View Full Version : EFPS Idol curiosity.
monoenduro
11th Feb 2006, 11:20
Is this system any use. Do you think it is better than paper.
foghorn
11th Feb 2006, 14:44
Stansted and Gatwick Towers do in the UK, with other certain NATS towers gradually shifting over in the future.
I'm not joking sir
13th Feb 2006, 11:22
EFPS Idol.
Pop Idol for ATC. Wonder what you'd win.:p
Gonzo
13th Feb 2006, 20:55
How long have you got?
vespasia
14th Feb 2006, 13:44
Takes a bit of getting use to, and increases head down time for first couple of weeks but there's no way I'd go back to paper now. It's not a perfect system ( neither was paper strips ) but once you're used to it it's quicker and workload is lower.:ok:
nodelay
14th Feb 2006, 19:22
It sure does take some getting used to, which is why we had a thorough training course and then a period of time after it was up and running, upto six weeks I guess, when there was no requirement to train others. ATCO's started training again when they felt comfortable. There was even the opportunity to revisit the sims post 'O' date if anyone felt they needed more training. We were included as much as possible throughout the development of EFPS and our views were sought whenever possible. The transition may have been difficult for some, but I think most of us that use EFPS would not go back to using paper strips.
GONZO, you sound sceptical. I'd be interested to know what your experience of operational EFPS is. After all, I would have thought if other units are able to make it work and other ATCO's have the ability to retrain and adapt their skills, then you and your unit could as well??
It sure does take some getting used to, which is why we had a thorough training course and then a period of time after it was up and running, upto six weeks I guess, when there was no requirement to train others. ATCO's started training again when they felt comfortable. There was even the opportunity to revisit the sims post 'O' date if anyone felt they needed more training. We were included as much as possible throughout the development of EFPS and our views were sought whenever possible. The transition may have been difficult for some, but I think most of us that use EFPS would not go back to using paper strips.
GONZO, you sound sceptical. I'd be interested to know what your experience of operational EFPS is. After all, I would have thought if other units are able to make it work and other ATCO's have the ability to retrain and adapt their skills, then you and your unit could as well??
Whilst NO controller at LHR has used it operationally there are still concerns that the additional runway has casued many bugs in the EFPS software. It is wholly unfiar to expect SS, KK and LL to work exactly the same way using EFPS. They never did with paper strips so why should they with EFPS?
Gonzo
14th Feb 2006, 19:44
I've seen it in action at EGSS, and I'm on the Heathrow EFPS working group, and I'm one of the instructors delivering EFPS training to the rest of the unit.
After all, I would have thought if other units are able to make it work and other ATCO's have the ability to retrain and adapt their skills, then you and your unit could as well??
To be honest, that's one of the main problems we've come up against. The idea that 'it works at KK/SS, so it must be ok at LL'. We are completely separate and different units, with different operations and needs.
At SS and KK, a runway crosser has to go back to the same frequency from whence it came. There is no choice. At LL, a runway crosser might go back to one of four. Those in charge of the project high up in NATS don't appreciate the differences in the units.
Another issue we had recently was how we handled multiple switches from one runway to another in the event of losing the landing runway. We've solved it now, but one very serious suggestion was that we should just abolish switches; send them all round! :rolleyes:
Yes, we can make it work, but I believe our capacity will be reduced from present levels, let alone mixed mode and 3rd runway.
vespasia
15th Feb 2006, 07:22
Gonzo, all points taken. Yes, EFPS will reduce your capacity for a short time post introduction, but experience shows this is a very short period and with careful planning ( flow etc. ) can be managed. Don't see how mixed mode operations will cause you too much of a problem since SS and KK manage with no problems in exactly such a mode ( in the case of KK at a similar traffic level per runway. ) The point about different freqs for vehicles and crossers is perfectly valid, but there are solutions and if workload increases in this area, it is vastly reduced in others. There are losses and gains, but the overall reduction in workload is significant in my experience. As for GT3s comments about the system not being designed for more than one runway, let's not forget where it came from. I know the traffic levels are different but the Canadians seem to manage with just as high a level of complexity as at LL at their EFPS equipped airports.
I know it all seems very traumatic for LL now ( been there! ) but as at KK and SS a year after introduction you won't want to go back to paper:D
Don't see how mixed mode operations will cause you too much of a problem since SS and KK manage with no problems in exactly such a mode ( in the case of KK at a similar traffic level per runway. )
But that is the point we are trying to make to people. Everyone says "oh its fine KK SS manage single runway all day", yeah we know they do and we have NO problems with mixed-mode ops. The problem is ground capacity. It is a struggle when they are landing on just one runway, on both things will get very congested very quickly and EFPS will not be able to solve this at all.
vespasia
15th Feb 2006, 13:28
GT3,
EFPS will not "solve" ground capacity problems because that's not it's job. KK has major ground capacity issues as well and all I can reiterate is that, because EFPS has reduced my workload compared to paper strips, I have more time, not less, to concentrate on the job in hand and more time, not less, to plan, resolve conflicts and do all those day to day things that make up GMC.
The fears about loss of heads up time are overplayed - for the first few days your heads up time is reduced, but once you get used to the system ( and it happens quicker than you'd think at first ) heads up time is increased because strip management is much more efficient with EFPS.
I can understand the scepticism with which the system is viewed by LL ( we all had it to one degree or another ) but the fact is it works and it works better than paper. Let's not let the issue get clouded by the " most complex unit " issue, because it's a smokescreen. I sincerely hope and believe that you'll be a convert after using EFPS for 6 months!:)
Not a most complex unit thread at all. Simply saying that those above who think that the system will work at LL because it does elsewhere are sadly mistaken. Also the fact that the system still has bugs is not really acceptable. The training dept at LL are doing their best to resolve this but can you really train on a system that is likely to change during the run up to O Date of the NVCR?
Whilst I appreciate that personal workload will possibly reduce at LHR stripbay congestion is a real issue. EFPS and its scrolling windows will add to that problem surely? Flow control will not have an effect on this. Regularly GMC2 has more than a bay of strips due to aircraft unable to park. Holding back startups does not help the situation as more often than not the next landers are waiting for gates which are occupied. EFPS cannot solve these issues we have and managers (not GM or MATC) saying that EFPS will make the operation more effiecient are in cloud cuckoo land!
nodelay
15th Feb 2006, 14:49
GT3, there, are those at KK and SS who also thought it would not work, but here we are almost a year later, after our busiest summer ever, and it's worked. Even our most sceptical ATCO's are now happily using it. The training threw up many problems with the system, as I expect yours is. What is essential information to have on the FDE's? How do we display/represent conditional clearances? And what is just a 'nice to have', etc. etc. These issues are all part of the development of the system and get addressed and ironed out the more people use the system and feedback potential problems/suggestions to the people developing the software via you OPS dept.
ATCO's, I have found, are amongst the worst for accepting change. But if the system is in place elsewhere, and is succesful elsewhere at units which include some of the busiest in the world, and as a result has been proved, then providing you have a good communication line, which can react to the positive and negative feedback then I hope you will find, depsite your scepticism, that EFPS will work.
Gonzo
15th Feb 2006, 15:46
Please feel free to correct me, but strip display and movement in Canada in an aerodrome context are completely different to ours. AFAIK they do not have a 'runway bay' as we know it. Comparison therefore to Canada is completely superfluous, as is comnparison between SS, KK and LL.
As GT3 says, the issue with mixed mode with regard to EFPS is not the single runway aspect. I love doing single runway, and once you get into it it's pretty straightforward. The issue is the number of strips one can have on the screen. We have not yet got stuck into simulated training, as our 3D sim isn't ready yet, but already in our 'following through taped R/T' exercises I've run out of room in the three taxi bays we have. Space on the screen will be a real issue with GMC in our normal ops, let alone mixed mode. This is what people are worried about.
As I was saying, it has not been proven that EFPS can handle LL's present traffic, let alone future developments. Whatever opinion one has of us 'Heathrow prima donnas', that is not the correct way to do things.
nodelay
15th Feb 2006, 15:50
Who said anything about 'Heathrow Prima Donnas'?
Gonzo
15th Feb 2006, 16:02
Nobody on this thread, but it usually comes up when EFPS is discussed between the airports, unfortunately.
nodelay
15th Feb 2006, 16:16
GONZO, I can see your point about the number of FDE's in the bay. If I find myself in a situation where I am running ot of 'bay space,' I tend to minimise the FDE and then expand them again if I need additional info that would not be displayed in the minimised mode. Our EFPS GMC configuration is such that we have a 'spare bay,' which is useful either for ground vehicles or as a spill over for a/c.
I'm sure you guys know all this anyway. Good luck!!!
Gonzo
15th Feb 2006, 16:20
Oh for a spare bay! Of course, if people had thought about it, we'd have 30in screens with plenty of space!:rolleyes:
monoenduro
24th Feb 2006, 21:28
I take it that your all happy with the EFPS system and the future is utopian.:hmm:
Training was delayed so no comments for a few weeks I would guess....