124,9 New request radio show
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124,9 New request radio show
Did I miss the Notam on 124,9 being changed into a request radio show?
Ever since Dubai has gone single runway ops we have had more requests for non-standard thing than before:
* "can we maintain high speed?"
* "can we slow down?"
* "can we fly minimum clean speed?"
* "any possibility of landing on 30 if 12 is in use and landing 12 if 30 is in use?"
* "can we have a shortend approach?"
* if asked to reduce to a certain speed - "can't we rather maintain ... knots?"
* "request routing direct ......."
* "request futher climb"
* "request futher descent"
* "what is the type of aircraft ahead of us?"
* "what is our number in sequence?"
* request this
* request that
HERE ARE SOME OF MY REQUESTS
* Use your full callsign
* comply with speed restrictions (we have radar and can see when you lie to us)
* Please give your exact altitude passing on first contact
* I do not want to know how many passangers you have on board
* Listen out on frequency
* Do not respond to another aircraft's callsign
* Please give complete readbacks
* Comply with the climb gradient as published and advise us if you can not comply
Thank you
Ever since Dubai has gone single runway ops we have had more requests for non-standard thing than before:
* "can we maintain high speed?"
* "can we slow down?"
* "can we fly minimum clean speed?"
* "any possibility of landing on 30 if 12 is in use and landing 12 if 30 is in use?"
* "can we have a shortend approach?"
* if asked to reduce to a certain speed - "can't we rather maintain ... knots?"
* "request routing direct ......."
* "request futher climb"
* "request futher descent"
* "what is the type of aircraft ahead of us?"
* "what is our number in sequence?"
* request this
* request that
HERE ARE SOME OF MY REQUESTS
* Use your full callsign
* comply with speed restrictions (we have radar and can see when you lie to us)
* Please give your exact altitude passing on first contact
* I do not want to know how many passangers you have on board
* Listen out on frequency
* Do not respond to another aircraft's callsign
* Please give complete readbacks
* Comply with the climb gradient as published and advise us if you can not comply
Thank you
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judging from the posts here recently, there are a few cranky controllers in dubai these days. having said that, thanks for being the most professional bunch in the gulf region.
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Nothing to do with DXB single runway ops. With the huge demand of drivers in the region, the ridiculous T+C's and the abysmal treatment endured by local managements, the capable guy's say "no thanks". Both by not showing up and by leaving. So it's just the clown factor increasing, as the new planes are still beeing crewed.
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Desertrose has a lot of valid request mine is a lot easier!
I would like: Confirmend rebate tickets for the Rugby in France and the Soccer in Germany the odd upgrade on Flights to Europe and responsible driving on the Zheikh Zayed road. Oh!!! and the same increase as the boys at the DCA and Abu Dhabi.
What........... I can not !!!!
Well please leave your request after the beep.
All our controllers are busy right now but please continue to hold! ring ding the ding ding ding ding la la la laaa..............
I would like: Confirmend rebate tickets for the Rugby in France and the Soccer in Germany the odd upgrade on Flights to Europe and responsible driving on the Zheikh Zayed road. Oh!!! and the same increase as the boys at the DCA and Abu Dhabi.
What........... I can not !!!!
Well please leave your request after the beep.
All our controllers are busy right now but please continue to hold! ring ding the ding ding ding ding la la la laaa..............
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While we have some of you chaps from our Air Traffic Service Unit, can you explain to me why we need to be separated both horizontally and vertically from virtually ALL traffic. Is it just a case of "to be sure, to be sure".
Don't get me wrong I do sympathise with you regarding some of the dumber rules our regulator thrusts upon you.
Finally did I mention that the airlines and aircraft are actually the customers for your service and it would seem reasonable to be allowed to make the odd request.
Don't get me wrong I do sympathise with you regarding some of the dumber rules our regulator thrusts upon you.
Finally did I mention that the airlines and aircraft are actually the customers for your service and it would seem reasonable to be allowed to make the odd request.
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Rus
It's guys like you we would love to see in the center. You obviously have no idea what goes on here. Oh, and we do provide vertical and horizontal some times because not everybody seems to do what they are told around here! These will be guys that have learned through burned fingers. First part of providing the SERVICE is to be SAFE. If you want to clog up the frequency with your requests, be our guest. Just remember that next time you go straight through the loc as somebody hogs the R/T with the request for something. To the guys with productive posts, thanks.
It's guys like you we would love to see in the center. You obviously have no idea what goes on here. Oh, and we do provide vertical and horizontal some times because not everybody seems to do what they are told around here! These will be guys that have learned through burned fingers. First part of providing the SERVICE is to be SAFE. If you want to clog up the frequency with your requests, be our guest. Just remember that next time you go straight through the loc as somebody hogs the R/T with the request for something. To the guys with productive posts, thanks.
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Seaman Stayens
Thank you so much for your translations! It put a 
on my face!
I think it is a great idea for the pilots to come visit the ATC centre! Not just a visit but to sit for at least a hour and listen out on frequency during peek periods (which unfortunetly is round-about midnight)
I think a lot of our flying friends are unaware of all the restrictions/limitations that are put on ATC. Like the most recent instruction from the GCAA that we have to provide 15nm spacing on final for 30R if aircraft (parked on the northern side) requires full lenght departure. So if you are number 3 in sequence you are looking at a whooping 45nm final......
So..... bye-bye to the following requests:
* high speeds
* own speeds
* direct Lovol
* opposite runway landing
* can we slow down
* ect, ect, ect....
I think it is great to have a forum like this where we can chat and have more of an understanding of each others work
Thank you so much for your translations!
It put a on my face!I think it is a great idea for the pilots to come visit the ATC centre!
Not just a visit but to sit for at least a hour and listen out on frequency during peek periods (which unfortunetly is round-about midnight)I think a lot of our flying friends are unaware of all the restrictions/limitations that are put on ATC. Like the most recent instruction from the GCAA that we have to provide 15nm spacing on final for 30R if aircraft (parked on the northern side) requires full lenght departure. So if you are number 3 in sequence you are looking at a whooping 45nm final......
So..... bye-bye to the following requests:
* high speeds
* own speeds
* direct Lovol
* opposite runway landing
* can we slow down
* ect, ect, ect....
I think it is great to have a forum like this where we can chat and have more of an understanding of each others work
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desertrose, you been stuck in the sand to long. The spacing for finals were dictated by Dubai DCA, why not tell them about the 20nm spacing required from the other side?
Great postings guys
Cat out
Great postings guys
Cat out
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I really do think as pilots we need to "put up" or "Shut up", we are not ATC controllers us much as we like to think we are, "desertrose" has explaned the reasons why we appear to be dicked around coming in and out of DXB and it's not their fault.
As someone said a couple of replies ago, just listen to the p1ss poor R/T coming from some of our aircraft, some of the idiots shouldn'd be aloud anywhere near a radio transmitter and it's all down to the quality of pilots we are recruiting these days, and some of the crap ones we already have!!! We need to get our own house in order before we start telling ATC what they should be doing.
Anyone landing at midnight last night, holding at Desdi? Thought the guy running tower did at pretty swish job getting A/C up and down with only one runway. " cleared immediate T/O". "expect late landing clearance"."cross 12L". All very good.
Thanks ATC...........
PS.... would be happy for a peak period visit to listen to "some" of our stupid pilots.
As someone said a couple of replies ago, just listen to the p1ss poor R/T coming from some of our aircraft, some of the idiots shouldn'd be aloud anywhere near a radio transmitter and it's all down to the quality of pilots we are recruiting these days, and some of the crap ones we already have!!! We need to get our own house in order before we start telling ATC what they should be doing.
Anyone landing at midnight last night, holding at Desdi? Thought the guy running tower did at pretty swish job getting A/C up and down with only one runway. " cleared immediate T/O". "expect late landing clearance"."cross 12L". All very good.
Thanks ATC...........
PS.... would be happy for a peak period visit to listen to "some" of our stupid pilots.
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Oh boy, well you ask a reasonable question......, funnily enough just like what started this thread.
Well it works both ways, maybe if you did a few familiarity trips, you would understand some of our problems and frustrations.
As it happens I have been to your control center and many others round the world, including a very interesting weekend spent at Gatwick approach. The separation question was a serious one, not a dig at you. Most other well developed ATSU's round the world either separate horizontally or vertically, rarely both. Yes it is safer to do both, just a lot less efficient. Numerous times I have been held between 5-10 miles abeam and 1000' separated from traffic to the point it has resulted in a rushed approach that loads up the crew and provides opportunities for error. and indeed the odd missed approach.
As I said before, I do understand that our regulator puts in place many restrictions on how you operate, however it would be fair to say we can be frustrated by these as we have seen much better systems elsewhere, as indeed you may have experienced more consistenly professional pilots elsewhere.
It's guys like you we would love to see in the center. You obviously have no idea what goes on here
As it happens I have been to your control center and many others round the world, including a very interesting weekend spent at Gatwick approach. The separation question was a serious one, not a dig at you. Most other well developed ATSU's round the world either separate horizontally or vertically, rarely both. Yes it is safer to do both, just a lot less efficient. Numerous times I have been held between 5-10 miles abeam and 1000' separated from traffic to the point it has resulted in a rushed approach that loads up the crew and provides opportunities for error. and indeed the odd missed approach.
As I said before, I do understand that our regulator puts in place many restrictions on how you operate, however it would be fair to say we can be frustrated by these as we have seen much better systems elsewhere, as indeed you may have experienced more consistenly professional pilots elsewhere.
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Puff, I pretty well agree with everything you have just said, however I still believe that there is a time and place for a reasonable request, in well phrased RT, with due consideration given to controller workload, TCAS information and level of traffic.
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Yes rus I too agree with you but, and there is always a but, not all of our pilot are asking for reasonable requests at reasonable times, and as always asking stupid question like, " what's the a/c type ahead", "What speed would you like".
Of course the company doesn't help matters with their stupid SOP's like not being able to accelerate below 5000ft on departure when told "No speed control" and flying at 278kts in the descent, (not that i do). Try that one in the London TMA!
It matters not what the A/C type ahead is, ATC will co-ordinate the traffic, not us, and you assume standard speed until otherwise told. Little things like that will help ATC alot
It's not difficult to be professional, it's what we are trained to do.
Take it easy.
Puff.
Of course the company doesn't help matters with their stupid SOP's like not being able to accelerate below 5000ft on departure when told "No speed control" and flying at 278kts in the descent, (not that i do). Try that one in the London TMA!
It matters not what the A/C type ahead is, ATC will co-ordinate the traffic, not us, and you assume standard speed until otherwise told. Little things like that will help ATC alot
It's not difficult to be professional, it's what we are trained to do.
Take it easy.
Puff.
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Rus.
We would love to do jumpseat rides with EK or anybody else around here, but we are not allowed to. We have had a thread before on the same topic. Regarding visits to the center, you are most welcome. I am trying to arrange one for somebody else at the moment. A visit isn't enough. A proper plug in and work with us to see our limitations too. We are aware of many of the problems you have as pilots, and this is the kind of thread that can help things even more. Give us specific gripes, and we can discuss your and our constraints.
Regarding the horizontal and vertical seperation. I take it from your example you were on a late downwind. The reason many guys use vertical AND lock you on a downwind heading, is that many a time somebody has not locked on the heading and commenced the turn as per the STAR towards the traffic on final. I promise you this happens more often than you think. Not me, I am sure you will say, but just think if you were the guy on final. Once again there is also the SJ traffic you may not be aware of coming off the opposite runway to DB underneath you or straight in head on below you. There is also a bit of restricted airspace that we are not allowed to descend you below 4000' on late downwind, just at the base turn, due to noise and serious doo-doo if we do do.
All I can add is that if you are not happy with the approach, or not able to do something, let us know so we can make another plan. We do try to provide you with a service. As with ATC's, some pilots are more competent than others. Today I may have a 777 ready to do a tight approach from 6 miles and quite high and tomorrow a different guy can't do the same thing. There is also no standard to the way different guys fly the same aircraft on the same approach. I am aware there are reasons for this, either technical or a tight rear ended Captain, etc. Just let me know if you can't do it!
I do have a question especially for the EK guys. We are getting a lot of wake sidestep requests these days. On downwind and in the climb-out, with the preceding 10 to 15 miles ahead. I have never experienced this before, any idea why or what is causing it here especially? Or is this common all over?
Cheers
We would love to do jumpseat rides with EK or anybody else around here, but we are not allowed to. We have had a thread before on the same topic. Regarding visits to the center, you are most welcome. I am trying to arrange one for somebody else at the moment. A visit isn't enough. A proper plug in and work with us to see our limitations too. We are aware of many of the problems you have as pilots, and this is the kind of thread that can help things even more. Give us specific gripes, and we can discuss your and our constraints.
Regarding the horizontal and vertical seperation. I take it from your example you were on a late downwind. The reason many guys use vertical AND lock you on a downwind heading, is that many a time somebody has not locked on the heading and commenced the turn as per the STAR towards the traffic on final. I promise you this happens more often than you think. Not me, I am sure you will say, but just think if you were the guy on final. Once again there is also the SJ traffic you may not be aware of coming off the opposite runway to DB underneath you or straight in head on below you. There is also a bit of restricted airspace that we are not allowed to descend you below 4000' on late downwind, just at the base turn, due to noise and serious doo-doo if we do do.
All I can add is that if you are not happy with the approach, or not able to do something, let us know so we can make another plan. We do try to provide you with a service. As with ATC's, some pilots are more competent than others. Today I may have a 777 ready to do a tight approach from 6 miles and quite high and tomorrow a different guy can't do the same thing. There is also no standard to the way different guys fly the same aircraft on the same approach. I am aware there are reasons for this, either technical or a tight rear ended Captain, etc. Just let me know if you can't do it!
I do have a question especially for the EK guys. We are getting a lot of wake sidestep requests these days. On downwind and in the climb-out, with the preceding 10 to 15 miles ahead. I have never experienced this before, any idea why or what is causing it here especially? Or is this common all over?
Cheers
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Never heard of a wake sidestep request either and considering the normal separation we get in Dubai, I would argue that its not needed.
My comments on 5-15 miles and 1000' of separation are really a combination of the downwind, intermediate descent and climb level off scenarios with both approach and area control. The 10 mile & 1000' separations are usually above 13,000'
There is no doubt the 6- 8000' downwind (usually because of a SHJ arrival) followed by a decent to 2000' and 7 mile final is the most challanging. Personally I love 'em, however they do require good situation & energy awareness to do consistently. Throw in a combination of fatigue and differing pilot-age skills and you have a recipe for go-arounds or worse. I have asked (and got) extensions of the downwind because I know that we have too much energy to achieve what the controller asks. This can be a tough call, potentially unnecessary and also a pain for the controller.
My comments on 5-15 miles and 1000' of separation are really a combination of the downwind, intermediate descent and climb level off scenarios with both approach and area control. The 10 mile & 1000' separations are usually above 13,000'
There is no doubt the 6- 8000' downwind (usually because of a SHJ arrival) followed by a decent to 2000' and 7 mile final is the most challanging. Personally I love 'em, however they do require good situation & energy awareness to do consistently. Throw in a combination of fatigue and differing pilot-age skills and you have a recipe for go-arounds or worse. I have asked (and got) extensions of the downwind because I know that we have too much energy to achieve what the controller asks. This can be a tough call, potentially unnecessary and also a pain for the controller.
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Personally rus I use 5nm or 1000ft but others ,with just cause use both.
Why?
Busy sequence, lots of stuff going on, vectors on a number of a/c. You have the {insert any airline here as has happened to most} on parallel vectors with slower/faster a/c both on unrestricted decent. Avert your eyes when flight progress strips given to you\checking other a/c on vectors\answering co-ord lines. When you look back you wonder what the
the {insert any airline name here} is doing going direct to a waypoint when should still be on vectors and where the hell your 5nm went. This you get to contemplate during your days off and your retraining for a mistake that someone else caused.
Why retraining? Well 5nm and 1000ft are the min std. If "deemed" necesary you should use more or multiple std's. Above situation has happened to most of us, the lucky ones were useing a back up std {ie vert} no sep loss, no retraining, just a up sequence.
Hope this helps understand why we are a bit careful at times.
Why?
Busy sequence, lots of stuff going on, vectors on a number of a/c. You have the {insert any airline here as has happened to most} on parallel vectors with slower/faster a/c both on unrestricted decent. Avert your eyes when flight progress strips given to you\checking other a/c on vectors\answering co-ord lines. When you look back you wonder what the
the {insert any airline name here} is doing going direct to a waypoint when should still be on vectors and where the hell your 5nm went. This you get to contemplate during your days off and your retraining for a mistake that someone else caused. Why retraining? Well 5nm and 1000ft are the min std. If "deemed" necesary you should use more or multiple std's. Above situation has happened to most of us, the lucky ones were useing a back up std {ie vert} no sep loss, no retraining, just a
up sequence. Hope this helps understand why we are a bit careful at times.
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Puff & Seaman
Thanks for sticking up for the boys&girls in the broom-closet also know as the Control room from where we provide our service. You can look for us on the airfield between the luggage trollies and outer Mongolia
It is not that we do not want you to visit us, it is just that we don't want you to laugh at our equipment and world class rest facilities.
Have to agree with SEAMANSTAYENS we will get a better deal flying with you than you visiting us, we have no button to press for drinks and we don't even get left overs let alone airline food!
Trying to keep a tight sequence running need the help of all the "BUTTS' in the air and on the ground. Like you rightly say there is always a but OR BUTT that can stuff it up really well for all. We had this little a hole the other day that did not comply with an instruction to turn left, the words for traffic was included in the transmission. They simply followed the SID and turned right.After then being told that they did not follow the instructions as given and acknowledged their only response was another request........."Any Speed restriction?" WTF
Now that I got that of my chest!
My request please tell me in time if you are going to need extra track miles, like 03r/30r said we don't know how heavy you are or how much of a tight A your captain is. And specially for my friends from the Sub continent, and South Asia, please decide before you get airboune who will do the radio work as I cannot hear a word you say, if you both call at the same time !
Good post thanks to the fly boys for trying to understand !
How about those upgrades????? 
Now any one requesting DCT NO SPEED?
Thanks for sticking up for the boys&girls in the broom-closet also know as the Control room from where we provide our service. You can look for us on the airfield between the luggage trollies and outer Mongolia
It is not that we do not want you to visit us, it is just that we don't want you to laugh at our equipment and world class rest facilities.
Have to agree with SEAMANSTAYENS we will get a better deal flying with you than you visiting us, we have no button to press for drinks and we don't even get left overs let alone airline food!
Trying to keep a tight sequence running need the help of all the "BUTTS' in the air and on the ground. Like you rightly say there is always a but OR BUTT that can stuff it up really well for all. We had this little a
hole the other day that did not comply with an instruction to turn left, the words for traffic was included in the transmission. They simply followed the SID and turned right.After then being told that they did not follow the instructions as given and acknowledged their only response was another request........."Any Speed restriction?" WTF Now that I got that of my chest!
My request please tell me in time if you are going to need extra track miles, like 03r/30r said we don't know how heavy you are or how much of a tight A
your captain is. And specially for my friends from the Sub continent, and South Asia, please decide before you get airboune who will do the radio work as I cannot hear a word you say, if you both call at the same time !Good post thanks to the fly boys for trying to understand !
How about those upgrades?????
Now any one requesting DCT NO SPEED?