REASONS TO STAY IN

[Phoney Tony]

I often create a mental list of reasons why I stay in the military and balance that against reasons why I would leave:

For:

I work with great people who work hard, play hard and in the main do so without real complaint, because they believe what they are being asked to do is right.

Against:

Poor leadership. Why is it our senior management cannot face up to the Treasury and explain to them that cutting the armed forces is wrong?

Do we really need an operation to go wrong, possibly with great loss of life before, anyone will listen.

Smart Acquisition is not working. It is sinking back into the bad old days, why, because the Whitehall Mandarins are making it more and more bureaucratic. Result….late, over budget, poor performing capabilities.

Wasted money……2 Aircraft Carriers…….Typhoon.

We have gone far too far in becoming PC correct.

To much change, for change sake.

Uncertainty, when I joined we had excellent Medical Care and terms and conditions which did not change every year or so.

Time to think, decisions being made by leadership now are clearly not thought through.

I could go on.

The writing has been on the wall for a long time and the whispers have now progressed to an audible murmur. We are over committed, with no sign of an exit strategy.

Please do not make this a thread, which slags off my personal issues. I would rather see what is keeping you in.

[Prop-Ed]

I totally agree with you mate.
What's keeping me in? Free ATPL when I finally get the required hours :ok:
Once that's in the bank, you wont see me for dust!.............

[jumpseater]

I'm not in and never have been. I will put this in civvy street terms, but you should be able to easily see the analogies. From my civvy experience in broad terms I would say that if you have to think about why you should stay, you're probably better off out of your curent position, as you've already passed the i's it time to leave yet?' Only you will know if a different position in your employer is likely to give satisfaction. If you're upset with the direction the managers are taking you in, then again an internal transfer is unlikely to work/be satisfying and again, look for the white sign with the green writing starting with E

[gashman]

For me, every now and then I fly a trip which just puts a huge grin on my face. A tough tasking perhaps, which through a can do attitude, we (the squadron) make happen, as planned. That takes practice and a fair bit of time and effort. If we recognise when things have gone well, and celebrate it, we don't end up in a spiral of doom.

Fair play, it isn't what it used to be in the forces, but I can't think of a job which would offer such variety. Who wants to join the rat race? Not me, I'd rather be nightflying in a COMAO or sat over the Gulf than sat on the train (or in my car) at the same time every day, looking at the same people, going to the same office, knowing that I'll be doing the same thing today than I did yesterday. I've done that for a course over 6 months, and it depressed the hellout of me, especially when the guys flew over the top of the train station while I waited for the same train.

I've been VERY fortunate though and ended up doing pretty much exactly what I wanted to do in the RAF so far. I guess this offsets the crap!

GM

ps, even though they've been a long time coming, we need the new kit to do our job, why not be optimistic about the projects and recognise the improved capability they will deliver?:ok:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

1) Applied for redundancy in 1995 - didn't get it
2) Applied for redundancy in 1996 - didn't get it
3) Appealed against my non-redundancy in 1996 - didn't get it
Got promoted!
4) Applied for redundancy Tr 1 in 2005 - didn't get it
5) Applied for redundancy Tr 2 in 2005 - didn't get it
Got promoted!
It's a dangerous game to play, but it worked for me.
Dare I apply for Tr 3?
No, not this time.

[SirToppamHat]

Boarding School Allowance!

STH

[charliegolf]

1 life isn't easier outside- only different
2 no flying is better than militay- that's what you wanted
3 the pay and conditions are good

[Wyler]

Not knowing what is going to happen tomorrow.
Yesterday was different from today.
Subsidised housing (few overheads).
Free medical and dental.
Like minded people at the tactical level.
Job Security.
If you go somewhere, you will be met & looked after.
Good social life.
When you are in the sand, infrastructure to look after the family.
Good pension.

Don't get me wrong, things could be a whole lot better and I share the contempt for the higher echelons BUT it is not all gloom and doom.

[Ginger Beer]

Wyler,

your not serving in the same air farce as me :}

[Lockstock]

So why stay in then? :confused:

[Wyler]

Ditto. If you that unhappy, leave.

[C130 Techie]

Totally agree with the original post by Phoney Tony.
For me the reasons are:
1. Job satisfaction - There is still a challenge.
2. Every day is different.
3. The money isn't bad.
4. Job security for the next 10 years if I want it.
5. I work with some great people and get to travel a bit as well.
There are a couple of negatives at the moment:
1. I living in the mess during the week as I am based away from home. The facilities and the food are poor.
2. There is too much change going on all at once.
On the whole though I am still happy with my lot after almost 28 years.

[peoplespoet]

really good reason's to stay:

Great job with lots of job satisfaction - Not
Good planning and man management - Not
Anticipation of up and coming events or tours - Not
Adventure training to look forward to - Not
Realistic and professional routine training - Not
Low flying - Not
Night flying - not when an RAF aircraft is anywhere in the LFA
Good pay...relatively speaking but in comparison to outside - Not
Support during times of need - Not
Good mess life - your having a ***ing laugh with with PAYD
Quality of life - only if have no life style to start with
Equality - only if your name is "Ting Tong"
Sound career advice and guidance - Not
good pension - once over now....Errrr.... NOT
Security - Not at present
A rest - not this decade
RESPOD increase for young poorly paid soldiers (other ranks) during high fuel prices.....Not
Family care or assistance - Not anymore (NHS for them I'm afraid)
Respect from the hierarchy - I give up now

Yeh... I'm happy with my lot too! NOT

Oh and yes I'm also leaving to join the Civi airlines, thanks.
:ok:

PP

[tablet_eraser]

My reasons:

1. Decent pay compared with friends who went through University;
2. Excellent accommodation and good food;
3. Cheap beer;
4. I live and work with some of my best friends;
5. If I leave, I'll be obliged to spend time with my parents :mad:

Everyone's reasons are personal. Why not make your own mind up without referring to strangers?

Whatever your decision, best of luck :ok:

[The Rocket]

So why stay in then?

Ditto. If you that unhappy, leave.


Fantastic points guys:hmm:

Perhaps it's escaped your attention that an awful lot of people ARE actually leaving.

Are you going to keep burying your head in the sand as to how bad things are getting nowadays, until the day there are only the two of you left, sat in the mess one day, daring each other to leave?:rolleyes:

[Wyler]

Even more people are staying, that may have escaped your notice. Even more people are joining. As has been said, personal choice. Unhappy, then leave. It is a very sad fact of life that neither you or I will be miised or mourned when we go. The very next day it will be like you/I/we never existed. Don't expect a bed of roses on the outside either.

[The Rocket]

That's not the point I'm making Wyler.

I whole heartedly agree that nothing you or I have to say on this matter will change anything, and nobody would complain in the slightest if we left.

However, the fact is that more people are leaving now than in any other time recently. We are expected to put up with more and more cr4p, and have all the benefits we once enjoyed, being slowly and spitefully, in my opinion, taken away from us.

To say that "If you do not like it, leave" is a terrible and blinkered view on the situation, and is a phrase that the beancounters rely on spineless individuals to trot out, every time we are cut back that little bit further. They know full well that many people are not in a situation where they are fully able to just up and leave, as much as they would like to do so.

I personally joined with an intention to serve for as long as I possibly could, being very career minded, but now I start to find myself thinking that this RAF is really not my cup of tea anymore.

Are you personally content and happy with the way things have changed since you swore your allegience all those years ago?

Personally, I like many others on this forum, am finding that the list of Pro's is by far and away outnumbered by the list of Cons nowadays.

[zedder]

Phoney Tony,
I think you need to take a look at a lot of British Industry and remember just how many of your 'againsts' apply in the 'real' world. I know several friends with good degrees who are on their 3rd or 4th companies due to redundancy, down-sizing (producing ridiculous working hour expectations for senior management), re-organization (producing gutless leadership and wasting money) etc etc. As many others have said on various threads, the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side.

Not sure why you have Medical Care as an against. I've always found the Health and Dental care very good. Yes it it maybe not as good as it was, but again, take a look outside. Things are far from rosy out there.

Personally, while the RAF of today is a far different beast than the one I joined in the 80s, it is still a secure job with a very good pension scheme. Admittedly, in a lot of ways, what used to be the Fun-Factor has with been replaced with another Factor starting with F, and I have real problem with the flavour-of-the-month "Warfighter first, Specialist second" mantra. Overall though, for now I'll stick with it.

[Lockstock]

I personally joined with an intention to serve for as long as I possibly could, being very career minded, but now I start to find myself thinking that this RAF is really not my cup of tea anymore.


Ahh, dry your eyes Princess, pick up the phone tomorrow morning and tell your desk officer that.

[dessert_flyer]

To stay
1. i love flying
2. pay is good
3. BSA
4. Good social home and down route
5. Lots of goog guys(and gals) who u work alongside

To Go
1. I hate the bulls**t admin that goes with the job
2. Non existant Promotion (NCA)
3. Constant change, (dont even know what im doing tomorrow)
4. Being commanded by people only interested in their own careers and not for the good of the Sqn, (yes i do believe that Sqn ethos should exist)
5. The tail wagging the dog
6. Very poor quality of family life, (and the black mark against you if you put your familly first)
7. JPA

Lots to think about

[The Rocket]

Yeah, cheers for that Lockstock. You're completely right. My apologies.


You complete chiseller.

[Two's in]

If you are currently that cynical/cheesed off/myopic/bitter you probably won't see this, but the true irony is that it is only when you leave and become a stinking civilian do you fully realise what truly professional organisations Betty Windsor's flying clubs are. Light Blue, Dark Blue or Green, it's a totally professional job done very well by total professionals - you just don't always appreciate it while you are still serving. Be proud of it while you can.

[Biggus]

I know PT asked people not to '..slag off...' his personal issues, but I would make the one following comment. In his reasons 'For' staying he said '......because they believe what they are being asked to do is right.'

Without going into a great political debate, and re-opening arguements already made on other threads I believe this is not necessarily the case any more. I beleive that many people in the military, at least at a junior level, were/are very uneasy with the background to the war against Iraq. They joined the armed services to defend their country, and preserve it's way of life, not invade other countries and impose a way of life on their occupants. Nevertheless, being the professionals that we are, we got on with the job, and did it to the best of our ability. However, it implanted in many a lack of faith in our leaders, both political and military, that has not gone away, and caused a re-think of our reasons for serving (the realisation that it is now just another job perhaps?). The subtle impact of this on some should not be overlooked in my opinion.

Those within the military fortunate enough not to have taken part in the (second!) war against Iraq, or to have served their since, may not be best placed to appreciate the validity of my comments.

[D-IFF_ident]

1. Took FRI 1; can't afford to leave.

2. There is no number 2.

[Blodwyn Pig]

to be honest, a lot of the gripes mentioned here are the same gripes that people weren't happy with 16 years ago when i left.

having said that, when i now go back to RAF camps with my job and see people i used to be in with, just about all of them aren't happy, and even the younger lads in the crewroom seem to have an air of despondancy (i don't know if this has rubbed off from longer serving collegues). yes, they have a laugh and get on with the job, but in the background there is a definate 'pissed off' mood hanging in the air.

the australian air force let people leave for up to 18 months, if they like life on the outside, they can stay out, if its not the bed of roses they thought, they can go back in. perhaps something similar with our forces would let people get a taste of life outside, without the need to make it permanent.

[Lockstock]

Rocket

Well done, you,ve just proved that by resorting to call people childish names you probably don't have the balls to take control of your life and do what you really want.

Whatever, I'm happy and you are obviously not and that really is your problem. :{

[Wyler]

Fair points. I joined in 1979 and, yes, things have changed beyond recognition and not always for the better. There is very little worth in being an Officer these days and I think it will be diminished further by the current powers. I have always despaired of the phrase that we need different leaders in peacetime than we do in war. Consequently, we see a load of amateur politicians climbing up the greasy pole because they can write, bulls*it and slope shoulders.
However, I think the myth that the grass is greener on the outside is just that, a myth. I worked in industry before joining and I have close family in the manufacturing industry, what's left of it! They don't know if they will have a job next week, never mind next year. Their pensions are crap and if you go sick, you don't get paid after a very short period of time.
I still think there is a lot of good and I bang my drum every so often. Has about as much effect as a sardine fart in mid atlantic but makes me feel better. I would rather stay and try to make it a little better at the worker bee level. Still some great people around and I still enjoy the job, even after all these years and with all the 'extras' of today. However, it is now, more than ever, a job as opposed to a way of life.

[Testingtheseatlimit]

I agree with an awful lot of the knockers out there in this thread. Cleverly, I have been trapped by a certain set of circumstances/allowances at a time that I could ill afford to ignore them; but before you ostriches jump on me from a great height, you'd be right to point out that I made the choices in the first place.... so tough. Biggest Gripe: Senior Officers spouting the "If you don't like it leave" line. As if we all, of course, have no right to even debate this situation or try to stem the tide of change, just a little. I guess that's the reality of the situation, and it would probably be the same outside too! However, like alot of you, as soon as I get a realistic opportunity, I'm off, and from my perspective, after all these years, it makes me quite sad to say that!

[tonkatechie]

the australian air force let people leave for up to 18 months, if they like life on the outside, they can stay out, if its not the bed of roses they thought, they can go back in. perhaps something similar with our forces would let people get a taste of life outside, without the need to make it permanent.
I think you can do that in the RAF - check QR's, it says something about a 'Career Break' of up to 2 years (or thereabouts) which is obviously unpaid and doesn't count towards total time served. Of course, you have to justify why you want it, and I imagine it won't do a world of good if you decide to return and chase that next promotion either...
For myself, I often feel a bit despondant about the whole raf-life, but I haven't got a clue as to what work I would either like to do, get paid the same amount for with my qualifications, or could find in somewhere I'd like to live. Basically, it's better than the civvy job I used to have, and I'd rather live in a quarter at the end of the runway than do that b:mad:y commute on the train into London again! Having a winge and moan and threatening to jack it all in is a good way of getting rid of the stress - it's a way of reminding yourself that you do, afterall, have the final say about what you do for cash.

[TWOL8]

Personally, I like many others on this forum, am finding that the list of Pro's is by far and away outnumbered by the list of Cons nowadays

If this really is the case what is keeping you in??
Perhaps you should spend less time moaning on forums such as this and more time establishing what type of jobs are on offer that do present you more pros than cons. :{ :{ :{

[sarmonkey]

Ahh, dry your eyes Princess, pick up the phone tomorrow morning and tell your desk officer that.
Well done, you,ve just proved that by resorting to call people childish names you probably don't have the balls to take control of your life and do what you really want.:{
Not the best logic in the world, old boy.... Unless you're not really that happy, but don't have the balls to leave, that is.

[Phoney Tony]

Thanks chaps,

Picked up on a few reasons I had forgotten that makes thing all worthwhile.

Then I went to work today to receive a note from what we used to call Admin Wg stating that:

In respect of a member of my team who is long term sick I should remember that my line management responsibilities still apply during time of extended absence from place of work........

A bit insulting to suggest that I would just give up on someone who is unfortunately ill[I]

It goes on to say.....


I should contact the individual once may be twice a month to see how things are going......but more than this could be deemed as harassment!!!!

[covec]

Stay in:

1. Good mates.
2. (Generally) good "coal face" bosses ie same boat n all that.
3. PAS plus AFPS 2005 ie pensionable Flying Pay!
4. Proud (yes, honestly!) to be part of the UK Armed Forces ie not civvy.
5. Medical & dental care.
6. ELCs / SLCs.
7. Socialising - at home or abroad, dry or wet - with said mates.

Get out:

1. Inability of seniors to say "NO" to more n more tasking / mission creep.
2. PC Police (same in civvy street I know).
3. Having to take orders from politicians: rather it was HM!
4. Inputs to Service life from Civil Serpents.

:)

[The Rocket]

Perhaps you should spend less time moaning on forums such as this and more time establishing what type of jobs are on offer that do present you more pros than cons.

Again, thank you for that superb advice:yuk:


This thread seems to be splitting in two very seperate directions.

1. Those continually spouting "If you don't like it, leave" every time a somebody mentions the fact that many aspects of today's RAF/RN/Army are blatently cr4p

2. Those who are not too blinkered to see that things are far from ideal, and aren't too afraid mention the fact

To say that because I feel that we are at the top of a slippery slope at the minute, and that it is a shame we seem to be leaving behind many of the positive aspects of being an Officer in the Armed Forces, I am some sort of weak willed cry baby who remains in the RAF because I have reached my ceiling is absolutely ridiculous. I still enjoy my JOB on a day to day basis, and I am lucky to work with a fantastic bunch of blokes, however, as I have said before, I do feel that the list of Cons is growing increasingly larger, and as soon as I feel that there really is nothing worth staying for, I will leave, not before.

I always try to find the good in whatever situation I find myself in, and in this instance, I find myself extremely glad I don't work with TWOL8 and Lockstock:ok:

[charliegolf]

Rocket

The way the responses have emerged was always going to be thus.

But it is about choices in the end. Civilian life is not for everyone, and vice versa.


Some will stay for dosh, some will stay for buzz, and some because they have nothing to offer outside. (There's not an ATPL and job for everyone)

My sympathies are for those who are not happy, but still stay. That's sad, in my view.

CG

[TWOL8]

To say that because I feel that we are at the top of a slippery slope at the minute, and that it is a shame we seem to be leaving behind many of the positive aspects of being an Officer in the Armed Forces, I am some sort of weak willed cry baby who remains in the RAF because I have reached my ceiling is absolutely ridiculous. :ok:

ROCKET,

I don't think anyone suggested that you had reached your ceiling , maybe its your subconscious talking - might explain the fact that "this Air Force really isn't your cup of tea"

:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

[Lockstock]

My sympathies are for those who are not happy, but still stay. That's sad, in my view.
CG

It is a fair point. Whether you agree or not, for some the pros still outweigh the cons - they still find that the quality of flying, social life, top bunch of mates, expeds or whatever are good reasons to stay in. Sure it's not perfect and poor leadership, erosion of perks, etc may tip the balance for others. Just remember that the RAF does not have the monopoly on those factors - check out any thread on Ryanair for example.

If you find that it is 'no longer my cup of tea' then you have a choice - stay and be unhappy, or leave.

And Rocket, the feeling is mutual - I'm fcucking glad I don't work with you. You wouldn't last 5 mins on my sqn. :ok:

[Blacksheep]

With the clarity of hindsight, leaving when I did was probably a mistake. Still, I made the best of it and no regrets - but its interesting to see that most of the "againsts" given above would tally with my own at that time.

Take care now...

[N Joe]

What a bunch of old women! There's the quote about doing your best to change what you can and having the grace to accept what you can't (or something approaching that - if I had done English I'd be an Adminer). If you don't like what's going on either knuckle down and get it changed or leave.
N Joe

[PileUp Officer]

I wrote these on a long train journey immediately after leaving the mob. They are spilt into current (Ie jobless) and future (In my new job)

Current

For:
No more dunker/dingy drills/CCS/Fitness tests etc.
No trips to the desert
Clearer conscience
More location stability
No more secondary duties/ISS/morning briefs/duty bod etc.
No more being institutionalised
More freedom (In terms of appearance/travel etc.)
More girls
More fixed working day (Ie. Not 24/7)

Against:
Lack of money
Lack of military mates/camaraderie
No mess bar or functions
No job prestige
Not living on base (Mess, free gym, short commutes, having to live with parents)
No uniform to wear to weddings
No free dentistry/healthcare
No cheap AT/equipment hire.

Future

For:
More money
Flying to safer and more interesting places
Good job prestige
Cheap flights
Good working pattern
Ability to tell employers where to go.

Against:
Debt (Worries about med cat etc)
High living costs
Possible long commutes
Possible long shift patterns


I think I decided I was better off out. Some of them look a little weird or unimportant but different people value different things.

[Time Flies]

You couldn't have been in the mob long?

Weren't you recently at Shawbs?

What is your next venture?

[peoplespoet]

Once again that favorite saying 'if you don't like it go' is spouted from undoubtedly someone that hasn't got many options other than to stay anyway. The reality is that because of that hideous attitude not only toward aircrew but toward all other ranks; they are leaving.

It will only be a matter of time before the only people left serving will either be new at the game and know no better or have nothing to offer civi street and therefore are stuck in a job that actually they hate but remain in denial. I don't like it anymore no loyalty from the top, everything is short cut and frankly its no longer the fun it was. So I have taken the bosses very wise and carefully chosen words of advice and as a result of his fantastic man management skills he now has my PVR, thankfully I have a job to go to and whilst the grass may not be greener out side, I am sure it will be better looked after and maintained.

I would only have one reason to stay in and that would be that we start to do our job properly i.e. correctly funded and manned.

I heard a rumor that ASDA and TESCO are going to form a PFI and buy the MOD then sell the military product the British Forces offer to other nations. Then invest the financial profit(NATO pay paid to them not the troops) into quality housing and medical care for illegal immigrants; a bit like the labour party but only overtly!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

I am currently in the strange position of working for both the RAF and a large british airline:confused: (currently working through terminal leave)

Here are some of my musings:

Push Factors:
-Lack of stability with a young family
-Too many dets with too little support
-The Basrah SWO & JHF RSM (To***r!)
-No certain long term future(not offered PC, PA not offered until final year)
-Starting to get bitter, and I no longer respect the command chain.
-RAF refusing to sign up to Tax Free Childcare scheme
-My family scared of me being in danger
-Threat matrices adjused to fit need, not threat.
-All the good guys have gone/are going.

Pull Factors:
-Shiny new ATPL
-Airlines recruiting hard, uncertainty of recruiting in the next few years.
-£13000 pay rise initially (getting even better)
-Sustainable long term career with options.
-Being able to plan social events

What I will miss:
-Sqn/mess culture
-Operational flying
-Captaincy for at least 12 years


Overall, It was definitely time to go, so I PVR'd. The DO and Sqn were fantastic and fitted to my timescale. I was open with them, and they did what they could to help. I feel no lack of loyalty, as I actually had an option due about now anyway, and PVR is a contractual right.

P.S. any of the guys who want interview prep material PM me

P-T-G