Perth Fog

[Mud Skipper]

Just what we need - more induced fog right at one of our more isolated airports.
Will the airport owners pick up the bill for diversions caused by their greed if the proposal for a new brickworks on a 32ha site at the northern tip of Perth Airport is allowed to go ahead?

The older brickworks is known to have caused major problems in the past, it's hard to believe they can think this an appropriate use of airport land.:mad:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18104821%255E23349,00.html

[Mr.Buzzy]

Miles and miles of barren, boring, dead, sandy wasteland and where do they want to build a brickworks?

F*&k 'em, they can catch the train!

bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[rack 'n stack]

They also forgot to check whether or not the proposed brick works would interfere with any of the TX/RX sites, VOR/DME and 21 ILS! Ah commercial cost recovery, dont you love it!

[PLovett]

Don't have the article to hand just now but I recall it mentioned the brick works was to have a 51m chimney.:ugh:

What do the owners think they are doing? Supposedly the thing will not encroach on aircraft operations but not all aircraft stay within the expected flight boundaries.

I recall an incident many years ago when an Ansett 727 totally botched up a visual approach to 30 Hobart. He overshot the centreline substantially and then calmly announced he was going around - straight through the circuit area at Cambridge which at the time had 3 or 4 aircraft doing circuits. The tower had kittens and screamed for all aircraft in the circuit to descend. The 727 sailed majestically just above some very suprised pilots that day.:uhoh:

The article is well worth a read if only to see the depths some airport owners are willing to sink. :yuk:

[boocs]

I also seem to recall an incident a fews years ago when a Qantas Int. flight was preparing to ditch in the ocean due to fog at PER. Thank goodness there was another crew down the back dead heading who came up with the brilliant idea of autolanding, even though conditions were below Cat 1 minima.

Can we expect more of this in the future if the brickwork project goes ahead.....?

[HEALY]

BOOCS
I always thought that was an urban legend. If it is true I would love to know what happened.

[west atc]

[QUOTE=boocs]I also seem to recall an incident a fews years ago when a Qantas Int. flight was preparing to ditch in the ocean due to fog at PER.

I have worked Perth for 8 years and have never heard of this one. There was a Qantas from the east coast that may have had to divert to Pearce if they couldn't land at Perth but I would doubt the ditching theory. Most internationals, Qantas included usually divert early if there is any fog at Perth.

[SkySista]

Have heard that one bantered around many times. Urban legend. Wx related diverts usually go to Kal, not entirely sure about the bigger stuff, isn't it normally ADL, or possibly Darwin?

Heard about a 777 going into Port Hedland (or was it Broome?) due med emergency... apparently they got a concession from the airport operator for that one...

[Capn Bloggs]

I have worked Perth for 8 years

A mere pup.

[IBTheseus]

A certain Capt originally from QF, then worked for AN, then jumped ship back to QF, and now I hear no longer working for QF repeated the story severals times during his tenure at AN as being more than urban legend.

[gaunty]

Hmmmmm!

Actually there another brickworks in Midland to the East of the centreline for 21, maybe 5 nm from the approach lights.

Whilst I do not have any affection at all for the owner of the new one, it is, like all of the modern plants gas not wood fired.

The only H20 coming off that is the water and not much of that either, out of the clay.

It was the wood fired plants with the consequent release of a huge amount of water into the atmosphere that caused the old problems.

[boocs]

I.B.T.

Indeed, this incident occurred in the very early days of 76 operations which for those who were young enough (indeed alive at the time) dates to early
'80's....

B.

[slice]

Have seen photos of a LH 744 that pulled into YPPD in the mid 90s sometime due to onboard heart attack. The aircraft evedently had to stay on the runway due to taxiway limitations etc and gettingthe patient off was a bit of a task with no stairs for this size a/c.


whoaaa - a bit of thread drift there!:ooh:

[Capn Bloggs]

Gaunty,

You're a party pooper! :}

Slice,

whoaaa - a bit of thread drift there!

What, a slice left or right?

[HEALY]

I "think" Learmonth is the alternate for the QF jets from Asia.A couple of years ago the Tokyo flight went back up there and a new crew had to be flown up due F & D limitations to fly back to YPPH. Fairly sure this is not urban legend.

[Keg]

Healy, QF flights have gone into Learmonth about once every year or two. The most recent was a HKG-PER A330 about mid last year. My understanding is that they were a two man crew and so were not able to turn the aircraft around and get it to MEL without busting FTLs and so the replacement crew was flown in.

[Keg]

I also seem to recall an incident a fews years ago when a Qantas Int. flight was preparing to ditch in the ocean due to fog at PER. Thank goodness there was another crew down the back dead heading who came up with the brilliant idea of autolanding, even though conditions were below Cat 1 minima.


Never happened. This was a 'rumour' when I first joined QF eleven years ago and it was supposed to be a decade or so before that and was attributed to an Ansett 727 rather than a QF type!

There is an example where a classic had diverted to YPLM due fog (actual) in PH and LM went out on approach due to unforecast low cloud. I think the story goes that they let down over water until visual and then came back in and landed. The bloke in the left seat was on his final command check at the time. To give you an example of how long ago it was, the trainee captain just finished his stint as 744 fleet manager. The training captain has long since retired (his son goes to my church).

IBThesus, I suspect that the person you are referring to was talking about this latter example and that something has been lost in translation or been otherwise embellished.

Never let the facts get in the road of a good story hey- especially when it sledges the 'sky-Gods'! :yuk: :*

[4Greens]

The near ditching never happened, the tale is rubbish!

[skurgler]

O.K,
Maybe not Perth but certainly not urban legend either , the (then TAA) DC9 DN-GV-CS in the early 80’s held at GV due unforecast CBs and then only got into GTE on his second attempt by busting minimas with literally only enough fuel left to fill a couple of Coke bottles.
The recorded comment from the FSO @ GV (remember them) to the DN Senior Operations Controller was along the lines during the second approach @ GTE "if he doesn’t make it (in) this time you better order 90 body bags"

[gaunty]

And then there was the F28 diverted to Fitzroy Crossing, no lights no comms, lucky as. The skipper Rowell was brought up there so local knowledge and the night nurse at the hospital just happening to be near the night switched office phone, the only link to Derby to call up the RFDS if needs be, saved the day, but I seem to recall they had to push the aircraft back up the runway to the bowser.:eek:

The nurse, a friend who trained with my wife eventually marrried an RFDS pilot.:ok:

[Feather #3]

Many years ago, a QF Capt nicknamed "Calamity" had yet another bad day when the PER runway lights went off the air during a technician's strike. One of the options voiced over the air was, indeed, ditching off Rottnest. No-one in authority could be contacted at Pearce.

In the end they rang a Tech at home and he came out; a fuse had blown in the lighting selector at the back of the console in the TWR cab. AFAIK, that's the only time ditching has been publicly contemplated. Heaven knows, we've even had a B707 autoland there on one occasion, but that's another story.

G'day ;)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

:ok: Yes GAUNTY,
Hello, long time no see...
Just a small point, whilst not wishing to 'diminish' your point....
Actually, He DID have 'comms'....with DBY FSU I believe - who was working very hard to help the man...
And, the Telephone at FTZ Hospital was answered by a VERY suprised nurse, when the DERBY FLIGHT SERVICE OFFICER (remember them??) rang, because in THOSE 'halcyon' days, it was ALL MANUAL exchanges and the 'Switch' was put thru to the hospital at night......
How would you be?? (To be the nurse concerned that is)?
'WOT'???????
Ring the cops, get the flares out ....ooops no kero in some, still lighting/laying flares as said FK28 did the remarkable, thanks to a rather remarkable pilot!!
I wonder just WOT would happen THESE days?????????????
Yeah, I know, P.A.L. etc....ah,....progress......
p.s. I trust that "THE MAN" is still enjoying a happy retirement!!!!!!:ok:

p.p.s. For 'Full Story'... "The West Australian" Saturday Magazine, about 18months - 2 years ago...Sorry if it was longer Harold....call it 'oldtimers'....

And, As a 'Young Fella CPL/Instructor' in 'Dem good ole' days'...I do remember sharing the CIRA at 'Meeka' with an 'Air India B707' who was diverted by the then ATC 'OPS CTL' due fog in PH, and who was possibly more suprised than I.....
Cheers!!!!!!!!:ok:

[gaunty]

Griffo like bad pennies we just keep turning up :E

Yup spot on :ok: I just couldn't be bothered filling in the detail.

The phone in question was the only line night switched in FTZ for outgoing calls in case they needed to get the RFDS to come and do their thing.

The said night duty nurse, would normally have been up the other end of the hospital, usually napping, as you do. :p and had no need and would not normally have been down the office end. I cant remember what took her down here but whatever it was saved a whole lot of lives.

I think the relief of the Derby FSO was only beaten by the surprise of the nurse.

No kero left in the aircraft either as it rowelled :rolleyes: to a stop.

FSO's ? I still remember them in my prayers before I go to sleep at night, they saved my sorry @rse sometimes and gave me comfort on those dark and stormy nights alongways from anywhere.

A Cessna factory guy was with me one night, Halls Creek to Perth evening monsoon thunderies, tip of a front, bit of ice, then gin clear Meeka south, 'til ILS to near the minima at Perth, damn near the same distance as halfway across the US, HF most of the way, not a sign of civilisation for hours 'cept the odd station lights and your only friend in the world the FSO.;)

All in a days work, he still talks about it to this day, his mates don't believe him. :ok:

[Capt Claret]

I've heard the story of the Fitzroy Fokker a few times, though not first hand.

Wasn't there a bit-of-a-party going on, and the first person to answer the phone thought it to be a prank (as you do when you're a pit bissed) and left the phone off the hook?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'day 'CC',
D O N ' T T H I N K S O . . . .
But it does add to the story.......or does it??????
T'was all v e r y serious.

[Capn Bloggs]

No parties.
To quote from Capt (Retd) Reg Adkins' book "I Flew For MMA":

The Flight Service Officer by now knew he had an emergency on his hands and had called out George Moyle, the DCA officer in charge. George had discovered a while back that there was a phone link from the Derby Doctor to the Fitzroy Hospital and offered to try to contact them to get a flare path laid. Some old kerosene flares were kept there in case of a rare Flying Doctor emergency. Harold affirmed this, carried out a missed approach and turned the aircraft for Fitzroy, climbing to 20,000ft to get the fuel consumption down. Trip time was now 27 minutes - virtually nothing in a Jet - and the hope was that Fitzroy could be contacted at what was now around 0330 (when everybody would be asleep), to get out to the strip and lay some flares for the aircraft to land by.

George Moyle kept ringing the Hospital which being understaffed, meant that the duty nurses were allowed to sleep, and it was only by the grace of God that the night duty Sister heard the little buzzer on the old telephone terminal at the other end of the hospital. Answering it, she was stunned by the news of a Jet Airliner coming there in the middle of the night, when they'd never even seen one in daytime. As always happens in these dire emergencies, the person contracted to do the job was unavailable, the flare pots were found empty and there was no kerosene at the airfield. A visiting Padre produced a spanner to open the flares for filling after someone had rushed back into town to find some kerosene.
Alex Henry was not idle while all this was going on, checking the track to Fitzroy and dialling up the Heading Selectors, working out an ETA and calculating the fuel remaining, as well as backing up his Captain at every request and monitoring the flight instruments for steady flight. At times like this aeroplanes can be lost when there are so many options to consider, calculations to be made and charts to find and peruse. If not positively monitored, they have been known to fly into the ground. Second pilot back up is therefore vital.

During the short flight across to Fitzroy they debated their course of action should no lights appear and whether to forced-land out there, or go back and put it down on the Marsh at Derby. But the few lights of Fitzroy appeared in the total blackness and, with the fuel tank low level barber poles now winking, Harold joined the circuit on what was, for MMA, essentially a non F.28 strip of unsealed gravel, although Fokker did approve of gravel operations.

Lining up for landing, and on short final, they realised the few flares they could see were on the far end of the strip and that car headlights lined up to help them were pointing the wrong way. There was no alternative but to go round again and Harold did an overshoot, flying a full tight circuit in the blackness of the outback with Alex monitoring speed and height and backing him up.

The fuel low level amber caution lights came on as he made another approach and put the aeroplane on the ground, braking on the gravel with speed brake and liftdumpers out and the anti-skid system doing its job, with only the minimum of lighting to guide him. As he turned off the runway both engines spooled down, not one drop of their life blood remaining.

Well done HR and AH. :ok:

[gaunty]

Thanks Bloggs, wonder where you got the electronic cut and paste from. :E

Alex Henry eh, forgotten about him, a true gentleman don't know where he is today, but wherever he is, he will be a pleasure to know and be with.:ok: Then there was Harry van Wees, Frank Schollman and all, come up the hard way.

If I recall correctly Derby to FTZ = 119nm. :ooh:

George Moyle kept ringing the Hospital which being understaffed, meant that the duty nurses were allowed to sleep, and it was only by the grace of God that the night duty Sister heard the little buzzer on the old telephone terminal at the other end of the hospital. Answering it, she was stunned by the news of a Jet Airliner coming there in the middle of the night, when they'd never even seen one in daytime exactly.:\

If you haven't got it, read it, I can recommend the book, about the days when men were men and pilots had the best looking girls and the best parties.:cool:

Promise I'll keep mum.;)

[coitus interuptus]

Before some of you lads jump on the "it didn't happen" bandwagon (QF ditching), I suggest you do a little more research. ATCO's I know say it did indeed happen and it was so close to ditching that it just aint funny. "SOP adherence gone mad" was one suggestion. There is a name of an off duty checkie that was on the flight who instigated the change of attitude to perform an auto-land. This is "common knowledge" in Perth.

Don't shoot me, I am simply the messenger. At a bar b recently I suggested it was a "tale". I was subsequently put back in my box. It was as real as you sitting in front of your computers right now!

[Capn Bloggs]

Gaunty,

It fell off the back of a truck driven by Bill Gates! :E

I can recommend the book, about the days when men were men

Got some good stuff in it about why the pilots of today are on such a good wicket. I just wish that more of the young sprogs knew what went on in the old days as they chase each other to the bottom, but I digress... :{

[scramjet77]

Jaysus wept Bloggs!!!!! I've just thrown up a rather expensive bucket of ice cream having read your Buuuuulllllldust. Hero/hangar stories blah blah blah. Why dont you tell em about your early early _____ training days, and what was it that you were given to read?

I'll meetcha out in the carpark for a p*ss*ng contest next week. (love ya heaps though) (no seriously I do).:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[NS Driver]

Not nit picking skergler, but it was a Ansett DC9 not one of the TN variety. I was stationed in GV at the time of the incident.

[Transition Layer]

What the f*ck are you on about Scramjet?

Bloggs, awesome book that one, read it when I was about halfway through my PPL and it was a great motivator at the time. I read it again a few years later after working in the Kimberley, flying to places such as Wyndham and Gibb River and the stories meant so much more to me.

TL :ok:

[Brian Abraham]

we've even had a B707 autoland there on one occasion, but that's another story

Well that was a tantalising entree Feather #3. Could we please have the main course (and desert to follow I hope). There are aviation nutters out here who love a good story - true or not.

[gaunty]

scramjet77

Steady on young man.:)

I was, like the aforementioned well into my aviation career in the late sixties.

Captain Adkins (know him and the beautiful Shirley well), book, faithfully recalls the flavour and characters of the time in what was then and still is to an extent one of the worlds truly remote areas.

My company, was like MMA complaining about the recent closure of the Pt Hedland Met office and transfer to Perth, due to local wx peculiarities inc the unforecast fog that caught them out, but was a well known phenomenon.
If I recall correctly it was reopened at PD shortly after.

We were peripherally involved in the recovery.

As Bloggs say's I just wish that more of the young sprogs knew what went on in the old days as they chase each other to the bottom, but I digress... :{

[scramjet77]

Dear Trans*x/Transv*st*te/Transitionlayer,

It was actaully a little private joke between the Bloggsmeister and me. I know him well, love him dearly and love to toss the odd grenade into his bunker, duck for cover and when the dust settles, see what emerges.

However, since you asked the question, what I am “on about” my dear friend, is the breathtakingly parochial nature of certain people (not directed at R.A) who have only flown within 1 or 2 states of the country and yet have the temerity to suggest that “we are/were the best pilots/organisation the world has ever seen”. This would be based on what? Banging around the same place for twenty-five years, 1 years experience 25 times?

I love flying and always have, but quite frankly the egos on display within this industry just make you want to puke. (God knows there are many on display on this site everyday) The irony of it is, that those with the smallest horizons seem to have the biggest egos. Our contemporaries who have experienced flying overseas or for differing and varied organisations i.e. those with the broadest horizons and experience base are the ones who realise that Australia really is a backwater when it comes to aviation. Something the “locals” are just too insular to realise.:ok:

Anyway, now the woomera can give me a caning for hijacking the thread.

P.S. I too loved the book.

[Transition Layer]

No worries Scramjet, I probably asked the question in a little bit of an agressive manner, apologies for that, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one out there scratching my head in wonder at what you were saying.

Cheers,
TL

[Woomera]

:rolleyes: :ouch: :ok: :uhoh: :cool: :)

[Feather #3]

BA,

Many years ago, QF had a particular Captain who was always on about carrying too much fuel. He would call the individual Met Ctr appropriate to his destination and have a private weather briefing, cutting his fuel order cloth accordingly and even reducing the fuel on some occasions.

However, the MRU-PER leg one night nearly proved his undoing. They arrived at PER on the smell of an oil rag [well, kero, anyway] with nowhere to go and 8/8 FG. Equally, QF had just decided to go below 300'/1200m as a minima by using the Radio Altimeter, a device not included in most scans up to this time. So in near zero vis, they devised a plan to go down the ILS auto-coupled, disconnect at around 50' and flare a bit below that. Not quite auto-land [or the manual Cat II my mates were using years ago in Europe], but adventurous enough for the era.

I think this only cured him of reducing fuel orders into PER. It was, at yet another time of fuel conservation, espoused by Neilikins[fuel saving guru of the day] as the only place we should ALWAYS carry an alternate [then Meeka.]

G'day ;)

[greybeard]

gaunty,

As to your Q, Harold is still around, 85 last Dec, Alex regrettably no longer with us, the other two, VW is retired and Scholman I don't know.

I flew with Harold many times before and after the Fitzroy saga, a gentleman through and through, a great mentor to a then apprentice aviator.

Fog at Hedland one night found us going to our "optional" of Newman, burn +15% +20mns which meant the low tank barbers poles were ON as we were still in the cruise, I was cutting washers from the seat cushion, a BIG hand came out of the dark, touched my shoulder and the man said, " it's OK, they fly with a lot less", classic stuff and all was well.

Oh the old days when sex was safe and the flying was not

Cheers
:ok: :ok:

[Brian Abraham]

Thanks Feathers. Always interesting how other facets of the business get to play the game. Should be a good book in here if all the stories were to be collated.

the woomera can give me a caning

Scram - I would have thought he would perhaps use his name sake to hurl the instrument for which it was designed. :)