124,9 New request radio show

[desertrose]

Did I miss the Notam on 124,9 being changed into a request radio show?

Ever since Dubai has gone single runway ops we have had more requests for non-standard thing than before:

* "can we maintain high speed?"

* "can we slow down?"

* "can we fly minimum clean speed?"

* "any possibility of landing on 30 if 12 is in use and landing 12 if 30 is in use?"

* "can we have a shortend approach?"

* if asked to reduce to a certain speed - "can't we rather maintain ... knots?"

* "request routing direct ......."

* "request futher climb"

* "request futher descent"

* "what is the type of aircraft ahead of us?"

* "what is our number in sequence?"

* request this

* request that

HERE ARE SOME OF MY REQUESTS

* Use your full callsign

* comply with speed restrictions (we have radar and can see when you lie to us)

* Please give your exact altitude passing on first contact

* I do not want to know how many passangers you have on board

* Listen out on frequency

* Do not respond to another aircraft's callsign

* Please give complete readbacks

* Comply with the climb gradient as published and advise us if you can not comply



Thank you

[wastafarian]

judging from the posts here recently, there are a few cranky controllers in dubai these days. having said that, thanks for being the most professional bunch in the gulf region.

[chinawladi]

Nothing to do with DXB single runway ops. With the huge demand of drivers in the region, the ridiculous T+C's and the abysmal treatment endured by local managements, the capable guy's say "no thanks". Both by not showing up and by leaving. So it's just the clown factor increasing, as the new planes are still beeing crewed.

[Nimmer]

Hey everybody, were not cranky. Just underpaid and over worked!!!!!

[BBJ King]

Welcome to the expanding club. :hmm:

[Dct no speed]

Desertrose has a lot of valid request mine is a lot easier!

I would like: Confirmend rebate tickets for the Rugby in France and the Soccer in Germany the odd upgrade on Flights to Europe and responsible driving on the Zheikh Zayed road. Oh!!! and the same increase as the boys at the DCA and Abu Dhabi. :ok: :ok: :ok:

What........... I can not !!!!:{

Well please leave your request after the beep. :p All our controllers are busy right now but please continue to hold! ring ding the ding ding ding ding la la la laaa.............. :ok:

[BBJ King]

SS. Good post. And funny too.

[ruserious]

While we have some of you chaps from our Air Traffic Service Unit, can you explain to me why we need to be separated both horizontally and vertically from virtually ALL traffic. Is it just a case of "to be sure, to be sure".
Don't get me wrong I do sympathise with you regarding some of the dumber rules our regulator thrusts upon you.
Finally did I mention that the airlines and aircraft are actually the customers for your service and it would seem reasonable to be allowed to make the odd request.

[03Rnow30R]

Rus

It's guys like you we would love to see in the center. You obviously have no idea what goes on here. Oh, and we do provide vertical and horizontal some times because not everybody seems to do what they are told around here! These will be guys that have learned through burned fingers. First part of providing the SERVICE is to be SAFE. If you want to clog up the frequency with your requests, be our guest. Just remember that next time you go straight through the loc as somebody hogs the R/T with the request for something. To the guys with productive posts, thanks.

[desertrose]

Seaman Stayens

Thank you so much for your translations! :ok: It put a :D on my face!

I think it is a great idea for the pilots to come visit the ATC centre!:ok: Not just a visit but to sit for at least a hour and listen out on frequency during peek periods (which unfortunetly is round-about midnight)

I think a lot of our flying friends are unaware of all the restrictions/limitations that are put on ATC. Like the most recent instruction from the GCAA that we have to provide 15nm spacing on final for 30R if aircraft (parked on the northern side) requires full lenght departure. So if you are number 3 in sequence you are looking at a whooping 45nm final...... :ugh:

So..... bye-bye to the following requests::{

* high speeds
* own speeds
* direct Lovol
* opposite runway landing
* can we slow down
* ect, ect, ect....

I think it is great to have a forum like this where we can chat and have more of an understanding of each others work:ok:

[cat man do]

desertrose, you been stuck in the sand to long. The spacing for finals were dictated by Dubai DCA, why not tell them about the 20nm spacing required from the other side?
Great postings guys :ok:
Cat out :zzz:

[puff m'call]

I really do think as pilots we need to "put up" or "Shut up", we are not ATC controllers us much as we like to think we are, "desertrose" has explaned the reasons why we appear to be dicked around coming in and out of DXB and it's not their fault.

As someone said a couple of replies ago, just listen to the p1ss poor R/T coming from some of our aircraft, some of the idiots shouldn'd be aloud anywhere near a radio transmitter and it's all down to the quality of pilots we are recruiting these days, and some of the crap ones we already have!!! We need to get our own house in order before we start telling ATC what they should be doing.

Anyone landing at midnight last night, holding at Desdi? Thought the guy running tower did at pretty swish job getting A/C up and down with only one runway. " cleared immediate T/O". "expect late landing clearance"."cross 12L". All very good.

Thanks ATC...........:ok:

PS.... would be happy for a peak period visit to listen to "some" of our stupid pilots.

[ruserious]

Oh boy, well you ask a reasonable question......, funnily enough just like what started this thread. It's guys like you we would love to see in the center. You obviously have no idea what goes on here
Well it works both ways, maybe if you did a few familiarity trips, you would understand some of our problems and frustrations.
As it happens I have been to your control center and many others round the world, including a very interesting weekend spent at Gatwick approach. The separation question was a serious one, not a dig at you. Most other well developed ATSU's round the world either separate horizontally or vertically, rarely both. Yes it is safer to do both, just a lot less efficient. Numerous times I have been held between 5-10 miles abeam and 1000' separated from traffic to the point it has resulted in a rushed approach that loads up the crew and provides opportunities for error. and indeed the odd missed approach.
As I said before, I do understand that our regulator puts in place many restrictions on how you operate, however it would be fair to say we can be frustrated by these as we have seen much better systems elsewhere, as indeed you may have experienced more consistenly professional pilots elsewhere.

[ruserious]

Puff, I pretty well agree with everything you have just said, however I still believe that there is a time and place for a reasonable request, in well phrased RT, with due consideration given to controller workload, TCAS information and level of traffic.

[puff m'call]

Yes rus I too agree with you but, and there is always a but, not all of our pilot are asking for reasonable requests at reasonable times, and as always asking stupid question like, " what's the a/c type ahead", "What speed would you like".
Of course the company doesn't help matters with their stupid SOP's like not being able to accelerate below 5000ft on departure when told "No speed control" and flying at 278kts in the descent, (not that i do). Try that one in the London TMA!

It matters not what the A/C type ahead is, ATC will co-ordinate the traffic, not us, and you assume standard speed until otherwise told. Little things like that will help ATC alot

It's not difficult to be professional, it's what we are trained to do.

Take it easy.

Puff. :ok:

[03Rnow30R]

Rus.

We would love to do jumpseat rides with EK or anybody else around here, but we are not allowed to. We have had a thread before on the same topic. Regarding visits to the center, you are most welcome. I am trying to arrange one for somebody else at the moment. A visit isn't enough. A proper plug in and work with us to see our limitations too. We are aware of many of the problems you have as pilots, and this is the kind of thread that can help things even more. Give us specific gripes, and we can discuss your and our constraints.

Regarding the horizontal and vertical seperation. I take it from your example you were on a late downwind. The reason many guys use vertical AND lock you on a downwind heading, is that many a time somebody has not locked on the heading and commenced the turn as per the STAR towards the traffic on final. I promise you this happens more often than you think. Not me, I am sure you will say, but just think if you were the guy on final. Once again there is also the SJ traffic you may not be aware of coming off the opposite runway to DB underneath you or straight in head on below you. There is also a bit of restricted airspace that we are not allowed to descend you below 4000' on late downwind, just at the base turn, due to noise and serious doo-doo if we do do.

All I can add is that if you are not happy with the approach, or not able to do something, let us know so we can make another plan. We do try to provide you with a service. As with ATC's, some pilots are more competent than others. Today I may have a 777 ready to do a tight approach from 6 miles and quite high and tomorrow a different guy can't do the same thing. There is also no standard to the way different guys fly the same aircraft on the same approach. I am aware there are reasons for this, either technical or a tight rear ended Captain, etc. Just let me know if you can't do it!

I do have a question especially for the EK guys. We are getting a lot of wake sidestep requests these days. On downwind and in the climb-out, with the preceding 10 to 15 miles ahead. I have never experienced this before, any idea why or what is causing it here especially? Or is this common all over?

Cheers:ok:

[ruserious]

Never heard of a wake sidestep request either and considering the normal separation we get in Dubai, I would argue that its not needed.

My comments on 5-15 miles and 1000' of separation are really a combination of the downwind, intermediate descent and climb level off scenarios with both approach and area control. The 10 mile & 1000' separations are usually above 13,000'

There is no doubt the 6- 8000' downwind (usually because of a SHJ arrival) followed by a decent to 2000' and 7 mile final is the most challanging. Personally I love 'em, however they do require good situation & energy awareness to do consistently. Throw in a combination of fatigue and differing pilot-age skills and you have a recipe for go-arounds or worse. I have asked (and got) extensions of the downwind because I know that we have too much energy to achieve what the controller asks. This can be a tough call, potentially unnecessary and also a pain for the controller.

[desertrose]

Dear cat man do

Our Temporary Instruction 04/06 clearly says the GCAA mandated that we protect the glide-path critical and sensitive area.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Personally rus I use 5nm or 1000ft but others ,with just cause use both.

Why?

Busy sequence, lots of stuff going on, vectors on a number of a/c. You have the {insert any airline here as has happened to most} on parallel vectors with slower/faster a/c both on unrestricted decent. Avert your eyes when flight progress strips given to you\checking other a/c on vectors\answering co-ord lines. When you look back you wonder what the :mad: the {insert any airline name here} is doing going direct to a waypoint when should still be on vectors and where the hell your 5nm went. This you get to contemplate during your days off and your retraining for a mistake that someone else caused.


Why retraining? Well 5nm and 1000ft are the min std. If "deemed" necesary you should use more or multiple std's. Above situation has happened to most of us, the lucky ones were useing a back up std {ie vert} no sep loss, no retraining, just a :mad: up sequence.


Hope this helps understand why we are a bit careful at times.:ok:

[Dct no speed]

Puff & Seaman

Thanks for sticking up for the boys&girls in the broom-closet also know as the Control room from where we provide our service. You can look for us on the airfield between the luggage trollies and outer Mongolia :yuk:

It is not that we do not want you to visit us, it is just that we don't want you to laugh at our equipment and world class rest facilities.

Have to agree with SEAMANSTAYENS we will get a better deal flying with you than you visiting us, we have no button to press for drinks and we don't even get left overs let alone airline food!

Trying to keep a tight sequence running need the help of all the "BUTTS' in the air and on the ground. Like you rightly say there is always a but OR BUTT that can stuff it up really well for all. We had this little a:mad: hole the other day that did not comply with an instruction to turn left, the words for traffic was included in the transmission. They simply followed the SID and turned right.After then being told that they did not follow the instructions as given and acknowledged their only response was another request........."Any Speed restriction?" WTF:mad:

Now that I got that of my chest!

My request please tell me in time if you are going to need extra track miles, like 03r/30r said we don't know how heavy you are or how much of a tight A:mad: your captain is. And specially for my friends from the Sub continent, and South Asia, please decide before you get airboune who will do the radio work as I cannot hear a word you say, if you both call at the same time !

Good post thanks to the fly boys for trying to understand !

How about those upgrades????? :ok: :cool:

Now any one requesting DCT NO SPEED?:ok:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Trimotor, exactly how can you guess how far downwind you have to go, and as such approximately how many track miles you have to go when you have no way of knowing what the required spacing is. With Dubai operating with single runway ops, they may have a backlog of departures they need to get away, to allow you to have somewhere to park. Because of this they may need extra space between you and the guy ahead of you.

I am not working Dubai App but on area we are more and more often having pilots second guessing our instructions based on the almighty TCAS. While pilots having situational awareness is a good thing, it is a right royal pain being questioned, "why am I still being vectored, are we number 2 to that aircraft 11 NM's in our 2 o'clock". If you are being vectored, our workload has usually increased, so we don't have time to tell you that we require 15 NM or 20 NM spacing, or that the aircraft ahead is about to be reduced to 250 KT's because of the slow F50 ahead of him, that you haven't seen on your almighty TCAS. Sometimes it is nice just to let the ATC do their job, and I won't try and tell you how to do your job. TCAS is nice tool, but it is not a radar screen, and you don't have a radar ATC rating, so if you are on a vector, or you have been slowed, we have good reason.

Also one last thing. Just because the R/T is quiet doesn't mean we are not talking our arses off on land lines, getting/passing revisions to one of the 6 neigbouring sectors/FIR's. So if you make a call, and we tell you to standby, thats what it means, STANDBY, and we don't need an acknowledgment that you copied the call to standby, that sort of defeats the purpose.

[03Rnow30R]

Good post guys

Regarding TCAS. Just remember that my radar picture is taken from a stationary radar head with all the targets moving relative to it. Your TCAS picture has you moving too, so you don't get the proper picture and you only pick up a speed differential reletive to yourself after a while. My groundspeed readout is immediate. If you are on your own with aircraft way ahead, sure ask for a speed if it will help you, but please don't ask for an extra 9 knots if the one ahead is 5 to 10 miles ahead of you. It increases my workload watching you so you don't get too close, as your speeds aren't matched, and will end up causing the vertical + horizonatal seps we were on about earlier.

Cheers:ok:

[Nimmer]

5 miles and a 1000 feet being used for seperation is one of my major niggles, I hate to see it and something I never teach and try to discourage. I also hate to see the 5 mile "ring" around aircraft applied. When 1 has passed another and there is no danger of collision, then as in the "real ATC world" 1 aircraft climbs the other descends, easy really!!!

Of course, here in the Middle East the GCAA seem to want to re-invent the wheel and constantly introducing new procedures to over complicate things, the new instruction about the ILS being constantly protected to CAT II criteria is a cracker. Tell me you pilots, when you say to ATC you are doing a Auto-land and we say" ILS is not protected" what does that mean to you?

Good thread this, the major theme seems to be that let the controllers control and the pilots fly, we are always trying to give you the best service, so if there is a chance of high speed, early descent, opposite direction approach etc, you will get it. Believe it or not we at Dubai and the guys at the Centre know what we are doing, not too sure about RAK though!!!!!

[Dct no speed]

Nimmer

Are we allowed to say RAK SUCKS on this forum?????:confused:

Thanks ANSA and 03L/30R on giving more info on TCAS!!

[desertrose]

Hello cat man

I think you were refering to the inbound spacing the UAE ACC has to provide us, while I was talking about the new instruction for spacing on final!

For our flying friends who are not aware of this.....

If 12L is in use the UAE ACC has to provide inbound spacing of 20nm for traffic inbound from Desdi and 15nm for traffic from Bubin

If 30R is in use the UAE ACC has to provide inbound spacing of 15nm for traffic inbound from Bubin and 10nm for traffic inbound from Desdi

[gl69]

Here is a suggestion to clear up the frequency. Why do we need to metion what type of aircraft we are in on intial contact? If the controller really wants or needs to know what A/C we are in he/she can look at the strip.
All that is needed as has been discussed in this post is flight #, alt passing and cleared to, and ATIS letter. That can be accomplished in about 4-5 seconds. No need for the STAR or anything else and no need for the controller to read back the altimeter setting or runway in use. We know all of that because WE HAVE THE ATIS INFORMATION.
Also is you have a flight numer that is easier said as a whole number, say it. It saves time. An example would be Emirates #500. Just say "five hundred" instead of "Emirates Five, Zero, Zero. That would save about 2-3 seconds per transmission.
As everyone who has been to the states knows first hand, less is more. That is the less transmissions the better for everybody. After all we are all professionals and know what is going on in the terminal environment.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Nimmer I can understand why 5nm and vert is a bit of a niggle but as stated I can understand why people use both.

With the frequency(I see it at leatst 10 times a shift) of pilots doing their own thing regarding tracking/vectors, either through mistakes or bloodyheadedness, teaching guys how to control defensively is a good thing IMHO. Once they are comfortable then they will revert to useing one or the other until they get stung. As I said I tend to use one or the other but teach my guys defense first. Then at the end of the training or when I think they have the ability to understand when a sit may go bad we move onto just one std with a backup plan.:ok:

[ruserious]

Great thread, inevitably we will always suffer from differences in perspective.
There is no doubt, from our perspective one of the biggest improvements would be to cut down the level of verbosity (from both sides of the mike). I listen to some pilots making a mini-series out of a simple request and indeed some of the more inexperienced ATCO's can be a bit flowery in their communication style. With all the human & cultural variability we have in our environment these are not easy problems to fix.
However, it would be worth lobbying-educating the regulator to not insist on a controller stating things like the ATIS code and QNH, when a pilot has just stated them. Controllers should be able to use their judgement as to content of RT instructions, not to have them regulated into becoming unwieldy & verbose.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

And Desert Rose, their is a certain old man crew in Dubai App, who find 20 NM intrail spacing isn't enough, and also ask us to have everyone back to 250 KTs at Bubin/Desdi. Then invariably after vectoring everyone all over the sky ,gives everyone direct to final approach fix and high speed on first contact. That must be very confusing to the pilots, and makes us all look pretty silly. Anyway don't want to hijack a good thread with my complaints.

Gl69, having spoken to many yank pilots here, I can honestly say that by trying to abbreviate the calls, for the most part it increases the R/T in the long run. The problem being they leave out what we need, ie. level passing and cleared level, or on being given an instruction they don't read it back and don't use a callsign, and just say roger. Now maybe that has been deemed to be ok in the states but I am not going to risk the wrong Emirates aircraft descending in respnse to someone elses instruction, so I will chase a readback, and so I will clog up the radio even longer. Everything runs smoother if everyone just says what they are supposed to say, quickly and concisely and correctly.

I say again, say level passing and level cleared to on first contact!!!!!!! (we should print that up as a bumper sticker and have it stuck to the inside of the windscreen of every aircraft that flies in and out of the UAE!!!!)

[gl69]

Air No you agreed with some of my points but accused me of others I did not mean or even say. I said that only the basic required items need to be metioned AND NOTHING ELSE. That includes the repeated altimeter setting and runway assigned. We already know that why are you telling me that again?
Having been in Australlia and the US I can say without question that the US does it better. There is no way Chicago approach could get in half the amount of airplanes it they did the R/T the way you advocate. I know different strokes for different folks but why say more than you have to? I realize the Australlians have their way of doing things and they can do that with the amount of traffic they have. But the basic question I go back to is less more? Why say something if you don't have to?
Replying "Roger" is not acceptable to an order. Not repeating runway crossing is not acceptable. This does not apply to DXB but a pilot can say cleared to land runway "9" instead of zero, nine. Again it saves time and that what this thread is all about.

[ruserious]

ANA, oooh that's so bitchy, show some respect for any senior citizens lurking in Dubai :)
I say again, say level passing and level cleared to on first contact!!!!!!! OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.

[uplock]

Good info interesting reading

Slightly Off Topic however the word U.S was mentioned .....have a look at the following link for some humour on Mr Bush..will take some time to load even with a ADSL connection but worth the wait

http://www.jibjab.com/swf/JibJab_205YearEnd.swf

[Funk]

ANA, oooh that's so bitchy, show some respect for any senior citizens lurking in Dubai :)
OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.

at the UAE ACC archaic rules apply to radar transfer (amongst others) between units, we have to verify the mode C each time you call outbound from DB/AA and inbound from surrounding units :rolleyes:
you have to remember where you are and the culture that purveys, we aren't even allowed to use/pass gate times at desdi or bubin to stop everybody turning up at once for the desdi/bubin airshow...apparently pilots can't tell the time (despite their enormous watches!) :ok:

[ruserious]

I've only got a little one, that's why its hard to see :ooh:

[what_goes_up]

OK so no problem with the cleared level, that's standard the world over. Why is the passing level so important? Is your altitude display sometimes erroneous or is it just a logic check?
Part of the problem we have as pilots, is the varying standards and requirements around the world (and we definitely have limited mental capacity to remember them all). When you are used to a lean, logical and sound system anything extra seems inefficient and definitely not safer.

Ruserius, you might want to check ICAO Doc 4444. Quoting the passing level is standard all over the world (well maybe not the US as they are above the world anyway:} ) 'cause controller needs to check Mode C read-out within 300ft. Otherwise he's not allowed to use. So it is bad airmanship if you don't quote as the controller has to ask back and YOU clogg up the freq.

[ruserious]

Well there you go, never read ICAO Doc 4444 so I stand corrected. I presume it being an ICAO doc it is a SARP (Standard and/or Recommended Procedure). This does not mean that all regulators require or indeed request it, as ICAO is not a regulator in its own right.

I have to say tho the mode C check is not done very often in civilisation, either that or I am not paying attention (can I use fatigue as an excuse).

[03Rnow30R]

Regarding level passing. We need it to be within 200ft of the one you give us to verify it in DB. The mode C is supposed to be done everywhere. You may notice it here more, because ourselves and UAE run different radar systems and therefor it needs to be reverified on handover. Most other places I know, you usually pass it in the cruise on first contact out of habit and when you are airborne.

ANSA, carefull now regarding the old chaps. You may wake them. Noticed you have one down your way too.

Cheers:ok:

[desertrose]

As 03L/30R said we need to verify mode C within 200ft here. :bored:
Believe me, they (bosses) can get anal about it. If say for instance an aircraft has a level bust (which has nothing to do with the controller) and the regulators take a look at the radar tape and they observe that the mode C is not verified within 200ft you've verified it, then you as controller will be in deep :mad: , even though the mode C verification had nothing to do with the level bust.
So....that is why we as controllers keep on asking level passing until the pilot gives the exact level passing.

[ruserious]

fair 'nuff, can't argue with that. I always do it anyway in your airspace (honest), just don't enjoy it

[desertrose]

Believe me I don't enjoy having to keep on asking and asking and asking....:bored:

A lot of times the pilots think they are being pro-active by rounding off the altitude passing. Here is the frustrating part.:{

Aircraft call inbound reports passing altitude 12000ft (radar indicates altitude 12700ft)
So ATC asks to report altitude passing (pilot thinks "is this guy an idiot? I just gave it to him")
Pilot responds with: passing altitude 12000ft (radar indicates altitude 12600ft) Again ATC asks altitude passing
Pilot very irritaded says: PASSING ALTITUDE 12000ft!!!!:* (radar indicates 12500ft)
ATC then asks the pilot to kindly report the exact/actual altitude passing for verification of mode C
Pilot then reports passing altitude 12400ft! (YIPEEEEE he got it right:D :ok: )
How many extra transmissions were that????

Meantime poor old ruserious is flashing through the localiser because of all the extra transmissions:eek:

[puff m'call]

Oh that last one made me laugh, pleased to see we all still have our sence of humour.

Now for the good news, all of our bad R/T problems have been taken care of, rumour has it that some some our new pilots who's english was not quite as we would like it, have been sent for elocution lessons.

Just goes to show the quatily (or not) of pilots we are recruiting. QED. :sad:

[ruserious]

Now I know I am blissfully monolingual and not particularly proud of it, but I just flew with a newish chap who had me "gritting me teef". It was like watching frozen treacle flowing up hill, seeing him digest an instruction, translate it from English to Hurdy Gurdy and back again to English, then transmit a barely cohesive reply.
DR, you are so spot on, I have blown through the 30R localiser for EXACTLY that reason

[desertrose]

I'm so sorry.....I feel for you

[tic]

We ALL did radio licenses. WE PASSED! We would not be there if we didn't, correct? ATC has an issue and it's a valid one. Say the altitude, or the Flight level passing on 1st contact. Don't say passing 3000', say ALTITUDE 3000'. Similarly, don't say, level 190, say FLIGHT LEVEL 190. Quite easy. We BOTH know where we stand then.

[Dct no speed]

Ruserious,
I know the feeling !!!!!! And trying to put back the hair I have just pulled out has not worked (so look for the bold guy ) NO! I am not the old guy Airno is revering to I said bold !!!
Here is the instruction: Callsign ,"turn right 270 cleared I.L.S approach rwy 30 right. Report localizer establish"........................simple hey?
now .......................................silence............(L LZ closing in) callsign again........."did you copy".........(LLZ closing) .
silence........
suddenly!!!!!!! "any speed restrictions for us"... NO CALLSIGN (some where out there) .......(get's ignored)......silence .......... back to "Callsign turn right heading now 290 cleared approach".....silence......then......"aaaahhhh connfiiirmmm the last was for aaah" (forgot callsign) another voice in the background....."he said right turn cleared for the approach"
then ...........silence.........."any speed resrictions for us" with callsign this time! (gets ignored) just as.... "aaaaahhhhh right turn cleared approach confirm runway 30 Right" goes flashing through the localizer.........."Any speech restrictions for us " it echoes ,as ATC pulls hair out and try to refrain from using :"you dumb .....:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: " on frequency!
Offffffff ccccccause, as always
Dct no speed

[GlueBall]

What's a typical Mode-C altitude lag on your radar scope for an airplane that's descending at 3500fpm, or for an empty jet that may be climbing at 2500fpm? :rolleyes:

[ruserious]

Maybe you should hold the equivalent of the Hollywood Golden Raspberry Awards, for the worst performance of the year. We could call it the RT Muppetry award for disservice to professional aviation. Nothing like a bit of name & shame, just inform the protagonists that they have been shortlisted for the awards after landing.
Saying that one of my favourite experiences in life is taxying in after a long all nighter and trying to get my tongue to readback a simple instruction, so I had better be careful :} Always wanted to win an award :rolleyes:

[footsore]

Answers simple:

Carry sh*tloads of extra fuel (no worries about fuel then)
Fly .85 enroute (rather than hi speed at the DXB end)
Descend with full speed barake (after your level off in descent)
Fly the full star at min clean speed
Enjoy the view
Give ATC a break (our view is generally better than theirs);)

[Wiley]

Seems to me a lot of these misunderstandings would be reduced if we re-introduced ATC fam lights. I know HAH at EK isn't against the idea, so a bit of a push (like an official letter) from the ATCO bosses to TCAS would probably get them up and running again.

I for one would be more than happy to have you guys in the jump seat as often as it can be arranged - particularly inbound to DXB around and just after midnight. You might, however, not be too happy with what you see on the fuel gauges in that last couple of thousand feet prior to landing on such flights after what is becoming the 'standard' DXB vectoring.

The magic word in such circumstances is "commit". Some might say that we who do so should be committed.

[03Rnow30R]

Wiley, I agree about the jumpseats and the other way round too. Would love to have you with us at midnight to see what it looks like from our side. I think we can learn quite a bit from each others problems. At the moment the ATC's are "trying" to make the best of a bit of a poo situation regarding the runways/taxiways and rules.

Will ask our bosses about requesting the jumpseats AGAIN.

Thanks for the offer.:ok:

[03Rnow30R]

Glueball

Will have to confirm the update rate of our radar system. If it is around 3 to 4 seconds, then it works out to around a 200ft lag (at 3500fpm) with that update rate. That will tie in with our tollerance. If we do have a major problem verifying a mode C because of a massive rate of d or climb, we can always check it when leveled off, or when you reduce the rate (as long as we verify it before using it for vertical seperation). Can't say I have had a problem with that yet, but good point.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

A question to all the pilots reading this. With 20 NM in trail spacing required for the usual midnight rush straight in approaches to RWY12, it is impossible to fit the aircraft we have in without major major delays. Now some guys prefer to try and achieve this with big vectors, at least for a while and then succumb to just whacking everyone in the hold. Which do you guys prefer. Do you want a scenic tour of the gulf, or would you prefer to be kept high, whacked into the hold at DESDI and spin your way down?

Second question is with all the delays in place in Dubai, has there been a holding advisory NOTAM put out, telling aircraft to expect half an hour holding due to runway works? If there hasn't been surely there should be, because more and more often are we having pressure on us from pilots, ie. We can only hold for 10 minutes due to fuel etc. I mean we all know there will delays in the evenings so surely better for pilots to be forewarned and be carrying some extra fuel for "mum and the kids".

[LDG NO BLUE]

I prefer a CTOT out of my departure aerodrome.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

never happens same as slot times as the great dane does not want anyone to think there are delays into his airspace

[sandborne]

Contacted
Try about four/five minutes max with the airspace we have and the winter winds. Any more than that it becomes a nightmare for you and I. I think that you will find now that more and more of us are using holding, particularly for 12 from the west. We can't provide EATs in the hold because we aren't allowed to use set course times for sequencing and often don't know ourselves. The best you can get normally is advice as to how many laps you will do in the hold so if you are fuel critical a latest divert/approach time from you wouldn't hurt. My only other advice for you guys who are flying here is to maintain your sense of humour, more and more you are going to need when returning home to the sandy cities.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I agree with Sandborne. A latest divert time with alternate is always appreciated ahead of time, rather than "we need to divert in 5 minutes", as that doesn't give us much time to get you through the four guys holding below you.

We sometimes know that we can give Dubai 20 NM in trail so from that we can extrapalate how long the holding will be, but when the airshow hits from both the East and the West, it can be anyones guess when and how far apart Dubai will be able to take guys out of the hold, so a lot of the time we can only give a guesstimate as to hold long you will hold.

Hopefully all these works will finish one day, and we can go back to 10 Nm in trail from both sides. Until then, it will continue to be a bun fight each evening at about midnight.

[donpizmeov]

When given the choice I would like the hold instead of vectors. However I was vectored in front of the guys in the hold the other night, more of that if available too please.
I think the use of the 1 runway has improved a whole bunch over what it was like last time. Good work from the guys in the twr, app, UAE etc. Hope it stays like that if/when both runways open.
About time we organise another Pilot, ATC, Engineer, and anyone else work meet at Dubliners.

Don

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Don, sometimes it's the luck of the draw, and I guess it was your lucky night. Basically if I have Number 1...10NM....Number 2.....10NM......Number 3, and I need 20 NM's, number 2 loses, and gets held. Numbers 1 and 3 run through, Number 2 does 1 hold and naturally slots 20 NM's behind number 3. Hope that makes sense. Thats why to some of the pilots it seems unfair to be held while someone behind you runs through, but it's the most efficient way to run the sequence. Cheers.

[airbus757]

"EKs fuel policy allows us to commit to destination provided landing with at least Final Reserve Fuel is assured (runway is open, weather sufficient, etc). This can be done only if the Maximum Delay or EAT is known."

Not true. You can also commit if you can land at two different airports with more than final reserve. At EK we meet this requirement on 99% of the arrivals in DXB.

7

[Wiley]

airbus757, if you're using Sharjah as your second airport, you may be in for a rude surprise should you ever be forced to use it.

Let me add my vote to preferring to be put high in the hold rather than being given the grand low level drag it in tour.

[Dct no speed]

To the drivers air frame and fellow ATC(specially the high paids down South)

One of the biggest issues conserning DXB is that we have the free far all, Sorry "open skies" policy here. This means no slots for either departures or arrivals. So NO way of regulating anything.

I sit on Arrivals and phone my Area buddies to reduce spacing as no, or only a couple of departures are moving on our ground radar.
They work hard to reduce spacing and so do the flyers, who get into profile and slow down and go down as best they can. Then without warning the holding point start to fill up and tower start pushing for more gaps.

It is time that our "great dane" (are DANES not at the moment suppose to be the villain ?) come to the party and realise that we need to start regulating things with slots for arrivals and departures specially when we are going to have work in progress.

Also making stupid rules for ILS LSA's borders on the absured ! If it is not CAT2 conditions let us use the VOR or GPS approach and the CAT 2 only in CAT 2 conditions.

The worst problem here is that the AREA guys are "not suppose to ask us for any help" another great Danish plan.
We ,well some of us, try and give as much non standard stuff to help with this but in the process put our own "round one's" on the block.
One of the biggest issues I have is that we as APP controllers have no en-route holding facility inside our airspace and are not allowed to have control over the planes in the hold.

Thus we can not shorten the hold or even take the guys out of the hold that might be in a better position for the sequence (not always the lowest in the hold) out of the hold.
We have to co-ord everything and this means a huge amount of work on both sectors. Another problem with the hold is that the profile goes out the window and that when you come out the hold sometimes you are so high that "Scenic Vectors" is needed to fit you into the sequence again.

This forum is what we need to get a better understanding of all the issues we are faced with on either side of the coin. Our managers just deal the cards and we have to play them, but they are holding all the ACE's. It would be great if we could have more pilots at our ATC meetings (it would also be great to have more ATC's at those meetings too) so your concerns can also be voiced.

It is however my believe that a couple of beers and forums like these will do a lot more than our Boss'es will achieve in a Million meetings.
Area guys let's get together for a couple of cold ones.(you may buy the first 10 rounds) so we can see Eye to I and "bury the hatchet" that was put there by our Danish friend. You guys deserve the rise and thanks for the great job!

ANSA please ask your fellow countryman (the xmas guy) to lighten up and smile now and again!

[longsleep]

and we both saw each others work place

In a lot of places around the world this is still possible, just ask!
That's my experience

The only hard part is.....
You have to leave the bar in time not to oversleep the wake-up call ;)

[Nimmer]

118.75 request show!!! I know 12L is a pain at the moment having to vacate left and cross the runway at N4. But believe me it is as much as a pain for us at the moment aswell, so if you are parking at the Tango bays or Golf bays then expect to vacate left. If possible then we let you roll to the end, however Dubai is busy so the chances are fairly slim.

Its like all the requests we are receiving, if we can do it we will, ATC is trying to provide the best service they can, and to be honest when you hear a busy frequency a stupid request can annoy!!!

For the record if we let all aircraft vacate right then the standard gap on final would have to be 15 miles!!!!!

[quarefellah]

Nimmer,
Whilst we are on the subject of N4 crossings, how about letting traffic continue on to N2 to cross there as well/instead? I know this is not always possible if you have outbounds K1 and M but the traffic in DXB is often very 'one way' i.e. all arrivals/deps at the same time!! My reasoning is based on what happened the other morning. Approaching N4 to cross but traffic still out on finals so would be holding at N4 until he passed. If allowed to continue on to N2 to cross there then the waiting time would be much less and possibly frees up N4 for the traffic taxying in behind??

Also, is it just me or are there 'good days' and 'bad days' on Arrivals and Departures. Just this morning departed @ 0130 local, only aircraft in the sky (yes, that includes SHJ and arrivals) and flew the whole bloody SID until transferred to UAE who cleared us to PAPAR direct. On return sector the guy on Arrivals had ALL his ducks in a row and was getting aircraft in to 30R like it was going out of fashion. The contrast was striking

[03Rnow30R]

Unfortunately I have to agree. Just as you get guys that can and want to fly the machines and others that prefer to do absolutely everything by the numbers, you get ATC's that are the same. It will be the same all over the world. Glad you had a good experience on the return anyway.

I will let Nimmer answer you on the N2 question. I get lost between the crew gate and the tower.

[Nimmer]

N2 is perfectly possible, all depends on wether the air and ground controllers are being flexible!!! As you said, "good and bad days"!!!

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

Quote" Now for the good news, all of our bad R/T problems have been taken care of, rumour has it that some some our new pilots who's english was not quite as we would like it, have been sent for elocution lessons.

Just goes to show the quatily (or not) of pilots we are recruiting. QED. :sad:"

You guys should see the controllers that have come to check out working in Dubai! It'll be great! Neither the Pilot or controllers will speak english!

And for the record, RAK sucks!!! Thank god a RAK tower controller working(sleeping) at 12am gets paid the same as me whist I practise "tite sphixteritis" in arrival at 12am... yeah, seeeeeee ya!