

[kontra]

I haven't heard of any airline in the Phils that hire expat pilots, sorry. Well, I see some foreigners in the General Aviation, but I'm not sure of their status in their company.

The counrty is great, the people are great, the airline is great, BUT the management is not.

[bisaya]

Lucio Tan has done so much for PAL pilots :suspect:
Mar 18, 2006
Updated 01:57am (Mla time)
Inquirer
THIS refers to the column (“What makes pilots special?”) of Solita Monsod. (Inquirer, 3/11/06) Allow us to set the record straight:
1. Over the past few years, Philippine Airlines (PAL) has taken significant steps to address the needs of our pilots, among them: improved pilots’ retirement package by 50 percent; use of part of their sick leaves, a privilege lost in the wake of the 1998 illegal strike; trip-pass benefits even without completing the required years of service; an incentive for technical stops on international flights, a benefit previously given only to the cabin crew; the Pilots Retirement Plan and the Pilots Occupational Disability Plan.
Also, PAL has asked the government to grant our pilots an income-tax holiday to match the tax-free status enjoyed by their Filipino colleagues in foreign airlines. For the long term, PAL has ordered five more trainer aircraft costing $1.5 million, which will enable us to double the output of new pilots to 56 a year.
2. The courts, not the Estrada administration, declared the 1998 pilots strike “illegal.” The Court of Appeals, in its August 2001 decision, held the strikers to have lost their employment status with PAL. The Supreme Court upheld PAL’s position in January 2002.
3. Since 1999, PAL has given yearly increases to pilots: base pay—35 percent; productivity pay for those with flying time of 60 hours and below -- 227 percent; for those exceeding 60 hours -- 161 percent.
4. The gross monthly salary (plus allowances) of our captains ranges from $4,000 to $7,000. Missed out in Monsod’s computation were the 20 percent contribution to the retirement fund and the 5 percent contribution to the disability fund.
Our medical benefits for them and their familes are among the most generous in the industry. In all, the total remuneration package for our senior pilots is not much off the $9,000-per-month (at the low end) offer of foreign carriers.
Consider, too, the unquantifiable social costs of taking overseas jobs, such as the pain of separation from family. Also, the job contract is for 3 to 5 years only -- enough time for the foreign carriers to train their local pilots -- after which the Filipino hires are no longer needed and they no longer have their previous career jobs to fall back on.
Monsod said that Dr. Lucio Tan treats our pilots “like dirt.” Considering all the initiatives Dr. Tan has taken for our pilots -- a vastly improved benefits package; yearly increases in pay; grant of additional incentives; a secure career with the national flag carrier -- such statement was most unkind.
Our company cares deeply about all our employees and it is our policy to provide them the best compensation and benefits package within our capacity, commensurate with their hard work and dedication to duty.
JAIME J. BAUTISTA, president and chief operating officer, Philippine Airlines, P.O. Box 1344, Makati City

[pek]

Yep, through their teeth.:}
You deleted your earlier post?

[pek]

Too bad you guys are so frustrated with PAL and others, but at least you live under the sun, in a beautiful country.
My question: do those companies hire expats with not too much experience, ie Canadian ATP, 2000hrs mostly as instructor, no jet but an expired TR on 733?
Hi from Alberta (-25C in winter, see my problem...)

There used to be a Portuguese in Cebu Pac. Before he joined, he was already married to a Filipina, who happened to be a niece of a Gaming official. He left the airline some years back, to migrate there. Maybe he prefers cold-weather operations.

[r2d2rebel]

Mr. Jaime Bautista, you are joking right? If you can put this on paper (& I mean a legal document) that you are giving PAL pilots $4,000 - $7,000 with a guaranteed retirement package, I'm packing my bags. I'll see you in Gate 1 in a moments notice.

[EY777]

Just wanted to add more info, this was quoted from AFP :
PAL scales back expansion plans amid pilot exodus
March 20 2006
MANILA: An ambitious US$1 billion (US$1 = RM3.70) six-year expansion plan by national flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) could be cut back if the airline fails to halt an exodus of pilots seeking better pay elsewhere.
"This is not a problem unique to PAL," Jaime Bautista the airline's president and chief operating officer said in an interview.
"Many airlines throughout the region are facing the same problem. The industry is expanding so fast, especially in India and China, there simply isn't enough experienced pilots to go round.
"So the easiest and cheapest way to get your pilots is to go to the established carriers and offer packages that make it hard for many pilots to refuse.
"It is cheap because you don't have to pay for their training because someone else has done that for you."
Late last year, the airline unveiled a US$1 billion expansion plan with the purchase of nine A320s with options for another five.
The plan was to have the new aircraft come into service between 2006 and 2008, with delivery on the options between 2009 and 2012 should the airline take them up.
"We have deferred delivery this year and will take up one next year," he said.
"It is not critical but we are planning to play it safe at least for the time being until we can stabilise the exodus. It is no point having the aircraft if you don't have the pilots," Bautista said.
A forum of local aviation officials in Manila last week warned that with the rate local pilots and mechanics were being poached by foreign airlines local carriers could end up grounded by 2010.
Some 140 senior pilots and over 1,900 aircraft mechanics have left for higher paying jobs overseas in the last five years the forum was told. "Being the biggest carrier in the country of course we feel it more than the others," Bautista said.
Of the 700 pilots who carry air transport licences (licences that qualify them to be captains) employed in the Philippines, PAL employs 440 of them.
From 2003 until the end of February this year PAL had lost 78 of its senior pilots to foreign competitors.
Bautista said a captain with PAL can gross a salary of between US$4,000 and US$7,000 a month.
"By local standards at least this is a very good salary but how can you match competitors, especially those in the Middle East and India, paying double and tax free. Here, our pilots are taxed at 32 per cent," he said.
Airbus Industrie in its global markets forecast for 2004-2023 estimates that the number of passenger aircraft in service will double to 21,759 in 2023, from the 10,838 at the end of 2003. - AFP

Best of luck guys.....

[batuta23]

all the discussion here makes the management people see how bitter we feel to their ways.they can spread their lies on the papers for all to see.they have the money for that.but putting in your quotes here sends a strong statement to those who can make the big decision.it's pilots who have the EDGE now and not management.i can say that others who've been monitoring the discussions here are starting to rethink their stand on not working abroad.:) just a little more push guys and enough shouving.

[Julie Andrews]

r2d2,

Our names are on that infamous list, remember?

batuts,

If Lucio's and Lilybeth's minions are able to monitor Pprune, why can't Winnie Monsod and the rest of Philippine media? Get my drift?:ok:
While you're at it, spread the word to the Cabin Crew as well. If Pprune is the only available avenue where muzzled voices can be heard, so be it.

Judging by the complexion of that Manila Times editorial, at least it can be said that the media, by and large, is on the pilots' side.

[Pandayan_Ni_Pandoy]

Philippine Airlines, The Brown Out is On.

1. Do not fly direct routing
2. Do not take intersection take offs
3. Fly the published instrument approach. No visual approaches
4. No deferment of writing of aircraft discrepancies into logbook.

I have only talked to a few pilots and will be getting more aboard.

[Foreign Worker]

1. No requests for direct routing - Fly the full SID. If ATC offer track shortening or radar vectoring, advise them "Request follow SID", "Request fly via flight plan routing".
Reason:- Track shortening does not give you the guaranteed min obst clearances that the surveyed, published routes do. ie. Safety.
2. No intersection take off - Intersection take-offs reduce the amount of runway length available for the t/o run, and the amount available in the event of a rejected t/off. They also increase the amount of noise produced over the departure path. An intersection take-off will require re-calculation of the take-off performance data, so they may be acceptable, but will delay take-off/pushback, until the new figures have been calculated and checked by ALL crew members.
3. Fly the full published instrument approach. Do not request visual approaches - First part (SID) discussed in #1. Visual approaches frequently lead to undershoot/overshoot situations, which may necessitate a go-around, rather than persisting with an unstable/destabilised approach. An extended downwind is the usual method of ensuring that a pilot won't end up high on finals, however this may result in higher fuel burns, due to operating the aircraft at low level in a high drag config (eg. Gear down & ldg fl ext.).
4. No deferment of writing of aircraft discrepancies into logbook. - Absolutely! You compromise the SAFETY of all on board by not IMMEDIATELY reporting all defects. Carrying one unnotifed defect may result in a serious situation should another defect arise that compounds the problem.
Our voices must resonate through all the media for the world to know the suppression of the Pinoy (Filipinos) by the corrupted wealthy few.
The print media will reach out to our local people, but by media that grabs worldwide audiences, such as this PPRuNe and others, we can spread the truth quickly in a short time. I also suggest letting your sympathies be aired here Give Filipino pilots their wings (http://70.86.224.210/~aqwquuwt/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121) so that Tan and the ATO know that not only the Philippines, but all the World is aware of their illegal actions.

[Cessna1052]

Bautista said a captain with PAL can gross a salary of between US$4,000 and US$7,000 a month.
"By local standards at least this is a very good salary but how can you match competitors, especially those in the Middle East and India, paying double and tax free. Here, our pilots are taxed at 32 per cent," he said.


EY777? Isn't this the Two letter code for ETIHAD?

[r2d2rebel]

Mr. Bautista, where did you get your figures that senior pilots receive $4,000-$7,000? Wake up, this is 2006! The current rate is 1US$ = 52.xx. And please dont make it appear that Mr. Tan bought $1.5million worth of training planes for a noble cause. Its business! you said it yourself, PAL Av School wants to produce about 50 ab initio pilots a year, thus, at P1.9 million per student = P95million. So the investment of $1.5million(P78million) makes good sense. Its a business strategy & not a noble cause as you claim that Mr. Tan has done so much for Phil Aviation. You want a noble cause? Bring back the scholarship in Av School.

[kontra]

Dont even think of doing the "media mileage" with Philippine Star. Have you noticed how biased thay are? It is always tha management side that they are reporting. Why? Look who is the editor of Phil Star and also look who is the editor of Mabuhay Magazine. Coincidence?

Do you know how they got the $4000 & $7000 figures? They included the trip pass (which we have to literally beg for boarding passes if ever we use these tickets), id tickets, medical benefits, retirement (which we still cant see a black and white of it), meal chits, shuttle boys, uniroms, per diems, productivity. But I tried to add them all up, it still cant reach $4000 or $7000!!!!

[tsuper]

I remember that type of operation from 1998. This is bound to catch their attention if you can muster some support from PAL pilots.

[pinoypiloto]

Our prayers and thoughts will be with you all!

[capt macario sakay]

Dont even think of doing the "media mileage" with Philippine Star....
Do you know how they got the $4000 & $7000 figures? They included the trip pass....
Correct ka dyan Kontra. I remember I talked to my "cheap" pilot before I left PAL & he laid down my salary including First Class tickets! Can you imagine how stupid PAL Managemant can be?! Travel benefits are included in computing gross monetary compensation! Does this mean PAL annual tickets can be converted to cash if you dont use them?:yuk:

[bisaya]

for the breakdown of your half a million peso monthly salary, please drop by:
TIME: 430pm
Friday, 24 March 2006
3rd Floor Flt. Ops Bldg.
Philippine Airlines
Gate 1, MBC
Andrews Ave., Pasay City

[unruly]

And what about the news that a senior management pilot who opted to retire last year after doing 20 years continuous service, got only PhP5,000.00 (about $98.00 at present rates) for every year of service. He got only that because upper management learned that he will be transferring to Asiana to be an instructor pilot there. Maybe that's the reason why they never came out with the black and white on the retirement plan, because there isn't any!!

[batuta23]

ok julie.will advice them.







r2d2,

Our names are on that infamous list, remember?

batuts,

If Lucio's and Lilybeth's minions are able to monitor Pprune, why can't Winnie Monsod and the rest of Philippine media? Get my drift?:ok:
While you're at it, spread the word to the Cabin Crew as well. If Pprune is the only available avenue where muzzled voices can be heard, so be it.

Judging by the complexion of that Manila Times editorial, at least it can be said that the media, by and large, is on the pilots' side.

[planestupid]

for the breakdown of your half a million peso monthly salary, please drop by:
TIME: 430pm
Friday, 24 March 2006
3rd Floor Flt. Ops Bldg.
Philippine Airlines
Gate 1, MBC
Andrews Ave., Pasay City

So guys,

what happened with the meeting? Has LT stopped the exodus by giving you AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE??:ugh:

[bisaya]

So guys,

what happened with the meeting? Has LT stopped the exodus by giving you AN OFFER YOU CAN'T REFUSE??:ugh:


you guys love peanuts? i dont.. :{

[bisaya]

Passion For Reason :
Why restrict the overseas Filipino professional?

First posted 03:07am (Mla time) Mar 24, 2006
By Raul Pangalangan
Inquirer



Editor's Note: Published on Page A12 of the March 24, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer


“REGULATE the exodus of skills and talents! Keep the best and the brightest at home!” screamed the banner of a full-page, paid ad that appeared in the Inquirer the other day.
That call was issued by a group calling itself the Fair Trade Alliance (FTA). It asks that we regulate the migration of Filipino professionals and highly skilled workers.
I share their concerns, but not their conclusion. You can only control people’s dreams at your own peril. Fair trade means that traders must be free to compete in the open market, and workers should be just as free to seek the highest value for their labor, locally or abroad. What is sauce for the capitalist goose should be sauce for the proletarian gander, even those whose labors are mental and not menial.
“Overseas employment, the nation’s economic lifeline, is turning into its gravedigger.” The figures indeed are staggering: 5 million overseas migrant workers and 3 million immigrants, sending remittances to support one-fourth of the population. The FTA warns that the continued outflow of talent has begun to “decimate [our] few but vital industries” and jeopardize basic services like health and education. The depletion of “mission-critical skills” has imperiled our hospitals, with a low nurse-to-patient ratio. And, most critical of all (and which may explain the full-page ad), our aviation industry has suffered from “foreign poaching” of trained pilots and aviation mechanics, and, in terms of investments in “experiential learning,” the FTA estimates losses of P1 million for each pirated Filipino pilot and around P500,000 for each purloined mechanic.
The portents are scary indeed, but the remedies are just as worrisome. The FTA proposes the “stricter regulation of the outflow of critical skills and talents in crucial and strategic industries.” That is technocrat talk for “Catch them at the airport.” A National Service Act will restrict the migration of “mission-critical professionals,” and require them to render some sort of compulsory community service for a few years.
There is, to start with, a minor hitch known as the Bill of Rights, which ensures every Filipino’s “right to travel.” International human rights treaties speak of it as the “right to leave and to return,” and the Supreme Court held that since the Constitution merely said “to travel,” that excluded the “to return” part. Well anyway, that’s what it took to bar Ferdinand Marcos from returning to the Philippines. By whatever interpretation, the right “to travel” still includes the right “to leave,” and that is the only part of the Bill of Rights that any aspiring Filipino illegal alien cares about right now.
At best, then, any return-service requirement needs to be custom-tailored to the nation’s needs. The period of compulsory service should be fixed and limited, and the covered professions must be confined solely to those truly in crisis.
However, if the problem is the drying up of the supply of professionals, then by all means let us increase the supply. If there is a shortage of nurses, let us open more nursing schools and train more nurses. After all, there are 84 million Filipinos; if even just 5 percent of us are of trainable age and competence, that’s already 4 million skilled brains. And if there is real demand overseas for their God-given talents, let them go where those talents are justly remunerated.
Perhaps the real problem is our schools, and our attitude toward diplomas and degrees. Students learn fancy skills for non-existent jobs, and end up jobless or underemployed. They learn Shakespeare in the land of Pepe and Pilar. Either we match our schools’ supply with the job market’s demand, or we accept it as perfectly legitimate -- as indeed it is -- that college students learn Shakespeare and then affect a Midwestern American accent in a call center.
I think the real fear is that to increase the supply of skilled brainworkers, we must settle for the lesser brained, and that the only way to maintain quality control is to limit access to the professions. I firmly believe that we can democratize admissions without diluting academic standards. Having been a teacher for more than 20 years, I have no illusions about Filipino students. But I have no illusions, either, about admissions tests: Maybe Albert Einstein might have flunked the UPCAT or NMAT admission tests -- after all, he said that “imagination is more important than knowledge.”
The FTA is correct that a return-service requirement should cover the societal investment in their education, but to enforce it by law would only create a class of bright but frustrated Filipinos chafing at their chains and hating the world, a perfect recruiting pool for terrorists and coup plotters.
But there is nothing to stop us from enforcing a return-service obligation, not by law, but by voluntary contract. For example, professors of the University of the Philippines (UP) who are sent abroad on fellowships at the university’s expense are tied down to a return-service requirement. By and large, professors have honored this obligation. There are some “Reneging Fellows,” as they are officially called, but I trust that the university’s lawyers diligently check on these deadbeat academics that have in effect run away with taxpayers’ money.
This system of voluntary contracts must extend to UP’s own graduates. Their education is heavily subsidized, but that subsidy is invisible. It leads to a sense of entitlement by the beneficiaries (indeed, a Darwinian sense of achievement that they beat others to the subsidy), and a lack of appreciation for the taxpayers who shouldered the true cost of their education.
It takes a village to raise a child. Then let the child know how much thanks he owes the village.
* * *

[r2d2rebel]

"It takes a village to raise a child. Then let the child know how much thanks he owes the village"...I couldn't agree more. I served my contract & served it well (actually w/ lots of commendation from within). Thank you PAL, but no thanks to the village officers & owner

[mach.86]

you guys love peanuts? i dont.. :{

heck my uric acid's killin me! wasn't able to attend the meeting but i heard nothing was in it for the ever reliable group 4 pilots! not asking much but the 300 L fuel allotment would have been really appreciated. what?! only those from groups 1&2 drive to work?!

[kontra]

heck my uric acid's killin me! wasn't able to attend the meeting but i heard nothing was in it for the ever reliable group 4 pilots! not asking much but the 300 L fuel allotment would have been really appreciated. what?! only those from groups 1&2 drive to work?!

If more group 3&4 started leaving PAL, then they will realize that you are part of the important 10% of the airline. Group 3&4 have the same training, it just so happens that most are not qualified to apply abroad because of low logged time, hence, the neglect from capt rock the boat and his sidekick. try to convince lilybeth to apply outside, that would surely attract attention

[EY777]

Yes Cessna1052, EY is the 2 letter code for Etihad.Was giving moral support for our colleagues in PAL & the other airlines in Philipines.
MAS (my former employer) had the same problem.You had LT & we had TR.Both were suckers.......sucking money from a company which was not fully theirs in equity.Don't worry, with the exodus of local pilots overseas & the shortage of qualified pilots in our region,something is bound to break,hopefully it will not take a crash before anything is done (god forbid!).MAS gave their pilots a pay rise recently, even after they were bleeding money (through management incompetence) as they know they will lose more if they didn' t pay them close to market rates.
So there will be light at the end of the tunnel, however our colleagues in Philipines must be united & not fall to the endless tricks.At the end of the day, a line must be drawn.Some of us did & we never regretted it.
Good luck again guys! :ok:

[planestupid]

Come on guys.... tell me what your fantastic new contract is? No one is talking about it figures, so does that mean the deal was good? How much? Should I fly for PAL again?
As far as group 3&4, they have 5 year contracts anyway. So they can't go anywhere. Management don't value you as much coz you aren't leaving like 1&2. The sad fact is, you can actually pay off your contact in less than a year with another company and still be better off than 100k/month!!:suspect:

[Reccah]

Must be big enough to make them stay. Who wants to leave their country after all?

[tsuper]

Basically what the loyalty program states that you will as a pilot promise to stay in PAL for 5 years for $25,000 for captains and $20,000 for first officers less 32% taxes.

This breaks down into approximately $285 per month for captains and $225 per month for co-pilots net.
In items 3 and 4, you promise to stay in PAL's employ for 5 years and resigning within 5 years will put you in breach of contract and make you liable for damages.

Item 5 states that you must be willing to sign any other document presented to you by PAL as they deem necessary.

Item 6 assigns PAL as your attorney-in-fact and authorizes them to claim your salary from your new employer.

Item 8 forever and irrevocably releases PAL and everyone connected with PAL from suit and liability from you.

This are the figures in our new program. I'm just wondering who dreamed up this new,bright and brilliant idea .

[Pandayan_Ni_Pandoy]

TAMA KA DIYAN TSUPER,The loyalty program sucks. Tying yourself down for 5 years with PAL is not worth the additional $285 and $225 for Capt. and FO. You are setting yourself up for a lawsuit from PAL and they have insulated themselves from any lawsuit. Philippine Airlines, The Brown Out is On.1. Do not fly direct routing 2. Do not take intersection take offs 3. Fly the published instrument approach. No visual approaches 4. No deferment of writing of aircraft discrepancies into logbook. I've got a few more aboard. Dissemination of information is slower because we don't have ALPAP to announce this thing but we're getting there.

[coopalsht]

Hey Pandoy, why are you calling for this brown out thingie. Aren't you trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by deliberately wasting fuel and slowing things down.

[Pandayan_Ni_Pandoy]

Hey Pandoy, why are you calling for this brown out thingie. Aren't you trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by deliberately wasting fuel and slowing things down.
Hoy Mr. Coo pal sht, have you read the Pilot Loyalty program of PAL. Are you stupid, crazy or what? Read between the lines of that program. Check it out. Getting yourself tied up for 5 years for 285 or 225 dollars a month. And it's not a golden egg this PAL goose lays. I'm not killing the goose, just ruffling it's feathers so that it may notice us employees.I'm still calling for the Brown Out. No direct routing, no visual approaches. I'm not forcing anyone into this. Just do as you see fit.

[Julie Andrews]

Sounds more like a Pilot Subservience Package - the rotten egg which the Peking Duck has just laid.

[SlamBam]

So what caliber gun did LT hold to your heads to get you to sign that pathetic piece of sh*t offer? Can you say, "Contract of Adhesion"?

I'd put the gear down 30 miles out.

[Pandayan_Ni_Pandoy]

Thanks for the support Slam Bam. And no thanks to Mr. CooPALsht. I need help getting this brown out thing known to PAL pilots. But don't put the gear down that far out. HAHAHA!! It would get their attention but please nothing that obvious. We want to do this anonymously to avoid harassment of individual pilots. You know how dyani and dyuli are. Please help me get support for the brown out. I got a few pilots and increasing but still need more.

[planestupid]

Here is an interesting article from Flight International Magazine!!
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...PAL+plans.html (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/03/28/205695/Poachers+disrupt+PAL+plans.html)


Poachers disrupt PAL plans
A shortage of pilots at Philippine Airlines (PAL) has caused the flag carrier to delay taking delivery of two Airbus A319s, pushing back the implementation of its narrowbody fleet renewal programme.
Delivery of one A319 from GE Commercial Aviation Services (GECAS) has been delayed into next year, says PAL, which adds it still plans to introduce three A319s this year, all on lease from GECAS.
A pilot shortage is the reason for the delay, says PAL, adding that about 75 pilots have left over the past three years and it now has around 440 pilots. “For a small airline…losing 75 pilots is quite a lot. We are reaching a critical level. So far we have not had to ground aircraft, but if the trend continues then we might have to,” it says. PAL is suffering from a pilot shortage because airlines from India, South Korea and the Middle East have been poaching its employees.



This is an adverstisment for foreign airlines to go to Manila and hire willing pilots! I'm telling you guys... this PLP is a joke!! Why get $5k more a year :{ , when you can get $5k more a month (minimum)?? Loyalty comes from willing participants... not employees that are forced to sign an unfair agreement. I especially like item 5. of the PLP!!!! You don't see this in the rest of the world because they are getting the right pay. Bahala ka na!!

[rjmore]

I just started reading this post and it is sad to say the least. I am married to a filipina and I looked into trying to fly there in the beginning. Keep fighting the good fight, DO NOT GIVE UP! If you can leave, get out and leave them hanging. Last time I checked, their fares weren't that low. As a matter of fact, if I had to pay retail, NWA and Cathay beat them on most international routes. They are making money, and can certainly raise your pay.

Just letting you know that you have support from some of us overseas!

[batuta23]

its looking like PAL doesnt want to worry about crew in the wide body A340's and B747's leaving to fly with other airlines so maybe its only these crew who are being offered the new incentive(loyalty contract). almost everyone in the narrow-bodies are tied up with training contracts so thats not much of a problem. when the wide-bodies ,most of whom are not hampered with a training contract, decide to leave then PAL will have a hard time looking for replacements and have to bear the lost income waiting to get these replacements qualified.

the sad thing is if all the pilots sign the contract then PAL is hassle-free for the next 5 years in terms of the exodus because they would be scared to get hit with a law suit(read tsuper's quote). and then there won't be any need to give in to whatever benefits or pay increases that the pilots ask for within this period.

face it.the only reason PAL has been plugging in more pay increases and benefits is because they are trying (in very little ways) to stave the exodus.this may all stop if they have all your signatures.

thanks for the support rjmore.welcome to the group.:O

[richkidpoorkid]

:sad: Kaptin M...i pity you...wake up this is 2006. Are you still stuck in 1998?
You should be working with EVA Air...the Filipino mafia here still discuss 1998 up there in the lounge up to this day.
Get real :that strike in 1998 was never going to work.
Soti was so stupid to believe that lawyer. Asia Brewery sponsors her channel 9 talk shows.
Strike vote?? There wasn't ever any strike vote!!!

Employees never win in the Phils. And you don't get any protection either from the gov't as clearly shown by ATO chief Jatico (Hati-an mo ako).
Lucio http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/46.gifhas the money & everybody listens...
With or without the 7 dwarves the strike would have not worked anyway.

But today by leaving PAL, pilots can make a better point than by going on strike aka suicide.

So Kaptin M...wake up: this is 2006.:sad:

[richkidpoorkid]

To Pandayan ni Pandoy: Brown out? luma na yan sir...it has been done way way back & the situation is still the same...
Just get out of there!!!!

[Pandayan_Ni_Pandoy]

I know Richpoorkid, we've done there, done that in 1998. I got a few applications thrown all over asia and the middle east. I'm getting out of here. I'm getting there but leaving some of the junior guys hanging will be selfish. Maybe these young second officers and narrow body pilots can get even a small pay increase from the brown out. These guys have nowhere to go YET. Give them a year flying those A320's and then we're talking qualified people for hire around asia. ...




TSUPER is right. Don't sign that Pilot Loyalty Program. Resigning within five years will put you in breach of contact and the company get sue your ass for damages due to grounded planes. .. .

What we are planning is a slow down that will not only affect fuel consumption but more importantly will cause rolling delays. Especially for the afternoon turnaround flight. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions and again, help me spread the word.

[stork]

I know Richpoorkid, we've done there, done that in 1998. I got a few applications thrown all over asia and the middle east. I'm getting out of here. I'm getting there but leaving some of the junior guys hanging will be selfish. Maybe these young second officers and narrow body pilots can get even a small pay increase from the brown out. These guys have nowhere to go YET. Give them a year flying those A320's and then we're talking qualified people for hire around asia. ...

im a junior pilot... thank you for the concern sir... one more stripe and im out of here... :ok: ... quite impossible for my two stripes to get me somewhere..

[mach.86]

im a junior pilot... thank you for the concern sir... one more stripe and im out of here... :ok: ... quite impossible for my two stripes to get me somewhere..

i'm with you on that. hope we get out of this sh**hole soon.

[richkidpoorkid]

Good luck to our young guys out there. Just go on improving your skills everyday. Learn more from each flight & have the initiative to learn more from other sources (try amazon.com for some nice books about flying & the profession).

But most of all learn more about interpersonal skills & how to be flexible always...

There is more of the world than such sh**thole run by sh**t heads.

Isn't that country turning out to be a communist state on planning of restricting people from leaving?

[kontra]

All the best to our young guys, Grp 3 & 4.

Here are my advises:
1. Keep on building flying time
2. Take the ATPL exams, even if you dont have plans of activating it yet, at least when the time comes, all you need is a check ride
3. Read on Jeppesen charts
4. Read FAA books, Gleims or ASA
5. Keep your logbooks tidy and in order

Good luck!

[rjmore]

Are the narrow body FO's not ATP rated? I've only riden on flights in the Philippines but some of the flying seems pretty challenging. Of course NAIA and Cebu are nice long runways but we go to Tagbilaran most often. Seems to be some rather challenging flying. Since you guys board with the cockpit door shut I've never had the chance to come say hi. Next time I go on a trip I'll try to say hello.

[kontra]

Domestic flights can be a real challenge in the Philppines, especially during the wet season. This is where we build our flying skills. As most of the sectors are about an hour of flight time, it means that for every 100 hrs flown is equal to 100 take off and landings.


ATPL is not required by the ATO and the company for narrow body jet First Officers. But it is required for wide body FO's. And wide body FO's act as cruise capts on long haul flights.

[richkidpoorkid]

RjMore you mentioned about Tagbilaran airport being flown by jets... I heard from a pinoy pilot that they fly the B737 to Naga airport which is 1.4 kms and 30 meters wide!!

It has a 6000ft or so mountain jst about 7 miles away on 1 side & a thousand foot mountain range on another end...& purely visual.

In the morning the fog can stay on the field & in the afternoon the crosswind can be something else.

I've flown the turbo prop there long time ago & I still cannot figure how I did it...these PAL B737 guys must be real real good!!!:ok:

I learned also that they conduct the final check on this airport...it is like if you cannot land on that airport you cannot be a PAL 737 Captain.

One A330 guy flying overseas who came back to the Phils to fly the B737 just gave up on this airport & went back to the A330 overseas!!!

And then get paid the way they do?...Unbelievable!!!!!

[richkidpoorkid]

What happened to that pal flight which did a reland at davao?
Who was the pilot?
It came out of a news flash here...

[stork]

Good luck to our young guys out there. Just go on improving your skills everyday. Learn more from each flight & have the initiative to learn more from other sources (try amazon.com for some nice books about flying & the profession).

But most of all learn more about interpersonal skills & how to be flexible always...

There is more of the world than such sh**thole run by sh**t heads.

Isn't that country turning out to be a communist state on planning of restricting people from leaving?


STALINGRAD!!!

[stork]

All the best to our young guys, Grp 3 & 4.

Here are my advises:
1. Keep on building flying time
2. Take the ATPL exams, even if you dont have plans of activating it yet, at least when the time comes, all you need is a check ride
3. Read on Jeppesen charts
4. Read FAA books, Gleims or ASA
5. Keep your logbooks tidy and in order

Good luck!


amazon.com..... Fly the Wing.... Handling the Big Jets..... and a copy of Fate is the Hunter to keep the spirit alive.. :ok:

hoping to put theory into practice soon.... and then free myself from the clutches of these slavedrivers at GATE1...





DOWN WITH CAPITALIST TYRANNY!!!

[coopalsht]

It's 1998 all over again. We've got a senior pilot asking for action to improve working conditions but apparently he has a back up plan (working as expat in another airline) in case the **** hits the fan. Unlike the junior guys he is so "concerned" about who are not qualified for anything else right now. I've seen that happen before in 1998.

[FREDDY MERCURY]

You guys should try Hong Kong Express , sounds like you could be marginally better off there .:}

[stork]

it has been awfully quiet.... is this the calm before the storm? or just another case of ningas cogon? wondering..... :cool:

[repapips]

Most probably the latter....i'm sure it's not the storm season back there. There are no storm signals whatsoever. In fact it's summer there now, very hot & humid indeed!
So i guess there's no storm coming....
More likely...as you said...NINGAS COGON! :zzz:

[mjz]

....there's no storm brewing out there... and surely no ningas cogon in the process. just wait and see.....:O

[poknut]

hi there! if i were you try to get a full type rating not so duties.. other airline would look into your flying experience... i tell you a pilot that flies an islander, navajo or simply c207, c206 would rather have bigger chances than an so fopr a330, a340 or the B744.. there this new cargo airline in clark wich operates b737-200. try to apply.. forgot the name

[stork]

clark.... TRANS GLOBAL.... progress quite slow.... 1 B737-200 flying to mainland china via laoag...

[batuta23]

not everyone in the narrow bodies (B737 and A320) are hampered from moving out of PAL because of a training contract.make a break for it and then once you've racked up your wealth(read:big dollar account in your philippine bank), go back to PAL.believe that years from now when you decide to come back PAL will still have a position to fill because the pool of possible applicants is getting smaller.not all Military,Gen Av pilots are leaning to a PAL career(well, maybe a jet rating) & PAL Avschool is never gonna go back to the old fly now-pay later scheme as they will be at the losing end if their 1.9M-Peso grads take off to foreign jobs leaving them in the dirt so the Av School wont supply much of the company pilot demand.

[sisig]

clark.... TRANS GLOBAL.... progress quite slow.... 1 B737-200 flying to mainland china via laoag...

Hi, could somebody please tell more about this airline as I've heard about them in passing a few months back and would like to know more. Why is the progress quite slow you think?

[richkidpoorkid]

forget about CX...they hire only nationals of former british colonies.

there is a pinoy there but this guy was born & raised in canada.

some pinoy pilots have a standing acknowledged application there for B747 cargo F/O based elsewhere like LAX but they haven't answered anyone in years.

[Cessna1052]

Have you heard of the Lone RP Guy flying for Air Nippon airways? He's a 737 Capt up there, and from what i've heard it is one opportunity whannabes shouldn't miss. Basic pay is US$8500+ the usual extras. He does some commutting coz this guy's family is based in Sydney. Check it out and Goodluck :ok:

[planestupid]

forget about CX...they hire only nationals of former british colonies.


CX does hire Yanks... I guess they were a British Colony once!! he he:E

[richkidpoorkid]

ah yes, you are correct.

Cx hires Americans too...

What ever happened to the pinoys who applied with Cx?

I hope they get through.

[richkidpoorkid]

And I still say it remains to be seen whether Cx will hire Pinoy pilots...

That place is for people of the empire where the sun never sets & yes for yanks too.

But there is no harm trying...

Good luck guys.

[rjmore]

CX does hire Yanks... I guess they were a British Colony once!! he he:E

Yup, until we opened a can of whoop ass on 'em...hehehe. Any news on your plight these days?

[richkidpoorkid]

hello cessna 1052.

Do you have a ballpark info on the package they offer in emirates?

Lots of guys might be interested.

Cheers.:ok:

[SIDSTAR]

Navitimer,

"80 hrs a month which is a killer." On which planet have you been for the past few years? Have you heard of the LCCs where all the pilots (including most of the management pilots) fly up to 100 hrs a month with no overtime pay and no crew meals. That's hard work! But the LCCs have at least got the mix correct. The more you fly the more you earn and they don't have an army of people back in the Head Office to feed. Everyone works hard and that's why they prosper. The likes of PAL, Garuda etc are time limited - being kept alive artificially by their governments through all kinds of direct and indirect subsidies. Actually, come to think of it, the same is true of United, American etc in the US who are so broke that Bush had to bail them out.

[richkidpoorkid]

hi SIDSTAR,

PAL (before meant plane always late or plane already left but now means pilots already left) is now privately owed (with a bit of gov't shares).

It is actually making money now but the owner has the habit (& yes he can get away with anything in the Phils) of exploiting cheap labor.

The big boss (majority owner) actually said this to the pilots & some management guys (visibility is the name of the game for these mgt people so that they can get places...brown nosing) in one social gathering.

The gathering which was meant to boost personnel moral actually did the reverse. A slip of the tongue? He meant it actually & that is really his business strategy.

He pays the people at the top a lot of money to kick the asses of those working at the bottom. This is much much cheaper for him.

And yes he pays his lawyers & gov't people good money too...then nobody can win against him.

Too bad...

[repapips]

Spot on, rkpk!
LT is such a cunning, scheming, devilsmart guy who achieves his goals by manipulating his employees.
Remember June 98? He really wanted the pilots to strike:
SO flights will be cancelled
SO he could go on print (full page newspaper- SO THE PUBLIC MAY KNOW) to tell the people that because the pilots went on strike, we have no recourse but to cancel most of our flights
SO the people would blame the pilots
SO he would have the upperhand in public sympathy(which is very crucial in the Philippines) in the case
SO he could cancel all losing flights (mostly the domestic "missionary" routes which only PAL flies to as an agreement with the government to give PAL monopoly. These flights go to places like Basco, Batanes in the far north & Tawi-Tawi in the far south which I believe are no longer serviced now.)
SO he could finally get rid of the airplanes doing all these losing flights like the Fokker 50 which he had been wanting to do ever since. He couldn't accept why PAL is operating these flights at a loss. It was against his keen business sense. Who the f..k cares about service to the people? Business is business!
SO in effect, he won. Who gives a s..t if PAL lose its pilots? We could always get others. They're only people. Besides, they will come back. And at a better deal: no more retirement fund, no disability fund, etc.
SO then it will be a sound business enterprise, trimmed of the fat (losing flights, losing aircraft, retirement fund, disability fund)
NOW all it has to do is make money. But first, it needs a little corporate raiding. Not all of PAL loses money. Maintenance Dept & Catering makes money not like Operations. So what to do? Since LT owns 51% of PR Holdings which owns 51% of PAL, he effectively owns only 26.01% of PAL as a whole. So he divides PAL into 4 parts & sells Maintenance (as one part) & Catering (as another part) to companies which he solely owns 100% (thru his sons). Thereby in effect claiming 100% of all the profits of these money-making departments while still losing a little (on the 26.01% share) on the money-losing departments!
How can this person do that, you may ask? Well, he used to have a tax evasion case worth 26B pesos ($520M) but recently the courts decided that it's the government who owes him billions of pesos. Look at it this way...
There are 15 Supreme Court justices.
I'm being sued for 26B pesos.
What if I offer 1B pesos to 8 of these justices (or to all of them, why not?).
If these 8 agree, which was highly likely (i don't mean to degrade in any way these SC justices but Robert Redford once said, "Everybody has its price."), these 8 will be beholden to me & make me win in my case(s). And I only lose 8B, not 26B so I gain 18B! Yee-hah!
And whadayaknow? LT not only wins the case, but also turns the table on the government because now, the government owes him!
And we are talking here of billions! What do you think the amount involved in the ALPAP strike was? It's a pittance in comparison!
AND SO THAT'S WHY THERE ARE FILIPINO PILOTS OUTSIDE THE PHILIPPINES. BEFORE, NOBODY THOUGHT OF LEAVING BECAUSE THEY WERE HAPPY WITH WHAT THEY'RE GETTING, RETIREMENT FUND AND ALL THAT...BUT NOW...?

[richkidpoorkid]

It is really a bad state for Filipinos that businessmen of LT's likes are taking over the country's livelihoods.

It is not only the airline.

Look at all those malls sprouting everywhere & killing all those small businesses. And good if they pay their employees justly.

Most of these businesses want contractual employees with no benefits at all. The wealth generated doesn't trickle down at all to the employees.

And these businessmen can get away with anything because they can pay their way around. People in public office in the Phils are too corrupt.

And so the Filipinos are going abroad to seek better wages & better working conditions.

Now is the Phils really meant for the Filipinos or for those foreigners who bought their naturalization papers?

And those those who sold them these papers are being rewarded well...look at the PAL lawyer whose father was the immigration official who arranged LT's papers & that ex-military guy turned customs commisioner who arranged for LT's goods into the Phils tax free...these people are the modern day Benedict Arnolds of our race.

And the big businessmen can always bring their wealths earned in the Phils elsewhere like homeland China...and they earned their money thru the blood, sweat & tears waged by the Pinoy.

So for us Pinoy pilots & whatever trade you are in...off to other countries we go...what a pity.:ugh: :{

Those who are left behind (we all have our own valid reasons for leaving or staying) are given the spoils...& are thus classified as mere cheap labor.

[semper fi]

......been browsing posts around here, very interesting story this whole PR saga, so do you think it's only for money that the other pilots leave the country or something else.....?:confused:

[repapips]

The strike happened not because of money but because of "Security of Tenure". The striking pilots left the Phils because they didn't have jobs and they need to feed their families. Had they not lose their jobs, they would have hung on and stayed with their families.

The PAL pilots of now are not strikers, they're scabs (well, most of them, if not all) and they crossed the picket line not because they can't feed their families but because they want to be ahead of the others. Simple opportunism! They grab the seniority, get their commands, well before the dust gets settled... Though most of them went back to PAL because they were afraid to apply outside the Phils, knowing how weak they are to pass the stringent admission procedures (not to mention medical) of foreign airlines.
Unfortunately, the dust didn't get settled but fortunately for them, they got their jobs & their precious commands. Now, realizing that Pinoy pilots (the strikers) can make it abroad, and armed with command time, these people got to thinking, "Hmmm...if they can do it why not me? Plus i have my command now while these strikers are still struggling on the right seat..."

To answer your question:
OF COURSE THEY WANT TO LEAVE PAL BECAUSE OF THE MONEY. THAT'S ALL THEY COULD THINK ABOUT SINCE JUNE 1998.

[repapips]

Thanks for your concern.
I hope you're doing fine as well wherever you may be. But you see, i was just replying to semper fi, as you can see from the title of my post. I'm not here to argue or discuss the merits/demerits of the strike. I just want him to know the real score about Filipino pilots since he sounded like he's not aware of the situation there in the Phils.
The strikers lost a lot because of the scabs: not only seniority, money, retirement, disability fund, jobs, etc but also friends, classmates, brothers & family. And they lost them fighting for principles but have kept their dignity intact as the years went by. No amount of discussion in pprune could ever compensate for this loss. I hope you find it in your good heart to give these guys credit where it is due. I just don't want people like semper fi (and maybe somebody else who doesn't know the situation) to think that all Filipino pilots (incl. the strikers) left and are leaving the Phils just because of money.
The strikers left because there was no other place to go and they have to work to feed their families. Some of them aren't even flying anymore and doing menial jobs somewhere just to make both ends meet.

[Cessna1052]

repapips,
very well taken, thanks !

Cessna

[richkidpoorkid]

I say that everyone has his different reason for staying or leaving PAL which everyone should respect.

But again this bully guy LT can get a way with his greed because people agree to his terms.

I say get away from there & show him he cannot get away with everything he wants.

The day will probably come when everybody can come back to PAL when things are different (& that is if you are young enough to see this happen).

Nothing in this world will last forever...& that goes for someone's greedy ways too.

Just a suggestion...

[semper fi]

And to you repapips,
i hope you are doing fine in the US, issues about this 98 strike had been argued, discussed and i guessed settled on this thread on the first few months of its existence, i beg you not to start it again. Lets forget the past and moved on forward, it will not help us recalling OUR mistakes....where ever we are now, believed me, its GOD's will.

........Sorry been away too long.....been havin a ball with the schumi and alonso gigs in jet blast. Well, everyone has his own opinion I guess of what is right and wrong.....So I take it repapips didn't bother to return to the motherland? I think C152 sez he's in the us of a? So what percent of the present drivers in PR joined the strike in 1998 anyway? What are the actual numbers here? Not many people were aware of the actual number of pilots who went on strike as to the actual number of pilots who didn't return.
What did management do to the line guys right after the strike? Did everybody who returned to the fold get accepted back? Sorry for the many questions mate.:O

[repapips]

Well, well.... Just as I've been saying to c1052, not everyone knows of the situation back in the Phils.

There was a strike vote sometime in May 98 and ALPAP (Airline Pilots Association of the Phils) members (around 600 at the time) voted "YES" overwhelmingly to the strike (around 99%). You can't have a better percentage than that. You can never get 100 % of the voters anytime.

When the strike was finally implemented, all union members went on strike, except for a few, who stayed inside & never joined. It was all hanky-dory the first few days, rally here, rally there until the seventh day...when management felt "enough is enough" and were ready to settle with the pilots...But whadayaknow? 7 Little Dwarves suddenly appear from nowhere & destroyed everything. These very junior 2nd Officers crossed over & offered their services, thinking that this is their best bet to get ahead of their colleagues & jump the seniority. This got Management thinking...."Hmmm...why don't you guys recruit 3 more pilots each so we can sustain our operation?" And so it went like that. These 7 recruited 3 each & those 3 recruited 3 each & so on...NETWORKING in full force! A few weeks later, PAL, having sustained their operations, trimmed of the operating fat (the money-losing routes & aircraft), fired all the remaining strikers which by then were about 500.

The real strikers stayed on & were never coerced or changed their minds about their principle, about what they were fighting for. They hung on in the hope that somehow their plight will be noticed by the government & will try to help them. But unfortunately, the government doesn't care. After the full page ads in the papers shouting "SO THE PUBLIC MAY KNOW....PAL will have to cancel flights because of the ongoing pilots' strike...", nobody symphatized with the strikers anymore, except their families, who were also by that time, beginning to get angrier & angrier with their husbands & fathers for striking because now they don't get paid. But still they hung on. Scabs continued on trickling to the other side while the strikers try to find jobs elsewhere.

Most went to the other airline in the Phils, Cebu Pacific; some to other less-known operators; and the rest applied abroad.

Now these scabs are widebody commanders now, either on the A330, A340 or B744. Their move paid off. And this is one of the times when I think "Crime really does pay!" And these guys, having earned their command time, want to make the most of it by applying abroad as well since PAL's paying peanuts compared to foreign airlines.

As of today, I believe ALPAP has given their blessings to those strikers who want to rejoin PAL, knowing how long they have suffered already without jobs, and which they couldn't help much (especially those Fokker 50 guys who suddenly found themselves unemployable after the strike because only MAS & KLM operate this type & which unfortunately don't accept expat pilots then). Some have rejoined PAL & soon got their commands as well.

Most of those who never went back & got jobs abroad stayed abroad & away from PAL.

I just hope this answers your question, semper fi. Again, I'm not starting an argument or discussion about the strike. I'm just stating facts.

[richkidpoorkid]

Hi repapips,

I think you've been away from the country that long that you didn't grasp the whole reality of the thing when the smoke from the chaos cleared.

The strike of 1998 was never going to work. Its just that the system in the Phils never works for this kinds of actions.

Sometimes us pinoy pilots think too american that we thought that we can do as the american pilots' union do.

we were wrong...Soti was wrong.

I am not a fun of this greedy guy LT either.

Nor that this 7 dwendes (you even forgot about snowwhite who was demoted to f/o but is now a capt again) are my friends.

but i just don't agree with your facts.

And in order to move on, you should be able to accept reality...& that is you like me made a big big mistake!!!

Stop blaming your fellow pilots then...you were partly to blame as I am.

Payong kapatid lang:) ...all the best.

[repapips]

Which of my facts, pray tell, don't you agree with?

I didn't say anything but the truth. And i have long since accepted reality, that's the reason i am not in the Phils now. I knew early on that the strike was a big mistake.

Which fellow pilots are you saying i am blaming? The 7 dwarves? The scabs?As i've said, i'm only stating facts. If it sounded like i was blaming somebody, well it's either your opinion or you're simply one of them because you are affected.

I mean, i'm not one who judges a person easily especially if i haven't seen him....And, as i said i'm not starting an argument or discussion about the strike....But, from the way you sound, you are indeed one of them...No striker would ever dare disagree with what i said, because IT IS THE TRUTH! The most one can do is add details or maybe revise my story a bit...
But to disagree??? Hmmmm..... You must be on the other side...

If there is something to disagree with, I believe this should be one:
I am not a fun of this greedy guy LT either.

Unless of course you don't find it "funny"...

[semper fi]

Hello again guys, had to work, did i miss something?

Sorry but this is all still strange to me, didn't you guys have a master plan when you went on strike? Like for example, what to do when this happens, etc etc, who did most of thinking for you? I beleive you said you had a vote but didn't that vote encompass a course of action or was it just a balls to the wall kinda thing? I would certainly not want to get into an airport if I didn't have an alternate right? That is very basic. So what was the alternate plan?
Doesn't the legal system there allow for a legal work return order? If so, what happened about it and what was the outcome when it was served?
Still so many angles to this really.........:confused:

[semper fi]

Repa, so what do you think of the angle by C-152? was your action doomed from the start?...............:eek:

[Skybound0210]

I have read the posts in this particular forum, and this will be the first time I will be replying so please do bear with me.

Everyone has made valid points regarding the Strike of 98 (which I am not too familiar with). As part of a union, you are within the realm of a group that looks out for each other's back, for better or worse. It's like a marriage. When everyone goes out on a picketline to fight for what they believe in, whether justifiable or not, you have to fight. Which is what the pilots did, from what I have read. For that I commend the pilots...especially the Junior pilots, who I feel were putting their very young careers on the line.

If what LT did or threatened to do was enough for some pilots (and I am expecting that these are mostly Junior) to go back to PAL, I am almost sure that it is out of fear of their career. However to some this would seem to be the easiest way to surpass their seniors for command and/or higher position...but let us not brand them as such.

You may not forget what has been done, but you surely can forgive. Everyone made mistakes with this Strike...others making more mistakes than others. But let bygones be bygones.

I am sure all of you guys are swell type of guys.

[richkidpoorkid]

Somebody from PAL sent this to me...so what's the real score??!!:confused:


My dear Friends,

This is to make known to everyone that, for my
retirement benefits and pay, PAL Management was kind
enough to grant me 1 month for every year of service,
the 25% representing PPRP and PODP and all other
benefits due a retiring pilot.

Another thing. My wife and I are not with another
airline. This should put rumors to rest.

Mabuhay kayong lahat!

Keep 'em flying!

Jimmy Del Carmen

[semper fi]

sounds like a heinilick manuever mates.................:}

[richkidpoorkid]

i agree with you mate...one of those strategies!

Cheaper to pay one guy than to pay everyone?!:D

[kontra]

Somebody from PAL sent this to me...so what's the real score??!!:confused:


My dear Friends,

This is to make known to everyone that, for my
retirement benefits and pay, PAL Management was kind
enough to grant me 1 month for every year of service,
the 25% representing PPRP and PODP and all other
benefits due a retiring pilot.

Another thing. My wife and I are not with another
airline. This should put rumors to rest.

Mabuhay kayong lahat!

Keep 'em flying!

Jimmy Del Carmen

Because he is the classmate in PAL Aviation School of those in position. Namely JA & JH. He also retired as VP for Training Department

[richkidpoorkid]

:E Heard through the grapevine
TAIPAN Lucio Tan is belatedly going into the mall and retail business himself, using a number of foreclosed Uniwide branches and the Ever-Gotesco branch in Ortigas as starting bases.

More money for this guy:E

How we wish he finally lets go of the airline:ugh:

[SlamBam]

:E Heard through the grapevine
TAIPAN Lucio Tan is belatedly going into the mall and retail business himself, using a number of foreclosed Uniwide branches and the Ever-Gotesco branch in Ortigas as starting bases.

More money for this guy:E

How we wish he finally lets go of the airline:ugh:

He needs outlets to peddle beer, cigarettes... and airline tickets.:O

[mach.86]

Mr. Jaime Bautista
President & COO, Philippine Airlines
Makati, Philippines


Dear Sir:

This is with regards to the current per diem received by the pilots flying to destinations that require layover. The issue being the unequal amount received by Captains and First Officers as supposed to the Second Officers, viewed as degradation of the latter’s right to a “fair meal” that the former are rightfully deriving benefit from.

For your information, Pilots belonging to Groups 1 and 2, Captains and wide-body FOs, get $75 per day regardless of the time of arrival while SOs get a measly $20 per meal. During the past meeting at Flight Operations Department at Nichols when you presented the then proposed PLP, we, SOs, call it shallow, were exhilarated with what we heard concerning our per diem but as it turned out we weren’t really a part of your ‘master plan’ maybe because enticing us seems premature or plainly any perk does not befit us. Categorically, it is not the amount that is the important matter here but the lowered morale that the affected pilots are experiencing that starts when they line up at NAIA check-in counter to claim their respective per diems, to when they see the Captains and FOs dining and they are aware that they don’t have enough to join them in a decent restaurant.

I am currently a second officer and I have passion for my job, thankful to the company for trusting in my capability to learn and be trained considering my minimal experience and skills as of the present along with my colleagues. We do not question the other benefits that the senior pilots enjoy for we know where we stand, but again, what we ask is a basic need denied us.

It is known to everyone that you have a handful of more serious problems than this petty request of ours but please take a few precious seconds of your time to look into this matter as we fear that the company unknowingly sows hatred (for lack of a better term) amongst us new pilots, making us feel unimportant and dispensable this early in our career. Hope you do not view this as cost but rather a long-term investment that we may all profit from.

In these difficult times we deeply sympathize with the company. I, in behalf of the Group 4 pilots, hope that you do not view this as apathy in our part, but merely a suggestion that has a more harmonious relationship between management and employees in the near future as its utmost goal.

Thank you for your kind consideration.

Sincerely,

A concerned Second Officer
Philippine Airlines

[stork]

RIGHT ON THE KISSER...

i hope they consider investing on people.. especially the young.. and hope they not wait until we get disillusioned. sooooo frustrating!!!

[kontra]

Dont get your hopes up. They way management thinks: SO's dont have anough time and experience to apply elsewhere. So, why bother? If there are SO's leaving for other airlines, then MAYBE, they will act on your case.

[semper fi]

:yuk: Get real guys, Chinese noodles cost more to make than other things,
your chairman doesn't give a noodles @ss. Stay on or leave, its that simple.

[planestupid]

M8.6,

I understand your frustration, but you have to look at it from the Management perspective. You aren't worth much at the moment and until you have gained a little more than flying a C172 you better just sit there and learn as much as you can. One day you might command a real aircraft, however till such times enjoy your three schedules to the US, read, learn and shut up!!! You might want to read the BOM just to refresh your memory....
The captain is : vested full authority and responsibility to manage the aircraft and the entire flight crew (includes you!!) in the safest, economical and most efficient manner without deviating from existing rules and regulations.
Just because you have been PIC of a C172 doesn't mean that you have the skills (YET) for command the B747. Management is desperate to keep pilots, even if the PLP is grossly lacking in remuneration.. they had a little bit of imagination by introducing the higher per diem. Would you say this is a good way of increasing take home, without giving it to the government?
Tell me M8.6 define a "fair meal"? Since when did you spend $70 on a single meal or see a Capt or FO spend $70? I think you have to assess what is important to you.
Just a bit of friendly advise coming from someone who has been in your position. Be careful when you speak on behalf of the SOs. Don't shoot yourself in the foot because you no longer have a union to protect you also concentrate on your career not on how much you earn. FYI...Next time you fly with your international FAs... know their monthly take home is more than yours!!

[filejw]

PS . Most airlines pay the same for meals. What is the S/O supposed to starve on a layover why you guys eat steak and Maine Lobsters?
And M.86.You write too well and make to much sense for a pilot, best you find some other line of work..LOL .Don't stick you neck out son... JW:D

[mach.86]

i apologize to anyone who might have been affected, maybe disgusted by this. i am compelled to retract but doing so would have made my real intention unclear to most. as i stated, i love my job and i have high hopes for the future of this airline. the figures are not at all that matter but the thought that we may have been taken too lightly is quite disappointing. regarding the per diem issue, maybe it would have not come this far had the company issued an official memo explaining why and who gets the added benefits so as not to stir up any unwanted speculations.

quote: "And M.86.You write too well and make to much sense for a pilot, best you find some other line of work..LOL .Don't stick you neck out son... JW:D"

filejw sir, i'll take that as a compliment. thank you for the advise.

[Soundbarviolatr]

No experience? No problem! I know a couple of people that have stepped out of a C152 in the states and stepped right into a B747 with PAL...And made LESS money!

And putting a squirt with less than a few hundred bug smasher hours in the flight deck of an airliner? I'm sorry but thats just as wrong as 2 little bo...nevermind.:ugh:

On the other hand:
"One day you might command a real aircraft, however till such times enjoy your three schedules to the US, read, learn and shut up!!!" "Just because you have been PIC of a C172 doesn't mean that you have the skills (YET) for command the B747."

Greeeeeat CRM/Mentor skills there Cap.

[Skybound0210]

M8.6,

I understand your frustration, but you have to look at it from the Management perspective. You aren't worth much at the moment and until you have gained a little more than flying a C172 you better just sit there and learn as much as you can. One day you might command a real aircraft, however till such times enjoy your three schedules to the US, read, learn and shut up!!! You might want to read the BOM just to refresh your memory....
The captain is : vested full authority and responsibility to manage the aircraft and the entire flight crew (includes you!!) in the safest, economical and most efficient manner without deviating from existing rules and regulations.
Just because you have been PIC of a C172 doesn't mean that you have the skills (YET) for command the B747. Management is desperate to keep pilots, even if the PLP is grossly lacking in remuneration.. they had a little bit of imagination by introducing the higher per diem. Would you say this is a good way of increasing take home, without giving it to the government?
Tell me M8.6 define a "fair meal"? Since when did you spend $70 on a single meal or see a Capt or FO spend $70? I think you have to assess what is important to you.
Just a bit of friendly advise coming from someone who has been in your position. Be careful when you speak on behalf of the SOs. Don't shoot yourself in the foot because you no longer have a union to protect you also concentrate on your career not on how much you earn. FYI...Next time you fly with your international FAs... know their monthly take home is more than yours!!

Planestupid,

Give the guy a break...from what I have read, mach86 just wants things fair when it comes to PER DIEM. You can't just tell him to do his time and shut up. Although I would agree with you as far as he not speaking on behalf of the other SOs, we can pretty much feel that the sentiments of other SOs are not far from what is mentioned.

No one ever complains about the salary difference between those in Grp I, II, III or IV because from where I am standing, pretty much your responsibilty and authority will determine which group you are in. There should not be any discrimination as far as PER DIEM is concerned. Regardless of how high $70 is for a PER DIEM, does that mean Mach86 shouldn't air his sentiments regarding his $20...A per diem is an allowance given for your daily consumption...so does that mean a Capt& FO consumes more than an SO? My stand on this is that per diem should be equal regardless of pay grade...what's yours planestupid?

Oh btw, please get off the "you were just a PIC on a C172" crap. What's that got to do with the price of tea in China. He was just talking about per diem. Just my two cents of course...nothing personal.

[semper fi]

To me shortchanging someone else because he is quite low on the food chain
reeks of rotten tuna. The big fish get to eat steak and lobster because management thinks it's cheaper to raise allowances than it is paychecks.
Life is never fair, that doesn't mean they should just clam up. The SO's point is quite valid, he sits in front and should be treated with professional courtesy in every aspect of the job otherwise the only thing other people see is the two pilots up front. Work at it boys, don't give up.

[Cessna1052]

I have noticed that most of the guys got the value totally misunderstood...or miscalculated.?
- regular per diem for Capt's and FO's = US $75 per day.(active PAL pilots can correct this)
- regular per diem for SO's is based on a US$60 per day, and not $20 per day( the original post means that they are just getting $20 per meal).

Question: can you Fine dine on a $75 allowance(Steak or Lobster)?, i dont think so. So, for the Second officers please don't be sad, coz your Capts and FOs goes to the same fastfood and eats the same food as you do,(they just save a little better). So, i may conclude that its not an issue of Allowance for Food, rather an Allowance for Savings,lets get real about it.

Just an Advise:
-visit Costco and 99cents store only once in 3 of your states flt.
-avoid Fine dining restaurants.
-avoid going on City tours or bay tours, PER DIEMS not built for it.
(if you really have to, make sure you bring extra money)

Calling the attn of any Second officer; Don't you normally receives a $80 per diem for a 24hrs stay in the states?(this is what i remember getting before).

[Skybound0210]

Cessna, I think you made it clearer as to the per diem situation at PAL. But a per diem of $50 would actually even be suffice. You made very good points on how to save money...one does not have to go and eat "lobsters" for a meal...Mcdonald's is OK (not a healthy option of course). Fly high chap.

Mach86, if you are getting a per diem in the amount that Cessna has mentioned, then that isn't that bad...although I would feel that equality in the profession (per diem in particularly) is always called for, don't lose sleep over it. Just do your best, love your profession, and continue flying well...for as long as the disparity is not that discomforting, make the most of being an SO, and never forget to look back to where you came from once you get up there - remember that you will most be remembered and respected by the way you treat your juniors, and peers....I think there was a time when PAL wasn't highly regarded with respect to this matter.

[mach.86]

Mach86, if you are getting a per diem in the amount that Cessna has mentioned, then that isn't that bad...although I would feel that equality in the profession (per diem in particularly) is always called for, don't lose sleep over it. Just do your best, love your profession, and continue flying well...for as long as the disparity is not that discomforting, make the most of being an SO, and never forget to look back to where you came from once you get up there - remember that you will most be remembered and respected by the way you treat your juniors, and peers....I think there was a time when PAL wasn't highly regarded with respect to this matter.[/quote]


i would have to reiterate that this is not an issue of much i'm getting. i will live on junk food if i have to. i posted those figures just to clearly state that there is a difference. and i find that regardless of how negligible it is, as a matter of principle, SOs are still being trampled upon. lowest in the food chain... yes but only in terms of pay, experience, and hierarchy inside the aircraft. the company entrusts us with the right seat for practically half the flight to ASSIST or even COMMAND if any untoward incident happens. No one can tell me that we carry no burden in making sure the aircraft gets to its destination in one piece. if that isn't worth anything, then i rest my case. the captains and FOs i have flown with so far has treated me with respect as far as my position is concerned. they say gone were the days of abuse of seniority and i believe that to be true somehow. come the time that i command an aircraft, treating my juniors lowly would be eating my own puke.

[richkidpoorkid]

Now this is why things will never be solved in the airline.
You are indeed slaves down there!!!
And they do not want him in New Zealand either.

Lucio Tan
Philippines' most notorious crony capitalist comes to NZ
- Murray Horton
There is so little Philippine investment in New Zealand, or any other kind of economic inter-action, as to be almost invisible. There is, of course, poor old Victor "Vicvic" Villavicencio, whose ownership of the Lyttelton Marina has been one of the great commercial disasters of recent NZ history (a "once in 50 years storm", in October 2000, blew the flimsy thing to pieces and sank nearly every boat "sheltering" within. Lawyers are planning their world trips years in advance in anticipation of the proceeds from the tsunami of litigation that resulted. The storm struck a couple of days after new owners were announced. They quickly voided the sale, which added to the legal mess). Then there’s Eduardo "Danding" Cojuangco, who is a huge name in the Philippines, but unknown here. He has become known for paying record prices for race horses at the annual NZ yearling sales. But that’s about it.
However, our interest was definitely aroused when the Prime Minister, Helen Clark, came to Christchurch, in July 2001, to (among other things) open the Lignus Exchange, an Internet-based lumber and log trading exchange, set up by the McVicar brothers, who are well known in the Christchurch timber industry. It was stated that a Singapore company, Unifize had taken a 20% stake in the Exchange. Right at the end of the Press report (18/7/01; "Asian stake in local Internet timber trader") it was mentioned that Unifize is owned by "Filipino-Chinese billionaire Lucio Tan and family interests".
Lucio Tan is definitely somebody to keep an eye on. He is the Philippines’ richest man and one of the richest in Asia. But it is the way in which he has made his billions that perfectly illustrates the crony capitalism that has plagued the Philippines (and a lot of other Third World countries). About the only remaining "check" on foreign investors coming into New Zealand is that they be of "good character". Tan fails spectacularly.
Top Presidential Crony: Marcos
He comes from poor Chinese immigrant descent (Chinese were not entitled to Filipino citizenship until the 1970s) and started off as a scrap dealer – thus fulfilling the Filipino stereotype of Chinese. As a young man he moved into the tobacco industry, where he first met the young Congressman, Ferdinand Marcos. That was the key. In 1966, when Marcos was President, Tan founded Fortune Tobacco, which is now the country’s biggest tobacco company. It accounts for over half of all cigarettes sold in the Philippines. Fortune took off after Marcos imposed martial law, in 1973, thanks to generous tax and other incentives. In 1977 Tan bought a bankrupt bank from the Government, which is now Allied Bank, one of the country’s top banks. In 1982 he established Asia Brewery, benefiting from a Marcos ruling that allowed new beer companies to open. So he is now the Philippines’ top cigarette and booze baron. Indeed he is known as "Mr Cigarette".
During the long years of the Marcos dictatorship, Lucio Tan was his closest crony. In 1987 (after Marcos’ overthrow by the People Power revolution) Rolando Gapud, Marcos’ financial adviser, swore an affidavit to the Presidential Commission on Good Government: "I know that Mr Marcos and Mr Lucio Tan had an understanding that Mr Marcos owns 60% of Shareholdings Inc, which owns shares in Fortune Tobacco, Asia Brewery, Allied Bank and Foremost Farms…Mr Lucio Tan, apart from the 60% equity of Mr Marcos, has been regularly paying, through Security Bank, 60 to 100 million pesos a year to Mr Marcos, in exchange for privileges and concessions that Mr Marcos has been giving him" (Public Eye, January-March 1999; "Into The Light"; Sheila. S Coronel. Divide the pesos by 50 for a $US approximation). In 1986, when Marcos was compelled to end martial law and call an election, the workers at Tan’s Fortune Tobacco factory were loaded into "Love Buses" and sent en masse to cheer for Marcos, after which they were paid allowances by the company (of course, Marcos "won" that fraudulent election, and was then overthtrown by the outraged people).
In December 1998 the Philippine Daily Inquirer ran an explosive front page series of articles, in which Wonderwidow and shoe fetishist, Imelda Marcos, opened her books to the paper and detailed just which cronies owned what. Her motive was revenge – she said that the Marcos cronies had been given all sorts of companies and assets by the late Ferdinand, for safekeeping (until things settled down), then refused to give them back to the Marcos family. She claimed, as one PDI headline put it: "We own practically everything" (5/12/98). She reckoned that Marcos, having obtained all sorts of companies by fair means or (very) foul, dished them out to his mates: "I won’t be president of any company because I’m already President of the country" (7/12/98). Tan got 12 companies. All the cronies paid Marcos hundreds of millions of pesos per year into his secret bank accounts, in return for privileges and concessions (Ferdinand used the name "William Saunders" for his hidden accounts and assets; Imelda was "Jane Ryan"). She wasn’t very flattering about Lucio Tan: "…he’s nothing, just somebody who used to buy used bottles" (9/12/98; "Imelda: We made Tan, Cojuangcos").
Top Presidential Crony: Estrada
After Marcos’ downfall, Tan faced a hostile President in Cory Aquino. But he continued to thrive and acquire more major assets. In 1992 he bought the privatised Philippine Airlines Ltd (PAL - known universally as Planes Always Late). He attached himself to the rising star of Senator Joseph Estrada, who went on to become Vice-President under Fidel Ramos, then was elected President, in 1998. Tan was the major financier of his successful Presidential campaign. He became Estrada’s closest crony, regularly being seen with him in public and travelling with him (most unusual for the usually circumspect Filipino-Chinese business class). Estrada looked after his mate – when the tax department charged Fortune Tobacco with P26.5 billion in tax evasion, Tan’s well placed connections throughout the bureaucracy, judiciary and the political system (including the President) ensured that the charges were dropped (the Court of Appeals ruled that the Government had filed its case 11 days too late)
Solita Monsod, economics professor and former economic planning secretary, said: "Lucio Tan is a role model for the worst kind of conduct as far as our national economic objectives are concerned. He signals that you can evade taxes and get away with it, pay the courts and get the judges to decide in your favour, get good lawyers and delay your cases. The messages that are given by the kind of treatment that he gets from the Government are the antithesis of what we need for sustainable development: an even playing field and Government intervention of the right kind" (Public Eye, January-March 1999; "Into The Light"; Sheila. S Coronel). Tan is a past master at dispensing bribes to politicians – the same article recounts him giving P100,000 "Christmas presents" to Congressmen in 1998. And the Estrada government made sure that Tan would have no more tax hassles by appointing a new tax commissioner who proclaimed himself a longstanding friend of Tan.
In the late 1990s, PAL took on two Taiwanese airlines in a dispute that led to the cancellation of the Philippines’ air agreement with Taiwan. For keeping PAL afloat, Estrada hailed Tan as a "hero". He was no hero to PAL’s workers and their unions, whom he had locked out and bashed by company security goons, in a contract dispute. For some time PAL was grounded, leaving the Philippines with no national airline (an even worse aeronautical predicament than Air New Zealand found itself in recently); Tan was one of the five co-winners of the 1998 Notoryus Award - he was adjudged by human rights groups to have been one of the worst human rights abusers that year (no mean feat, given the competition in this field in the Philippines) for his anti-labour policies and union busting at PAL). In 2000, the Philippines was compelled to resume the Taiwan air rights agreement, on Taiwan’s terms – Tan was looking to sell the airline.
Estrada went the way of Marcos, in January 2001, when People Power 2 overthrew him – universal disgust at the way he flaunted running the country as a private piggy bank for himself and a coterie of cronies, Tan foremost, led him to where he is now - in custody and on trial, facing the capital charge of plunder. But Lucio Tan emerged unscathed. True to form, he has renounced Estrada and carried on profitably under President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo. Business is business – politics is only the means to enable him to acquire more wealth and power. And any means will do. Lucio Tan is the very worst sort of crony capitalist and far from the sort of foreign investor that should be welcome in New Zealand.
This has, of necessity, only scratched the surface on Lucio Tan. Visit the excellent Website of the Philippine Center for Investigative Journalism www.pcij.org (http://www.pcij.org.ph/) to read an extensive collection of articles on the misdeeds of Lucio Tan.
This article was first published in Kapatiran 19, August 2001. Kapatiran ("Solidarity") is the newsletter of the Philippines Solidarity Network of Aotearoa. Annual membership is $15. Make cheques to PSNA, Box 2450, Christchurch.

[semper fi]

So much talk about LT this and LT that, face the music mates..... he knows his business and won't let go of the cash cow that feeds his other companies.
Better yet, just put up or leave......really simple answer to the equation really. If you don't have the time and experience, toe the line, when the time comes if you really mean what you say, tender your papers , walk out the door and never look back, there is another world out there you know......:bored:

[kontra]

i agree with semper fi, its either take it or leave it. LT wont give in to your requests or demands. THERE IS A LOT BETTER WORLD OUT THERE!!!!! and it is more rewarding too

[paolylo]

hi! i'm new here in the forums... i just happened to surf by this thread and needed some info about PAL Av School.

my father was from PAL but now flies for a reputable airline that i don't want to disclose. right now, i work at a call center and i'm only doing it for the working experience and decent starting pay. i would like to go to PAL Av School and be a pilot someday. but my dad (who doesn't have much faith in PAL as a company) suggested that i apply in PAL as something else (hr, cabin crew, ticket sales, etc.) before i enroll in the Av School. is this advisable or would it be ok to enroll straight at Av School? (i'm a college graduate) i also wanna ask whether or not it's a good time for me to apply at the Av School given the current situation of PAL.

thank you!

[eroplano]

hi! i'm new here in the forums... i just happened to surf by this thread and needed some info about PAL Av School.

my father was from PAL but now flies for a reputable airline that i don't want to disclose. right now, i work at a call center and i'm only doing it for the working experience and decent starting pay. i would like to go to PAL Av School and be a pilot someday. but my dad (who doesn't have much faith in PAL as a company) suggested that i apply in PAL as something else (hr, cabin crew, ticket sales, etc.) before i enroll in the Av School. is this advisable or would it be ok to enroll straight at Av School? (i'm a college graduate) i also wanna ask whether or not it's a good time for me to apply at the Av School given the current situation of PAL.

thank you!
Hi there paolylo! The shortest distance between you and a cockpit is a straight line. I suggest you go on and apply directly to Av School. I think they are in need of cadet trainees and pilots (as this thread proves). Maybe your dad has his reasons otherwise. I Don't know if the fact that you are your dad's son would lessen the chances of you getting in (baka striker s'ya). I hope that wouldn't be the case.

Prepare yourself physically, psychologically, emotionally, and of course financially (2 Mil).

Go on....Submit that resume and pray. Now is the time!

Goodluck

[kontra]

Paolylo,

No harm in trying to go straight to PAL AvSch. Why dont you try? If it doesnt work out, then you apply for other positions in PAL, and you can try again applying for PAL AvSch

I heard they offer scholarships again. But only to a few per batch. And you will be tied with them for 15years. Im not sure of the length of the contract.

Nothing much to prepare for, just be physically fit, you must have 20/20 vision.

Good luck

[paolylo]

Hi there paolylo! The shortest distance between you and a cockpit is a straight line. I suggest you go on and apply directly to Av School. I think they are in need of cadet trainees and pilots (as this thread proves). Maybe your dad has his reasons otherwise. I Don't know if the fact that you are your dad's son would lessen the chances of you getting in (baka striker s'ya). I hope that wouldn't be the case.

Prepare yourself physically, psychologically, emotionally, and of course financially (2 Mil).

Go on....Submit that resume and pray. Now is the time!

Goodluck

thanks! i've been trying to look for information about the Av School but i don't think they have a website. all i know is that it's located in Clark(?). my dad will take care of the financial part of the deal (would there be quarters located in the premises of the Av School or do i look for a place to lodge around the area?). preparing for the rest is my problem :ouch:.

about my resume, my current work isn't as technical as flying a plane. also, my college degree has nothing to do with math, sciences, or engineering. i'm also trying to gauge my chances (i've been trying out the MS flight sim on the PC) in even getting in the Av School.

[paolylo]

Paolylo,

No harm in trying to go straight to PAL AvSch. Why dont you try? If it doesnt work out, then you apply for other positions in PAL, and you can try again applying for PAL AvSch

I heard they offer scholarships again. But only to a few per batch. And you will be tied with them for 15years. Im not sure of the length of the contract.

Nothing much to prepare for, just be physically fit, you must have 20/20 vision.

Good luck

my dad would also stress the necessity of physical fitness in the Av School... how long would the schooling be? 2 years or more? i still have 20/20 vision.

i'm not really counting on a scholarship although i would be intrested if i can apply for it. 15 years seems to be a pretty long time considering the PAL pilots' issues with management.

[kontra]

my dad would also stress the necessity of physical fitness in the Av School... how long would the schooling be? 2 years or more? i still have 20/20 vision.

i'm not really counting on a scholarship although i would be intrested if i can apply for it. 15 years seems to be a pretty long time considering the PAL pilots' issues with management.

Physical fitness is not as hard as it used to be. No more early morning jogging, pushups, sit ups, etc. It is just basic academics. But of course, you have to be in good physical condition when you apply.

The whole program lasts about 18-24months. Depending on the weather conditions in Clark. There are barracks in the Omni Aviation Compound, which they rent out for PAL Avschl trainees. Omni is just outside Clark Intl Airport, which has a parralel runway with CIA. This is where PAL does its flight training.

If you father still have a connection with PAL, ask him to contact Engr. Meneses. He is in charge of the PAL Avschl. His office is in the B737 Sim building in Gate 1

[mach.86]

paolylo, check out www.philippineairlines.com (http://www.philippineairlines.com) and click on PAL learning center link if you want to find out some info on avschool and engr meneses' (manager) contact nos. i just gotta say that guy is a piece of work. if you can find a way to get past him, say an endorsement from a management from training or flight ops, that would almost assure you of a slot in the next batch. flight training is at OMNI (clark) though there are rumors that they're planning to move it somewhere in batangas. a new batchof trainees was interviewed last month i think, expecting to start september or october. the fun part of flying with PAL is at avschool. good luck!

[r2d2rebel]

my dad would also stress the necessity of physical fitness in the Av School... how long would the schooling be? 2 years or more? i still have 20/20 vision.

i'm not really counting on a scholarship although i would be intrested if i can apply for it. 15 years seems to be a pretty long time considering the PAL pilots' issues with management.

Just one question paolylo:are you really intereseted to be a pilot at all costs? If you are really that interested then go for it! Here's the number of PLC (PAL Learning Center) in Padre Faura, Manila - 5269123. Ask to be connected to Aviation School.
To be an airline pilot is a long process with lots of trials & possible downfalls along the way. Go ask your dad what he went through to get to where he is right now. Maybe that's the reason why he's not encouraging you because its a hard life... it just looks prestigous.
All the best!

[paolylo]

Just one question paolylo:are you really intereseted to be a pilot at all costs? If you are really that interested then go for it! Here's the number of PLC (PAL Learning Center) in Padre Faura, Manila - 5269123. Ask to be connected to Aviation School.
To be an airline pilot is a long process with lots of trials & possible downfalls along the way. Go ask your dad what he went through to get to where he is right now. Maybe that's the reason why he's not encouraging you because its a hard life... it just looks prestigous.
All the best!

thanks for that info!

i know that following my dad's act would be the hardest to follow. he did it the hard way coming from the Air Force during the early 80's. he was one of the first B-737 FO's during the late 80's and became the youngest B-747 captain after the strike.

let's just say that i wanna be a pilot because i know of no other way how to raise a family :O.

[kontra]

Hi Paolylo,
you know bro theres no other person who is best to ask than your dad, he's been there and did it all, as you said he made some history for himself already. The question is, is he still there in PAL? I've heard guys who are affiliated to Pilots who left PAL recently for another company are either given a hard time joining or totally rejected during screening. The son of a 330 Capt working for Asiana was rejected because of this, then theres one expal pilot working for an airline in the Mid-east putting her daughter to the Avschool was told to write down some form of letter or whatever promise or excuse it is, just to let her daughter in.
If your Dad happens to be with another airline already, Ask him if he did nothing wrong to those Admin guys in PAL on his way out, otherwise your dad knows as well that he has to do something to put you in that course you want.

All the Best!!!

I agree. JA & JH are not the type of management people who you can call professionals. They act as if they own the company and the pilots who work for PAL. They have this sort of being a god mentality. Well, you cant blame them, they have to support their lifestyle that they are willing to sacrifice the whole pilots group to look good to the upper management.

So, if your dad is in good terms with these two, then you may have a chance. If not, or even if your dad is a good man and he left, those two will still give you a hard time. What they cannot do to your father, they will do to you. That's how things go in PAL. So, better ask your dad about this.

[DeltaSix]

They act as if they own the company and the pilots who work for PAL. They have this sort of being a god mentality.

hmmmm....... looks like you need to do some major sucking up with these two guys.

Enough said..... just play the game, get it over and done with. At least you get in.


D6

[eroplano]

thanks! i've been trying to look for information about the Av School but i don't think they have a website. all i know is that it's located in Clark(?). my dad will take care of the financial part of the deal (would there be quarters located in the premises of the Av School or do i look for a place to lodge around the area?). preparing for the rest is my problem :ouch:.

about my resume, my current work isn't as technical as flying a plane. also, my college degree has nothing to do with math, sciences, or engineering. i'm also trying to gauge my chances (i've been trying out the MS flight sim on the PC) in even getting in the Av School.

Doesn't matter what you did in college as long as you don't have a lot of failures. Doesn't matter if your present work is not as technical as flying a plane as long as you have good study habits.

The tricky part is getting in....and the secret to staying in is a good attitude....towards work, others and yourself.

Stop wasting time....GO NOW!

[teeepee]

thanks for that info!

i know that following my dad's act would be the hardest to follow. he did it the hard way coming from the Air Force during the early 80's. he was one of the first B-737 FO's during the late 80's and became the youngest B-747 captain after the strike.

let's just say that i wanna be a pilot because i know of no other way how to raise a family :O./////// if your dad working for a foreign airline and earning a good dough ask him to send you to USA to get your basic flying and learn the trade the right way having an FAA license is the ingredient to foreign employment which is everybody heading anyway,don't even think of sticking or being loyal to PAL its not worth it!good luck kid.....

[teeepee]

:E Heard through the grapevine
TAIPAN Lucio Tan is belatedly going into the mall and retail business himself, using a number of foreclosed Uniwide branches and the Ever-Gotesco branch in Ortigas as starting bases.

More money for this guy:E

How we wish he finally lets go of the airline:ugh://///// if LT will let go of PAL now it will collapse virtually,the company is just a "SHELL" now with nothing in it, but Flt crews and employees....catering is gone and maintenance as well, sad part of it is nobody has the audacity to rectify the scam and that includes GMA GOVERMENT.LT is also now considering of taking the precious medical benefits from the employees he he he JH,JA,LL,and the rest of those guys in gate1 doesnt care as long as their ass covered,my sympathy.......

[eroplano]

/////// if LT will let go of PAL now it will collapse virtually,the company is just a "SHELL" now with nothing in it, but Flt crews and employees....catering is gone and maintenance as well, sad part of it is nobody has the audacity to rectify the scam and that includes GMA GOVERMENT.LT is also now considering of taking the precious medical benefits from the employees he he he JH,JA,LL,and the rest of those guys in gate1 doesnt care as long as their ass covered,my sympathy.......

JH, JA, LL - wonder what these guys say in their bedtime prayers?

[repapips]

I'm out of my wits now...been trying to figure out who this LL is. I know JH & JA but LL?

[psychomotorman]

I'm out of my wits now...been trying to figure out who this LL is. I know JH & JA but LL?

LL = Koyang. just an educated guess...

[teeepee]

I'm out of my wits now...been trying to figure out who this LL is. I know JH & JA but LL?///// LL? eh sino p d yun bestfriend ni pitek n pnagsimulan ng lahat gulo na kinunsinte n alpap sa tulong n bumbay
:mad:

[rsajlk]

LL = Koyang. just an educated guess...

Thats absolutely correct!!

[kamikase88]

totoo ba balita na pilot at cabin crew di puwede magresign before 6 months notice. parang holocaust ah!!

[kontra]

Kamikaze,

Sad to say, but its true. Unfortunately, management decided overnight that you have to serve 6 months if you want to resign, with or without a contract / training bond. We are thinking, is it to make your recency and your atpl lapse? So you cannot work for another airline because you dont have a valid license and not current?

[DeltaSix]

Cessna1052,

So, what happens if one resigns today ( for those not bonded ) and give them a months notice ? What damage can they do to you ?


D6

[kontra]

I have heard some of them were tried in a kangaroo court. Charged with awol. They will be charged with "damages that resulted in your awol". Because they will still give you a flight schedule after your 30days notice of resignation (which is the only time required under tha labor law)

Do you think things will be better after JH & JA retires? Or will they retire? Their positions are non-flying positions. So that means they can hold on to their posts parang tuko. After them it will be LL....what do you think of him?

[DeltaSix]

I have heard some of them were tried in a kangaroo court. Charged with awol. They will be charged with "damages that resulted in your awol". Because they will still give you a flight schedule after your 30days notice of resignation (which is the only time required under tha labor law)


I guess if they make you sign an agreement requiring you to give 6 months notice then you're well and truly stuffed ( no means of maneuvering ).
But, if you did not sign any papers agreeing to this BS and under this labor law of 30 days you give them notice, then it will be their fault if they write you up for a flight sched after your last day with them.

I know it's not that simple but, if I was in their shoes, I'd look for a job somewhere else and just disappear. Just my two cents worth.

D6

[kontra]

I guess if they make you sign an agreement requiring you to give 6 months notice then you're well and truly stuffed ( no means of maneuvering ).
But, if you did not sign any papers agreeing to this BS and under this labor law of 30 days you give them notice, then it will be their fault if they write you up for a flight sched after your last day with them.

I know it's not that simple but, if I was in their shoes, I'd look for a job somewhere else and just disappear. Just my two cents worth.

D6

No agreement was signed by the pilots. It was posted one day at the pilots lounge notifying them of managements decision to require pilots 6 months notice.

Disappearing is what pilots are doing now. File for 30days then disappear

[DeltaSix]

They'll surely not feel good knowing some people hoping for their early demise.

He-he-he, that bad eh ?.... I can only hope that for the sake of everyone this all changes for the better. On the other hand, this might be wishful thinking though.

Kontra, I was gonna ask how the pilot's maneuver their way into another employer by JUST DISAPPEARING but this thread is probably being watched by management.

I can certainly understand their standpoint and that they are trying to protect PAL's interest and bottomline which is commendable, however there is certainly a Human Rights issue here that needs to be addressed. By trying to prevent them to leave in such a manner, they are just making things worse.

Why can't they just pay them a little bit better if not at par with their overseas counterparts and the exits will certainly stop or at least retain the crews longer without feeling under duress.

QF is offering it's crews better renumeration so they won't lose them to the likes of Emirates and others.


D6

[kamikase88]

they think the are above the law. those contracts are not even binding in court coz its onerous. mas matindi gantin ng Diyos sa kanila. tingin ng mngmnt sa line piloto sa PAL tagabalot ng sigarillo.

[DeltaSix]

they think the are above the law. those contracts are not even binding in court coz its onerous. mas matindi gantin ng Diyos sa kanila. Just be patient kamikase88, as they say "Every dog has it's day".... Learn as much as you can, log in the hours and charge all these to experience and don't look back. Just keep going, persevere.


tingin ng mngmnt sa line piloto sa PAL tagabalot ng sigarillo.If you believe this then they have won. I look at you guys and I envy you. At least you are building hours in the Airbus for your future. I believe that most of you will not be there for the rest of your lives, think of it as a stepping stone for something better.


As a very famous guy from PAL said, "its cheaper to train Pilots" -
What do they mean by this ?......... an Airbus type rating is so expensive, even the CCQ will still cost them money.

D6

[kontra]

It is cheaper in the long run even if it costs them close to P2M to train one pilot. Just imagine all the benefits, retirement plans, etc that they will save everytime a pilto leaves. Even when the pilot leaves, they still make money by asking them to pay the training bond.

[DeltaSix]

D6,
1.5M to 2M in pesos is just peanuts for LT, train you and use you.Fair enough?, yes. This is just the same amount other airlines spend training their own pilots, but this "other" airlines gives you a better pay and benefits. So, why would PAL raise its pilots salaries when they can recruit and spend peanuts on the training? - this was the famous guy's contention.

C1052

Well, as kamikase88 says - his perception of the pilots are a bunch of "tigabalot ng sigarillo"..... they're worth nothing so their pay is nothing. No wonder he is losing his pilots.


D6

[paolylo]

hello again...

i already made my resume and gave it to my dad, he'll send it to someone and see if i can get a recommendation or what once he comes back. he met up with some PAL pilots when he was here and they told him there's already a batch scheduled to start next month. if ever, i hope to make it on the next batch that would be applying early next year.

my dad doesn't talk about PAL to us in the family at all ever since the time he left for his new employer and his retirement after 18 years in PAL is something like 3 months of my current salary at the call center (he did manage to get the last of his non-priority plane tickets for the family). i showed him this thread and he just shook his head (with a smile) when he saw those three initials you were mentioning.

[Burnett]

The seven dwarf :mad: killed the camaraderie in PAL, all of them have their personal interest look at Capt del Carmen he just quit and cannot get his retirement pay. He cannot stand Capt Andrews on how he ran the Flight Operations. They also killed the Dodo tradition which for me the blood line between all of us DODO, connect us classmates and upperclassmen which came from totally different world and upbringing become brothers. However, now the up coming ab initio class we call the Montessori class are crying for letting them wake up early and asking for pity for Ten push up and pumps are all bunch of Shabby people. Why we also pay our training but we are Man enough to take all the bull****s and it made us better persons more than anything else. :D So all in favor of the tradition Pls Stand Up!!!! :) LONG LIVE THE DODO TARDITION ;)

[semper fi]

Mates, gday agayn, wot's a dwarf? How does a dead dodo fall into the equation of your happiness there in the Far East? Been in the bush lately pullin' weeds.

[Burnett]

Mates, gday agayn, wot's a dwarf? How does a dead dodo fall into the equation of your happiness there in the Far East? Been in the bush lately pullin' weeds.

Good day to you Cpt. Semper Fi.. Those seven dawrf's are the group of short people ( no even 5"7) manages flight operations and their scumbag classmates of Ab-initio 1971-Alpha. The dead Dodo resurects in the aviation school evrytime there is a new class in training " DODO System". The flightless bird we all love even if he's Bull**** dumbird. Thats the tradition in PAL, capt sir!! to answer your question. :confused:

[semper fi]

right place at the right time I guess :} :} :} are they all in managment?

[teeepee]

I have heard some of them were tried in a kangaroo court. Charged with awol. They will be charged with "damages that resulted in your awol". Because they will still give you a flight schedule after your 30days notice of resignation (which is the only time required under tha labor law)

Do you think things will be better after JH & JA retires? Or will they retire? Their positions are non-flying positions. So that means they can hold on to their posts parang tuko. After them it will be LL....what do you think of him?///// yup damn rt.kangaroo court for everybody in gate1 they will throw you the "book", an expired CBA,gate1 law,or whatever they will think off para ''BUENA CARA"sa makati/// JH,JA,LL retires??? well if things will come out as planned as this new"CP"says things will be entirely different in gate1(not to mention that JH,JA,LL nursing a ''ticker problem'') matter of time ika nga ng matatanda...this new"CP" is the man to watch he goes to makati in the morning drinking if in MNL often, giving wrong lopsided info's,having coffee, rubbing elbows with executives and LT,the irony is they believe him!!! nagmamadali ang pobre for the VP position he he he (neighbor airline president :p :p :p knows) LL will not in any slightest chance get to any higher position as off today, this ''CP''has been shooting him down from day one after june 8,1998 and he just gained feathers on his cap as far as LT is concerned,for what reason ???,we don't know....aassh sa gate1 as ,they say in pampanga....

[semper fi]

tp, when you say CP, that means chief pilot? is that how i get it?:D
Indians smoke a peace pipe, what does this CP smoke?:mad:

[teeepee]

tp, when you say CP, that means chief pilot? is that how i get it?:D
Indians smoke a peace pipe, what does this CP smoke?:mad:///// heheheheh damn rttt 4 cp....pissss pipe 4 each one

[rsajlk]

Burnett,
I am definitely not one among those dwarfs you mentioned, but isnt it time to park this issue once and for all? Its been many years now, and we all knew that somehow all those who went into that dumb strike were all at fault. WE WERE ALL STUPID TO LISTEN TO THOSE DUMB LEADERS AND PUT OURSELVES IN FRONT OF THE LINE FOR SOME PEOPLES FIGHT!!!!!!!!!
And i"ve noticed, old school ka pa rin. I would say that you're still probably sticking yourself in PAL, otherwise you could have discovered already that outside PAL this thing that you said Camaraderie or brotherhood(yabang lang ito, because you want yourself to be treated as a Senior). Di na uso sa labas ang Sir, if I were you I will resign from where you are so that you will know personally what is the kind of Pleasantries you will get from the other Airlines. From where I am, position gradients doesn't exist(if you know the meaning of this), no assholing, and no imposition of Seniorities, But their is still camaraderie that exist.
And one more thing, CAPT DEL CARMEN stated on his letter through the PALpilots group that he indeed received his RETIREMENT from PAL.(Nasaan ka noon?) Happy flying to you.!

PS. enlighten us about this DODO brotherhood you're saying, aside from calling each other Brothers?(Sharing ng putok?, easy passing on the checkrides?,protections?, knowing somebody if that somebody turns out to be an ADMIN someday? tell us please....)


C1052


Amen to that, Cess1052. It happened 8 years ago and should be laid to rest. Peoples lives were screwed but such is life, as they say..We all must move on, as I and a lot have..It was great to have flown for our beloved Pal but other doors opened fortunately. Let bygones be bygones, learn from this experience and lets all move on.. Besides Mr Burnett,,those dwarves that you mentioned are not in management,,None of them are,,Some have left for other airlines while some remain.. Please get your story straight..No offense to anyone of course...

[semper fi]

I said peace pipe, ha ha. Guess there will still be a lot of peaced people when this CP takes over. When will it ever end???:confused:

[teeepee]

Hi Tp,

Is this CP with the initials B.G.? aka "Butch G."///// your guess is good as mine sir just got the info from a very reliable source :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[crash&burn]

Hi guys,

Long-time viewer, first-time poster.

The DODO tradition definitely had its advantages. Trainees and newbies were more than likely to come to a flight fully prepared in terms of route knowledge, radio frequencies, flight-deck SOPs and over-all attitude. This was probably due to the extensive "networking" available and provided by the upper-class to lower -class system.

But it is a brand new world.

Today, as one instructor duly noted, most Second Officers from AvSchool coming in training expect that they would be taught everything and are, consequently, left behind in the "loop of things" during a flight. The rationale is that having paid for their tuition, they have a right to expect to be taught everything. But their learning curve would be much less steeper had a more pervasive network of "info-dissemination" been at hand.

As you see, "putoks" are not completely useless.

This is not to imply that newer products are less capable, only more handicapped in the training process. However, it is still up to the individual trainee on how his training and career will eventually pan out.

Again, other airlines have dispatched this similar system and have come up with safe and proficient flight deck crew.

If this system is beneficial to PAL in the long-term, only time will tell.

Safe flying everyone

[repapips]

Hi guys,
Long-time viewer, first-time poster.
The DODO tradition definitely had its advantages. Trainees and newbies were more than likely to come to a flight fully prepared in terms of route knowledge, radio frequencies, flight-deck SOPs and over-all attitude. This was probably due to the extensive "networking" available and provided by the upper-class to lower -class system.
But it is a brand new world.
Today, as one instructor duly noted, most Second Officers from AvSchool coming in training expect that they would be taught everything and are, consequently, left behind in the "loop of things" during a flight. The rationale is that having paid for their tuition, they have a right to expect to be taught everything. But their learning curve would be much less steeper had a more pervasive network of "info-dissemination" been at hand.
As you see, "putoks" are not completely useless.
This is not to imply that newer products are less capable, only more handicapped in the training process. However, it is still up to the individual trainee on how his training and career will eventually pan out.
Again, other airlines have dispatched this similar system and have come up with safe and proficient flight deck crew.
If this system is beneficial to PAL in the long-term, only time will tell.
Safe flying everyone
I totally agree with you, "c&b"!
The very first class that didn't undergo this "dodo" training in PAL Av School produced the first accident/incident in a very long time. That was when a Tomahawk clipped some power cables somewhere in Plaridel, Bulacan sometime in the very early 90's.
It's not just about the knowledge and its dissemination....it's a lot more about DISCIPLINE!
It's like this: Once you're there in the Av School "dodo" class, you hate all your upperclassmen because of what you & your classmates were being made to do or suffer...And you just can't wait to get out...
But the minute you're out, you can't help but thank these same upperclassmen for bringing you up to speed. And as you relive these experiences in your memories, you can't help but smile... What an unforgettable experience!
And this is what the others who say negative things about this "dodo" training don't have. So ex-"dodo" guys, just let them be...because they don't know what they missed. And you non-"dodo" guys, please stop demoralizing the ex-"dodo" guys...you don't know what you're talking about.

[semper fi]

Isn't breeding what it's all about???? You may be an ex dodo but if your momma didn't teach you right, well......................:confused:

[repapips]

Isn't breeding what it's all about???? You may be an ex dodo but if your momma didn't teach you right, well......................:confused:


Yes, you're right semper fi...
But I didn't say it's ALL about knowledge, it's dissemination & discipline. These are just a few of the many characteristics of the dodo. Mind you, most of them, if not all, have the breeding you're talking about.

It actually forms part of the initial acceptance process up to and including the training itself...which included, among others, a course on Personal & Business Etiquette as conducted by the respected Ms. Conchitina Sevilla-Bernardo.

Hope this clears some confusion...

...And thanks for your concern...:)

[planestupid]

The dodo tradition is dead. And good riddens! I have some great memories, but I didn't need to be degraded, abused and belittled to make me the pilot that I am. Sure there is a good point about knowledge and its dissemination, however we would have learnt it without people making us squat or reporting to your upper classmen at midnight or jogging on the spot for an hour. Most people want respect and learning anything including flying is best learnt with respect. Back in my day we didn't pay for our training and the best of the best were chosen to fly with PAL, unfortunately the ones chosen now are the ones who can afford it. Just speak with line captains for the 320 espeically. Those newly upgraded from SO to narrowbody FO. They have 2000 hours of what? Paperwork? And the sleep for half of that in the crew bunks!! What they need are hands on instrument apporaches, actual landings, actual takeoffs or even sim time. Flying the 737 sim every six months is not enough to keep current! So the quality of pilots coming out of AVschool may be good, but they aren't great.
The dodo is extinct and it should stay that way. Other international airlines have dumped this tradition nearly 30 years ago because it doesn't promote good CRM. It would be interesting to hear from other ex PAL pilots that are working outside of PAL and their experiences !

[semper fi]

well, CRM,,hmmm, that would be a rather alien word in cultures that promote military or ex military styles or codes of conduct. You won't know what CRM is until you leave the nest and live in the real world, sorry to say that. :uhoh:

[crash&burn]

Hey everyone,

Valid points on all your arguments!

Accidents are not completely attributable to whether a dodo system was in place or not. Previous generations of ab-initio pilots in other airlines/military establishments may have had similarly higher rates (as compared to today) due to the technology at hand. As one old-timer said, those Grummans weren't the easiest planes to fly.:eek:

Fact of the matter is that accident rates have gone down vis-a-vis flight rates in the last century by as much as 70-80%. This has been due to improvements in aircraft engines, avionics, aircraft design and of course, CRM.

Most accidents by now are attributed to human factors/error, a point being adressed by CRM programs. The percentage of accidents caused by mechanical or other equipment-related failures has gone down significantly as compared to the ones caused by human error.

But they do happen, unfortunately. It's just the nature of the beast.

So keep it safe everyone!:ok:

[crash&burn]

Hi Cessna 1052!

Kudos to you and your attitude. That's right, discipline should be inherent and you showed you could make it on your own without much help. And I couldn't agree more, FOs in other international airlines (like the ones from SQ) can quote you provisions from the page of the book itself!

And the checklist-eating, head-slapping, "you're the absolute worst pilot I've ever flown with" days should indeed be over. No room for that in a professional cockpit.

Though I look back with amusement and just laugh at it and other experiences with my classmates come reunion time. I know, I know, same old stories!

That being said, not everyone comes with the same mindset and attitude as yourself when it comes to training or their career. As planestupid said, trainees in PAL before were chosen by a thorough filtering process wherein we were able to get the cream of the crop. Unfortunately, nowadays the selection process is biased towards those with the ability to pay.

That's not necessarily to imply that those with money will automatically be of lesser intellect or discipline or drive. Only that by making the screening process less "democratic", we seriously limit our talent pool.

Our concern should be that we come up with new pilots, financially able or disabled, who come up to standard in the line with the same general attitude as yourself. Hopefully, we can do this without having to resort to threats or actions.

Why do we want that? So we can export more pilots and continue our world domination!:E

Straighten Up and Fly Right!

[semper fi]

You know what all.......All the memorization and knowledge of manuals will not help you land a 200ton metal amalgamation in driving rain and 20+ knot crosswinds, it takes feel and alas, experience to put it down where you need to...........:rolleyes:

[semper fi]

Hello C-152-II

Thank you for your analogy on the subject of experience versus technical knowledge. I agree with you somewhat. As we may or may have not heard the old adage that says

" When you begin your flying career you are given two buckets, one if full of luck and the other is empty. The object here is to finish your career before your luck runs out and you fill the other bucket with experience".

You may wonder what luck has to do with being technically adept. Nothing I guess , you see in my lifetime I have seen the progression of people through the ranks of aviation and many good souls have burned the midnight oil in the search for the holy grail of knowledge and the right stuff. However, life is never fair and these technically adept individuals with loads of experience have been passed in the queue because of rival individual connections to CEO's , heads of training, managers, instructors and the like.

So a little bit of luck would definitely help here, imagine you being slotted for an upgrade and a minor incident could derail all your upgrading plans not to mention your future. When an airline hires you, the first thing ever considered is experience, i.e. logbook time, not your technicall prowess. Technical knowledge is something that can be imbibed later on with a little elbow grease. When you are caught in the middle of a situation that warrants a correct action, you can count on experience to pull you through.

It would be difficult to reach down deep and try to pull a rabbit out of a magician's hat without the rabbit being there. As they say, inexperience always rears it's ugly head. I am not lambasting the inexperienced mind you,
We were all there once, the important thing I guess is to keep learning and
be content in the fact that there will always be people out there with a little something to share with you and not to take it against them but to assimilate the information and put it to good use in the future. That would help fill up the bucket of experience a bit faster.

I hope I am making sense here. Silver linings and Happy Landings........:D

[Old Aggie]

Don't know why beveryone is getting so concerned about PAL pilots. I tought they were all sc..bs.

[semper fi]

;) I guess everyone is important in his own little way, surely you may not have gotten to where you are today without a little push from your mates.......right OA?

[Pascual7E7]

I am new to this forum and in need of some help. I am a flight instructor in the United States born to filipino parents. Due to the current conditions in the US Aviation industry such as low pay for regional pilots and bankrupt airlines, I wanted to know what my chances were of flying with PAL with all the talks of pilots leaving for overseas carriers. I am still in university but have a year left with all the FAA certification.

I just wanted to inquire about
1 Pilot requirements
2 What I need to do to get in
3 Is it possibble for an American born to fly with PAL

I have an uncle with PAL and an aunt with the ATO. So maybe I think this could help but my uncle is a supervisor with the Technik Maintenance division.

Thanks

[machten]

Pre, don't even think about it. You should read starting from pg 1 of this thread and find out for yourself. And your uncle should know better too. I suggest you finish up school, get on with ExpressJet - move to the left seat ASAP and rack up the command time, then try WN B6 FDX or UPS. OR if you really want to fly that shiny big jet...you can always take a few jars of vaseline with u to PI and fly for our beloved national airline.

[semper fi]

Maybe C1052 can help you with your problem, he seems to know what the ins and outs of flying for a foreign carrier in the Far East like Pal woudl be. bout it C1052, wanna help a newbie out?

[semper fi]

dual citizenship? Does that mean Chinese and Filipino? :}

[Pascual7E7]

Thanks alot guys for the input. I really appreciate it. It's just I don't want to fly for a US regional carrier for right now. I mean if i can fly a bigger jet overseas at first, then maybe it would be better for the long term for me of getting a job in the US with a reputable carrier such as Continental, American, Delta, or United instead of flying their regional jets for 8 or even 10 years.

[teeepee]

Thanks alot guys for the input. I really appreciate it. It's just I don't want to fly for a US regional carrier for right now. I mean if i can fly a bigger jet overseas at first, then maybe it would be better for the long term for me of getting a job in the US with a reputable carrier such as Continental, American, Delta, or United instead of flying their regional jets for 8 or even 10 years.///hey kid go just drive a county bus in your place, rather than driving those pal planes the wide body capt. gets 2800$ / mo. you cn't pay your bills even if you go smuggling fake rolex wathches to usa and canada like somebody i know he he just a friendly advice/////

[semper fi]

You know what guys, pas7e7 is in a sort of crossroads, one part of him wants to fly big jets which is natural for young aviators and the prospect of flying baby jets for 10 years does not sit well with him, he has time on his side as of now. You will never amount to anything in the u s of a if you don't toe the line and do your time in the small leagues. You can't just jump into big jets even if you have a gazillion hours, the unions won't let you.

So 7e7, you have all the time in the world, forget the big leagues in the far east , you will waste your life there and realize you should have stayed back home. No widebody pilot ever made it to where he is now without sweating it out in the small stuff in the u s of a. think about it.

nuff said................:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[DrahNa]

Hey guys this is my very first post here so I am hoping for some positive replies:ugh: .... I'm not keeping my hopes up though....:eek:

About myself: I have about 750 total time, about 26 multi engine, and about 400 FO caravan time. I want to fly for PAL because I wanna be in those big planes. I have read a lot of the postings here and I do realize that it may be a bad move to fly for them but I just really wanna be in that big plane. I have read and stayed up late till 2 am HI std time :E just to find out whats out there....

ANyways, I may not make sense in what I am trying to say coz I've been up since this morning flying around the island but if anybody has any suggestion on how I can get myself into PAL pls let me know.

P.S I see PAL's plane here in HI once and a while and if anyone here is flying these routes maybe we can hang out and have lunch or something then talk about getting me in:ok: I fly inter-http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/icon15.gifisland .....Salamat Po

[teeepee]

Hey guys this is my very first post here so I am hoping for some positive replies:ugh: .... I'm not keeping my hopes up though....:eek:

About myself: I have about 750 total time, about 26 multi engine, and about 400 FO caravan time. I want to fly for PAL because I wanna be in those big planes. I have read a lot of the postings here and I do realize that it may be a bad move to fly for them but I just really wanna be in that big plane. I have read and stayed up late till 2 am HI std time :E just to find out whats out there....

ANyways, I may not make sense in what I am trying to say coz I've been up since this morning flying around the island but if anybody has any suggestion on how I can get myself into PAL pls let me know.

P.S I see PAL's plane here in HI once and a while and if anyone here is flying these routes maybe we can hang out and have lunch or something then talk about getting me in:ok: I fly inter-http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/icon15.gifisland .....Salamat Po////////// HEY GUY STAY WHERE YOU ARE TRY HAWAIIAN AIR OR ALOHA YOU WONT LIKE THE SALARY THOSE GUYS FLYING PAL PLANES GETS CUZ OF PESO DEVALUATION,AND IT'LL BE 1$ to 100PHP PRETTY SOON AS MR.TAN'S PREMONITION,''DIOS T AGNINA ADING''

[DrahNa]

Yea, for now while I am young and broke I think I might be able to manage the low income sitaution. I'd rather be broke now than later....plus with the current aviation situation here in the U.S if I don't try to get in with PAL and get some experience with those big planes I might end up staying broke forever.....that means for the rest of my life!!!!I guess at least if I can get in with PAL now and get that experience then maybe, hopefully that would cut down my "brokeness" in half....

I know staying here and keep on doing what I am doing might sound a lot more better than going to PAL but believe me it is NOT!

Getting a job with Aloha, Hawaiian is not that easy as well. Plus I love planes and I want to fly long routes.I am still young and I want to fly across oceans and I want to take advantage of my current feeling. I don't feel like flying planes for 20 mins T/O to touch down just yet:ugh: .......one day I might like it but like I said I wanna take advantage of my youghtness and fly across time zones.:ok:

For me with a really low time it would take me about maybe 20 years to be in a 747 if they're still be around or 737...and guess what!? when I am there I will be broke and old!----Broke+Old= a really good plan for an OLD man without PERA....I hope some of you guys get the point.....

Please give me your own honest opinion....If you were in my shoes a Dual citizen, low time pilot, wanna live in ASIA to fly,26 yrs old, wanna fly multi engine plane(planes like what PAL operates), what would you do?

I am not talking about the pay but the experience. I know the pay would be really low, way low....but I am not after the pay for now....maybe after 5 years or so....but for now I just want to fly big planes... So if you guys wanna take a good look at my current status and wanna share some of your thoughts then please don't hesistate to voice it out. Just please don't forget to take into consideration my current situation. Would some of you think that my current status and WANTS would qualify for a shot with PAL.

Thanks in advance to all that would send a reply. We all live in this aviation world and what a good feeling it is to know that the people here are experienced and knowledgeable about the situation. Maraming salamat PO!:ok: :ugh:

[tsuper]

Howdy Drahna,

If you really are interested in getting into PAL. PAL is continuously hiring pilots. I'm not sure about the minimum requirements but with your total time, I guess they'll hire you as a second officer for the B747 or A340 fleet. Your basic duties will be flying the hand microphone during cruise with no actual flying involved. You will be flying relief pilot duties for flights in exceeding 8 hours. Pay will be about $800 to $1100 per month (just a ball park figure. Not sure of real figures)

But due to numerous pilots leaving, expect a faster promotion into FO position on the A320. You can expect to move onto the A320 between 1 to 2 years. On the A320's you will be flying the planes day and night, more than you actually want to (about 85 to 100 hours a month). Then after another 3 to 4 years, you could move as a co-pilot for either the B747 or A330 and A340. If things don't change in PAL, I think you could probably make captain on the wide-body planes in 10 years.

Promotion is quite fast but expect to sign contracts and/or training agreements whenever you train for a position. Each training contract requires you to stay with PAL for five years. You will have to pay for training cost and other damages if you resign within the contract period.

Realistically, you could transfer to other airlines around asia flying right seat with just 4 years stay with PAL. But you would have to pay PAL your training costs. Pay for A320 FO in asia is about 5 times what you would get in PAL.

Teeepee is right about wide-body captain pay. It's about $3000. That's base pay plus flight play plus other allowances less 32% philippine tax.

I hope this helps. Good luck!!!!

PS. Tsuper pa rin ako ng BUS dito sa PAL!!!!!! But I hope not for long!!!!!!!

[DrahNa]

Ok, I will send in my resume within this month.... I will definitely let you know when I hear something from PAL tsuper. I don't mind flying the mic for them :ugh: ....i was a choir at church before anyways hehehehe:ugh:

Thanks a lot for the infos. I am a little bit excited now. I really would rather be flying PAL than to be flying SIC in a single angine plane. Now about that damages if i quit before the 5 years sounds scary...... I'm guessing the damages are unknown until I quit right :ugh: ......but thats fine.... 5 years should go fast.... Ok thanks a lot again tsuper.

[paolylo]

hello again guys...

i went to the PAL Learning Center yesterday to submit my resume for the Av School only to find out i need a few other things (and the pic must be red background). :O now i have an idea of what the training would be like. correct me if i'm wrong, but will the whole 14-16 months be in this manner?

classroom & sim Priv Pilot Training at Padre Faura -> flight Priv Pilot Training at Clark -> classroom & sim Comm Pilot Training at Padre Faura -> flight Comm Pilot Training at Clark -> graduation

i do hope that i can make it once there's an opening for the next Av School batch... there's no other alternative i can think of that's as good as PAL's Av School. (i heard the government's gonna close down PAF's cadetship program, sayang, that would have been my only plan B if my application at the Av School doesn't work out)

[teeepee]

Burnett,
I am definitely not one among those dwarfs you mentioned, but isnt it time to park this issue once and for all? Its been many years now, and we all knew that somehow all those who went into that dumb strike were all at fault. WE WERE ALL STUPID TO LISTEN TO THOSE DUMB LEADERS AND PUT OURSELVES IN FRONT OF THE LINE FOR SOME PEOPLES FIGHT!!!!!!!!!
And i"ve noticed, old school ka pa rin. I would say that you're still probably sticking yourself in PAL, otherwise you could have discovered already that outside PAL this thing that you said Camaraderie or brotherhood(yabang lang ito, because you want yourself to be treated as a Senior). Di na uso sa labas ang Sir, if I were you I will resign from where you are so that you will know personally what is the kind of Pleasantries you will get from the other Airlines. From where I am, position gradients doesn't exist(if you know the meaning of this), no assholing, and no imposition of Seniorities, But their is still camaraderie that exist.
And one more thing, CAPT DEL CARMEN stated on his letter through the PALpilots group that he indeed received his RETIREMENT from PAL.(Nasaan ka noon?) Happy flying to you.!

PS. enlighten us about this DODO brotherhood you're saying, aside from calling each other Brothers?(Sharing ng putok?, easy passing on the checkrides?,protections?, knowing somebody if that somebody turns out to be an ADMIN someday? tell us please....)


C1052/////// so much for these alpap fiasco i believe it's about time everybody should hear how pilots could be so stupid to blindly follow the misguided leaders circa 1970/ and 1998 (not to mention the battery of pscho/medical test that everybody deals with in order to be in pal and yet....):{

dec 1970///alpap went on strike for pay increase,improve working condition to europe,and re-instatement of two terminated avro capt.,capt.spanky nierras refused a basco flt. due wx radar was out (capt. nierras was a f27 crash survivor in lahug airport decades ago,he was one of the four survivors he was on a deadhead at the time) and capt. lito caparras charged with sexually assaulting his two f/a's in flt.(the second f/a's charged was ''assault with a dead weapon'')Mr.Toda was fuming mad on this strike and met alpap head on, pal was a mess and so with the aviation industry in P.I.,there was 285 unemployed pilots except for three who never joined the MNL BAY/BGO reclusion :E (trinidad,calimag,ortiz)after a few weeks, weakness was evident avro f/o novenario volunteered to go down to manila to talk to his ninong sen.padilla to help alpap which capt. gaston acceeded, instead went straight to gate 1 and signed in, (that made him the youngest DC8 capt. then ;) he, he) followed by juliano and louie lopez international vp then and so on.... (soti was a DC3 f/o just turned regular) a return to work was issued later finally, but was defied by alpap countering a ''mass resignation'' or ''protest resignation'' as capt.blood :\ insisted or calls it.....again mr.toda call the move and hired the filipinas guys lotilla,mapeso,justo,reyes,virata et al (umali a flt.steward then with filipinas),air manila guys balkos,eddie reyes,aguilar,villaruel,et al..caa baquiran,amurao,and some from paf..

june 1998////once again alpap went on a strike for salary adjustment,working condition etc.etc., and mainly "security of tenure"as one of the alpap director calls it,(who joined eva air during midst of the strike) due to an early retirement slapped on a330 capt.bong :\ "pitek" collantes after hitting 20 yrs.in service(normally senior pilots takes this option to join other airlines ie.SIA, but was used this time the other way around on collantes (on the insinuation of an alpap officer himself capt.edri laqui :O to atty.ocampo a pal makati lawyer in a subrosa manner on a usa flt.) ,this fellow has been an HBO or organizational behavioral problem who cannot accept a junior pilot as his chief pilot since b737 days,HE was even pulling his damn seniority to juniors grp3/4 during the strike,alpap was aware that this guy needed a stick to discipline,(as he is known 4 "pitek" for nothing),but instead tolerated him and even encouraged him to file a case against LL:p in tanauan,the whole thing went messy and big nearly 600 membership suffered,some gained, (ie.the 7 dwarfs who were more or less victims of circumstances in favor,did not have much of a choice after being told of ''last in -first out''//''your time will come'' but to act fast and went back to gate1, these guys are breadwinners too..) on june 10 sunday night return to work order was out and was served in alpap around 10pm, atty. joji antonio and so with the officers was in alpap at that time, atty antonio sporting a yellow short-short pants was also hiding and evaded the sheriff. deadline for return to work order was 12june and was extended to 14june, the order was defied by alpap for reason of no return to work received, atty. antonio tried to use the meralco union trick,the irony and even WORST is everybody marched to gate1 on june24, and SIGNED in on that DAMN log book at the guard house gate1, not knowing we all returned with an :mad: EXPIRED return to work order.....:* :* :* WHEW*#*#+*!!!!!:mad: , so C1052 was damn rt!!!... how can pilots be so stupid on a least situation... this applies to even more senior-senior pilots circa 1970, they did theirs in a greater magnitude of stupidity as wll reckon..... i certainly hope this will be enough to enlighten distortion of facts to some on how the leadership was handled and it even happened during capt.gaston's era......well, lets just all pray for a good health and be prudent next time if ever..god bless all pinoy pilots in every corner of this cruel world.....MABUHAY:D

[kontra]

Drah Na

All the best for you. If you dont mind the very low pay as you mentioned, then go for it. But you must have a very strong stomach to work for Johnny A & Julie H. They will treat you as if they own you.

Paolylo,

You got the flow right. If I remember correctly, you are a son of a former PAL pilot? Prepare for the worst. I heard that there was a son of a former PAL pilot who applied ang got accepted in PAL AVSCH for the recently started batch. Guess waht happened? On the last minute, he was informed that PAL would not take him in. As in last minute, he was supposed to start 8AM the next day and they called him the night before to tell him the bad news. Maybe to start a rift between father & son.

[kontra]

///// yup damn rt.kangaroo court for everybody in gate1 they will throw you the "book", an expired CBA,gate1 law,or whatever they will think off para ''BUENA CARA"sa makati/// JH,JA,LL retires??? well if things will come out as planned as this new"CP"says things will be entirely different in gate1(not to mention that JH,JA,LL nursing a ''ticker problem'') matter of time ika nga ng matatanda...this new"CP" is the man to watch he goes to makati in the morning drinking if in MNL often, giving wrong lopsided info's,having coffee, rubbing elbows with executives and LT,the irony is they believe him!!! nagmamadali ang pobre for the VP position he he he (neighbor airline president :p :p :p knows) LL will not in any slightest chance get to any higher position as off today, this ''CP''has been shooting him down from day one after june 8,1998 and he just gained feathers on his cap as far as LT is concerned,for what reason ???,we don't know....aassh sa gate1 as ,they say in pampanga....

So, who do you think is better? LL or EG/BG? Well, it is a known fact that JA & JH is desperately trying to keep their positions for as long as they can. They have to, both of them are living like they are as rich as LT. JA's son is a drug addict in LA. Which means he still needs to support him over there. JH's son doesnt have a direction in life, therefore the same goes for him. Too much family pressure for them that they cannot handle it and releases all the steam on us pilots. It may sound bad, but I hope that their tickers stops.

Can any of you forward this thread to them? So that they can air their bad side here? Also to make their blood boil and over load their tickers

[teeepee]

So, who do you think is better? LL or EG/BG? Well, it is a known fact that JA & JH is desperately trying to keep their positions for as long as they can. They have to, both of them are living like they are as rich as LT. JA's son is a drug addict in LA. Which means he still needs to support him over there. JH's son doesnt have a direction in life, therefore the same goes for him. Too much family pressure for them that they cannot handle it and releases all the steam on us pilots. It may sound bad, but I hope that their tickers stops.

Can any of you forward this thread to them? So that they can air their bad side here? Also to make their blood boil and over load their tickers////MATTER OF TIME FOR THESE GUYS, WE'VE SEEN THIS SCENARIO BEFORE, REMEMBER LIFE IS A CYCLE ITSELF ''WHAT GOES AROUND WILL **** AROUND''THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY DEARLY FOR THE MISDEEDS, SA NGAYON BG IS WAY AHEAD NAGPAPA HINOG LANG ANG KUMAG:hmm: ..BUT IF LT/JIM BOTE WILL OPEN THEIR EYES WIDE OPEN NOW THE BEST BET IS CHUCK AQUINO, YOUNG,FAIR,HONEST AND GOD FEARING....:ok: :ok: :ok:

[DrahNa]

:ugh: If anybody here knows much about how PAL is doing right now please keep "us", "youths that wanna fly big planes with low time", informed.

Is there any contract to sign if hired by PAL? If anybody can shed any info about this please.

I've been talking to my fellow pilots here and some suggests to apply with PAL but some doesn't agree with the signing of a contract. Some agree with my view point of flying SO for a few years then upgrade to FO instead of flying regional here in the US. Are SO for PAL getting at least $1500? Coz I think that's how much I'll be making incase I get a regional flying job here.

I am leaning towards applying but is there even a chance for me? How hard is it to get a job with PAL?

Well, thanks a lot for any info that you guys can share. :ugh:

[kontra]

////MATTER OF TIME FOR THESE GUYS, WE'VE SEEN THIS SCENARIO BEFORE, REMEMBER LIFE IS A CYCLE ITSELF ''WHAT GOES AROUND WILL **** AROUND''THEY WILL HAVE TO PAY DEARLY FOR THE MISDEEDS, SA NGAYON BG IS WAY AHEAD NAGPAPA HINOG LANG ANG KUMAG:hmm: ..BUT IF LT/JIM BOTE WILL OPEN THEIR EYES WIDE OPEN NOW THE BEST BET IS CHUCK AQUINO, YOUNG,FAIR,HONEST AND GOD FEARING....:ok: :ok: :ok:

FC is the best management fo far there is. It could have been EG Diaz, but he was "forced" to resign from management because of his pro-pilot policies. FC might have a hard time because he is not like the others who s*uck a$$ to be in position.

[kontra]

:ugh: If anybody here knows much about how PAL is doing right now please keep "us", "youths that wanna fly big planes with low time", informed.
Is there any contract to sign if hired by PAL? If anybody can shed any info about this please.
I've been talking to my fellow pilots here and some suggests to apply with PAL but some doesn't agree with the signing of a contract. Some agree with my view point of flying SO for a few years then upgrade to FO instead of flying regional here in the US. Are SO for PAL getting at least $1500? Coz I think that's how much I'll be making incase I get a regional flying job here.
I am leaning towards applying but is there even a chance for me? How hard is it to get a job with PAL?
Well, thanks a lot for any info that you guys can share. :ugh:

When I was in PAL about a year ago, the SO pay is not even US$1000!!!!.

The training contracts are for 5 years with a bloated cost. Every training you must sign a contract. They also have a policy now that you must give them MINIMUM of 180 days notice of resignation. With in that period they will not renew you license anymore. If you have ATPL, that's it. It will be expired by the time the 180 days are over.

If you are planning to stay with PAL for the rating and the flying hours, its good enough. Provided they change management. Or be like some of those who dont give a ***** on how they are treated.