Transformation in SA Aviation - going nowhere slowly (like this thread)

[Afriviation]

This is my first post in pprune, Aviation in SA has been in the hands of pale males from the beginning. Now 12 years after democracy it is sad to notice that the status quo is maintained. In a country with more than 45 million citizens, why is it that Aviation is controlled by a group making up less than 10% of the population?

More saddening is that any attempt by government to try and level the playing fields by bringing more non-pale pilots and other aviation professionals in the Airforce and Parastatals is met by heavy criticism in the media and forums like these. It seems that this group is very much greedy and they want to keep Aviation in their hands for as long as possible.

Well SA it's time to embrace change, it's time that all those groups that were excluded in professions like these are given a chance to participate in Aviation. I don't mean some tokenism where 1 or 2 non pales are placed as a lame attempt to show representivity, but a sustained programme which will see Aviation being shared proportionally amongst all the population groups in this country.

A friend of mine who replied to a thread lashing at transformation in this forum, told me of a sad story of being locked to post. Well I challenge the moderators of this forum to allow freedom of speech and a critical issue which affects every South African Aviator, Pale or not to be discussed openly.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[GormanInkarnati]

"why is it that Aviation is controlled by a group making up less than 10% of the population?"

Funny that - I thought SAA was controlled by the black govermunt??

GI

[SpootNICK]

Aaaaaaah, mmmmmmust fight the urge......................:uhoh:

breathe breathe breathe.

Hell, screw it. Will take a break to cool off.

This chump is just fishing.:suspect:

[surely not]

Surely it is this issue that BEE is supposed to be addressing?
It would have been dangerous and foolhardy to have disposed of the experienced staff and put in place people who were not trained or capable to carry out the responsibilities required of the position. Aviation is too serious a business to start messing around purely for politics. People die if mistakes are made.
Succession planning should see more non pale (whata quaint term:)) people being given the right experience to apply for senior positions, but I hope you are not suggesting they should get the position simply because of colour? It has to be fair for all, pale and non pale otherwise it is discrimination, when it should be the best person getting the position.

[SeeCharlie]

This should be a good thread to watch. Move over "Huey" this is going to take over.

Who controls the CAA?
Who controls SAA?

I wonder where I have been all the time. I thought everybody had been moaning like hell because of the BEE with these 2 organisations.

Lets sit back, watch and enjoy.............

[Mark J B]

All I can say is Afriviation "get a life!"

[Afriviation]

SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations. All the Senior Management (Flying) there is still very much pale and have been the architects of arrested development for non pales with much needed assistance from SAAPA.

Needless to say the little that had been done there has been at the insistence of the SA government. Show me 1 pale owned Aviation Company that has made similar initiatives with any significance.

C'mon SA, the cockpits of other countries are representative of those countries populations groups why not SA.

one talks of succession planning etc, 12 years on what has happenned in that front? If this was executed in any level, we should be seeing some level of representativity in the development arenas like flying schools and charter companies... In SA?? dream on.

[beechbum]

:rolleyes:
Yeehah........hold on Afriaviation this could get rough!!!! Where have you been? This has been discussed on numerous occassions!!! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
Be warned as there is a large can of whip ass coming your way:ok: :ok:

[surely not]

Afriaviation where are the non pale entrepreneurs startingtheir own flying schools or charter companies. You know the pales didn't have things handed to them by government decree these last 12 years, they took financial risks, some worked out OK others didn't.

So why have the educated and qualified non pales that you claim are in abundance and ready to take high responsibility not seized the moment and started their own businesses?

[GormanInkarnati]

Hey Afri!

If you cant hack it in SA today (where there is blatant discrimination against "pales" in the job market) you should just accept that you don't have it...the right stuff that is!

Be careful or you will be labelled a racist soon. I agree with one of the prevoius posters. There are thousands of BEE entrepeneurs out there, what stops them from opening a flight school or charter company??

GI

[Afriviation]

Non Pale enterpreneurs? well this word is is not well known amongst the non pale circles, probably because dads and moms, grand dads and grand moms worked for some pale farmer earning a measly salary because they were denied a good education and opportunities - ring a bell?

Let's not get into that though, the fact of the matter is everyone knows where we come from and for fairness sake, in the spirit of our newly found democracy, lets open the doors that were previously closed for the benefit of the citizens of this country.

For now nothing much has been asked from the Aviation Community by the government. There are laws and everyone chooses to ignore (affrimative Action, BEE etc). The government has imposed its own schemes in the companies it has direct control over. Unfortunately some of these resources have been missappropriated by those wanting to retain the status quo and the progress has subsequently been put into reverse thrust.

People must realise that as much as it would be ideal for non pales to start investing in their own development, this is not likely to succeed without some catalysts because the PLAYING FIELDS ARE SIMPLY NOT LEVEL.

[Phenomenon]

Afriviation,

There is one question I would like to pose to you and it might be touching on a sensitive subject but seeing as though you have absolutely no tact whatsover here is my relatively tactless question.

When are you going stop blaming white oppression for all your bad luck and start looking in your own backyard?

It is strange to me that even after 12 years of democracy and endless BEE oppertunities you still cannot make it??? It blows my mind.

And don't even start with that sh!t about SAA not welcoming non pales. I know of countless non pales who got into SAA with MINIMAL hours and then there are pales with 1000's and 1000's of hours who cannot get in because "they do not fall into the right demographic.

You know what, if I say to you what I really want to, I will definitely get banned from this site so I'm not going to give you the satisfaction.

Have a good day chum. :ok:

[GormanInkarnati]

Just googled "entrepeneur" with the following result.
"Bob Reiss, successful entrepreneur and author of Low-Risk, High-Reward: Starting and Growing Your Small Business With Minimal Risk, says: "Entrepreneurship is the recognition and pursuit of opportunity without regard to the resources you currently control, with confidence that you can succeed, with the flexibility to change course as necessary, and with the will to rebound from setbacks."
A key factor in Reiss's definition is that entrepreneurs undertake opportunities regardless of the resources the entrepreneur currently controls. I've known many people who say they'd love to start a business, but they just don't have the money to get started. Neither did many of history's greatest entrepreneurs like Michael Dell, who started his computer company in his college dorm room or Lillian Vernon, who started her mail-order business when she was a housewife looking for extra income. These successful entrepreneurs didn't start rich and successful. They ended rich and successful."

Based on the above definition of an entrepeneur I don't think your ancestors had the ability to be an entrepeneur (but you know this already)

As long as you have this attitude that every thing must be handed to you on a silver plate nothing will change.

The system is heavily stacked in your favour.

The question is - are you guys capable of being entrepeneurs???
GI

[4HolerPoler]

No-one will get banned or have their post removed unless they clearly cross the line of civil morality. This is a great forum to debate this subject; Afriviation has stated his grievance; you are free to dispute or support his position. Remember, the whole world is watching. Show them what's really happening down this end of the continent.

4HP

[JG1]

Afriviation, all I can say is, what everybody else thinks,
STOP TALKING KAK

[Afriviation]

I see this subject is arousing some rather strong emotions, resulting in personal attacks, that's not the intent. We have a problem in SA Aviation and it won't get resolved if we don't confront the issues and not the people. If you have to know I am one of the very few lucky non pales who have been the beneficiary of the Government interventions but I choose look beyond my personal circumstances and tackle the bigger picture.

SAA is the biggest player in SA Aviation and yes there has been some develoments there but the stats (embarrasing) still fall way short of any significant progress. The rest of the industry is a complete shame.

This is what the players in SA Aviation think of non pale aviators: quote

" Does the SAAF really think that the Zim instructors will make the grade? Maybe the reason for getting Zim instructors is so that they will pass all the students that are not making the grade!

I'm very curious to know if they will complete the conversion in only 35 flying hours????:confused: I hope someone will keep us up to date on there progress"

Yes that's right, if you're a non pale in Aviation in SA, the eyebrows are raised everywhere and it's a matter of " he won't make it until he proves us otherwise" whereas when it comes to a fellow pale " he will make it until he proves us otherwise" in the case of a fellow pale every possible assistance will be afforded to them to make the grade or for their entire flying careers even if they are they most useless pilots.

So you will agree with me that beacuse of these prejudices, it is going to be very difficult for most non pales to get anywhere in Aviation in SA.

And shame for the very few of them who are there, they have to endure the daily torment of being labelled getting it the easy way and affirmative action appointees, well they haven't. If their fathers were millionaires and had aeroplanes and huge bank accounts they would also be counted in the thousands of jobless pilots with thousand of hours.

The least the pales can do is to support government in their attempts to redress the past and stop lambasting their efforts. At the end of the day it's beneficial for the socio-economic situation of the country.

[Phenomenon]

Firstly... JG1, best reply so far on this thread! :ok:

Secondly... Afriviation, I just want to add that I know numerous non pale professional pilots who are senior to me in position and in experience and I respect them for that reason and they deserve that respect.

BUT... it is because of dense backwards people like you who keep holding on to the past that South African avation is going nowhere slowly as you put it.

[SpootNICK]

Am I too late..........?:confused:

Have all my fellow PPruners cut Afriviations B#lls off??

Hope not, I was hoping to have a swing.

Afri,

I am going to take a long shot here and try sum up your current situation.
(Please correct me if I am wrong.)

1)Your either unemployed, or in a job you dislike immensely.

2)Have somewhere along the line been discriminated against because of your colour/sex etc

3)Feel you are owed something by the South African aviation industry because of all the injustice thats taking place.

GUESS WHAT CHUM......YOUR NOT THE ONLY ONE.

So do us all a favour.....take a second look and grow up. This debate has been going on for as long as I can remember, and ever so often some nose-miner decides to upset the applecart. :yuk:

SN

[JG1]

Now that I have got that off my chest....I feel much better.

And calm enough to offer some rational thought on the subject.

I can name a pale owned company who is committed to employing non-whites - Solenta.

As others have pointed out, SAA is black-owned and managed.

Afriviation, show me a black pilot who's out of work. Especially one with half decent hours.

'SAA belongs to the people of South Africa, every other department in there is making steady progress to transform, but not Flight Operations.'

So do you want to now put the hands of a huge international airline in the hands of someone who has not got the experience and thereby the qualifications to run it?? I sure Khaya would ensure that if there were a non-white person who could do the job he would be in it.

Afriviation, now I have really calmed down. So tell me, why aren't there enough black pilots around, that SAA is having to hire whites again? I shall tell you why. Because the ANC governements reform initiatives have benefited only an elite few whose sons could have been pilots had they chose to have been before transformation in any case. The general black population has not benefitted much.

So speak to your MP (if you can find him/her) and ask him/her to go to Parliament, and press them to do some proper research on the subject instead of devoting all their time deciding which hat to wear to Parliament, and get them to right things at the bottom.

Tell him/her to applaud the fact that the average black familiy has benefitted in the form of a new tap and some free electricity, and for that they are very grateful, but when please can they get a good enough job so that they earn enough to spend R1/4 mill on putting their son through flight school?

And in the meantime can Tokyo maybe make a few bursaries available?

[Deskjocky]

Afri,

Sounds like you got into SAA, well done. If you are so passionate about uplifting you fellow man, may I ask what you have personally done? why dont you reach into your pocket and sponsor a youngster's PPL and give him/her a start in aviation? or is it just up to everyone else to make a difference? talk is cheap.

[Afriviation]

If you grow up in a proper home with adequate meals, sanitation and was provided with a good education you have a good chance of being a succesful enterpreneur. Tell me of 1 pale enterpreneur who grew up in orange farm or soweto or Winnie Mandela squatter camp. Well there are a countless non pales who are now millionaires and billionaires.

The point is if as many non pales had equal opportunities as the pales had yes, the notion of hiring the best person for the job would be appropriate.
but every South African who knows anything about our history will tell you that even now in 2006 there's are more non pales living in those very conditions as there were before liberation.

I'm not a politician I'm an aviator, I would like to see more non pale aviators in this country so I can hear more of these indigenous accents on the ATS frequencies and talk about some mutual interest in overseas layovers.

[JG1]

'he won't make it until he proves us otherwise'
__________________________________________

The blacks brought this on themselves. If it weren't for affirmative action, then black pilots would not be viewed as 'tokens', and 'only got the job cos he's black' etc. One of my best mates is a Kenyan, theres no doubt he is one of the finest flyers I have ever met...and he got in on merit, and no-one ever doubted that even once, not once.

Again, refer to your MP. Subject this time : Affirmative Action

[JG1]

And why do we doubt the Zim instructors???

Because Zim is in a shambles!!! They can't even fill my aircraft with jet fuel.
How could these instructors possibly be as current as possible?

And why should we want some 'not as current as possible' instructors instructing our trainees??

When they will have to fly some aircraft we have just paid R20 BILLION for??

Get a grip. Its not because they are black, its because they are SUSPECT because they come from a SUSPECT airforce in a country run by a SUSPECT government.

Afri, you obviously have a deep seated feeling of being slighted by whites...

[Deskjocky]

Nope JG, Afri is very well balanced...he has a chip on both shoulders:}

[beechbum]

As I mentioned to you Afri,brace yourself......don't presume and make profound statements thinking that every pale pilot out there had millionaire fathers supporting them through their aviation careers. Many of us,myself included toiled long and hard to achieve the position where we are now.
Not once did I expect anything to be delivered on a plate. But like so many affirmative appointees,they DEMAND and want everything for nothing because they have been so hard done by.Work for it and show everyone that you deserve it. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I think Afri you have a lot of thinking to do and realise that Rome wasn't built in a day.......it will happen.......but also.... very slowly:ok: :ok:

[JG1]

Afriviation, yes, it does look like you are working for SAA.

'I would like to see more non pale aviators in this country so I can hear more of these indigenous accents on the ATS frequencies and talk about some mutual interest in overseas layovers.'

Whats wrong with talking about such things with your white colleagues? Are we not good enough? Are you one of these blacks who keeps to his own kind, despite, ignored attempts by them to include you?? Are you, Afriviation, one of those whom you despise so much - a RACIST?

So you get into SAA, the easy way, and now are not satified with that, no, now you have to moan (probably after not being rostered according to your demands) about the Ops staff not being black too??

Afriviation, maturity lies well before you...

[JetWSH]

Afriviation - :mad: :mad:

Im not even on the continent anymore but the reverberations from this thread has shaken the ground under my feet. It is because of BULLSH!T policies favouring "non pales" in SA, that myself and others have to go look for jobs abroad. Luckily we've found positions much better than SAA and it's a pleasure knowing that the employment policies practised in SA won't rape us out here.

I dont want to understand why you feel the way you do or debate a topic which a non-pale will never fathom anyway. BUT, I would like to say that I am confident that even if SAA's demographic numbers were 100% in favour of blacks, it will be a matter of (short) time before it ends up like the rest of the African Airlines. Want to debate that!? Show me one succesful airline in Africa other than SAA that has an excellent safety record, well maintained aircraft and well trained crew recognized by ICAO and IATO. You say Ethiopian and Kenyan Airways? Perhaps because they have PALES in flight operations departments.

And don't come with BS saying that non-pales in general can not afford self sponsored flight training. There are plenty of wealth amongst non-pales in SA to look after their own type. :mad: :mad:

[JG1]

and, anyway, I am not 'pale', you insubordinate little sh1t. I am white.

You are probably pale - when you are flying an ILS to minima.

[Afriviation]

No one is asking any pale Aviation Company to pay for any non pale trainee or hire any black qualified pilot. That would be a foolish request judging from their willingness to share with others in the lhistory of this country.

Accept that this is a multi racial country and the government has to do what they have to strike some kind of balance in this polarised financial situation. The reason I am referring to a financial situaton is because Aviation is Money and there's no way most non pales can afford even going solo in a cherokee.

As for Zim Instructors and the like, well I'm sure the Government is frustrated by the pale instructors who keep on frustrating their efforts by failing the non pale students and wasting taxpayers money as the responses in this thread clearly show, non pales are not yet welcome in SA cockpits.

JG1, in most of them I have no concept of the topics being disccussed. A lot of Captains I've flown with would discuss a racial topic and I would have to swallow even though I know that it is innapproriate but I am not about to risk my ccrediblity by arguing with them
But obviously that's not a critical motive for my post.

I am sick and tired of the SA Aviation Community who are always moaning about Nhlanhla Dube, SAA Cadets failing interviews, Black people at the SACAA, Zim Instructors, affirmative action and the like whereas they are still a majority in this industry. Instead of helping out and being part off the solution and help getting this industry to grips with the new dispensation.

[beechbum]

It seems that some "Pale" individual at SAA ops pissed on your battery this morning and is this your way of getting back Afri?Get on with it,grow up and realise that it's reality out there.........man this yanks my chain!!:bored: :bored:
"I am sick and tired of the SA Aviation Community who are always moaning about Nhlanhla Dube, SAA Cadets failing interviews, Black people at the SACAA, Zim Instructors, affirmative action and..."
And the reason Afri is because they are USELESS.......bottom line........face the facts.

[Afriviation]

For the benefit of those around the world who have been feeling sorry for the pales in this country, you don't have a reason to, they make up more than 95% of the Aviation Professionals (Pilots, Engineers) whilst they represent less than 10% of the total population and they moan like hell.

[Phenomenon]

"Government is frustrated by the pale instructors who keep on frustrating their efforts by failing the non pale students and wasting taxpayers money"

I really hate to burst you bubble but the white instructors can not be expected to just pass black students. Here are just a few examples that should show you why they failed.

* A certain duo of black cadet pilots flew a Cherokee 180 into a bloody sand dune and ripped of the main gear because they could not judge their height. And then they tried to blame it on a bad landing. :}

* Another black pilot from another cadet scheme landed a Cherokee 180 with the parkbrake on resulting in quite an interesting doughnut on the runway and she said she confused the parking brake with the flaps??? :sad:

* When yet another black cadet got into an aircraft for the first time, her words was: "What are all these clocks doing here? I don't want to read time... I just want to fly."

Do I really need to go on?

They are not failed because they are black and they will not be passed because they are black. They are failed because they cannot fly a bloody aircraft!!!

[Felix04]

Afriviation,

"Accept that this is a multi racial country and the government has to do what they have to strike some kind of balance in this polarised financial situation. The reason I am referring to a financial situaton is because Aviation is Money and there's no way most non pales can afford even going solo in a cherokee"

"I really hate to burst you bubble but the white instructors can not be expected to just pass black students. Here are just a few examples that should show you why they failed.

* A certain duo of black cadet pilots flew a Cherokee 180 into a bloody sand dune and ripped of the main gear because they could not judge their height. And then they tried to blame it on a bad landing.

* Another black pilot from another cadet scheme landed a Cherokee 180 with the parkbrake on resulting in quite an interesting doughnut on the runway and she said she confused the parking brake with the flaps???

* When yet another black cadet got into an aircraft for the first time, her words was: "What are all these clocks doing here? I don't want to read time... I just want to fly"


Do you want to know what the sad part of this whole story is. Is that the above mentioned posts is black individuals whom had the opportunity, but they do not seem to have a passion for it or the ability.

Go and look at most of the flying clubs around the country and show me how many of the BEE canidates mans the desk at the flying schools for a hours worth of flying. There is a lot of white canidates doing that that has a passion for aviation.

I'ts unfortunate but we are in a situation where a lot of these canidates expects it to be given to them without having to work their ars off for it.

Once again this is not an unsubstatiated comment that I am sucking out of my thumb. Go and talk to the people at the "grass roots" level.

I think that you have lost track of reality, with regard to the current situation

I'm glad that I don't work for the same company as you.
If there's likeminded individuals with the arrogance you are displaying at the
moment, such a company is only heading in one direction.

[JG1]

Afriviation, glad you are back.

'The reason I am referring to a financial situaton is because Aviation is Money and there's no way most non pales can afford even going solo in a cherokee.'

Don't want to burst your bubble, but there's no way most whites can afford even going solo in a Cherokee, either.

As others have pointed out, they worked their butts off to become pilots. I know some who waitered and blew all their tips & wages for the month on ONE lesson. We weren't all handed it on a plate.

The last thing my father ever gave me was a Chopper bicycle on my 8th birthday.

Ja, and in case you haven't noticed, we ALL moan. Its not just a white thing.

As far as evening out the financial balance....next time you drive, have a look in most of the over-R500k cars you see on the road - 90% black drivers.

Their sons don't want to become pilots, they are too busy making millions in BEE!!! in fact, Afri, you must look like a bit of a loser to a lot of your peers....they are driving BMW645i's and raking in millions...you are just a boy pilot..!:{

Again - off to your MP. Once you are past the ML430 and the X5 in the driveway you can ask him/her why you got nobbed into such a kak job when you were supposed to be liberated.

[Afriviation]

Oh My I like this, the more you are trying to debate the subject, the more you're exposing your own prejudices.

JG1 sorry baas, your humble servant didn't mean to hurt your feelings I am now becoming more enlightened to challenge you in reconising that I too have talents just like you and given the opprtunity I'll probably demonstrate better operations and landings than you could ever imagine.



Not once did I expect anything to be delivered on a plate. But like so many affirmative appointees,they DEMAND and want everything for nothing because they have been so hard done by.Work for it and show everyone that you deserve it. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I think Afri you have a lot of thinking to do and realise that Rome wasn't built in a day.......it will happen.......but also.... very slowly:ok: :ok:

I ain't waiting until my Great Grand Children see the fruits of the liberation, the time is now and something has to be done NOW. You have to plant the seeds, where are these planted in SA Aviation today?

Phenomenon, You talk of black student that have been in aircraft prangs and demonstrated a lack of undertsanding about Aviation, well yes what do you expect from our background. The policies of the previous government were to ensure that we do not become anything but cleaners, carpenters Bantu education teachers etc. Well you know what, despite all those barriers non pales have in their little way managed to break out. It is not acceptable that these talented people are stiffled to this very day and not be allowed to reach their full potential
On the other hand, how many pale students havee pranged aircraft in the military and civillian aircraft. But these don't get media coverage because it's Ok for them to have accidents. But non pales are so much in the spotlight that even when they sneeze it has to make headlines.

What is expected of a non pale in South Africa " Kom hierso seun was my kar" or "Maak my tuin" if a non pale shows any signs of assertiveness or confidence he is referred to as having an attitude problem or a chip on his shoulder and therefore not pilot material, probably because he'll challeged the Captain when he's about to screw up. I believe I have chips on both I'm proud.

"As others have pointed out, they worked their butts off to become pilots. I know some who waitered and blew all their tips & wages for the month on ONE lesson. We weren't all handed it on a plate."

That is true, however generally you will now that some if not most of your compatriots had Daddy paying directly or indirectly and Oh how can I forget then there's the thousands who received their flying training from the military - "gratis" When the very same thing is done for non pales Oh it's so unfair, Silver platters, Shame on you.

Even If A non pale can get a job as a waiter they probably have 3 brothers and SIsters to support, nieces and nephews. You know the thing about non pales they are very supportive of their family structures even if it means sacrificing the little bit they have.

[JG1]

Ja well Afri, if I was a cleaner or a garden boy then I would make sure I didn't have six children.

[JG1]

"JG1 sorry baas, your humble servant didn't mean to hurt your feelings I am now becoming more enlightened to challenge you in reconising that I too have talents just like you and given the opprtunity I'll probably demonstrate better operations and landings than you could ever imagine."
----------------------
I very much doubt that, but I will humour you. I recognise that you have talents. Maybe not as much talent as someone who had to work their way up the hard way, on contract in the Congo, Afghanistan, Angola etc, but you got your PPL and passed your Comm exams. And you can do a bit of radio work, one would hope. You are sitting as P3 in a long-haul aircraft, where lots of others dream to be. So you have been given the opportunity.

So lets see you demonstrate a little maturity and see the world from a more balanced perspective. Put your past behind you and look to your future. At the moment, things are going so well for you that the only one who can cock it up is you.

[beechbum]

"I ain't waiting until my Great Grand Children see the fruits of the liberation, the time is now and something has to be done NOW. You have to plant the seeds, where are these planted in SA Aviation today?"

You see there you go again.....I DEMAND....,.....I want it now.
Well Afriman it ain't going to happen NOW.....so get off your high horse and come back to earth.....,.bump....,..thud.....:p

[putco]

l don't post much at all but...

l am surprised how many of you lads have let this dope get up your noses.

Let's face it Haiti has been independent 200 years and they still don't have tarred roads or running water. Pales have take half of that to start flying, get someone to the moon and be where we are now.

Afri is the one with the biggest headache amongst us guys. He KNOWS that he is useless but worst of all for him, and this is the peanut, he KNOWS that the world knows, he is useless! That must be devastating.

Take care All, fambai zvakanaka...:ok:

[beechbum]

Putco,
Well said...but then again he's too useless to realise all of this.
Like I said before some sort of hev at Saa pissed on his luggage so he's just getting his own back.

[Afriviation]

Now JG1 from your last response, this is the problem that makes this unfair system work. Most non pales when they get to positions make good money and think the world is their oyster they shut up and relax, whereas they can see that things are not the way they're supposed to be. The goverement is also probably fooled by the token appointments that have been made and hence their lax approach in insisting to enforce transformation laws. Well the picture is far from looking right.

I am not one of them and will not shut my mouth when something is going horribly wrong.

The notion of non pale pilots getting things the easy way is totally skewed. If it were not for these schemes there wouldn't be as much lack pilots as there are today, not because they are lazy but because Aviation is expensive more so for someone living in poverty.

Not everyone who has money wants to be a pilot and not everyone who wants to be a pilot has money in response to the writer who referred to rich black people. By the way the majority of wealth in this country is still in pale hands jduging by the number of pale owned businesses, land, aircraft, Mines, property etc. Some of thee non pales may be driving these cars but it does not mean that they are wealthyor the cars belong to them, The writer who referred to most non pales driving luxurious cars forgets that some if not most of them are probably driving for the baas or are fronting in some doctored BEE scheme.

SA the time has come to relax on the grip in Aviation, let some of the Sons and Daughters of your Gardners, House Maids and Nannies take part in this fun filled and lucrative careers, They were good to you after all some of them raised you and even taught you a word of Isizulu and Sesotho.

[saywhat]

Sad part is that I agree with both sides. Afriaviation has a point, there has to be some form of transformation in the industry if we as a nation are going to succeed. The main problem that I see is that there are too few black pilots coming through the system. Almost all the black pilots that I see have come through a sponsored scheme, which causes animosity amongst those who who could not get the free training. (read whites) These same pilots who could not be sponsored have spent many piggy banks of money learning to fly, yet, now find themselves in a position where they battle to find jobs.
The fact that there are stories out there about how badly black pilots fly is unfortunate. Most of these stories are without doubt untrue.
The saddest part is that if I am right, and both sides do have a valid gripe, how does one correct the situation? I unfortunately do not have the answer.
In closing,to answer Afriaviations previous post, Tony Factor I believe came from a very poor backround, and only had a basic education. He became VERY rich and successfull. If I am wrong, I apologise, as this fact, like the stories of the black pilots inability to fly is based purely on hearsay, and may in fact be a myth. I hope not, as it was a good story that gave a lot of people hope.

[Felix04]

You must be a family member of one of our neighbouring countries presidents. Both of you share the same vision.
Reality check, look at the current predicament he finds himself at the moment.

It's not understandable to me as how one person can have such a skewed vision of reality.

[JG1]

Oh, dear. If this one had another brain cell it would be lonely.

One wonders how he got through the personality tests.

Afri, you will certainly go far in life with an attitude like that....the further the better.

And somewhere there's a small rural village in zululand thats missing an idiot.:p

Afri, like I said right in the beginning, then......

[Phenomenon]

Do us all a favour Afri and grow up.

If you indeed feel so passionate about it stop bitching and moaning on a website, get of your arse and do something about it.

That's the problem with people like yourself... the words are there but your actions are lacking.

[boomslang]

Afriviation and all of the rest.

What you all have managed to do is just highlight the fact that we are all the same no matter what colour, creed or religion. Affirm we all kaked to get somewhere. Like Afri said he knows of pilots from his part of wherever that waitered to pay for a lesson. I know of pilots that slept in their cars or under aerie wings to get somewhere. Who cares what colour they were?

By the way Afri, my dad used to tell me to wash the car. Does this make me less priviledged than the other pales? No it makes what I did exactly the same as the other person, because that's how I earned my pocket money just as he did.

The bigger issue to address is the grass roots education and culture of aviation. Why do most people (note the lack of colour reference) fail in aviation? Because they see it as just another job, that's why. I can go to work at 8 and leave at 4 and earn thousands. Not so in real life. You cannot be involved in any form of aviation if you do not eet, sleep and drink aviation. That's how you get a mental understanding for aviation. And yes kids don't get a chance to be involved in aviation in Alex, Soweto and Mamelodi. But you might be surprised that this is also true for any suburb in the previously know as pale districts. What can be done I hear you say? This has already been started and is currently in motion, but need everyones involvment. What? Yes! Take the Young Eagles, Syandiza and Bring a girl child to work programs. The aviation seed has been planted in thousands of young people from all sectors of the community. And yes each and everyone of us that got a break in aviation should plough back into aviation as much as we can, to that I agree.

[mattman]

Well all hell has broken loose. I love this, why dont we ask this guy to quit his SAA thingy and come fly with us contract boys in the deep and darkest parts of the world.
Oh but wait have you got the time and rating for that hmmm, maybe you want to be captain ok , have you got 3000 total and a thousand on type and I mean on 200 and 1900 boetie.
Oh and almost forgot, no BMW and Mercs here boet just some bashed UN vans some lekker mozzies that love to make you feel you want to die and the food that never stays where it should, maybe the locals that constently point guns at you and make you feel so welcome.
You high in the clouds dude time to come back to ground level and the next time they reset the sim because you cant fly the old needles on your super advanced tv screen infront of you ,just remember there are guys way more experianced than you will ever be and I mean balck white pink and blue running aid and refugees around this Shiete continent we call Africa that you guys casually fly over.

I have good friends of all colour and nationalties that fly and I can promise you ,they all fly better than you.

[Afriviation]

Say What, you have the most objective and balanced response yet and I agree with you wholeheartedly there are problems both sides, However what disturbs the most is that the pales are always sounding to be the victims of an arrogant non pale government which is trying it's best to sort out the mess everyone has to agree is a challenging one particularly in our small Aviation Community.

There are people out there who are looking to secure Aviation Jobs for their sons and daughters and in the process use manipulative means to rid potential non pale pilots either through training or inflated training costs. for example why does SAA insist on using a particular school which is known to be expensive and is residential to train cadets where the same amount of money could be used to train double the cadets. Not every professional pilot in an airline today was trained from one particular school.

I also don't have an answer to solve this dilemma, all i know is that as long as there are sinister motives from some in the industry, there will never be progressive effort to a solution. We will always be in this tug of war wasting lots of energy and time creating a lot of frustration, heartache and disillusionment in the industry.

I don't want to speculate on the outcome if this thing ever reaches boiling point, could we ever find ourselves in the same boat as some disgruntled people like we had over the land issue in ZImbabwe?

Non pales are known to be very patient people but can be known to explode after a long spell of injustice.

The good thing about SA is that we have a sane Government, who have shown good cause to forgive and move on. But unfortunately the same cannot be said about some of it's citizens who find every possible avenue to criticise and go about their old ways which almost sent this country begging.

To some of the statements criticising some Governments in Africa, All I can say is that the greed of the west had everything to do with their demise and continues this very day.

AGAIN i'm no politician, lets work together to balance our Aviation industry. I'm sure we're the only African country that looks like it has their entire fleet of aircraft wet leased from Europe.

Most Pale resorts want to create an African experience and ambience, why cant the same be done for the cockpits. I'm sure there's a countless number of tourists to SA asking themselves the very same question? Why only pale pilots?

[beechbum]

"why does SAA insist on using a particular school which is known to be expensive and is residential to train cadets where the same amount of money could be used to train double the cadets. Not every professional pilot in an airline today was trained from one particular school.

Because dear aviation colleague, if you took the time to realise, it's the best!!!
And by no means a waste of money!!!!Your esteemed government is paying for it anyway so why are you so worried as to the expense of their (the cadets' training).
I think we should call you "agrivation" as man that is surely what you are causing with your dim view of most things aviation.
And as for the government being sane......huh pull the other one!!!Why do you think I call my location Gangsters Paradise....what does YOUR government do about that?
Man as one poster put it.......you speak a load of KAK

But one thing's for sure I gotta thank you for starting the thread, as you've kept me busy this afternoon....since the weather's been lousy at least I had something humorous and entertaining to read.
p.s. You don't drive or used to drive a white Volvo by any chance?.........Ummmmmmmm

[Speed Managed]

Afri
I find most of your comments very ignorant, arrogant and ultimately immature. I could go into a deep debate with you on the various issues you have raised however it would be a pointless waste of time!
Unfortunately, you are obviously one of my colleagues in SAA which is quite disconcerting. And judging by your level of understanding the value of experience you probably also a cadet P3 who never makes it 'downstairs at 6' to have a beer with us at overseas destinations. But if for some reason or another, YOU do decide, you are able to join your 'pale' colleagues I would love to discuss this with you further. Until then fly safe!

[Afriviation]

Yes my government is paying, at who's insistence? None of those guys at Flight Ops have an inclination to train more non pale Cadets, If they had they would have weighed their options and try and utilise the state's money more efficiently.
And can someone tell me something, Why is SAA still training pale females in the Cadet Scheme, When were they disadvantaged?

Beach bum i hope you don't suggest the Government is behind the Gangsters paradise phenomenon. My take on that, it's the very skewed socio-economic situation we find ourselves in this country and yes this thread is one of the many contributors to it.

The non pales are lagging behind the pales in material possessions and wealth, The situation is getting worse, the government has the mammoth task of treating the symptoms as well as the cause e.g affirmative action. The pales are protesting saying the non-pales are given things on a silver platter. Don't get me wrong I'm not condoning the acts of crime, I'm simply sayng open your eyes, see the bigger picture and perhaps you'll live a better life with a full understanding of what's happening around you.

As they say charity begins at home, maybe you'll see the need to support as you would that cute blonde student, a non pale student at your school and not fail them before they've even proven their worth. Who knows they might be your good Captain one day.

[Afriviation]

Well Speed managed it's probably easier to attack the individual rather than the issues, especially when they have a vaild point. You're probaly right we wouldn't get anywhere with any sort of discussion as you would probaby defend the status quo and attack me personaly like some of the writers in this forum.

I agree I am a bit immature in the issues of manipulating the system, blocking Government policy and excluding other groups, hence our disagreement on this subject. I also fail to see how non pales are categorised as substandard pilots, where has this been scientifically proven? Everyone knows Aviation training is a subjective game. If I want to fail you because You stink or I don't like you, I will find reason to.

The industry and certainly SAA is hiding behind experience to delay thr acceptance of non pales into the airline after graduation whereupon this is happening everywhere else in the world where trasnformation is an imperative. Why? This is against the provisions of the Employment Equity Act, go read it.

[beechbum]

Afriman.....it's beech as in aircraft and not as in sand if you could take five seconds to take your head out your arse!!!But then you probably wouldn't know what one of those was anyway!
When I condone the government and my location it is referring to the fact that nothing is done to combat such crime in our province or in fact the land we live in.
Anyway with reference to utilising the states money more efficiently.....,why use it at all? There are hundreds if not thousands of pilots with qualifications in the market place.......slightly pale....mind you... but ready and eager and willing to have as many beers as they can at "6".........AND you talk about wasting money!!!!!Try R50 million a year on training cadet pilots'.!!!!!!
And now you wonder why flight ops has no great inclination to train more........

[boyracer]

Just a question afri why has SAA not have one black instructor, why cant these fellas looking for a quickie do the instructor thing, Its because its to difficult, ie too much hard work...most of the black pilots were not appointed on merit so now the easy life and no doubt command will come soon so why work for it, ps SAA has women instructors and women are the minority in airways.

please not so much TAKE TAKE GIVE ME , but a little give would be nice:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Afriviation]

beechbum, you don't get it do you? let me put it in layman's terms for you: In South Africa there are 45 million people. Pales make up around 5 million of that. In this industry I'm in over 95% of professionals (Pilots and Engineers) are pale. The majority of the population is groslly under represented because they were denied opportunities in the past.

Now the Government has opened doors to redress the situation, but those pale people in control are still blocking other groups to enter.
When they talk Rainbow Nation you're probably one of those people who said fine, All the Pales in the professional occupations and the non pales in the gardens and Cleaning the houses and living together in harmony. No mate that was not the intent. If the Government does not spend this kind of money in developing non pale people then yes we'll have your ideal because it is going to take years before non pale people can accumulate wealth so as to be able to train their kids into becoming pilots.
The reason apartheid was fought was not only that people can vote but people can be liberated economically and restore their dignity.
In the bigger scheme of things, transforming Aviation would be a contributor to that economic liberation. This now applies to employment of pilots and ownership of Aviation enterprises.

If you want to leave in the past and say non pales can't be in the cockpit, then I'm sorry i disagree with you completely.

[JG1]

Afriviation, there was a good way to get SA on the right track in 1994, 12 years ago. And that was to immediately address the educution issue. there is only one way to get ahead in the world, and that is to get educated and qualified and start pulling your weight in the real world. In 12 years it was possible to get TWO university degrees!!

Passing laws favoring certain groups was proved to be a gross mistake under the apartheid government. What does the ANC government do?? The same silly thing.

Some money was allocated to education, and although some individuals looked upon this gift as their 'right' and started toyi-toyi on campus, lots of the beneficiaries are in good jobs today, helping to propel the SA economy on its path. And it's doing well.

Too much money was wasted on bullsh1t like expensive inaugurations, parties, renaming this city and that nature reserve. LOTS of money was wasted which could have been better spent on education. How many scandals, frauds etc has this government been involved in? How many freeloaders are on the gravy train? Get RID of them, get people in there who can DO THE JOB and SOME OF the squatters and the poor folk in the townships would be better off.

I say SOME OF because there are TENS OF MILLIONS of people living in poverty in SA. To subsidise them all would bankrupt the country. They have to pull themselves up. And the initial, most critical, part of that pulling themselves up is to vote the right people in who are going to care for them, not some selfish fat-cat who is going to line his own pockets.

Not everyone can afford to go to university. Not everyone can afford to train to be a pilot. Simple facts of life.

MOST South African blacks who are admittedly poor, and who do admittedly live in substandard accomodation, with substandard services, are still a hell of a lot better off than the majority of their cousins in the Congo, Mozambique, DRC, CAR, Nigeria, Guinea, Chad, Sudan...the list is exhaustive.

You do have a chip on your should against the white man, and sure, the apartheid policies were wrong. BUT. What he left your black government with to use and build upon was a damn good infrastructure and working systems.
And most whites stand shoulder to shoulder with you to build the place up and to get ahead, FAIRLY for everyone.

What we've seen you do is vote in a government which consisted of a lot of exiles who had never really held down a proper job in their lives now pop up and be MEC's, MP's and Ministers. And then you ignorantly re-vote them in simply because they were black/ANC. Just because we are white doesn't mean we will stand on your neck. We WILL help, we WILL be fair and we WILL get the job done.

But we don't like people getting jobs who are NOT ABLE to do them, because that just drags everyone down, including you.

I think the preferential hiring of white females is just as wrong as the preferential hiring of blacks. there should be NO PREFERENCE. Qualifications and experience should be the deciding factor.

Having said that I think that money should be PREFERENTIALLY ALLOCATED to the previously disadvantaged for their education so that they can better themselves and then enter the real world and start pulling their weight. If they screw up at university and don't get qualified, the only people it affects are themselves.

But to preferentially stick someone in a REAL WORLD job and then they screw up it adversely affects the real world and all who are a part of it.

comprehende?


So, vote for me next time :ok:

[boyracer]

Hey Guns where you mate we doing battle here and need HELP:} :}

[Afriviation]

boyracer you are clearly misinformed, As far as I know there is only one female Instructor at SAA, she is still a co-pilot. There are more pale female pilots than there are non pale pilots at SAA. However there are a couple of instructor rated non pale pilots at SAA. Maybe you can enlighten me as to why they are not appointed as Training pilots in line with the employment equity act. Oh off course there is a non pale Training Captain At SAA I believe he is also a DE.

[Romeo E.T.]

Afriaviation....2 points....who pissed you off! did you fail a check ride or a command evaluation or not get the promotion that you thought was DUE to you on the merit of your colour?

And secondly by the mere virtue that you have a computer and internet access and skills to fly and write posts on pprune means that you are now part of the advantaged group so affirmative action has worked for YOU and therefore dont you see it as your duty to instead of "ranting and raving" actually get up and use your new ADVANTAGED position and help out your fellow friends...UBUNTU

[beechbum]

beechbum, you don't get it do you?
Now that's calling the kettle black or is that non pale...to be politically correct.
Did we do badly in a sim check Afriman do bring out all of this?
Boyracer...gunns has up and left us. We need Mysticflyer.....he should set this boytjie straight!!!!!!!!!!!:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[boyracer]

Afri Im not talking NON PALE MALE instructors Im talking Black instructors there are no BLACK instructors in SAA:eek:

[Afriviation]

JG1 Your ideologies would be practical if we all had equal opportunities. Affirmative Action Was a means to give the non pales the 40 years headstart the pales had. So be realistic, if there was no preference hiring there would be no black pilots in SA today and the trend would continue for a very long long time.

You cannot for example compare a pale 18 yr old who just completed his Matric to a non pale in terms of mental development etc. The Pale grew up in the Suburbs with all the modern day luxuries Tous for mental stimulation etc. The non Pale grew up in Orange farm studying under candle Light and surviving on one meal a day if lucky.

Sad to Say this situation hasn't changed much in the last 12 years, So if government were to stand and watch, It would simply get worse. You probably heard that In SA The richer are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Thanks God for Affirmative Action, I'd probably be working in your hangar today washing your aeroplane.

[Afriviation]

My definition of black is Africans, indians, Coloured and Asian. certainly in all my arguments in this thread.

[boyracer]

By your argument should you not add women to your version of black;) ;) would love to stay but off to the pub cheers all ...good luck , ever heard of farting against thunder:{

[JG1]

So if I were a dark non-pale previously disadvantaged non-male of 18 would I have had less meals a day than a non-dark non-female advantaged pale of the same age? And after 12 years would a pale non-dark non-disadvantaged male then be more intelligent than a non-pale dark non-advantaged non-male or would he just be a bit fatter?:}

[Romeo E.T.]

And the reason that the poor folk are still stuyding by candle light in Orange Farm and similar is that your government would rather spend money on the deputy presidents holiday or on renaming the "non-political" name of JHB INTL at a cost of 5million? how many previously disadvantaged people could your goverment put through flight school for this , or proper SANDTON housing....but no......the gravy plane/train etc continues, and you have a rant and raving session

[beechbum]

If you want to leave in the past and say non pales can't be in the cockpit, then I'm sorry i disagree with you completely
Firstly I think regardless of how you feel,the past is something that we are all I'm sure not proud of. Secondly I have no objection for a non pale to be in the cockpit with me. I have flown on numerous occasions with SAA cadets and the majority were fine people. Let me add though that most of them had better educations and upbringings than I did. There was no studying by candle light in their households and mostly were a pleasure to work with.
But Afriman don't put words in my mouth as on no occasion did I say that non pales should be not allowed into the cockpit.
I am where I am now purely on merit. I worked and studied hard but as i said before don't demand something purely because you think it is your right.
Prove that you are good enough and you may get the just rewards....
And don't say I don't get it........either!!!!
Afriman it's a long road ahead and I will say again Rome wasn't built in a day..work with others and they will work with you!!!!:ok:
Here endeth the lesson........this sure is getting boring now. No wonder you failed your sim ride...you just don't listen do you!!!!! I'm outta here....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Afriviation]

beechbum you have to agree, if it were not for affirmative action, you wouldn't have flown with those SAA Cadets in the first place.
There we are you've just proven my point, the more advantaged blacks who make it into the Cadet Scheme were not impoversihed, which means that there's a whole lot of black people out there who are under the dark cloud of poverty who do not even know there's such a thing as an aeroplane flown by a human being.

On the whole then blacks are still lagging behind in most things and yes I agree that the government could do much more to uplift the standards of living for black people. But some of these initiatives come under fire and criticism and people are branded as opportunists who only want to receive things on a silver platter. Do me all a favour go spend 1 day in the life of an average black household in Joe Slovo settlement and try and comprehend how do these people succeed against all these odds

And yes interventions like affirmative action are necessary to bring more blacks into the mainstream economy and certainly within aviation.

The main issue without getting too political is representitivity. Let our aviation in it's entirety reflect the demographics of our country. It can be done easier if everyone understands the concept and supports it. Then one day when we all are on an equal footing we can compete and I'm sure the non pales will win judging by their progress thus far against all odds.

[Romeo E.T.]

Afriman, have you taken up your grievance on a man to man/ face to face basis with whoever needs to see your point of view, its one thing to start a contraversial post whilst hiding behind annonimity against actually sitting down in conference with someone to hear you out and see all the sides of whatever argument and standpoint you may have and then find the solution without going to the "rumour" network.

[Afriviation]

Romeo this is one touchy subject amongst pale aviators in SA, Do you think I'd ever live to see another day If I were to publicly and openly voice out my opinion. Don't think so. I think the reward in this is being able to say what is right and not what someonoe wants to hear without fear of prejudice.

Anyway you're right there's a need to discuss this on a broader level, but am I the brave darkie to brace the adversity? neh. But at least I hope that someone out there is listening and will do something about changing the status quo in their circle of influence.

[Romeo E.T.]

If you are in the right then YES, you should open this up publically, You still haven't given any reason for why you feel like this. If it is because as I mentioned earlier that you feel that YOU have been done out of something and you know your rights in this NEW DEMOCRACY of ours then you should bring it out into the open, If however you are purely to blame for the current misserable situation that you find yourself in, by whatever actions you may have done earlier today, then stay hidden here on pprune and then you deserve the criticism that is flying your way, and no reslotion is gonna come your way. To start a post like this as your FIRST post, something bad (in your perception) must have happened today, and being here on pprune is not gonna make you any happier at all. I personally have dealt with your ethnic group on various occasions in flying and training and if he/she meets the standard then he/she deserves everything that is due to you and I am proud to say so, but if you don't work for it then you dont deserve it a hand out creates a very bad aftertaste.

[bad]

This has been a very interesting debate on an old subject that one would have thought was worn out by now. Thanks for starting the thread, and thanks to everyone who wrote in.....very entertaining!! I hope we can all look back in years to come, and laugh at the wasted emotion, because perhaps by that time, transformation will have taken place, and people will be happier to be hired on merit....how insulting for anyone to get a job they dont qualify for, simply because of their colour!:)

[nugpot]

Do you think I'd ever live to see another day If I were to publicly and openly voice out my opinion.
That is not the "pale" style in the new SA.
BTW. Romeo ET - He was like this at the feeder airline too. Never happy, blames others. Psychologists call it an "external locus of control".

[Rotates Lowly]

What the hell is a "pale"?

[Afriviation]

Now why would anyone think I posted this thread because i had beef with some white person, c'mon I won't let the nation suffer because of one person's wrongdoing. Besides you intelligent people of pprune, which you should be by the nature of your profession, should have picked that up. Althought this is the was my 1st post I have followed the topics posted on this forum for a while. I could not help notice that a sgnificant number of posts had something to do with lambasting at the government for having done something to uplift a non pale aviator or even directed at the individual themselves or a particular aviation organisation that promoted equity.

Well before the bull**** baffles the whole world Someone had to say something to bring into prespective that not all was as gloomy for the pale aviators in SA but in fact the opposite is true. Black people are the presently disadvantaged have not taken their rightful place in SA Aviation.

You may regard that as arrogant or whatever but it is the simple truth which you choose to relate to hiring of incomptent people or the like. Well i have news for you, every black pilot out there is licenced by the Civil Aviation Authority like everyone of you and I'm not sure where this BS of hiring incompetent people comes from.

Furthermore if you are pale and have a flying job, regard yourself as lucky, and if you are about to be hired even luckier because if things were done meticulously to redress the imbalance moving forward the only pilots to be hired in SA Aviation in it's entirety should be black for the next 20 years. then we would have 95% black pilots in he country and then the principle of hiring on merit would take place. Hush hey, but realistically thats the only way transformation would in effect succeed in SA Aviation.

I myself wouldn't be comfortable with that arrangement because it would simply alienate every prospective white pilot from employment. I'm only suggesting a move from the other extreme where the whities are simply excluding blacks in Aviation.

You will argue that this is not so, then who else besides the government is willingly training and or employing blacks in this country. Solenta no. that's a lie that's SAA cadets , SAX, no that's another SAA training ground, Nationwide, no that's the CAA training ground. Mmmhh help me out here I'm running out of options. Any flying schools? Nada. Comair took 4 trainees in 19 Voetsek and that was it for them

The fact of the matter is Aviation in SA has not and will not accept blacks not unless it's forced down their throats.

Now I'm challenging all white owned Aviation Businesses have at least 1 black trainee/pilot in your ranks. Have some conscience for heaven's sake.

[surely not]

Afriaviation you make mention of SAA'a fleet being fully leased from European companies as if this is something unique and distasteful? Most of the Worlds fleet of commercial airliners are leased from major leasing companies in the USA or Europe. As yet I don't think there are any major leasing companies in Africa,

12 years is quite a long time in many ways, but in terms of education it doesn't cover the average pales time in school and university. So from the day things started to change for the better in SA the child starting school will only be 16. Not many 16 years old commercial pilots anywhere. For those who were already in school they would have had to WANT to be a commercial pilot to choose the right exams to qualify for sponsorship OR worked for very little at flying clubs in exchange for lessons and taken the long route.

I always said I wanted to be a pilot, but found excuses why I hadn't done it when in fact the real reason was I didn't want it enough to make the sacrifices. No matter I have had a good life in aviation on the ground.

If there are not enough non pales in the cockpits maybe it is because they can earn good money for less dedication elsewhere?

[Christo]

What the hell is a "pale"?

I have no idea!! I have it as whites, blacks, indians etc Call a spade a spade for crying out loud!!

But he chooses to selectively sidestep all questions posted to him and keeps hammering the same tune which is outa whack anyway ;) Do they teach this kind of debating in school nowadays?? :D

But like everyone said thus far, make a difference on 1st March when you go and vote, the current one is more into self enrichment than on service delivery etc! Not that the other candidates will do much better but we can dream can we :}

[Afriviation]

Surely not, Kindly read with some comprehension and stop wasting my time trying to explain obvious meaning behind such statements. If you had wet leased all your aircraft from Europe in SA not SAA, what would you have in those cockpits. Please don't make me have to explain the meaning of wet leasing.

[beechbum]

Afri that is one mighty huge horse you're on! I'm surprised you're still on it.
Man I cannot believe your arrogant, ignorant attitude is tolerated on this forum.
It seems that you have the audacity to tell us that you are now an expert on wet leasing.....man break the horses' legs and let me see you fall!!!!!
As they say every village has one just a pity they kicked you out of theirs!!!!!
If you had wet leased all your aircraft from Europe in SA not SAA, what would you have in those cockpits.......what in the Sam hell are you trying to say here ol wise one??????
The time has come........:zzz: :zzz:

[Tokoloshe]

Afriviation,

Judging from your incessant drivel and whining about how bad you have it, I can only conclude that you are not plagued by ideas...
Take a second or two and consider the many (and I mean many ) less fortunate people in this aviation business. If I was in your position, I would thank my lucky stars for where I am.
You keep harping on about aviation and the demographic balance; what about the medical field? Why doesn't the goverment just take people out of high school and make them doctors or surgeons or anaethetists? The answer is the same as aviation; You have to REALLY WANT to do it, and, just like aviation, putting inexperienced (Note, I did not say "qualified" ) people in the wrong positions invariably ends up with people dying.
As previous posters have stated, many folk were forced to take the long and hard route to where they are nowadays and they are justifiably proud of their achievements.
You will probably achieve all your goals in the airline with your demands and connections with all your comrades. That's your business, but please don't expect or demand respect from your colleagues. The world is a hard please and in case you don't know,it has to be earned.
I am an African, with a white skin and there is nothing I can do about it!
What about Africa for the Africans? Oh sorry, that doesn't quite suit your present agenda.
Just for the record, I flew many moons ago with several black Kenyan pilots operating out of Nairobi and Loki and am not ashamed to say they spoke better English than me and flew better most of the time too! Where are they now?? Mostly in KQ. Why? Because they deserved it. (There are lots of Mazungus there too )
I'm sure you will have some reply to this but quite frankly I don't care. The sad truth is that those who have been there and done it know what I'm talking about, I say sad because you obviously haven't.:suspect:

I think you should just tell everyone what you really want to see in SAA that would make you really happy. I think that if you really did have a passion for aviation you would not be spending so much time at the keyboard winding everyone else up, unless you want to the head of flight ops:confused:

Maybe next time you go on a flight, ask the Captain if you can make the PA anouncement. It might make you feel better and I'm sure all the passengers will sleep better knowing that SAA actually has a non-pale (your term) pilot up front.

Let's see if you have anything of real value to add......

Kwaheri

[Afriviation]

Ok let me help you here, the aircraft in SA are moatly flown by people of pale pigmentations. If all the aircraft in SA were leased from Europe they would all be flown by people of pale pigmentation. Most of the aircraft in this country are owned locally, some are dry leased from Europe and the rest of the world, then why can't most of the majority population groups of this country be seen flying these aircraft???

[Christo]

maybe you should follow your own advice and do the comprehension thing :hmm:

[beechbum]

I see what you're getting at now. If you put it all in English then maybe I could have understood.
Therefore by the power of deduction then all German people will be driving German cars, French people.....French cars and so on and so forth.
Afriman your argument again stinks.......and again i'm afraid you're talking even more kAKthan ever before.
I can't believe that an educated individual like myself lowers himself to this pathetic banter.
May your cockpits be filled with happiness Afriman cos hell there ain't much here........:sad:

[Afriviation]

You are happy to harp about your Kenyan Friends and colleagues, i haven't heard you mention any of your South African black pilot friends, that's probably you don't have any because you hate them as they got it in a silver platter and they are a threat to you.

Lets face it, black people can work until blood comes out of their ears, but they don't stand a chance in hell in making it in the highly competitive circles of SA Avaition if government does not intervene.

Most of you probably know this that even in your own white circrles, for anyone to get somewhere you have to have some connections in the Company. look for example how many Father&Son/Daughter combinations you have at SAA, co-incidence yeah right.

What connections would an aspirant black pilot would have that would be thicker than blood?

Give me a break you all know that this is not all about hard work and earning your place, it's about connections, circles, favours etc. Blacks don't go to pubs with whities or invite them for potjiekoses at their homes. They have zilch chances of ever making those connections.

The only way to get blacks employed in Aviation, is through Government intervention PERIOD!!! And even that is still met with hard hitting opposition and criticism.

[beechbum]

Hey Afriman.....look at Birdladys' post about her attempted hi-jacking on the
N1.......makes you sick man. And you want us to embrace your feelings about equality. Get a life and go ut and preach to these jerks that want to ruin the lives of many for what?:rolleyes: ....... a couple of grand.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Nou is ek kwaad!!!!!!

[Pale_ZA_Male]

I have had to register in order to reply to this thread. It is just too much to let it pass. Clearly I am a pale male and I have read with interest the various comments posted here.

South Africa needs to redress the imbalances of past. Miraculously we are here without a fight. Nevertheless the majority of population have aspirations and unfulfilled expectations. Without addressing these issues appropriately in the near future there certainly remains the possibility of this country becoming a Zimbabwe.

I am a landowner with a land claim on my property. The land claim exists as an attempt by government to address an issue in the past. I do not want to sell my property but the reality is without pale males making conscious and tangible efforts to address these aspirations then the whole country is at risk. I will negotiate to settle this claim by selling it on a 'willing buyer willing seller basis'. I do however expect a reasonable compensation.

Afriviation has a legitimate point. He is actually expressing it quite reasonably unlike some of the replies. The transformation he is wanting is not going to happen overnight. But unless there is a proactive and reasonable approach to include non pale males in this area of industry then it will never happen. A squeaky wheel gets oil. He's squeaking and we should at least offer some commitment to transform.

[beechbum]

Give me a break you all know that this is not all about hard work and earning your place, it's about connections, circles, favours etc. Blacks don't go to pubs with whities or invite them for potjiekoses at their homes. They have zilch chances of ever making those connections
Afriman....you may be right BUT you still have had to have proved yourself somewhere along the line in order that you may be recommended by someone in that particular company. It's the facts of life Afriman.....
As for your issue with blacks not going to pubs with the whities etc. I'm not surprised with the type of attitude you have. Again i reference the cadets I have flown with.....on numerous occasions we all went out together to several pubs etc.
I can't see your issue with this statement.......again i'm lowering my self.
Must get back on my pedestal where i belong and keep those natives who are revolting at bay!!!!!!;)
Ha now I've done it!!!
You're not beechjet in disguise are you?
Mysticflyer...............where are you?????

[beechbum]

As I have said pale ZA male on numerous occassions.... Rome was not built in a day.......but unfortunately Afriman wants everything to happen yesterday and we all now that is both unreasonable and unrealistic. In time we will see it change as it is what we hear through the corridors of power.....But like anything it takes time.:ok:
You are happy to harp about your Kenyan Friends and colleagues, i haven't heard you mention any of your South African black pilot friends, that's probably you don't have any because you hate them as they got it in a silver platter and they are a threat to you.
You see it's this type of thing that makes you realise what an arrogant, ignorant bafoon you really are. By using the word hate, Afriman, you have moved this posting from your side onto a totally different playing field. I actually pity you and feel sorry for the great crews that you will be flying with in the future for they will be subjected to your hateful ways!!!!
Some professional pilot you are. You should be stricken from the ranks........

[Afriviation]

Pale ZA Male well said, The issue is not about doing favours for the blacks it's about achievieng some equality across the board. You will never make everyone happy however what we have in SA is a formula for disaster, which is not being given the necessary attention it deserves. A lot can be said about similar situations in other spheres of our society, however I am limited by what I have observed right under my nose in Aviation. If this the kind of attitude our fellow white counterparts have adopted then it's sad for this country. We have made several strides to improve in many facets of our economy, but we cannot ignore the vast majority of the citizens of this country.

Again I'm no politician just a proud South African Aviator who aspires for equal opportunities for all aspirant Aviators of this country across all races.

[Afriviation]

When beechbum, in the 23rd century, well perhaps in SA aviation one needs to make noise now for it to happen then

[saywhat]

Ultimately, after reading the whole thread, I am still of the opinion that there is no fix to the problem. Affermative action (AA) is a reality in our country. Ones personal opinions about the validity of AA are only of intrest to those that hold them, as the actual decision has been made by the rulers of the nation, and for the forseeable future will not change. The problem lies in the fact that someone has to pay for AA to take place. SAA has a program in place, which I believe is a good one. I have met some of the black pilots that have come through the system, and I must say that I am generaly impressed with the standard.

If I was the owner of a small, or large aviation company in SA, I don't believe that I would sponsor a black pilot. Not because of race, but because it is a very expensive exercise, and the candidate would leave before I got any return on my investment. This is not to say that the candidate would be wrong to go, on the contrary, he would be foolish not to futher his career. The profit margin in the aviation industry is too small to expect the industry to pay for the training. (I'm talking charter / airline) The only funding that can take place to drive the idea of AA in aviation is Government (through the SAAF and SAA), and private individuals and companies who have vast quantities of spare money to spend on bursaries to students. Down side to this is that these individuals would rather sponsor a universaty graduate that they can later get their pound of flesh from.

So once again, I am the prophet of doom. There is no answer. IF there is, I will be the first to subscribe to it, as I was born in this country, I love this country and I will do anything in my power to assure that this country is as good to my children as it was and is to me!

[Romeo E.T.]

Afriman, tell us how long did it take you to get where to you are today in aviation? if some government official were per chance surfing this forum tonight and decided to take action tommorrow morning, without first starting a commision of enquiry and another commision and another and so on and so on, as per your progress time scale how long would it take to reach some kind of equality?, 3/4/5 years I would think.

And do you really believe that ranting and raving on this forum, getting it to grow to 5 pages in just one day is actually gonna make a difference?

The profile of people on this forum, and on pprune in general are not your captains of the industry ie Roger Foster/Vernon Bricknel/Piet van Hoven/whoever is currently running SAA/SAX. These people that can actually make the difference, they are probably not even that interested in pilot issues, more worried about yields, prices, profit margins, answering to shareholders, to them we are all just "workers" or "employee numbers".

You are just getting your fellow "workers" and colleages all worked up and resentment towards you but no solution will come out of this, we can all agree, disagree and comiserate with you but we cannot effect the changes.

Thus my call to you bring this issue that you so strongly feel about out into the open, go see your "congressman" and ask for an official enquiry to be launched, thats the only way that your frustrations can be addressed.

Then we will see what is really going on here!

[Afriviation]

beechbum is obviously an orthodox white supremist, the only dilemma I have is that the most progressive and succesful white people are the ones who tend to to understand the issues of diversity, equality and so forth, so where does that leave beechbum. he's probably a miserable whitie who was not fortunate enough to have his parents take full advantage of the status quo and make a fortune like most pale people. So you see beechbum you would be better off supporting my cause at least I would make sure that you at least get some recourse in this new dispensation.
You could move from the flying school and get a real job flying real aeroplanes.

[Pale_ZA_Male]

I manage a small business which is being driven by BEE requirements to become BEE. There is more to BEE than just selling shares, something that the shareholders are loathe to do. We have been focusing on employment equity, training, enterprise development etc. In our firm positions exist that should be filled by 'non pale' faces. However the reality of the situation is that there are insufficient educated and experienced black people (black, coloured, indian etc) to fill it. Those that we have appointed have needed a significant amount of mentoring and allowances have been made in their performance. Considering the transformation obstacles and issues I have encountered in a small company makes it easily understandable why transformation in a highly specialised industry such as aviation is taking so long.

There is also no mentoring in flying. You either qualify or you don't. However, a common thread amongst all pilots is that they are passionate about flying. It is not something peope do when all else fails. They are there because they want to be there and to get into it professionally takes years of building hours. Perhaps Afriaviation, your time frame needs to be extended and your delivery expectation reduced. The final result of representation of africans of all colour is hopefully what will make this country succeed where other african countries have failed.

[Pale_ZA_Male]

In typing my last reply I missed a bit of activity. However may I say Afriviation that your comments are becoming personal and contribute nothing towards the issue you raised. The strength of your initial comments were that they were sensible and were expressed without the emotion you now display.

[Afriviation]

Romeo Thanks, Look man this forum is never going to get any of the gripes I have said all day today right. The reason I decided to post my views on this forum is becasue of the amount of gripes by the regular posters in this forum about BEE employment equity etc in Aviation. Someone had to tell them that hang on you are moaning about a,b and c whilst the millions of South Africans who could lay claim to this profession are sitting quietly and hoping for the sun to shine one day.

As one of the writers has posted recently, it is quite expensive for any Company to sponsor a pilot. Granted, but why do whities always moan about that darkie and that one who have been sponsored by governemet when in fact that's the least that could happen in trying to redress the past imbalances. I mean any outsider sho would have read these posts (before today off course) would think that SA white Aviators are marginalised whreas in fact the opposite is true.

[birdlady]

Afrivation,

I've had a really kuk day so please bear with me ;) :\ :\

You have made some valid points but in others you have not. Let me explain.

Agreed apartheid did create a huge amount of inequalities. Yes the aviation industry should be more demorgraphic. However, this should be done WITHOUT compromising safety. You mentioned in one of your earlier posts, as my understanding was, that because you have a licence you are qualified. I could not disagree with this more. Same as you would not expect a newly qualified doctor to perform a heart transplant by themselves you would not expect a newly qualified CPL to land an aircraft on some dodgy landing strip in the middle of nowhere in kuk weather by themselves. Baby steps is the key. ;) ;)

Another point you made was that the government should be responsibe for implementing BEE (for lack of a better word) in the aviation industry. This is all very well and think on principle is a good policy if not always practicle. But like you said yourself not many non pales are able to afford to fly in the first place. This is the same everywhere. Im irish, besides the fact that I grew up in SA why do you think Im doing my training here - because its ALOT CHEAPER. If I did go back to Ireland to finish my licence (did seriously consider after my experience today :rolleyes: ) it would cost 10's of thousands of pounds - money which I do not have.

Your obviously a well educated bloke and I do understand where you are coming from even if you maybe slightly dillusional :p :p :p Allow me to explain, you said crime here is rampant because of the socio economics. Whose to blame for that. THE GOVERNMENT. Not enough money is spent on uplifting the people through education. If enough money was spent setting up education schemes we would not be in the position that we are in now - unemployement leading to crime and/or poor living conditions. And if you think about it by some screwed logic not enough money to fly :rolleyes: :ok: :ok:

[Romeo E.T.]

Afriman, if your intention was to get at those in this forum and on various other topics that complain about BEE and employment equity issues, then you succeeded and I am with you on this issue, if we dont address the imbalances of the past then we are just sitting on a gunpowder keg just waiting for the ignition source, the time scale could be a problem, FAIR equity for those that have achieved at least the MINIMUM requirements is also only fair. Most of us have already achieved something in our lives and therefore should not withhold oppurtunities for others just because we are GREEDY, but the process must be FAIR. Token'isms in promotions and employment and awarding cadet scheme oppurtunities is not what we want as that will just cause another "thread" to be started up again...........You have made those anti-BEE/equity people aware of your gripe....I call on you to take it to the open if you actually want to see some FAIR action to take place.

[Pale_ZA_Male]

BEE today is far less severe than bussing was in America. It is an attempt to level the playing field and no-one wants to play uphill. BEE is still a form of discrimination and when you are at the receiving end you complain. Fortunately we, pale faces, have access to the media and can complain loudly. It was just a pity that for years under apartheid many whites could not hear any blacks complaining - otherwise things might have been different. A wheel that does not squeek receives no attention.

[Afriviation]

Birdlady, some of your points taken, I'm not sure how much os the history of this country that you do know, but I can tell you that the new government sis trying to undo a deliberate plan by the previous government to deny blacks of a proper education and development.

I'm not sure how they're doing in 12 years, nevertheless it is never going to be overnight same as the transformation of our cockpits. Social engineering is a very long process which requires Capital Investment, supportive communities and a competent government. However it's not only about getting the basics right for the poor it goes up along the food chain to include the professions like Aviation and others. People need to be made to feel that they are an integral part of the economy and not just labourers and consumers.

So once again the ppruners need to accept that in light of the expensive nature of training pilots, Unfortunately taxpayers money has to be used, it is for the benefit of all in the country ultimately. The only other lternative is to alienate SA blacks from flying forever.

[saywhat]

Afri, CONGRATULATIONS, this threat started at 11:45. Now 12 hours later we are on page 6. If this demonstrates one thing, it's that this topic needs dealing with (101 posts ...gota be a record).

Other things I have learned.
1. Most real arguementative people go to bed early.
2. Spelling becomes less important with time
3. Some people just don't seem to have a clue
4. Others do
5. Its late
6 I'm tired
8. good night All

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Alienate blacks from aviation forever?

Your arguments are not valid. You're playing the emotional and race card at every opportunity. White pilots ARE being marginalised in that they have been told in so many words when applying to the national carrier that they're wasting their time. The importation of foreign pilots from other African countries does nothing but breed resentment among those excluded.

I understand that the Apartheid system was wrong and that injustice was the prime mover for the struggle against the old Nat government. Unfortunately, two wrongs do not make a right and it appears that the current ruling elite haven't realised this. The playing fields are not level and never have been. They've done a complete 180 from skewed in favour of one group to a diametrically opposed position in favour of another with no middle ground. On paper, the discrimination is minor, but the reality is something completely different. The percentage of unemployed black pilots is far lower than that of unemployed white pilots and the situation has reached a stage where the SAAF has a problem in that their pilots are leaving the moment they're qualified as airlines snap them up and have even been known to pay for their outstanding training bonds to get them released. The cadet scheme is a step in the right direction but the selection criteria leave much to be desired. To uplift those in desperate need is one thing but family and friends of political cronies and business associates do not fall into that category.

A pilot with the unfortunate burden of being male and white is faced with a difficult choice. Stay in a country where he grew up and has an emotional attachment or move on to somewhere less discriminatory. Those fortunate enough to be employed are invariably sent to work outside SA for nowhere near an adequate remuneration, in appalling conditions and at great personal risk in many cases.

Like Tokoloshe, I've worked with some excellent crews all over Africa but the chip on the shoulder of some South African graduates of the cadet scheme leaves me cold and does nothing to further their cause. By the same token, I've spoken to some really pleasant individuals and I have no doubt they'll go far in their careers.

'Nuff said...

[Romeo E.T.]

"SAYWHAT" I totally agree with you on this on. goodnight........zzzz

[Pale_ZA_Male]

10 bucks on this getting to ten pages!

good night..

[Afriviation]

Every post on this thread deserves an answer, but I have to succumb to the demands of my circradian rhythm. Hopefully i'll have some intelligent answers ofr you in the morning.

[surely not]

Afriaviation I am actually very understanding of your points, but I am increasingly frustrated with your arrogant and offensive replies to many posters.
I also take issue with you about my understanding of leasing. You didn't mention Wet or dry leasing in your initial comment, therefore my comment about most airlines leasing from European or American Leasing companies was quite correct. They lease the aircraft instead of buying it, a sort of advanced hire purchase, and they operate them with their own crews, front and back. The countries where the airlines own their aircraft are invariably the ones with the older and well used aircraft that have been banned from Europe for noise reasons etc.
A wet, damp or dry lease is very different.
Whilst there should be a clear aim to try to level the playing fields for anyone from any background to become a pilot, it is absolutely essential that safety standards are maintained and if people cannot cut the mustard then they are dropped. A mistake in most jobs doesn't result in many people dying, in aviation it could well do.

[Woof etc]

Afriviation, possibly you could give me your insight into something that has puzzled me for a while:

It is now over 13 years since the ANC came into power - since then a large black middle class has developed in SA - whether you like to admit it or not. A cursory glance through the Sunday Times careers section will confirm that affirmative action is alive and well. As someone pointed out earlier the majority of 500k + cars on the road are driven by non-whites. Millions of black people in SA own properties in the suburbs.

So what prevents the kids of these 'middle class' citizens pursuing a career in aviation? Where are the black kids in the grassroots of aviation? In the microlight clubs, in the EAA, in the model aeroplane clubs? Where are the black kids pushing gliders around all day on a dusty airfield for a shot at 20 minutes in the air? Where are the black kids working in the Mc Donalds on the weekend, scraping together enough money for an hour in a 172 once a month? Where are the black flying instructors, toiling away hour upon hour in some battered old trainer for a mere pittance? Where are the black kids working behind the desks of the flying schools, gofering on contracts or in the residential flying schools - I have no doubt they would be welcomed with open arms. Where's the passion??

Could it be that for most aviation requires sacrifice and dedication? Possibly it could be that being a pilot doesn't carry the perceived status of being a hotshot politician or middle manager on some fast track blue chip management training program. And of course theres no fancy BMW....

I have spent the last few years working as a contract pilots in the sh%tholes of Africa. Nothing was handed to me, or most of my colleagues on a plate. Every one of my hours was paid for by sweat, toil and sacrifice. The car I drive is still a piece of cr$p. Many of my colleagues, including myself worked for years in other careers to be able to finance the dream of becoming a commercial pilot. Yet our esteemed national carrier does not consider us worthy of the seat occupied by your buttered non pale arse.

As for the old apartheid story. GET A LIFE!!!!!! The Jews have been persecuted and discriminated against for thousands of years - yet it hasn't stopped then from becoming the most influencial and powerful race on the planet. Possibly because they dealt with it and moved on instead of wallowing in self pity and blame?

[Woof etc]

Moderators - is this guy posting from SA?? Seems like a bit of a wind up to me? Hes not from Denmark by any chance?

Anyway, I'm off to go and stamp my feet and burn some stuff down now...

[topo di radar]

Afriviation, I am not a pilot. I am an Air Traffic Controller of 22 yrs experience and now reside and work abroad. My decision in moving abroad is career based and financial goal orientated. I truly love every aspect that constitutes what is known as the 'aviation fratenity'.

You initiated a controversial and well travelled thread, that being the subject of ensuring a geater commitment (not just at govermental level, but regionally and company based level ) to ensure greater respresentivity of the overwelmingly black population in South Africa in the aviation fraternity, more particularly, that of pilots.

I would imagine that you knew it would attract pointed and deliberate counter viewpoints and opinions, and possibly that may have been a small part of your motive. However, be that as it may, I in all honesty have to admit, you thus far have displayed a very calm, balanced and rational approach as opposed to some of the more direct and 'untailored' rebuttles you have been recipient of. This is a good quality, dont ever lose it, it will stand you in good stead in years to come. However, take into account, you are dealing with gentlemen who amongst them carry in relation to you, a far superior knowledge of flying, be it in various aircraft, to destinations, on routes, with new equipment and having a flying culture/knowledge data-base, that when they share that with you, and they will, you will see why South African pilots are rated amongst the best in the world. These gents are no lightweights and invariably dont have the inclination to pad some of their responses, but I can assure you Afriviation, these gents have thrown nothing but the surgically naked truth out there.

You seem to display a passion for your career and an equally matched frustration as to why the representation level within the demographics is not what you would expect it to be. I also sense that you also lay a large part of the blame within the training framework. It is because of this, that I want to share my experience of training Air Traffic Controllers with you as I can safely assume, based on personal experience is not that far removed from the training methodologies within the realms of SAA, or aviation training in SA today as a whole.

Firstly, without realising it, you for all intents and purposes answered some of your own questions and frustrations with some of your comments on SA's newly formed democracy, very early in the first two or three of your postings. The democratic re-birth of South Africa is nothing short of a "world first". Take into account, even though black people are the monority in the USA, it took them two revolutions, a horrendous and protracted civil war and many vicious internal 'state' sourced clashes to attain what they proudly proclaim as the 'model' of democracy, all this over a period of 100 years. Yet, still many of the same issues are prevalent today, all-be-it on a much smaller scale, but none-the-less, still prevalent. India too, the self proclaimed oldest democracy, took in excess of fifty years to show any real signs of stability, let alone a democracy.

By saying this, I am in no way making light of the human rights abuses and oppresion South Africa pre 1994 enaged in, not at all, I am merely bringing into prespective that 12 years is in the shaping of a democracy, especially from a government gazetted oppressive era, still what is termed 'infancy', an infancy that carries with it all the dangers and rewards, elation and despair, success and failure, the inevitable pogress and yes, also the inevitable bouts of regress that may occur. As you correctly, say, the Apartheid governments biggest and most disturbing legacy to overcome, is that of tolerance and apathy, instead of empathy. This as you and several other of the contributors to this topic have correctly stated is something that is best served by patience and diligence. The change is happening, it is not a case of it will happen at a slow pace, but it is happening at a slow pace and that in a twelve year democracy is already a milestone. Most democracies 'fence-sit' for twenty, thirty years before even attempting to embark on formative changes. South Africa practised Affirmative action from pracically day one, the USA procrastinated over the subject for some thirty to forty years before displaying any real in-roads into affirmative action. South Africa has been labelled by President Bush of the USA as an "Anchor" in Africa. Even though President Mbeki's quiet diplomacy or "third way" in dealing with conflict in Africa was much maligned, it was his "third way" using South Africa's democracy as a model, that in 2002 managed to get the DRC's Joseph Kabila and Rwanda's Paul Kagame to sit face-to-face for the very first time since the Great Lakes conflict erupted and begin a process of peace talks that eventually evolved into the UN sanctioned MONUC peace monitoring force that served in the DRC. In that year, the Interim Chairperson of the OAU, Amara Essy and the Malawian President Bakili Muluzi and DG of the UN, Kofi Annan, were willing counter signatures to the beginning of this peace process. It was not immediately successful, but up and until that particular point nothing had been done to even match what SA was doing. So in 2002, after just 8 years of democracy, to have your Country's democratic growth and stability sold as a "model" is quite something indeed, in fact, it is a world first. Afriviation, in writing this, I am saying, start to have more faith and belief in what your own government is doing by realising that development and empowerment of black employees in SAA, whether pilot or not, will most definitely after twelve years not be fully representitive, but take courage in the fact that there is a programmre in place to address that. Despite what you perceive as 'glaring' instances of deliberate obstacles to induce failure or even frustration such that resignations are forth-comming, may very well be explained away on closer inspection, only to find that after exhaustive and extended training, nothing more could have been done to assist that particular candidate in succeeding. You might even discover that some candidates were given more than one or two chances at trying and might even have been the recipient of an instructors time outside of his/her working hours for what they might not even have been paid. As one of the contributors stated earlier on, there has to be an Academic cut off point beyond which not only will it be unsafe to go (peoples lives), but current economics will deem it without purpose in relation to the very real business of making money and runing a business, which you admitted to in one of your earlier postings. You might even discover that one or two instructors could see the ever so faint emergence of potential in a candidate after several failings, but bound by regulations, had to submit, possibly even grudgungly, to having to fail that candidate.

I have trained so many ATC's, I barely remember some of the faces or countries they came from, let alone their names. However the one aspect of training South African ATC's I remember, especially black candidate ATC's is this; I along with many if not all of my colleagues recognized that even after being selected for training, we would have to put in a far greater amount of time and effort, especially the finely tuned art of patience in training them, again, by-en-large because of the reason you alluded to yourself earlier on, the legacy of oppresive education in SA. This we did gladly, as we all were and still are, as you are, passionate about our particular careers. Our black trainees from South Africa received, if needed our extra time, not only after hours, but on weekends too,.......without being paid for it. I will even go so far to say that at times when there appeared to be a glimmer of hope in some of the weaker cadets, we assessed them on a slightly more lenient basis than say their stronger black or white counter-parts. This was done in realising that possibly language and confidence and understanding of separation application and other procedures would be given a boost to a point where-by they actually empowered themselves to succeed. Several times we employed these 'lenient' procedures, candidates emerged stronger and continued their training with such purpose, they succeeded, which in its own right, empowered then even more. Even our critique of their performances during training were toned down or 'watered' down. I pesonally have witnessed candidates on the receiving end of such training methodology, progress and evolve into very articulate and successful ATC's. Some, controlling to a much higher standard than their white counter-parts. However, South Africa is signatory to ICAO, IATA, adhering to the South African Aviation Legislation Doc and the Training Academy in Johannesburg is a pactising subscriber to the ISO 9001/2 Audit system, with most if not all Instructors SAQWA qualified.

In light of the above, no amount of extension of training or even re-training (which has happenned), will in many cases result in a failing candidate's ability to succeed, so they are either terminated or offerred a post within the framework of Air Traffic Services, but naturally, not one for which they applied. Again, the same reason holds true here, ultimately the ICAO mandate to an Air Traffic Controller must be met, that being the Controllers ability to ensure a Safe, Orderly and Expeditious flow of traffic, Safety being of paramount performance. The Air Traffic Controllers in SA, at all levels are still today not reflective of the "representivity" that you refer to, of course not, but it is most definitely not because of any perceived bigotted approach or anything to the like, on the contrary, it is because the government recognizes that transition and progress in this field, because of its very nature, dictates a gradual and measured pace, one that may at times even be perceived as slow, littered with vindictive/slanted appraisals of staff, or even in-effective. However again, take cognizance of the fact you are in a successful democracy 12 years in its growth from total oppression to total expression, instant results as I have illustrated earlier are not only by world standards completely unrealistic, but have the potential of disaster, which in many ways will, I assure you, if forced upon any company, be more destructive to the very people it is trying to help......no man or woman would be happy forced or fast-tracked into a position they feel insufficiently trained for and the emotional trauma on that person will be without measure should that person bare witness to the failing of a company/venture or heaven forbid, live through an airline disaster that they know in some way, they were in part or wholly responsible for.

Afriviation, it will as I am sure you realise now, take at least one to two generations of post Apartheid Black candidates to start featuring more prominently within the flying fraternity, maybe even sooner.

Your argument is not without its merit, in fact I believe it a very just one, as I know there is untapped potential out there within the ranks of the black population in South Africa, but realise, especially as you present yourself as a rational person, that fast-tracking or protracted training or even liberal or open-ended selection is tantamount to nothing more than a quick-fix approach, and as a pilot in SAA, having made it as far as you have, inter-acting with the invaluable experience of your colleagues, I know you see the value, all-be-it frustrating, in a sustained and measured approach. I know several pilots in SAA, some who have moved on to greener pastures for whatever reason, but whenever I talk to them, one on one, without fail they all admit that whenever a pilot makes it through his/her selection and training, they get only the best in-flight and simulator training and surely that is a standard and culture that you honestly dont believe is worth jepordising to ensure a more immediate reflection of the South African population?

Anyway, all the best in your career with SAA, I am sure you will make all your colleagues proud.

[Brian_Dunnigan]

What a disappointing attitude you have Afrivation!

You seem to have a great pozzie at some airline and you moan about there being a lack of blacks in the industry.

1. You need Maths and Science skills for many aviation positions, both skyward and on the ground. This cannot be rushed as one needs a solid grounding in this. In Oz, you will not make it if you don't have this.

2. You are helping someone to get there, I hope, because actions do speak louder than words.

3. Many blacks don't make it because they don't realise what a commitment learning to fly is, as do many whites and other races too (not make it that is)!

4. There is no point in blaming aviation for high standards to meet safety regulations.NO ONE should be allowed to fly if they do not meet the standards.

5. You need to meet more non-black pilots, Afri. You will quickly see that aviation is not fair to all...ask the many pilots who fail to get in to airlines despite having many hours of experience.

6. I left SA before the 1994 elections occurred. I'm disappointed that many are still harking back to those times and have failed to move forward. There are elections due soon and I hope that voters will send the government a message to resolve the massive unemployment and crime issues that affect all in SA.

7. Sons of gardeners, maids, etc. can be anything they want to if they are prepared to work for it. Hard work gets results!

Good luck to everyone in SA...you've a great country!:ok:

[SpootNICK]

We tried to warn you Afriviation........

But alas, you did not listen. You have scratched open old wounds and subsequently made yourself look like a doos.

Sorry old chum.

SN

[cavortingcheetah]

:cool:

What Ho! Afriviation.
With no disrespect intended; I am not sure that you are on the level.
For a recent joiner you demonstrate quite a reasonable knowledge as to the workings of Pprune and the emotional sensitivities of some of those who post regularily. In addition to this; your command of the English language is to be commended. That is a compliment.

You pose a few questions in your original post. Let me please have a bash at answering them.

In a democracy, when less than 10% of the population control some major element of that society, it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that the less than 10% is better at the job than the more than 90%.

The present South African government, which is perhaps more racist and corrupt than its predecessor would wish to level the playing field?
By reducing standards to accomodate a lowest common denominator?
By the advancement of candidates on the basis of nepotism or racially biased prejudice?
Perhaps it is these policies which fall foul of the media and forums?
The travelling public deserves some protection from a misguided policy which would stuff cockpits with those of any race, dare I say, whose abilities might be less than adequate to safely perform satisfactorily. One must be aware of the fact that there are good taxi drivers and there are bad taxi drivers. Not all taxi drivers are good taxi drivers and therefore, all taxi drivers are bad taxi drivers!:=

Ah yes, job sharing. You cannot really cut up the Christmas cake in proportion to the number of screaming children around the table. Some are simply less able than others to digest rather rich food. Digestive systems do vary from person to person and no amount of tea time tantrums will change this fact.

The Moderators.
Poor long suffering chaps that they are. They have a hard job sometimes but on the whole they perform very well. However, in my limited experience within these august pages; I have to say that they do not take too kindly to lashings either at transformations or anything else for that matter. I suspect that your chum might have been just a teensie weensie bit undiplomatic, perhaps even biased, perchance bigoted? This might just have upset the dear old Censors.

I do hope that some of the above will serve to allay some of your fears.
I don't know whether or not a really good CRM course might help put things in perspective? It should certainly address the perennial problem of perceived inadequacies.
Toodle off now, shall I?:uhoh:

[Dct no speed]

To the guy in the affirmative suite:

I have to agree with some of the earlier post; that it should be about time we stop blamming the Verwoerd goverment for our own short commings.

In aviation we can not have people around just because we need the numbers right.

A SAAF none pale pilot was send to bring the Grippen back to SA, he was not send because he was black but because he deserved it. He is a hard working individual.He achieved this trough hard work. Why is it that this goes un-noticed? Why is it that the one's that does not have what it takes, are always ready to jump on the "your are a racist" wagon?

Please also tell me how bringing in people from other countries are helping out our own people, like the Zim boy's? Surely you will be a bit upset if we start putting other countries players in Bafana bafana to help out with the really s:mad: ty soccer team!
The SAAF for years had some of the best training in the world and all who deserved to pass passed black or white!
What gets me is that those that did not have what it took, goes on the discrimination wagon, get a second or third go. Then get to go solo to only a few months later break our planes! I told you so ! We say and wonder when the next one will be.

Non pales should remember that it was infact pales that voted to change the country's laws.I for one are all for transformation as this makes sense, we can become a strong nation if more people are part of the industry and all walks of life are represented.But if you don't have what it takes that does not make all pale people racist!

It has been 12 years! We as aviators and the aviation industry has only one purpose and that is to keep every one in the Air safe! We can not have below average people operating planes or controlling them. Be a realise Afriviation! Will you take your kids or wife to a doctor that you know is not a good doctor?

Felicia on E (or coke) asked an ATC why they dont appoint people of colour who even below average can gain experience ect. Please tell me will you fly around knowing that the controllers might gain experience after you make use of your tcas to avoid another plane ?

To all who have made it because of hard work hat's of to you. To those who can not make it maybe aviation is not for you try something else .....like maybe become a doctor!:ok:

[Felix04]

Afriviation,

It Sickens me to hear the same old apartheid story from individuals whom does not perform to par or just generally f up in their job.I'm certain that most individuals on this forums shares this sentiments with me.

You seem like a intelligent person, so let me try and explain why this fast tracking of the BEE principal cannot work in the short run by explaining the situation currently experienced in the Engineering field.

Let's just ignore the injustices that has been commited for a moment.

I gather rom your previous posts it doesn't seem that you have worked in any other professional field before.

Your government enforced BEE on private enterpises. So, if you want a government contract or any work from the government be it local or national work you should have a BEE entity working with you either within the company (should have BEE employees) or working with such an company.
A large percentage of the times these individuals are absolutely useless, meaning that they have nothing to contribute in succesfully completing the project, and is basically just keeping the seat warm and keeping somebody else that could have been productive out of a job. When a contract is awarded to an BEE company, this company subcontracts another company usually "Pale" to do the job because they do not have the knowledge or know how to successfully complete the job. Another situation that , occurs is that the work gets done but it is riddled with mistakes that it is not usefull and should be redone.
This knowledge is gained through years and years of experience, not by fast tracking the system to benefit a particular race.

We cannot allow this to happen in the cockpit environment.
There it is not ok for something not to be 100% correct.You are responsible not only for your own life, but the lives of your passengers as well.

You've been dodging this question before. It's been asked before by other posters as well. Show me at any flight school an coloured individual answering the telephone or helping other students. Lots of white guys doing it that might not have the financial means that do this for an hours worth of flying. In our current situation it is much easier to attain funds for a coloured person wether it be sponsorship or applying to the airforce or any other organization that has transformation on the agenda. So your Bull****, story of coloured people not having enough money or the lack of a opportunity does not fly. Sorry Buddy

Thus, Transformation is necessary, but it will take a while. Fast tracking the process is definitely not the answer.
I personally have no problem with diversifying the cockpit as long as these individuals has shown the competence as well as the passion and willingness to make it a success and work your arse off for it, and not to right previous injustices commited.

[beechbum]

You could move from the flying school and get a real job flying real aeroplanes.
Afriman I'm not even going to waste my time..........if you would have the manners to have a look at my profile you would see that I infact have a proper job. AGAIN have worked damn hard to acieve it and am proud of where I am. I didn't demand or get it on a plate like so many of your brethren.
And don't sit there on your mighty horse non pale face as you have no idea where I'm from and where I've been, because man if you knew you'd be rather surprised and shocked at my background.
Now back off you :mad: and get on with something that is both intelligable and interesting.

[arcwi]

Afriviation, you are making good point - unfortunately you are complaining to the the wrong crowd...
You should be talking to your Government instead.
You are unhappy with the fact that the airlines are not putting enough emphasis on broadbase BEE participation and color-transformation in the Flight operations area.
But of course, don't be surprised - that is what the government wants - and that's is exactly what airlines deliver.
The Government is the one that refuses (or unable to) consistently to come up with a clear and simple definition of BEE - targets, goals and objectives...
The Government is also the one that assigned lower priority on broadbase BEE participation and elevated to the top the importance of equity participation by few as sufficient to meet BEE (blurred) targets.
Surely you are not blaming the operations for the fault occurring on a strategic level?
Or do you believe that the board of directors of a (government owned) airline is not capable of recognising a gap in an important strategic area and letting the tail wag the dog?
Don't be naive...
You must be blind - or unwilling - to see the ordinary citizens in SA embracing the transformation values and standing up behind the principle of BEE - only to be let down by few (and their close friends) in power with own agenda...

[JustaWorker]

I am not a Pilot, so I appologise for butting in here; but I do work for a Commercial Helicopter Charter Company, (Which needs to remain anonomous as I am not writing for them, but myself) and have done so for 10 years. I am not pale, I am white, middle aged, and female, so as far as BEE is concerned, PLEASE do not expect sympathy from me - my position is TOTALLY replacable!
Afri, let me tell you, in the 10 years I've worked here, NOT ONE non-white Commercial Helicopter Pilot with over 1000 hours of flying experience (Insurance requirement) has yet applied to fly here! NEITHER has ONE non-white, QUALIFIED Helicopter Engineer ever applied to work here. Where are these people? Are you implying that all Entrepeneurs who started their own businesses, by their own sweat and hard work, should now run out collecting people from the street and pay out their own money to train them? WHY?
It is really time that everyone stopped hiding behind the old excuse of Apartheid being to blame for every damn thing that goes amiss in this Country and people's personal lives. For your information - I was the product of what in the old days was called a "Broken Home" and my dad was an alcoholic and my mother had to work 2 jobs to feed us:- Boo Hoo, Big Deal! Let those who didn't grow up tough throw the first Party!
Did anyone give me a hand-out, because of my depraved childhood? No! - In those days, it was something to be ashamed of, so you shut up about it! I don't sympathise - I had to pay a bloody fortune to an ex-government school, turned so-called Model C through no fault of mine, and my kid got an A-class Matric, but could not go to Varsity 'cos the loan program was only for blacks. And my youngest child goes to a so-called 'white' school, which also costs me a fortune, but it is my local school so I have no option, and she is one of only 5 white kids in her class, and I live in a so-called 'white' suburb, and there are only 3 white families in the street, and we are the only 3 families without a car in the street! (Sometimes our non-white neighbours offer us lifts to the shops!)
Your suggestions are immature and rediculous! Read these threads properly! The CAA has been mentioned by you and several others here but it has definately detriorated in the last few years, and that is a FACT - They can't even keep a Helicopter which has been grounded for 2 years on the ground in Cape Town, lets blame it on Apartheid, why don't we! BEE is all very well, but you want to ask a one-man family business to fire his family and appoint outsiders - how do you fathom that?
GET WITH IT!
(My appologies to the Pilots, thanks for keeping our skies safe, but I just had to have my say)

[beechbum]

Justaworker you are welcome anytime.Nicely put and agree with you whole heartedly on the matter.
Thankyou ma'am for giving us your perspective.:ok:

[VS -1500 fpm]

With black guys like this coming trough the ranks, what is going to happen to our SA? They just want and want and want.:yuk:

[JG1]

Afriviation, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that you should NOT have been trained as a pilot by the government for free.

Your training which cost more than R500,000.00 at least could have been better put to use by sending 250 unemployed squatters on a R2000,00 matric course. They could then could get better jobs!! As you so succintly pointed out, blacks do have extended families and are very supportive of them. So, these 250 matriculants could have got better jobs and supported say, six, people each. So every time you step aboard the aircraft, spare a thought for the 1750 poor starving squatters who sacrificed so that YOU could be in your shiny little uniform.

When you become a Captain, say in 18 years time, the next generation of six kids each will have been born. So for the price of your four bars, my ungrateful little friend, more than TEN THOUSAND people could have had a better future.

Training black pilots is obviously turning out specimens such as yourself, its clearly a partial failure.

They could instead spend R30 on sunvisors for the aircraft with a picture of a smiling black oke on the outside to keep the punters thinking you are flying them!:}

Whilst we do the hard work of a) flying them and b) putting up with arseholes like you with a forced smile:yuk:

[saywhat]

I am sorry to say that up till now, I was blissfully unaware of what Employment equity really meant. So after a little research, here is my take on the situation.
Summary of the Employment Equity Act, 55 of 1998, issued in terms of
Section 25(1)
The purpose of the Act is to achieve equity in the workplace, by
a. promoting equal opportunity and fair treatment in employment through
the elimination of unfair discrimination; and
b. implementing affirmative action measures to redress the disadvantages
in employment experienced by designated groups, to ensure their
equitable representation in all occupational categories and levels in the
workforce.
No prblems so far
1.2 Application of the Act: Section 4
d. A designated group means black people, women, or people with
disabilities.
Think I got it
2. Chapter 2 - Prohibition of Unfair Discrimination
2.1 No person may unfairly discriminate, directly or indirectly, against an
employee in any employment policy or practice, on one or more grounds
including race, gender, pregnancy, marital status, family responsibility, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, HIV status,
conscience, belief, political opinion, culture, language, and birth.
2.2 It is not unfair discrimination to promote affirmative action consistent with the Act or to prefer or exclude any person on the basis of an inherent job requirement.
Point 2.2 might make some see red
3. Chapter 3 – Affirmative Action
3.1 Duties of a Designated Employer:
a. A designated employer must implement affirmative action measures for
designated groups to achieve employment equity.
note must!!!!
3.2 Affirmative Action measures: Section 15
a. Affirmative action measures are measures intended to ensure that
suitably qualified employees from designated groups have equal
employment opportunity and are equitably represented in all
occupational categories and levels of the workforce.
This is where it gets sticky. What is suitably qualified? All those "against", put your hands up for "experience". All those "for" put your hands up for "qualification". (ie. Com or ALTP
b. Such measures must include:
• identification and elimination of barriers with an adverse
impact on designated groups;
• measures which promote diversity;
• making reasonable accommodation for people from
designated groups;
• retention, development and training of designated
groups (including skills development); and
• preferential treatment and numerical goals to ensure
equitable representation. This excludes quotas.
Note "preferential treatment"
c. Designated employers are not required to take any decision regarding an
employment policy or practice that would establish an absolute barrier to
prospective or continued employment or advancement of people not
from designated groups
This is where I feel for all the white guys out there who can't get into SAA due to employment quotas. Their arguement is sound that there are just no more black faces to employ
3.6 Employment Equity Plan: Section 20
a. A designated employer must prepare and implement a plan to achieve
employment equity, which must:
• have objectives for each year of the plan;
• include affirmative action measures;
• have numerical goals for achieving equitable
representation;
• have a timetable for each year;
• have internal monitoring and evaluation procedures,
including internal dispute resolution mechanisms; and
• identify persons, including senior managers, to monitor
and implement the plan.
Wheather SAA and other companies have done this, I can't comment, as I don't know
This is an extract from an act of parliment, and is by no means the whole ducument. It is law, and companies have to follow the letter of the law.

[Shrike200]

And let me throw in my 2c....

Afriviation:

a) I'm a white African - GET OVER IT.
b) I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH APARTHEID (too young)
c) Despite which, I get to watch less experienced people get into our national carrier ahead of me. I just have to suck it down, because thats current policy.

And I will suck it down, and still make a success of my career. Despite my having nearly a decade in the industry, you're in a better job than I am, all because of affirmative action. What, did you think you should be a Captain of a 300+ passenger airliner by now?! Just wait dude, the numbers will come. Experience takes TIME to build up. Likewise, with a greater number of black middle class people, there will be young black students with a passion for aviation who put in the time. When I see a couple of young black Grade II instructors putting in the hours at LFC, 43, or CFA then I'll know they're doing what we all do...

And the arguments against Zim instructors etc are valid - it's not because they're black, we just think it's highly likely that they'll suck badly. NOT because they're black, but because of the shambles Zim is in. And you can't tell me that the lowering of examination and test standards in the SAAF is a good thing can you?

[KESHO]

Bwana Afriviation,

GREAT POST! Has been discussed loads of times in the past, but obviously some issues are still quite volatile. I agree with your view that the split of white/black pilots is not as it should be. Both sides of the debate have had valuable points. But I find it scary to read so many replies that are mere personal insults even though we are living in the year 2006 already.

I am a white non-African male pilot.

Here is my two cells worth:
The reality of the issue is that South Africa as a country has not matured enough yet, which is only understandable owing to its history, to a level where a post such as yours could be posted without receiving as much criticism. The vast amount of replies proves this.

I fully agree with you that the current white/black ratio is not correct. But also would like to state that there is no shortcut route to gain experience. The system that has been enforced in the country regarding the employment equity is possibly not the best way to go about it. The whole problem is due to the aftermath of the apartheid era. It will take generations for things to get rectified.

Your post could have been aimed at just about any professional field (Doctors, Lawyers, and Architects etc.) within South Africa and the split would have been pretty much the same. These things my friend take time!
The continent is a great place to live in for its nature and weather, but it holds lots of issues that still need to be resolved. One must stop dwelling in the past and look into the future. One will not be able to move on until he has forgiven. It is always easier to apologise then to accept apology, but it is essential!

If Denmark, one of the most liberal and multi-cultured countries in the world and a 100% literacy rate has the current problems from only a newspaper cartoon about another nations belief, I think that South Africa with its 11 official languages and different peoples still has a long road ahead.

Thanks to your post things get discussed and people get to put themselves in others shoes.

Why cant Stevie Wonder read?
It is not because he is black…

K

[Jetstream_lover]

Dear Afriaviation,
I do not post much on PPRUNE, and when i do, i dont really get involved in politics! I can not really understand what you are going to acheive by your current posting, this is PPRUNE and you are not going to be able to change much. You speak about Direct entry Cadets being a threat to 'Pale Males', have you ever thought about the consequences of having a crew on the flightdeck which are not up to the standard (this is not just in africa, but in many other parts of the world). You speak about pale males who only get jobs due to who they know, once again, i know plenty of aviators pale, not so pale, and half pale who have battled for a long time to get the glorious first job (often underpaid, treated like dog poo and expoited like a worker in a Bombay sweatshop!!) You speak about Black pilots not going to the same bars with there pale male comrades, rubbish, i know from my experience and others that this issimply not the case. There are many good black pilots out there, and some not so good, as there is with any aviation fraternity in the world, some good, some not. I hate to say it, but there difference between Kenyan aviation etc, is that in many of these countries those pilots work up to KQ (airline) standards after being on 206's, Vans, Twotters, Kings Airs etc.
In SAA they (the cadets) tend to bypass the years of hard work (and experience) and go straight into a very very sought after and serious job.
Please wind you neck in and think about what you are posting, if you carry one you are basically accusing every PMP (pale male pilot) of being fundamentally racist!!!!!
Yours with the best regards
PS-Carry on like this you could be the next Riccardo Volante, and nobody wants that buddy!

[beechbum]

I see mighty mouse has been really quiet today!!!:rolleyes:
Slight change of topic but what happened to Riccardo Volante....was he banned for some reason or other?????:eek:

[Afriviation]

Hello Good People

Thanks for some of the latest insightful, objective and construcive responses. I wish to clarify some issues and send some points home here.

1. Standards
Some responses referred to maintaining Standards and so forth. Nowhere in my last posts whether directly or by implication did I purport the idea of lowering of standards. I am proud of the standards that have been set by the Aviation fraternity of this country and it is the same standards that I would like the non pales I'm dreaming of to maintain.
However it might mean that some of you imply that having non pales in the cockpit is lowering of standards by default.
A word of caution here though, Should some influential figure in the government notice this severe imbalance in this industry and decide to do something about it, then SA Aviation may be thrown into mayhem. One writer referred to the BEE procurement policies in engineering and it is this kind of Government intervention by some ignorant politician that could send the standards tumbling. I call upon Aviation comapnies to take a proactive approach to transformation and implement it to ensure complete control and prevent the degradation of Standards.

2. "It Takes Time"
I understand that transforming the industry will inevitably take time. My concern is that In SA it is taking more time than necessary. In my previous posts I made mention of the entire industry who have demonstrated inaction towards transformation in the last 12 years. I fear that these Companies would have done absolutely nothing in the next 12 years to come. Well this appoach is fatal as they are simply wishing it away. Doing so would be complying with the law as "say what" kindly shared with us the contents of the employment equity act.
The real problem is that SA Aviation does not have the commitment to transform. Countries that have this commitment have implemented time efficient measures to transfor their cockpits. Countries like Hong Kong (cathay), UAE (Emirates) Kenya (KQ) China etc have schemes that are 10 times faster than SA.

3. Government
Most replies suggested that I address my concerns to Governement. In principle that woud be an avenue, but I'm not sure it's the best one. Government has laid the framework in the form of laws etc. they have also implemented sponsorship schemes at their Aviation concerns i.e SAA and the Airfroce.
I do have a problem with how these schemes have been run. At SAA for example the Cadet Scheme is entrusted with a pale who used to Bomb MK bases in Angola. Naturally he is not committed to transformation. The statistics of that program which I'm not even going to quote are horrendous.
In the Airforce the pales were entrusted with Transformation and they also made a shambles out of it. Governement became sick and tired of the BS and harsher measures were put in lace which saw the exodus of some prejudiced Airforce officers. Those that remained were told to comply or leave. hence we found ourselves with the importation of Uncle Bob's pilots.
Now if Institutions in the direct control of Government are failing dismally because of the pales in charge there, what are the chances of pale owned Aviation Companies to implement any kind of transformation, I have to agree with you we wlll wait for a very long long time.

4. History

The legacy of apartheid cannot be left out in this debate. Most non pales do not even know that there's careers in Aviation. The only careers that are known are teaching nursing and so on. this can be attributed tot the system that kept them in the dark with most things in life. The first time I ever saw an aeroplane is when I was boarding one to the flying school my sponsor was sending me to. I never aspired to be a pilot from kindergarden. Flying for me at the time off course was a meal ticket. SOmeone started mentioning their personal circumstances as a pale. I never suggested that every pale person is rich. Neither did I suggest that this thread relates to my personal circumstances. Yes the fact of the matter is that there are more disadvantaged non pales, some of this even bordering on porverty. But that is a topic for another day.
Yes therefore there needs to be financial support to bring more non pales into aviation. In this day and age there are the more advantaged non pales who attend the so called "white" schools but guess what, these bright stars are snapped up by other business who know they have a duty by law to transform their Companies. SA Aviation simply hide behind "IT TAKES TIME" and find every possible excuse in under the sun why transformation is not happening
I wonder what will happen when labour inspectors start knocking on doors of aviation companies asking for their transformation scorecards. They'll probably be told "IT TAKES TIME".

It's interesting to see what pale South African Aviators think about transformation and hence the slow pace.

[Shrike200]

Nowhere in my last posts whether directly or by implication did I purport the idea of lowering of standards. I am proud of the standards that have been set by the Aviation fraternity of this country and it is the same standards that I would like the non pales I'm dreaming of to maintain. [snip]

Hey Dude - the SAAF has, without doubt, clearly visible on black and white, lowered it's standards. That sucks, and things like that weaken your cause.

[Shrike200]

Oh, and last time I checked, there had been precious few (IF ANY AT ALL!) black pilots applying at Nationwide, for example - how are companies like that supposed to 'transform' if they don't have anybody to 'transform' with? All black pilots get snapped up by SAA, so even if it was possible for Nwide to suck some black pilots with suitable experience out of their thumb, they'd be gone within months, if not weeks. Not much business sense in that now, is there? And you're not going to see a tight with cash company like Nwide paying for a cadet scheme - again, it makes absolutely no business sense whatsoever when you've got a million and one experienced guys out there just waiting in the wings for their turn.

Business is business. Financial reality is just that, money doesn't grow on trees -regardless of whether you're black or white.

[prospector]

Summary of the Employment Equity Act, 55 of 1998, issued in terms of
Section 25(1)
The purpose of the Act is to achieve equity in the workplace, by
a. promoting equal opportunity and fair treatment in employment through
the elimination of unfair discrimination; and
b. implementing affirmative action measures to redress the disadvantages
in employment experienced by designated groups, to ensure their
equitable representation in all occupational categories and levels in the
workforce.

Could someone please explain how you get equity in the workplace by implementing affirmative action??

You promote equal opportunity by implementing affirmative action?? Equal opportunity for all?? or a chosen majority?? now why was apartheid dropped?? was it just to change the colour of the players.

Is this what is meant by Promoting equal opportunity and fair treatment??

Does affirmative action in employment eliminate unfair discrimination??

Afrivation you answered your own question way back in your first post in this thread. First you need competent government, does this legislation come from competent Government??

Prospector.

[birdlady]

JG has a valid point. The government is not going to spent 100's of thousands of rands training 1 pilot when they could use the money to put a far greater amount of people through university.

The solution. Like the rest of us WORK FOR IT. :ok: :ok: :ok:

[bad]

As a matter of interest,please note what the affirmative action implemetation is permitted to do in terms of FAIR DISCRIMINATION.
The law provides for redress for an *employee who is subject to an unfair labour practice in the workplace.
An unfair labour practice includes any unfair act or omission that arises between an employer and employee, involving unfair discrimination, whether directly or indirectly, against an employee. (*employee includes an applicant for employment.)
Fair discrimination:
The law sets out four grounds on which discrimination is generally allowed-
i. Discrimination based on affirmative action;
ii. Discrimination based on the inherent requirement of a particular job;
iii. Compulsory discrimination by law; and
iv. Discrimination based on productivity
i. Discrimination based on affirmative action
Affirmative action measures are designed to promote employment equity (fairness in favour of the designated groups – blacks, women and disabled persons.) Affirmative action aims to achieve equality at work without lowering standards and without unduly limiting the prospects of existing employees, for example by getting rid of discrimination in company policies, procedures and practices. Its main aim is generally to ensure that the previously disadvantaged groups are fairly represented in the workforce of a particular employer.

ii. Discrimination based on the inherent requirements of a job
Any discrimination based on the inherent requirement of the particular job does not constitute unfair discrimination. An inherent requirement of a job depends on the nature of the job and required qualifications. If such requirements can be shown, discrimination will be fair, for example a person with extremely poor eyesight cannot be employed as an airline pilot.
iii. Fair compulsory discrimination by law
The law does not allow the employer to employ children under the age of 15 years, or pregnant women four weeks before confinement and six weeks after birth…
iv. Discrimination based on productivity
It is also fair by law for the employer to discriminate on the basis of productivity (for instance when giving merit based increases). This would of course be dependent on the fairness of the criteria utilized for assessing performance and productivity.
It is therefore correct for ALL employers to address the imbalances caused by our past by ensuring that designated groups are given a fair chance to penetrate this industry, especially those professions that were RESERVED for pales.
The transformation that needs to take place should not only be along the race representivity, but also along"the way we work". Unfortunately for all of us, those people that got preferential treatment pre 94 simply cannot imagine a world where there is a balance of anything. It is evident from the tone of some of the replies that there is a long way to go. The reason is simple: It has become the culture of most pales to see the advancement of any black as a major threat. So great is the feeling of insecurity that the capacity to stop and think, to observe, to adjust, to review to CHANGE is lost! Childhood indoctrination is indeed a powerful thing....more powerful than mere common sense!
it is true that the training of aviation personnel is very costly, and that perhaps there are so many competing priorities for the govt (like housing, education health etc) that it does not get the attention it deserves.(Please try to recall that these priorities are only there because the govt had to start from scratch on most issues of service delivery in 94....there was simply too little in place. What there was, was intended to serve and benefit a very small select portion of the population!....so well done ANC, THERE HAS BEEN TREMENDOUS PROGRESS!) but please aviators, give it a chance. DONT deliberately go out of your way to frustrate the process. STOP THE HATE!:rolleyes:

[bad]

To Prospector:
It is true that the pales have had a head start. (even YOU must admit that!) In fact I think the statistic is that 80 percent of the wealth of RSA is controlled by about 9% of the population. That 9% is over 75% pale. In view of the obvious reluctance of the pales to accept change and do their bit to balance out these obvious skews....the government had to put in place some laws that compel everyone to act towards achieving EQUITY! Affirmative Action aims to do exactly that. As Afri said.....change willingly or it will be thrust upon us!In any case, if we stop the disrespect and the hate, we will sooner rather than later achieve sufficient transformation to not need the EE ACT. Believe me, black people are prepared to work hard for their stripes. They just dont understand why there is always so much negativity where their efforts are concerned. Incidentally, how would you suggest the government achieve a better balance of wealth, power, training oppotunities, jobs etc. Perhaps you have some thoughts that could be useful!:=

[prospector]

Bad,

bad To Prospector:
"It is true that the pales have had a head start. (even YOU must admit that!) "

Why??? have we been on this earth longer than anyone else to get this head start?? Or perhaps could it be that have we managed to produce people who, when they are in public office, use public money for what it was intended??? One of those being to produce places of learning for the people to bring all up to a higher standard, rather than sending the monies to a secret bank account?

To change the rules that have been proven over time to be successful, to fit in with what in effect is just to do away with hard work, dedication to get qualifications, as in the aviation world, and those others that rely on the law of physics, the laws dont change because of the colour of ones skin, they have to be learnt. There is no appeal court for mistakes due to lack of knowledge in the aviation world.

Oh, and by the way, you dont have to look far to the North to see why some people are concerned.
Prospector

[Brian_Dunnigan]

"However it might mean that some of you imply that having non pales in the cockpit is lowering of standards by default. "

"Most of the aircraft in this country are owned locally, some are dry leased from Europe and the rest of the world, then why can't most of the majority population groups of this country be seen flying these aircraft???"

"The notion of non pale pilots getting things the easy way is totally skewed. If it were not for these schemes there wouldn't be as much lack pilots as there are today, not because they are lazy but because Aviation is expensive more so for someone living in poverty."

"For now nothing much has been asked from the Aviation Community by the government. There are laws and everyone chooses to ignore (affrimative Action, BEE etc). The government has imposed its own schemes in the companies it has direct control over. Unfortunately some of these resources have been missappropriated by those wanting to retain the status quo and the progress has subsequently been put into reverse thrust."

These 4 quotes by you answer, or allude to answer, your own issues and questions about transformation.
I'll bet money that the majority of the population will vote for the status quo and that the same mob will be in power after the next general election.
Why is this so?
Because, Afri, the majority rules.That is, that the same guys and gals in office will make the same decision as they do now and despite you not liking their decisions, it is not up to private industry to change the way in which they do business if it means no profit and no worthwhile income.

Say ABC Ltd wants to estabish a cargo carrier to transport freight from JHB to KIN in DR Congo. Why should they risk millions on training people that may (and I emphasise may) not make it through the training when they can hire qualified pilots at no training cost to get money rolling in?

Standards are lost when people get "put through" a system because it is PC to do so.

I fly often near the Kimberley region of Oz and I want to know the guy or gal I'm with can do the job and get me down with cargo or pax safely and that we don't encounter the occasional tropical cyclone or other meteorological anomaly which does mean decisions have to be made.

Not all people are suited to this job either Afri, and with decreasing interest in Maths and Science in many nations around the globe, you have to admit the pool of talent is drying up!

You still have not answered whether you will be or are supporting someone to get into the industry.

Until you have done this, then I really don't think that you are serious and are just rabble-rousing.

As for the other posts about your views being in the wrong forum and going to MPs and/or Parliament, they are spot on, but you already know what your answer will be if you tried to speak to the comrades, eh?

Lighten up, Afri, you have a great opprtunity to show some kid that aviation is a go for them, but I'm doubting whether you'll follow through...

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Oh what fun!!
Someone has raised the old hoary chestnut that 10% of the population control 90% of the wealth. So absolutely what? This is the state of affairs in almost any country in the world, even in the Communist rump. It is a completely normal economic occurence and is therefore a drum of hollow beating.
You're not going to get a mass of suitable black candidates for pilotage candidacy until there is a black middle class sufficiently affluent and educated from which to recruit such quality individuals.
The last thing that the emerging black wealthy want is a developing middle class. This statement holds true whether such riches have been honestly gained or not. The middle class is a dangerous beast to those who belt down the Nicoll Highway in black BMWs on their way to Investment Cars. No Communist state has ever done anything with the middle class except to attempt to exterminate it. Remove the intellectuals and the dismemberment of that strata of society commences!
Oh no indeed - It is far less to the advantage of the black on the make that there should be a middle class than it is to the white who has already reached a position of affluence. In the latter case, he needs a middle class to sustain him in the position of economic stability which he has already attained. In the former case, the establlishment of a black middle acts as an ABS on the rise to untold riches in the new South Africa. The middle classes do not like the rich and, unlike the poorer classes, they have the means to make life very difficult for those intent on self aggrandisement.
It is not correct to blame the white man for the suppression of the formation of a middle class, the one social development which would ensure the success and true equality in all respects for the black in Africa. Some of you should look within your own ranks for the culprits. I'll wager that those with the most new wealth, those who milk and drain the country, whose relatives have taken the most advantage of the nepotistic opportunities available in this new South Africa are amongst those who most fear the rise of the dreaded middle class!:eek:
(Dear Moderators,
Sorry, I cannot see the need to pussy foot around with pales, non pales, half pales or even empty buckets as a euphemism for those who might be mentally challenged. No offence is intended by the use of black and white and I should think it a shame if it were taken.):)

[Afriviation]

Why??? have we been on this earth longer than anyone else to get this head start?? Or perhaps could it be that have we managed to produce people who, when they are in public office, use public money for what it was intended??? One of those being to produce places of learning for the people to bring all up to a higher standard, rather than sending the monies to a secret bank account?


Well Prospector need I remind you that the average person in this country had land, livestock, dignity and culture until some people docked on our shores and robbed them of everything they had, made them second class citizens and enslaved them.

Next time you wonder how the pales got this headstart, you must know it was from theft and exploitation and that applies to the rest of Africa.

Nobody is asking for the return of the stolen goods. Non Pales also need to partake in the fun filled activities like flying. They are capable of flying planes and maintaining standards remeber the Tuskegee Airmen.

These 4 quotes by you answer, or allude to answer, your own issues and questions about transformation.
I'll bet money that the majority of the population will vote for the status quo and that the same mob will be in power after the next general election.
Why is this so?
Because, Afri, the majority rules.That is, that the same guys and gals in office will make the same decision as they do now and despite you not liking their decisions, it is not up to private industry to change the way in which they do business if it means no profit and no worthwhile income.


I do not dispute that most of you would prefer the minority to rule. That will not happen. the minority is far too greedy, they want things for themselves and themselves only. You just have to look at the responses to this thread. People moan endlessly at the government having sponsored non pale Cadets and these cadets being placed at SAA and so forth. So much has been taken away from these humble people. Something has to be given back.
I have no issues with the government, yes they have their flaws like any other government but they've given to the non pale people more opportunity than the pale gaovernment had done in 40 years of ruling this country in just 12 years.

But BD what happens in schemes like SAA and the Airforce is that they are entrusted to pales who because they are not true to the cause, ensure that these schemes do not produce the significant numbers governement could have hoped for. Imagine for example if you could get prospector to run a cadet scheme. He would make sure that as few non pales as possible make it through or even use the funds to sponsor more pale people.

C'mon people everybody deserves a slice of the cake, be liberal and start sharing.

[Knoppiesdoorn]

According to the news report last night, The President has appealed for the SA pale faces in New Zealand to return, as we need them/ skills.

In the same news bulletin, we saw fotos of a once flourishing farm: now a just a scrapheap and dead trees being chopped up for fire wood. I hear that in the north the failure rate of farms, handed over, are a 100 %.

But according to Afriviation we are moving too slow.......... pray that we never have to see dead bodies on the ground as we saw the dead orange trees.

Time is a great healer..........patience, pse.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

I very much doubt that either Shaka Zulu who destroyed the clan structure in Natal or Mzilikazi, for that matter, would agree with you that something has to be given back to the conquered by the conqueror.
Black tribal history hardly has a record of charitable reparation.
Why then, you cannot expect the white man, having been victorious in your eyes, to adhere to a different code of reimbursive conduct than you would historically expect to find from your own kind.

The Tuskegee Airmen? A noble bunch of warriors who contributed much in spite of the fact that they were trained at segregated facilites. Patriotism is a word that springs to mind when reflecting upon their sacrifices.
I wonder why there would appear to be a paucity of scholarships such as 'Young Eagles' or youth programmes established by the newly rich enfranchised ones to advance the talented ones within their own cultural identity. No matter; I have my doubts that philanthropy was a characterisitic of those tribes which, moving southwards some hundreds of years ago, virtually exterminated the Bushmen in order to seize their land for grazing. The Boer too did his bit. After the Bushman crumbled before the Hottentot so the Hottentot crumbled before the Boer but that persecution was not so much because the Hottentot was black and savage but rather because he was a pagan. The Hottentot, as well as the Boer, hunted the Bushman for sport. All quite inexcusable! But so goes history down its murky path.

In order to advance the progress of blacks in the field of aviation, or any other for that matter, I would look to the creation of charitable foundations on the part of those individuals or groups that have benefited so much from the policy of black empowerment, which is even now, to a certain degree, destroying overseas confidence in investment programmes in South Africa.
I rather think that those who have recently gouged out chunks of the cake should start sprinkling a few crumbs at the feet of their own.:oh:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

What I see here from Afriman and Bad is a lot of unsabstantiated claims about how white folks want to see blacks downtrodden and denied an equal place in society. That chip on your shoulder is blocking your view of reality, guys. Level playing fields mean just that - Level, no discrimination. Unfortunately, what you seem to want is a fast track to everything and life just doesn't work that way. Social engineering has failed pretty much everywhere it's been tried, SA for one and now you want to start that crap all over again? Come on, think about it... We've just ditched one lot of problem children and now you want to play that game all over again. Allow things to reach and maintain a natural balance and it should run a lot more smoothly. AA should only be practiced in cases where qualifications of both parties being acceptable for the job, the previously disadvantaged candidate should get preference. The current policy of putting people in positions of authority because they have the correct pigmentation, rather than qualifications is wrong. I'm not referring to aviation here so don't go off half cocked. The aviation sector appears somewhat out of kilter with what's goin on in the rest of the country for this very reason. Certain qualifications and standards are required and any black person who has them is immediately snapped up by the national carrier. Unfortunately, getting those qualifications is a long, hard road as has been stated previously and the remuneration isn't on par with the effort put in, thus a lot of likely candidates are taking a different career path and only those with a real passion or daddy's money are succeeding. I have no problem working with black colleagues and I'm pretty sure most white folks don't either, but being passed over in favour of a less qualified individual after years of dedication, whether black or white, doesn't sit well with people. If the qualifications are in place there's no problem employing or promoting that person and if a black candidate takes preference over a white candidate, not a problem, as long as there is an equitable level of experience and know how. Promoting or employing someone blatantly inexperienced and unqualified as has been the norm in some sectors only fosters resentment and an atmosphere of disharmony. I've taken the rap to cover a black colleague who screwed up in Kenya and he later became the Chief Pilot of the outfit we worked for. I have no problem with that. He learnt from his mistake, got over it and got on with it. As a captain I felt it wasn't a wasted lesson. He didn't sit pissing and moaning about how unfair things were, but put more effort into improving the weak areas and it paid off.

Two wrongs don't make a right and SA is perilously close, if not already in the middle of repeating past mistakes.

Come on guys, wake up. Your hatred for the white man is clouding your judgement. (Now I'm playing your little unsubstantiated assumption game. Gets up your nose, doesn't it....?):hmm:

[cavortingcheetah]

:)
A most sound, measured and erudite judgement from Planet Tharg!:D
Leaves me in almost the Oscar Wildean state of:
'I wish I had said that.':cool:

[saywhat]

If the qualifications are in place there's no problem employing or promoting that person and if a black candidate takes preference over a white candidate, not a problem, as long as there is an equitable level of experience and know how.
This is exactly the arguement that the blacks have! They will not, for the next generation at least,have equal experience. It is just not possible to manufacture experience from thin air. Did previously dissadvantaged CEO's of major companies have the experience their white counterparts had? NO! Don't get me wrong, I'm not argueing their point, I'm just putting it foreward. There has to be a solution that both parties can live with, or I'm affraid the whites will lose, as the law is not on their side.
Somehow, we as whites are going to have to eat a little humble pie, and allow a black captain to take up a possition with less experience than we might have. That, I'm affraid is a fact, and if we as whites can not live with it the only alternative is to find another airline to work for.
OOPS, that won't work, as you will join on the seniority list at the bottom, and be more experienced than someone who will get command before you. Does that now make the whole system flawed, I DON'T THINK SO!!!!
As I said in my first post, I don't have the answer, I'm just grappling with how best to deal with it.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Would that not compromise safety, Saywhat? I'm sure SAA doesn't need any more scandal to help drive the final nails into the coffin. As it is, PD crewmembers have already been bumped up the seniority list, not something a white pilot can expect.:hmm:

What to do?

[saywhat]

It might, and that is exactly where the problem lies. There is no easy solution, and the difficult solution will certainly ruffle feathers. I hope one of our fellow PPruners out there might just have the right answer that both parties would be able to live with. This person would have my vote in the election coming up.
ALFRED E NEWMAN for President! (Does Mad magazine even still exist?)

[VS -1500 fpm]

Afriviation, do you know how glad the blacks can be that the whites did land on African shores. You would not have had a car nor this Aircraft you are flying around in! (the whites designed it!)

Do you think South Africa would have had such world class airports if we were not here? Have you seen what the rest of Africa looks like? (I guess not, because you did not have to work on contract like the rest of us to get where we are today!) The day the whites left the other african countries, everything came to a standstill!!

If the whites never arrived in SA, you wouldn't even know what the wheel is. And did you know that most of the African tribes in SA, are tribes that was chased out of other african countries for murdering and raping their woman hundreds of years ago. The only ones that should be here are Zulu's, Hotnot and the San in the Northern parts.

The rest of u are all thieves, but dont worry, you cant do anything about it. Its in your blood!

[Afriviation]

Everyone seems to take this to the level of the Airline and so forth. guys come on wake up this is not about SAA, it's about the entire Aviation Industry from the flying schools right up to the big airlines.
A friend of mine once did a little experiment for me just to show how racist the industry is
One of the Charter Companies in Bonaero Park was looking for pilots. So my friend (indian) took me along to these people. He enquired at the desk if he could be cosidered for a freelance job. The lady told him no you had to have a comm and at least 500 hours. He advised the lady that he had an ALTP, Instructors Rating and more than 4000 hours mostly on Jets. Oh in that case you can leave your CV and i'm sure we'll get back to you. Which he did. And guess what? up to this day he never had a word from them.

So please don't come with this experience mambo jambo. Aviation in SA is still biased towards the pales. I'm sure there are educated non pales who have served in these Companies loyally for years. Are they ever considered for training as a pilot, seeing that there is this severe imbalance, ney?

Most of you also know this fact, The issue of how many hours one needs to have before getting into any particular organisation is based on the supply demand issue. The hour requirement in SA today is not based on safer operations, yes it' will be a by-product. Companies know that there are a lot of Qualified and experience pilots out there and they can therefore pick and choose who they want.

If Aviation can pick up to a point that these qualified people are depleted, then I kid you not SAA would take 250 hour pilots directly and put them through an intense training program.
In the countries I have mentioned in my post You will know that Cadets are taken directly from the flying school to the right hand seat of a passenger airliner in some cases mind you without compromising safety or standards.

Experience is beneficial in Flying and any other job but anyone knows that inherent ability is even more important. There are inexperienced pilots out there who outperform pilots with thousands of hours, which is why the Seniority System is in my view a whole load of kak. People simply being guranteed Senior Positions because of the years they've spent in an organisation?

The unfortunate thing about this is, it will never go away unless there is some reasonable kind of representation. The industry can procrastinate all they like but it will always be a blemish in SA Aviation

[saywhat]

After reviewing the last comment from VS-1500 for a long while, I somehow don't think that that will do it. I'm looking for a slightly more constructive idea.

[VS -1500 fpm]

O sorry saywhat, I thought that might help.:E

[Afriviation]

Well VS_1500 they screwed it up. they should have developed everyone in the country and not leave the "natives" in the doldrums. We wouldn't be having this discussion today.

[VS -1500 fpm]

As they say, every man for himself. That is why I'm not even shocked by what the gov. is doing with affirm. action. The whites would have done the same if they were stil in power. Black and white just doesn't mix that well! :suspect:

[Afriviation]

but surely something has to be learnt there. you can't keep taking for yourself all the time, at some point it will backfire. that's whats happening here, Thank God I'm still the only one moaning about it. Wait until a guy like Mluleki George is tasked to facilitate transformation in SA Aviation. Believe me all the aspirant pale pilots haven't seen anything. Why does it have to go to that level. Can't the industry correct whats wrong even if it's just being seen to try something?

[saywhat]

Afriavation, I speak about SAA, as it is the only company that I am aware of that has a cadet pilot program in place. Previously, I was employed in the charter market. I can assure you that the story you told avout the CV, although, I'm sure true, has happened to every white kid looking for a job. Sad reality is that (and I tell you this from experience) there is no easy way to tell a person you don't have a job for them, so you tell them nothing. I can also assure you that in my flying career (23 years), there were no sponsorship programs available outside of the SAAF. Small charter companies not only simply cannot afford to pay the money to sponsor students, but there is no reason for them to, as there are enough pilots out there to feed the monster.
Anyway, ultimately I am a person who likes answers rather than questions. How do you suggest that we can redress the situation? The fact that not enough is happening, although perhaps valid is not an answer, it's a problem.
I suggest that someone should start a flying school, and train young black pilots for free. They will need lots of sponsorship, however, I'm sure that the right person might even raise it. I am convinced that I would be able to scrounge up a few instructors to give some free instruction as their debt to society. Do you think this is possible? Object of the exercise would be to churn out young previously disadvantaged Com pilots.
How about it?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Everyone seems to take this to the level of the Airline and so forth. guys come on wake up this is not about SAA, it's about the entire Aviation Industry from the flying schools right up to the big airlines.
A friend of mine once did a little experiment for me just to show how racist the industry is
One of the Charter Companies in Bonaero Park was looking for pilots. So my friend (indian) took me along to these people. He enquired at the desk if he could be cosidered for a freelance job. The lady told him no you had to have a comm and at least 500 hours. He advised the lady that he had an ALTP, Instructors Rating and more than 4000 hours mostly on Jets. Oh in that case you can leave your CV and i'm sure we'll get back to you. Which he did. And guess what? up to this day he never had a word from them.



Now you and your friend know how I feel every day. I'm ATP rated with more hours and probably more types than he has but battling to get work. Small rainforests have died to provide paper for all my CVs sent.:(

I'm one of those who slept under the aircraft in the veldt to be available to the owners and operators to build hours. I've hiked 300km on the promise of a half hour ferry for free on a small aircraft and then hiked home again when it's done. That was my weekend shot. I'm one of those who's been abused by companies not paying salaries and leaving crews in the lurch. I've been shot at, taken hostage, bombed and jailed while trying to earn a living but apparently it's not enough. I've fetched the bodies of colleagues in Jiffy bags when they were murdered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. What would you have the white crews do? Roll over and die? Leave the country (Even Mad Bob wants the farmers back.)?


Mluleki George sounds like a bit of a problem child if what you're intimating is true. Discriminating against a racial group is racism any way you look at it. It's been tried before in this country and it hasn't worked. Why do they think it'll work now?

[Shrike200]

One of the Charter Companies in Bonaero Park was looking for pilots. So my friend (indian) took me along to these people. He enquired at the desk if he could be cosidered for a freelance job. The lady told him no you had to have a comm and at least 500 hours. He advised the lady that he had an ALTP, Instructors Rating and more than 4000 hours mostly on Jets. Oh in that case you can leave your CV and i'm sure we'll get back to you. Which he did. And guess what? up to this day he never had a word from them.

Ooooooh! He didn't automatically get a job that he was well qualified for! Gee, thats never happened to any of us before! Please note the very heavy sarcasm. That happens all the time to people like us who actually have to look for our work - I don't suppose you would have had much experience with that now, would you?

And I'd still like to know where smaller companies are going to magically get black pilots from. SAA is the only one who can do it, because they can take MY tax money and turn it into a cadet scheme - not a luxury that anybody else can afford. You complain that we don't do enough, but every month, the government takes a lot of the money I worked hard for, and chucks it into some or other program to uplift black people! Should I donate some of my blood too?

You think black pilots are being excluded? What planet are you on? - they get PUT ON THE PATH to the best jobs in aviation nowdays! They just need to put in the time, and they'll be in what most would consider the pinnacle jobs of a career in civil aviation in a few years time! IN A FEW YEARS - give it some time, you can't generate 10 years of experience in 5. And I don't care what others think - imagine if an SAA aircraft was to have a major accident, and it came out that a pilot (who cares what colour) was made Captain of that aircraft despite having lower levels of experience than some of the other pilots who would have been up for the job, but couldn't get it because of some biased policy? How would that look in court, or the eyes of the flying public?

"Oh yeah, we knew we had more experienced guys out there but we thought 'bugger that for a lark, we'll use this guy instead, I'm sure he'll do fine!'" What do you think that would make SAA management look like? Good or bad?

So, come on, please - show me where I'm being biased. Please spell out to me how I should change my attitude. Did I say something racist? Come on, I need to hear! Just where is my attitude incorrect? You think I want to 'cling to power'? I never had any! And I had nothing to do with apartheid! Don't try and ram guilt or something down my throat, I feel none.

[jon doe]

"The first time I ever saw an aeroplane is when I was boarding one to the flying school my sponsor was sending me to."
If that was the first time you saw an aeroplane, then when did you decide to become a pilot or even become interested in aviation, I am sure you must have seen these metal birds before and wonder what they are and how they work before you applied for the job, or was it just an add you answered to or something to do?( Cadet scheme)

[Dct no speed]

Afri Old Chap!

Please answer this:

Let me start by saying to become a pilot is not easy, you need to have a special "something" the same for becomming a ATC. It is not just about how well you did in school or how clever you are or nothing like that at all!

I have friends that have BSC Master's Degrees but could not make it as pilots or ATC's. That does not make them dumb or anyone a racist!

YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DONT!!!!!!:ok:

If, as you stated the entire industry is at fault, I must have to agree. The SAAF has a max number of hours to achieve the required standard, if you did not make the grade pre 1994 you packed your bags. Lots and lots of pale wanna be pilots had to go ! They did not have what it took! Some made it in the civil sector good on them they tried harder !

HOWEVER since 1994 a different story .....you dont make the grade....then you blame the same instructors that send other non pale pilots solo for beeing racist.You go to the chief of the Airforce and blame people with Thousands of hours flying for you short commings . And woooooosh ! You get put back on course you get trained again and again in the mean time you are standing in the way of possible other humans that actually have what it takes to make it, this is called selfish!

I have to agree with Shrike 200 it has happend to al lot of pales, "thanks for aplying we will call you " but they never say what year. This is called unprofessionalism not racism.

Please only cast the stones if your own house is not build of glass!:ok:

[Brian_Dunnigan]

"I do not dispute that most of you would prefer the minority to rule. That will not happen. the minority is far too greedy, they want things for themselves and themselves only. You just have to look at the responses to this thread. People moan endlessly at the government having sponsored non pale Cadets and these cadets being placed at SAA and so forth. So much has been taken away from these humble people. Something has to be given back.
I have no issues with the government, yes they have their flaws like any other government but they've given to the non pale people more opportunity than the pale gaovernment had done in 40 years of ruling this country in just 12 years.

But BD what happens in schemes like SAA and the Airforce is that they are entrusted to pales who because they are not true to the cause, ensure that these schemes do not produce the significant numbers governement could have hoped for. Imagine for example if you could get prospector to run a cadet scheme. He would make sure that as few non pales as possible make it through or even use the funds to sponsor more pale people.

C'mon people everybody deserves a slice of the cake, be liberal and start sharing."

Again, Afri, you still do not acknowledge the influence you can have and continue to point fingers at others.

The problem is your attitude. You continue to assert that others owe you something. They owe you nothing mate!

Share with whom? As someone has mentioned previously, there is a lack of qualified candidates who bother to apply at some places.

You are so focused on race, mate, that I don't think that you can be safe in a cockpit as any disagreement will be considered as a racial issue by you. I worked once with a guy like you, saying the same rubbish and, guess what?
His ass was fired when he was taken to a tribunal and found out to be a liar!

You defend the ANC's record in government by, surprise, surprise, comparing it to the previous regime.

You just can't move forward, can you?

Apartheid as a government policy died in 1994 but every chance you get, you will hark back to the past, even though an entire generation of school children matriculated last year under the new regime.
It is people like you who hold your brethren back...you still do not commit to helping one of them in aviation but, instead, are content to blame others for failings in an entire industry.

You disgust me.

I only hope to God that the younger black, Asian and white lads will sweep the likes of you out and get SA moving ahead as "Afrithink" is a non-starter that has held much of Africa back by blaming colonisation for failing of political will.

I have no time for your kind, Afri...you are old think...the future does not belong to you as you see only race and to be honest, many will not want to work with you.

I suggested that you meet more non-black pilots. This is because many of them have been turned down at many airlines despite having more experience than you and me combined...it generally is that you are not the one they want and you could do nothing about it. How to resolve this? Move on, try somewhere else and get on with life.

Afri, to be honest, I don't like you, many here don't either, but I'll tell you to your face.It's not because you're black, it's that you, as some one said before, praat (speak) KAK!

All the best to you Afri, you're going to need all the luck you can get the way you think!

[Heli_Sticktime]

Well said Brian, you summed it up in a nutshell:ok:

Hope Afri's not originally from Cuba:}

[Pale_ZA_Male]

BEE is a bold attempt to bring equality to previously disadvantaged people. The BEE scorecard for South African business, the issue that is driving this thread, is divided up into: Owership, management, employment equity, procurement, skills development, social spend & enterprise spend. The maximum points for any element is 20 (some score 10) so not one thing on its own gives a company a good BEE rating.

The motivation is as quite simple. People in poverty have absolutely NO chance of getting out of the poverty trap without assistance. The social spend is aimed at social upliftment - addressing the poverty issues directly. The skills training is intended to provide these people with skills that industry need so that they can start climbing the ladder and to get out of poverty. These skills include becoming a pilot. For those that want to go it on their own, the enterprise spend which is a measure of cash or effort (such as business mentoring) is provided to assist budding entrepenuers. For those who want to go the employee route, employment equity dicatates that a business must have black representation throughout their hierarchy. This translates to opportunity for previously disadvantaged people to achieve management positions within a business. Procurement i.e. companies from whom you procure services, is the driving force to make all downstream companies play ball. If they are not BEE compliant, it drags your score down so the incentive exists to buy from BEE compliant companies. Ownership and management at board level are obviously the final prize that the system is coming of age. Despite reports in the media, ownership is not everything. The process is not intended to make billionaires out a few as is popularly reported, despite the ardent efforts of the same few to suggest that ownership is everything.

If you are a white male in South Africa, accept the fact that a fairly good attempt has been made by government to drive transformation through business. Obviously at the expense of white males who have had an unfettered reign on control for 90 years or more. Perhaps if all white males are so brilliant as some of the commentators in this strip are suggesting, they should all start up their own businesses and become employers rather than so desperately wanting to become an employee, something that over 25% of South Africa's population is also fighting to do. Consider the hostage taking incident for the unissued ID book at the department of home affairs, just so he could apply for a job - you really think you got problems? Alternatively, if the government is taking too long about it, they can always do a Bob. Or they can adopt a well meaning US policy and take half the kids in every suburbian school and bus them across town to the local farm school and take half the kids from every farm school and put them in all the suburbian schools. In twelve years we would all be equal. Wouldn't that just bring tears to your eyes. South Africa by all calculations should have been a bloodbath in the early 90's in which case this is all academic. Whites would not be here.

Best then we learn to deal with what is a reasonable attempt by a government that is actually performing better than any white government in history. Corruption exists everywhere and in every country. It is not a black only thing. Neither do they have a monopoly on stupidy, laziness or aids. Get a grip, its a country that is trying to be built, not an ego.

[saywhat]

Move over Alfred E Newman. Pale ZA Man you got my vote. With any luck, SA has more level headed thinkers like him than hot heads like some other posters.

[TMAguide]

Its amazing how guilty (in my opinion for no reason!!) white South Africans feel. Come on man. Get over that ****!!

Afri...you just stirring kak china, and for the life of me I can't understand why all these good people are taking ur bait??

Anyway....Sharks are leading....

[Heli_Sticktime]

Pale Male, get a life, do you actually own a business in SA? I do, and I employ 35 people, BEE is an absolute joke when you go into it! It's more about a case of whisky, REALLY!

Don't come with the ID story, that's the govermnet that was voted in by the "people" ten years ago, not the pales, as you call yourself. All this PC crap really gets on my ti:mad: s.

People I know are losing out on contracts because they are not BEE when they are a one person business, what must they do? Any bright suggestions?

Let's get back to aviation and let the politicians fight this out:bored:

[Afriviation]

Well Say What there are avenues that exist in SA today. An ATO can always to TETA for a sponsorship grant to train a previously disadvantaged pilot. I know of one or two chopper schools that have done that succesfully.

The next most important issue is awareness. Have you been to an airshow lately? Very few or zero non pale faces there. What does it cost to invite say 100 kids from a nearby township, transport them to the airshow and pay for their entrance fee. This could spark the interest. Remember these kids do not have uncles, brothers, family friends or neighbours who are aviators to look up to. This could bring about the next generation of self sponsored non pale aviators.

BD your deep hatred for me is noted. I didn't post this thread to make friends or be liked. The issue I'm talking about is a reality, i'm not distorting the truth. In fact none of the posters have disputed the facts or stats I have referred to. If everyone liked me then there wouldn't have been a problem. I am hated because what i am raising is an issue that exists because of attitudes of people like you

If I'm not mistaken you're from Aussie. Perhaps i should credit you because you're shooting from the dark. Well let me invite you to learn a thing or 2 about this country. This country has a 3rd world which is by far bigger than the 1st world. it would be in the interest of the citizens of this country to have all of it 1st world like yours. If you're stiill not convinced, let me tell you mate the non pales in here will not go the same route as the aboriginals. they will rise up have, skills and be counted as amongst the best in the world. No one is asking you to sponsor an aboriginal for pilot training anyway.

It is the duty of the citizens as much as it is for the government to develop this country into the greatest. that will not be achieved if the masses of the population are left in the doldrums everyone must be developed to their fullest potential.

I have said enough this morning to earn another dose of hatred

[Solid Rust Twotter]

"Afri, to be honest, I don't like you, many here don't either, but I'll tell you to your face.It's not because you're black, it's that you, as some one said before, praat (speak) KAK!"


"BD your deep hatred for me is noted."

Hatred? That's all in your mind, boet, as is the fantasy world you inhabit. People have tried to explain to you what happens but you remain in your ivory tower and make proclamations you expect all and sundry to follow while arrogantly accusing them of deeds which have no basis in fact and for which you have no proof.

As for TETA and SETA, a friend who owns a flying school and an AMO pays into this fund every month but when he asks if he can have his employees trained (black, by the way) he is not even afforded the courtesy of a reply from the fatcats running things. He hasn't taken home a salary in four months but his employees were paid a bonus in December. It's not as rosy as you might think.

I get the idea that you're out of touch with the reality of what goes on in business and that you think all the one man shows and entrepeneurs are raking it in. WRONG!

[Afriviation]

SRT, as the old saying goes "Where there's a will there's a way". In SA Aviation there's now will to transform. Excuse after the other is the order of the day. Well you can hate me all you like, the fact remains. This is an African country. Sooner or later the cockpits will have to be transformed to reflect the demographics of this country. You can thank me for highlighting that this is an imminent change that you're not in a state of shock when it all unfolds.

This is a truly inspiring story, sad to know that most pale aviators in SA today are still as prejudiced as they were in Mr. Anderson's times.

Timeless Voices of Aviation "Voice of the Week" - Charles Anderson
February 20, 2004 - In celebration of African American History Month, this week's "Voice" was one of the leading factors behind the success of the famed Tuskegee Airmen. Charles Alfred "Chief" Anderson (1907-1996) was the Chief Flight Instructor of the initial Civilian Pilot Training Program at the Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama in the late 1930s, which would later became the "Tuskegee Experiment" to prove whether or not blacks could become military aviators. Under his direction and guidance, the Tuskegee pilots would go on to become the 99th Pursuit Squadron, and later the highly successful 332nd Fighter Group - famous for never losing a bomber to enemy fighters while under their protection. EAA's Vintage Division interviewed Chief during the 1992 EAA Oshkosh Fly-In/Convention.
Charles Alfred Anderson was born February 9, 1907 to Janie and Iverson Anderson of Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. Sent to live with his grandmother in Stanton, Virginia, as a young boy living in the Shenandoah Valley he developed an overwhelming interest in airplanes and flight. "When I was 8 years old my grandmother took care of me and we lived in Stanton, Virginia. It was in the Shenandoah Valley there - famous for when the Confederate Army marched through it on their way to Gettysburg. At that time I had heard rumors about airplanes landing in the valley somewhere. I always wanted to see one and see what it was like, because I was hemmed in in that valley and couldn't see anything with the mountains on my left and mountains on my right. I thought if I could get in an airplane, at least I could see what was on the other side of the mountain."
"So I would run way from home to try and find these airplanes that supposedly landed in the valley. It upset my grandmother so much, and with the criticism of the neighbors saying that she had this crazy grandson, she sent me back to my mother who lived in Pennsylvania. So Grandmother put me on a train and sent me back home to my mother!"
By that point it was all over for Chief - he had caught the aviation bug hard and heavy and could not get the idea of flying out of his head, as he explained. "When my mother took me back to Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, I did the same thing I did in Virginia with my grandmother - I ran away to see airplanes!"
When he was 13, Chief applied to the Drexel Institute Aviation School, but was denied admission because of his race. When he was a bit older he tried to join the Army to become a pilot, but was again rejected because of the color of his skin. He didn't let those setbacks get in his way. "I was so determined to learn to fly that I decided the only way I was actually going to be able to fly was to buy my own airplane. It was unfortunate, but in those days it was taboo for an instructor to teach a colored boy to fly an airplane. So I couldn't even get a ride in an airplane. So I said to myself, 'I am going to fly and airplane, so I'm going to have to buy one!'"
"I bought a Vielie Monocoupe," Chief continued. "I borrowed money - I didn't have any money to buy one with, so I borrowed money from friends and relatives. This thing was going to cost $2500 - I borrowed up to $2000 and got stuck on the last $500. My dad worked for a fine lady there in Bryn Mawr, a Mrs. Wright, who owned a boarding school for wealthy young white ladies. Well I was going around and borrowing money from all the folks that worked there. Well my dad found out and told me it would disturb Mrs. Wright to know that I was running around borrowing money. Well she found out and asked my dad, 'What is he borrowing money for?' He said, 'To buy an airplane.' She said, 'To buy an airplane???' He said, 'That's right - he wants to buy an airplane.' She said, 'Well how much does he want?' He said, '$500.' She said, '$500? I'll just give him $500 then!' Which she did! Then I bought my airplane."
That was fairly extraordinary for the time! For a wealthy white woman during the 1920s to give $500 to a young, poor black man was unheard of, yet alone to buy an airplane of all things, but Chief Anderson's determination won Mrs.Wright over, and he was able to purchase his Monocoupe. Now that he had it he had to learn to fly it. Chief was able to find an aviation school that would give him some basic maintenance and ground schooling, but no flight training. He spent his time hanging around at airports and was able to pick up some tips on taking off and landing by listening to the pilots hangar talk and watching the airplanes coming and going from the field. The rest he figured out on his own. "After I got the airplane I had to learn how to fly it, but nobody would teach me. So I just fooled around with it enough that I got accustomed to it and eventually got to the point where I soloed myself."
Teaching one's self to fly is not a recommended venture today, and it wasn't then either. Chief nearly scalped himself on one of his first solo hops when he crashed into a tree when he tried to land. His dogged persistence paid off however, as by 1929 Chief was competent enough in the air to earn his pilot's certificate. Having learned to fly, Chief decided his next priority would be to earn an Air Transport License, so that he could make a legal living at being a pilot. This would be a difficult task, for along the way he had replaced the Monocoupe with an Alexander Eaglerock, but had crashed it too. In order to continue his training, he needed access to an airplane, and he knew from experience that it was going to be a difficult task to get one.
"I was determined to earn an Air Transport License so I could fly for an airline or give instruction, but I needed an airplane. I began looking for someone from whom I could borrow or rent an airplane. Of all things I met a man by the name of Ernest Buehl. He was a pilot in the First World War in the German Air Force - he was known as the 'Flying Dutchman.' Someone told me that if I went to see that man he would probably help me qualify to get this license. Sure enough, when I went to him to talk about it he said, 'Sure, I'll give you instruction.' He gave me instruction in spins, steep turns, and perfected me so I could go take a flight check for the Transport license."
"Well when we went to take this flight check the inspector didn't want to give it to me. He said, 'Well, I've never given a flight check to a colored boy, and I'm not going to do it now!' I remember Mr. Buehl became very hostile with the man, and threatened him, 'You're going to give him the flight check - he deserves it - he's qualified and I demand that you give him the flight check or else you're going to have to deal with me!' The inspector decided to give me the flight check…"
"After it was over Mr. Buehl asked him how I did. He said, 'Well he did okay with his flying, and he got a 100% on his written test - I'll give him an 80% and that will pass him.' So that's how I happened to get the first Air Transport License ever issued to a black in the United States."
As Chief soon found out, earning the coveted Air Transport License did not ensure employment. No one was keen on hiring a black pilot, so Chief took the first job available to him. "My father," he explained, "who was the caretaker for that woman who ran the boarding school, well he died and I took over his job. Well this Mrs. Wright - she died. This lady who took over the school, when she found out I had this Air Transport License she was very much upset about it, and she fired me. She said, 'Now, you just let your license take care of you!' And that was the end of that."
"After I lost my job - this was back in the Depression days now - I had to find some type of work to support my family - I was married by now and had children - so I got a job with what was known as the WPA, the Works Progress Administration. When they accepted me and found out I was a pilot, they gave me a job digging ditches! They put me in with a crew of other black men digging ditches, and in those days you dug ditches with a shovel - you didn't use the machines they have now. Well they put me on the lowest level. I would dig out a shovel full of dirt and throw it up to the next man on the next level, and he would throw it on out into the street."
"Well one day this fella Dr. Albert Forsythe heard about me having this Air Transport License. Well he came up to where we were working one day and he called down to me, 'Come on up out of there - I want to talk to you.' He said, 'You have a Transport License and you can't do any better than this? You come on with me - we're going to turn this whole thing around! I'm going to buy an airplane and you and I are going to fly and show people and prove to people that we can do anything that anyone else can do!'"
Dr. Albert Forsythe was a successful young black physician from Atlantic City, New Jersey, who had also been a student of Ernest Buehl's. When he could not get accepted into a medical school in the United States, he went north to Montreal, Canada and earned a medical degree. Disgusted with the rampant racism in the U.S., he took it upon himself to prove that blacks were just as capable as whites. At that time, aviation was in vogue - coast to coast records were being set, Lindbergh had just flown across the Atlantic a few years earlier, and there wasn't a day gone by where something related to aviation wasn't in the papers or on the radio. Dr. Forsythe decided to use aviation as his tool to fight racism and discrimination, and he needed Chief's help.
"Well Bert - I call him Bert - he bought an airplane from Mr. Buehl, who had helped me get my Air Transport License. After he bought it I gave him some extra flight lessons until he could handle it properly. One day he said to me, 'Now I didn't get this airplane just to fly around Bryn Mawr - we're going to take this airplane and show people that we can fly just like anyone else!' So he decided we would go to California. So we flew from Atlantic City to Los Angeles, California, which was the first time blacks had ever spanned the continent from east to west. Then we turned around and flew back to Atlantic City. We were the first blacks to make a round trip flight in the U.S. coast to coast. A young black man had flown from California to the East Coast, but unfortunately he had an accident and never made the flight back to California. So we were the first blacks to make a round trip flight."
This first trip was one of three "good will" flights that Dr. Forsythe and Chief planned together, and it received a good deal of attention, as did the other two. "After he bought another airplane, which we named the Spirit of Booker T. Washington in a ceremony at the Tuskegee Institute in Alabama, we decided we were going to fly out of the country. We made the first flight from Atlantic City up to Montreal, where Bert had gone to school. After that he decided we would fly to the West Indies and South America, and he bought another airplane for that. The thing of it is, in the West Indies and most places down there at that time they didn't have airports - very few of them even had airfields where you could land. We had to pick places were we could land - cricket fields, racetracks, wherever we could find a place to land. Well we had a very difficult problem with landing fields and with the trade winds blowing and what not, and to make a long story short we lost the airplane down in Trinidad."
Despite this unfortunate end to their South American good will tour, Chief and Dr. Forsythe were honored on their return to New Jersey with a parade in Newark in September 1935. During the later half of the 1930s, Chief would become involved with a number of programs introducing black high school kids to aviation and giving flight instruction to black pilots who couldn't get instruction elsewhere. During this same time period, the Civilian Pilot Training Program (CPTP) was established to train white men to fly in the event that war should reach the U.S. After an immense lobbying effort, President Roosevelt's administration eventually agreed to allow black men to participate in the program. A segregated all black training site was established at Moton Field, Alabama under the direction of the Tuskegee Institute, and soon after Chief was invited to join the program.
During his interview he explained how he became involved in one of the most famed aviation groups in history. "Consequently as a result of having our airplane named back at Tuskegee back in 1934, I became acquainted with people there like Dr. Frederick Patterson, the famous animal vet who became the president of Tuskegee. Well when they wanted to start an aviation program at Tuskegee they thought about me and asked me to come to Tuskegee to be the Chief Flight Instructor for this program. They bought a WACO airplane which I flew down from Ohio and that was the beginning of Tuskegee being involved with the training of blacks in aviation in 1940."
Because he flew as the Chief Flight Instructor, Charles Alfred Anderson became known simply as "Chief" for the rest of his life. Chief flew as the chief instructor of the CPT program at Tuskegee for about a year, and then a chance meeting with the First Lady Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt in March 1941 changed his life forever. "We were conducting the civilian CPT program there, and Mrs. Roosevelt came to visit Tuskegee. You know her husband had infantile paralysis, and the Tuskegee Institute had a hospital there that had an infantile paralysis unit. While she was there, the doctor at the hospital there told her about our flying. She asked him to take her out to where we were flying at the airfield. When he brought her out to the field I was introduced to her as the chief instructor. The first thing she said was, 'I always heard colored people couldn't fly airplanes, but I see you're flying all around here.' And then she said, 'I'm just going to have to take a flight with you.' Of course all her escorts ran out there and they were all very much opposed to it - 'No Mrs. Roosevelt! You can't do that!' Well she just made up her mind she was going to do it and got in the airplane. You don't argue with the First Lady, so we took off and made the flight, and then when we got back down she said, 'Well, I see you can fly all right!' It wasn't long after that that President Roosevelt's administration decided to have this program called the 'Tuskegee Experiment.'"
"The 'Tuskegee Experiment,'" Chief continued, "was to prove if it was feasible for blacks to fly airplanes, particularly in the military. So that was something we had to overcome. We were determined to prove we could do anything anybody else could do. We were very loyal to our country - we wanted to be fighter pilots just like anybody else. So consequently, although it was only intended to prove that it could work - it did work! As a result the Tuskegee Airmen did a wonderful job in the war to help win the war against the German Air Force."
"The Tuskegee Airmen were instrumental in integrating the military, both in the Air Force, the Army, the Navy, and the Marines. Prior to that all a black could do was be a cook, or a steward, or some other menial job. Now we have a Chief of Staff who is black - Colin Powell (remember, this interview was in 1992). The Tuskegee Airmen broke down barriers - it gave a chance for our people to contribute something to the country, which we always wanted to do, and we will continue to do!"
Chief personally trained over 1000 pilots at Moton Field in Tuskegee, including two of his better-known students General Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. and General Daniel "Chappie" James, Jr. The 332nd Fighter Group, formed entirely of Tuskegee pilots, was one of the most successful fighter groups during WWII, and they have the lone distinguish of being the only fighter group to never lose a bomber to enemy fighters while they were flying as escort. That kind of feat required strict discipline and superb flying, both of which Chief instilled in his students.
Chief's accomplishments did not stop when the war ended. He kept flying as an instructor, giving flight instruction to students of all races well into his eighties - in 1992 at the time of this interview Chief still had a valid air medical and was still giving flight instruction! He was a founding member of the Tuskegee Airmen, Inc. (TAI) and of the Negro Airmen International (NAI). Chief was instrumental in the organization of the NAI Summer Flight Academy, which provides aviation opportunities to young blacks.
Charles Alfred "Chief" Anderson is and was not only an inspiration to black Americans, but also to anyone involved with aviation or who sets a goal to accomplish something in their lives. Sadly, Chief passed away on April 13, 1996 after a long fight with cancer, but his spirit continues on in every person - no matter what his or her race - who desires to fly.
Chief's story is one of many interesting interviews in the Timeless Voices archive (http://www.timelessvoices.org/news/archive.asp). Check back next week for another Timeless Voices "Voice of the Week."

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Well you can hate me all you like, the fact remains...


What hatred, boet?? I'm genuinely interested in where you come up with this utter drivel you spout about everyone hating you? Don't you think your racial paranoia and dislike of white people is getting the better of you and it's now time to lose the attitude and see what is really going on around you? You're in the pound seats and any initiatives to advance a population group is aimed directly at you and others like you. It may wrongfully have been exclusively for whites in the old days but any job or qualification gained was done so on ability and the hard yards had to be done to get that lekker job in airlines you now occupy. It'll take a few years but black pilots will get there in the end without threats from people like you to push them into jobs they may not be ready for. Having a licence to fly commercially doesn't necessarily guarantee you a job. Hundreds of white pilots can confirm this. How many jobless black pilots do you know?

[beechbum]

With all this so called hatred you have around you Afri, just a query, but how do you get along with your fellow co-workers? I must admit I just wonder what so called CRM skills you possess? And when you finally become the "supreme commander" how will you interact with your whitey first officer? All this hatred bantered around makes me wonder if this in fact clouds your so called proffessional mind/demeanour!!
Like it don't like it!!!!!

[Fat A1bert]

This is laughable. Afri I think you have spoken volumes. You seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that aviation is not something that any little black boy (or more preferably, girl) can be thrown into and expected to succeed. Besides anything else, and arguably more importantly than anything else, there HAS to be a PASSION for aviation, aeroplanes, flying!!! A passion that builds up in someone so that he/she works his/her arse off to spend time around planes, and eventually in one! I appreciate that the due to our country’s unfair past flying has been more accessible to whites, but for heaven’s sake, get over that. We are here and we are now, and if there is a black guy/girl out there now with a passion, they’re laughing. You spoke of visiting airshows and igniting interest. Strange how you blatantly had no interest before being sucked up by your sponsor –

“The first time I ever saw an aeroplane is when I was boarding one to the flying school my sponsor was sending me to. I never aspired to be a pilot from kindergarden. Flying for me at the time off course was a meal ticket.”

This quote makes me sick. There was nothing stopping you, or your peers, walking to an airfield when you were growing up (wherever that was) to watch the planes (even from the perimeter fence). There was nothing stopping you or your peers getting books about planes out of the library, to learn. That’s what I did, and guess what – it cost nothing and was rewarding and fun! You’ve had 12 years to feed a passion – but you obviously don’t have one. Pity you’re doing it only to secure your ‘meal ticket’. Without passion (and ability), you won’t work. If you don’t work, you won’t succeed. If you are an unsuccessful pilot, yet are forced into the cockpit of an airliner, you will kill people. That is why this takes time.

Afri, has it crossed your mind that perhaps fewer black people are excited by the prospect of a career in aviation in the first place? Not everyone wants to be a pilot – whites included! I remember reading similar winges from the relatively few black pilots in the American industry… (before you start Afri, I know they’re the minority there).

You are extremely fortunate to have got where you have, and have without doubt got an awful lot from the current state of the industry. Now concentrate on what you are doing, and forget about how many faces of whatever bloody colour are around you. You really should be quite content.

Cheers all
FA

[Afriviation]

Amazes me how many of you prefer to attack me as If I'm the architect of slow transformation in SA. Perhaps I desreve it for bringing a topic everyone chooses to ignore 'cos the status quo suits them. No fat albert, I never knew of Aeroplanes, i just responded to an advert and I was lucky to be accepted that's a fact. In my entire neighborhood I had no role model I could look up to and perhaps spark the interest in aviation. Who was I to ever think I could ever become a pilot? I walked 30 kilometres each day to school. There was no motor vehicle at home to take me to the airport, not that I would have ever wanted to go there in the first place 'cos as I have admitted I knew nothing about aviation.
Despite my circumstances I was able to obtain good grades at school and by sheer luck I was off to pilot school.

Afri, has it crossed your mind that perhaps fewer black people are excited by the prospect of a career in aviation in the first place? Not everyone wants to be a pilot – whites included! I remember reading similar winges from the relatively few black pilots in the American industry… (before you start Afri, I know they’re the minority there).

Agreed there are few indeed, and perhaps around 3500 of around 4000 total pilots in SA out of an active economic non pale population of around 16 million that's a few indeed.

And now I look and i think how many more untapped potential pilots are out there in the bundus who could be developed and occupy their rightful seats in South African Aeroplanes?

Beechbum if bad CRM is about challenging the status quo, then you're right I need an earlier refresher. I just like the idea of a representative Aviation sector more than being liked because I'm passive about it. I doubt though If any non pale is ever liked or it's just professional pretence. For the record I'm an emotionally balanced individual, I never hate people just their deeds. Nor do I hate people for their opinions that's just too immature. There's always an issue to be resolved, i'd rather focus my energy and time resolving the issues and not the individuals.

All of you keep on referring to me hanging on to the past, I have yet to hear anyone of you referring to what SA Aviation has done in the present except lambasting the Goverment for their efforts at SAA, CAA and the airfroce. Well I'm listening.

SRT I'm not sure where you're going about the black jobless pilots, Unless SAA or the CAA looks after them, no one is going to anyway.

PPRUNE Thanks for a wonderful site, it certainly gets SA talking.

[Brian_Dunnigan]

You don't know much, do you, Afri?

1. I'm not Australian.

2. I'm not South African.

3. I don't hate you, I just don't like you.

4. You assume people hate you, therein lies a problem.

5. Aviation is not a soccer team...one can't just take people out of the bush and make them pilots...there are intermediate steps to be followed as I have already mentioned.

6. The SA government is failing, you but you seem to think the industry is at fault although some here have already told you that people have not applied:zzz:

7. You feel that you're owed something...I can't see why as you have got in to a spot many would sell their left bollock for.

8. Noone has a rightful place in any cockpit...it is earned, as you earned it.

9. I had a look at how you got there...why can't others do so?

10. The US story you pasted has no application today in SA, as there is majority rule now.In addition, aviation conditions have differed in the US as compared to other nations for a long time as their aviation industry has different economies of scale. Just look at the costs (at PPP) of flying in the US, hence why many go there to train, including the 9/11 fools.

11. Any attempt to compare the US affirmative action policies to those of SA will also be incorrect, as they have a bigger industry capable of absorbing the costs due to their tax system. Something you could suggest to the comrades about changing, Afri?

12. Perhaps you, and other SA pilots could found an Early Eagle scheme to assist those who fancy an aviation career that could identify talent?

13. The reason people here get angry with you, Afri, is that assume we're racist. Some may well be, but even in Black nations, you'll find bigots.
You need to face this fact, knowing that ar@#holes exist everywhere.

14. Your comment on Aborigines is irrelevant to me, Afri. I am not one, so why would this offend me?

Some here on the thread mentioned guilt...well, some may be, but as I voted only once in SA in the 1992 referendum (Ja), I don't believe I've anything to be guilty about. But I guess some think they know me better than I do!

Look, Afri, the way you go about this offends some...I just feel you're energies would be better focused on opportunity creation than labelling an entire industry...you'll at least get a smile from someone grateful for the chance...just my 2 cents (+ 0.2c GST)!

[Shrike200]

Oh please, here we go, hate, hate, hate. What on earth did you have to say that for Afriviation? - we just think you're not answering the questions and problems we put to you. I'd love to know what the atmosphere is like on your planet, but that sure ain't oxygen you're breathing. All the good will in the world doesn't generate cash. 'Will to transform' doesn't equate to money. Why don't you try and understand things from another point of view for a change - from where we're sitting, it looks like you hold all the cards, not us.

"I have said enough this morning to earn another dose of hatred" - no mate, you've just said enough this morning to earn less respect for your intelligence, thats all. Don't mistake anyone thinking you're dumb for hatred, thats a very strong word, there's a big difference.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Don't be so paranoid. No one is attacking you because they assume you're the architect of slow transformation. What's being pointed out to you is your attitude of expecting things will just happen if you whine about it and your targeting folks with white skins for percieved injustice on the flight deck. Things take time to happen if they're to be done correctly. Short cuts lead to problems in the long run.

As for the numbers of black opposed to white jobless pilots, the fact is that black pilots are, on the whole, not jobless, whereas the whites constitute many hundreds in an industry numbering less than 5000 qualified members. Once again, how many black commercial/ATP pilots do you know of without a job in South Africa?

"Rightful place in the cockpit?" Do you think it's a right to have a job in aviation? It's a privilege, and unlike you, one most of us have worked and are working very hard for.

[Brian_Dunnigan]

Here's a poser: Who's responsible for the unemployment across the board in SA?

Is it industry, the government prior to 1994, or the current government?

Given certain people's leanings, the answers could be interesting...

[Pale_ZA_Male]

Pale Male, get a life, do you actually own a business in SA? I do, and I employ 35 people, BEE is an absolute joke when you go into it! It's more about a case of whisky, REALLY!

Don't come with the ID story, that's the govermnet that was voted in by the "people" ten years ago, not the pales, as you call yourself. All this PC crap really gets on my ti:mad: s.

People I know are losing out on contracts because they are not BEE when they are a one person business, what must they do? Any bright suggestions?
:bored:

BEE is a mechanism to provide the millions an opportunity and the skills to make most of it. I agree that the small enterprises i.e. one man bands are falling foul of this, but I understand that such operators may be exempt from this in the future.

I did not vote for this government, but I am a South African and while this government is in power they are my government. I may not agree with everything they do but they have been a lot better than any white government. Equally, neither did I vote for our current rugby administrators. I think Van Rooyen and his crony's should drown in the sea. However the team that they have put together is the team I support. They are my rugby team.

And for your info, I do live here. I also run a business and I face the same problems that you do. However I believe that there are issues that this country needs to address that are bigger and more important than me, me, me and me. And one of those things is transformation. And it does effect my opportunities and what I can do. And it's not just in aviation. I know that this country's future depends on successful transformation. And if I was a black, I would consider Bob Mugabe to be a moderate and you would be swimming.

Nevertheless, we can all of course move to Germany, the engine of Europe, where unemployment is still greater than it is here amongst the white males.

[Brian_Dunnigan]

Pale ZA Male...Germany's unemployment is lower than yours...the fact that you do not count the rest of your population (Germany, the engine of Europe, where unemployment is still greater than it is here amongst the white males.) is strange.
Isn't that the type of statistics the Nats used to peddle?:E

[Pale_ZA_Male]

Pale ZA Male...Germany's unemployment is lower than yours...the fact that you do not count the rest of your population (Germany, the engine of Europe, where unemployment is still greater than it is here amongst the white males.) is strange.
Isn't that the type of statistics the Nats used to peddle?:E

You are right. However I am referring to the unemployment rate amongst white males. It is intended to illustrate that white males in South Africa, although prejudiced by the current BEE policies, still have a fairly good chance of employment relative to other countries and certainly a far greater chance than blacks.

As an aside I feel BEE as a policy should apply to anyone in poverty or without hope of employment, including whites. It should be an economic policy, not a racial one.

[Shrike200]

It should be an economic policy, not a racial one.
Now there's a thought, maybe one day thats what it could become.....one day. Anyone got any ideas about when discrimination against whites is going to be written out of the law? Or does somebody have to get locked up for lots of years on Robben Island first? :E

[mattman]

This Is crazy.
Afriviation everytime someone asks you a direct question you sideslip it and dump a whole load of intresting but irrevelent drivel for us to read.
Had a look at your profile dude and not yet much intresting there either. Sure you could inflate the truth about hours and experiance but thats the same as pencil whipping your log book bro!!

Why dont you put your money where your mouth is. I regulary send C.V's to S.A companies and get no response but the funny thing is I send a CV to a overseas company I at least get a letter from them saying thanks and they are at least intrested.
I really want YOU to maybe experiance a bit of Africa (does not mean flying over it dude). Why dont you get yourself a job that lets you see how foutunate you are to be a South African. Most of these guys that are posting replies to your BullS@$t that your spouting, not only work there but live for extended times in these absoulute despots in Africa.
Come see how the rest of Africa live, how they were raped of all minerals and any economic stability they had. I visited these places dude, I lived in them and everytime I come home I am proud that at least our country has the sensibility not to succumb to the African way of live I have to endure for 10 months of a year.
Where were you when we were still spiralling into Angola because a UN sign means shoot here? where were you when we landed in almost the worst conditions just to medivac a UN soldier with wounds?
Where were you when other guys were standing a airfields just to get a glimps of a aircraft?
I really am starting to dislike you attitude, you must a absoulute pain to fly with I just hope that I never get the oppertunity.
I have flown with guys that are non-pale, as it is put, and deserve more than you ever should, funny thing is these guy's did there training with out goverment or company assitance and actually love what they doing and have a greater respect for the love of flying.
My friend your attitude is the reason our country just does not go foward fast enough.
Thats my 2 cents worth and I know you will probably attack me for it but I will be the bigger aviator and back away.

Gooday to you Sir

[Luxury]

Near to 10 pages of bull$hit:bored:
Reading all the posts, looks to me Afri is pale:ouch: :sad: .... stiring the pot:p
Put this thread to:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[Afriviation]

mattman you've said a mouthful but I fail to see how it relates to his topic. As I'm getting wiser posting replies to this thread, I'm staying away from answering personal attacks because this is in no way about me it's about the millions of previously disadvantaged people out there and you will not agree on this one, pales will also benefit from having more representation across all job levels in the economy. That will mean less crime, less impoverished economy, boming tourism and yes an even greater country.

Now there's a thought, maybe one day thats what it could become.....one day. Anyone got any ideas about when discrimination against whites is going to be written out of the law? Or does somebody have to get locked up for lots of years on Robben Island first?

I don't think there's discrimination against anyone in this country. It's a democratic country and everyone has a place in it. Employment equity is a vehicle to bring the impoverished communities who happen to be non pale into the mainstream economy. Were it not for this act, non pales would never be able to advance as they lag far behind the pales in education, skills, capital and so forth. One can hope that our economy continues to grow, in which case there will be endless opportunities for everyone. Every Company is allowed to set their employment equity targets which can be representiative according to the demographics of the country. Theoretically then after these targets have been reached a Company would be at liberty to hire on merit. I say theoretically because I don't know if there's any sector in business or Company that has gotten there yet.

Here's a poser: Who's responsible for the unemployment across the board in SA?

Is it industry, the government prior to 1994, or the current government?

Given certain people's leanings, the answers could be interesting...

My answer to that will be employment rates and certainly the economy in SA are far greater than they were prior to 1994. Hence you've seen the comments by say what about this government doing better than the Nats.


Don't be so paranoid. No one is attacking you because they assume you're the architect of slow transformation. What's being pointed out to you is your attitude of expecting things will just happen if you whine about it and your targeting folks with white skins for percieved injustice on the flight deck. Things take time to happen if they're to be done correctly. Short cuts lead to problems in the long run.



I think the guys in Zim ran out of time, and the Bomb exploded. You can't keep on making people wait and wait, they become impatient. If we can just talk about this time issue. Let me see. It takes on average around 2 years for a pilot to qualify as a Commercial Pilot. Assuming full time employment another conservative two to reach 1000 hours. The issue here is not time, but money. I am no authority here people, I can't be dictating what must happen to transform SA Aviation. My point has been made, it's a problem that exist and if it's not sorted out there's bound to be consequences.


As for the numbers of black opposed to white jobless pilots, the fact is that black pilots are, on the whole, not jobless, whereas the whites constitute many hundreds in an industry numbering less than 5000 qualified members. Once again, how many black commercial/ATP pilots do you know of without a job in South Africa?



I know of at least 20 but I'm no authority in this and my figure could be well below the correct one. The point is not about jobless black pilots, the issue is about the identification and development of black candidates into professional pilots. I undertsand this is a requirement of the employment equity act that everyone so much ignores. And yes the SA Aviation Sector is in breach of the law, not my law, the law of South Africa.


"Rightful place in the cockpit?" Do you think it's a right to have a job in aviation? It's a privilege, and unlike you, one most of us have worked and are working very hard for.


You make it sound that non pales are not capable of hard work. i just have to laugh at that. You make aviation sound like some rocket science, it's not. For people without inherent ability yes it can be, but for people who have it it's a walk in the park. I don't know about you but for me flying is fun. I never see it as hard work. i'm getting paid for having fun. You can take me anywhere in the world and give me any aeroplane whether it's in Africa or wherever I'll still have fun. The flying will make up for any misery I may come across on the ground. But you see I'm not selfish, I would like some non pales also to experience the joys of flight.



5. Aviation is not a soccer team...one can't just take people out of the bush and make them pilots...there are intermediate steps to be followed as I have already mentioned.


Where are the non pales in those steps? Step Zero.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

All I can say is that black pilots without a job are not looking for one. The aviation sector in SA is screaming for black pilots to the extent that they're being actively recruited from flying schools if they are South African and even in some cases if they're not. Right to live and work here is being "fixed" by the companies. So much for jobs for South Africans.

Please explain to me how a company that is barely getting by and paying a below average wage to their regular pilots is going to be able to fund a black pilot that has as yet to prove himself? It's possible he's the wrong candidate and would be better suited to a career in business and would only waste their time and money. Why not take someone who's worked for it and is already there? Oh, silly me. Already been snapped up by airlines.

I know of captains working on contract in the bush in appalling conditions getting paid less than the boss' secretary. That is not going to motivate many people to become pilots but those are the facts.

I think the guys in Zim ran out of time, and the Bomb exploded. You can't keep on making people wait and wait, they become impatient. If we can just talk about this time issue. Let me see. It takes on average around 2 years for a pilot to qualify as a Commercial Pilot. Assuming full time employment another conservative two to reach 1000 hours. The issue here is not time, but money. I am no authority here people, I can't be dictating what must happen to transform SA Aviation. My point has been made, it's a problem that exist and if it's not sorted out there's bound to be consequences.

Pray tell, what is the person expected to do with 1000 hours? Command on a jet? Command on a medium turboprop? A white pilot may just be reaching a stage where the insurance companies consider him employable. Cadets and fast trackers are usually already in a regional airline by this point. I'm getting the idea you've never had to hand out countless CVs, attend the few interviews that get scheduled and spend months getting turned down. Command at SAA used to take 15-20 years in the right seat so your timetable is merely in it's infancy.

Zimbabwe is an example of an autocracy gone mad. It was all about pandering to the crowd to win votes in the end. Mugabe will do anything to hold onto power, including killing his own people (the sector who historically don't vote for him) and destroying his country.


Your logic is so flawed it's a joke. I asked where people had the right to an aviation job and you made it into a racist thing. Entering into any kind of debate with you is a waste of time and energy as you fail to present anything near a rational argument to back up your point, instead replying with thinly veiled threats about what will happen if things don't get fast tracked (Zim scenario), slanderous and untrue statements about people who oppose you, manipulation of their intentions and and downright untruths.

I say again, any discrimination based on race is inherently racist, yet it seems this is acceptable to you. It appears the **** remains the same, only the flies have changed. Your whole struggle will have been in vain if the only thing that happens is that the liberators become the oppressors, as has happened so many times before. What will happen when equity has been reached? Will those discriminatory rules fall away? Somehow, I don't think so...:hmm:

These things take time. Any attempt to fast track what can't be hurried will lead to failure.

[Afriviation]

All I can say is that black pilots without a job are not looking for one. The aviation sector in SA is screaming for black pilots to the extent that they're being actively recruited from flying schools if they are South African and even in some cases if they're not. Right to live and work here is being "fixed" by the companies. So much for jobs for South Africans.

SRT with due respect that is a blatant lie. Which Companies are these, Solenta Maybe (they have 1 non pale not from a scheme) NAC No, Execujet No, Federal Aviation No, Anglo Maybe ( A dude who was mysteriously kicked out of the SAA scheme) etc etc. I don't know where you get your information but I'm afraid it is flawed to the extreme. perhaps you could give some statistics that could slightly change my view about SA aviation.


Please explain to me how a company that is barely getting by and paying a below average wage to their regular pilots is going to be able to fund a black pilot that has as yet to prove himself? It's possible he's the wrong candidate and would be better suited to a career in business and would only waste their time and money. Why not take someone who's worked for it and is already there? Oh, silly me. Already been snapped up by airlines.




Explain to me how does A company that is barely getting ........ pay for a new pilot to do their conversion. There's always a risk involved with training someone. Hence they've come up with things like bonding etc. As they say SRT a boer maak a plan. Surely if it takes bonding these non pales that could be done. As I said before there's no will.

know of captains working on contract in the bush in appalling conditions getting paid less than the boss' secretary. That is not going to motivate many people to become pilots but those are the facts.


I know of non pales with degrees who are not employed who could jump at the opportunity of getting a cleaners salary.


Pray tell, what is the person expected to do with 1000 hours? Command on a jet? Command on a medium turboprop? A white pilot may just be reaching a stage where the insurance companies consider him employable. Cadets and fast trackers are usually already in a regional airline by this point. I'm getting the idea you've never had to hand out countless CVs, attend the few interviews that get scheduled and spend months getting turned down. Command at SAA used to take 15-20 years in the right seat so your timetable is merely in it's infancy.


As said before the issue of hours is based on Supply/demand. If you're serious about transformation you'd know the answer. Ask emirates/Cathay at what level are they cadets are at with those hours, my guess/ co-pilot on a 777 or similar.


Zimbabwe is an example of an autocracy gone mad. It was all about pandering to the crowd to win votes in the end. Mugabe will do anything to hold onto power, including killing his own people (the sector who historically don't vote for him) and destroying his country.




Well amazing how they quicky danced to his tune. perhaps the pressures of having nothing contributed to it.


Your logic is so flawed it's a joke. I asked where people had the right to an aviation job and you made it into a racist thing. Entering into any kind of debate with you is a waste of time and energy as you fail to present anything near a rational argument to back up your point, instead replying with thinly veiled threats about what will happen if things don't get fast tracked (Zim scenario), slanderous and untrue statements about people who oppose you, manipulation of their intentions and and downright untruths.


The fact remains transformation in Aviation is going nowhere in SA, that has nothing to do with my logic.


say again, any discrimination based on race is inherently racist, yet it seems this is acceptable to you. It appears the **** remains the same, only the flies have changed. Your whole struggle will have been in vain if the only thing that happens is that the liberators become the oppressors, as has happened so many times before. What will happen when equity has been reached? Will those discriminatory rules fall away? Somehow, I don't think so...:hmm:

These things take time. Any attempt to fast track what can't be hurried will lead to failure.


How can you possibly discriminate against your boss. Even though government is in the hands of non pales in this country, everyone knows that true power that is wealth and influence is still in the hands of pales.
Where has fast tracking led to failure in Emirates, Cathay, KQ etc.

[HappyPilot]

Hi Afriviation,
a couple of things you to understand

1) this forum is filled with racist white South Africans who just cannot comprehend the fact that democracy means majority rule

2)That the previously disadvantaged who suffered so much in their hands now have to be given a fair crack at making a good future for themselves

3)That a lot of the opinions on the African forum are entirely one sided and you can never have a balanced conversation without being overwhelmed by the constantly whinging brigade spouting crap about black people, black pilots at SAA, BEE this and BEE that.

4)They will never ever ever accept that they are racists

So my dear friend, there are those of us who read pprune African forum and try our best to ignore the usuall suspects so to speak, remember that with the current situation in SA, alot of them dont have jobs, or the kind of jobs they want, so a lot of time is spent brewing the hatred which is being directed at you. Congrats for standing up and speaking the thruth though, its usually a topic that alot of peeple tend not to bother with.

Oh yeah, and whoever thinks of directing crap at me, well hear this. Your opinion really doesn't matter anyway, things are changing in Africa and people are standing up to be counted. I have a good job in Africa, I earn well and I'm loving it. Got to go and prepare for 2mor's flight. Feel free to carry on this conversation for as long as you all want. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels the way I do

[beechbum]

Guys guys guys.......don't you think that this poor individual seems to have an answer for every post you or I put up. I think it's about time we put this to bed as quite honestly it just seems to be going round and round in a viscous circle. I think Afriman can't wait for a retort to his ongoing plead for transformation and the more we do it the more guns he has firing. Personally I think it must be a sad individual who cannot realise that transformation all thought painful for you - Afriaman - will be a slow and ardious process and as soon as you realise this the better.
Since you have so much time on your hands in between "manning" your bus on the way to wherever, be constructive and visit the charter firms and relay your ongoing ambitions of transforming this ever backward aviation industry of ours.Imagine what a little input you could make.
Instead of sitting in front of your computer for hours on end, imagine what good you could have done already. maybe you could have left your nicely furnished abode and gone into the townships found some eager fellow and taken him to your nearby airfield and shown him what you so dearly missed out on growing up.
Anyway I hope to goodness you transform our industry single handedly and then we can admire what a fantastic individual you really are. :hmm:
I'll be out of a job and maybe my kids will have to walk 30km's to school!!!
Anyway you've had too many days off now time SAA put you back to work.....now where's that roster clerks' number.........???
Have fun Afriman.......and keep on transforming.
Au revoir.....until we meet again!!!!

[Afriviation]

Oooh happy pilot, thanks for a breath of fresh air. I think for me this thread highlighted a few things for me

1) The real reason transformation is so slow in this country.

2) How greedy and selfish pale people are.

3) If you lose out in an argument attack the person.

4) Times change, Govenrments change, policies change but people will always remain the same.

5) The successes of the Anc government will never be recognised by the majority of pale people.

and lastly

7) If you are a non pale pilot out there, particularly if you were sponsored by the government you better watch your back, So many pale pilots are disgusted that you were taken out of the doldrums and are now occupying a seat their pal, brother, sister or son/daughter would rather be occupying.

I'm not chickening out of this thread, I will continue to challenge any responses worthwile challenging for the good of defending a just cause to better the lives of the sons and daughters of the Maids and Gardeners of Pale people in South Africa.

[beechbum]

Oh happypilot you do gooder you.....and the UK has no racism hey.......huh you type make me wanna :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
If you are a non pale pilot out there, particularly if you were sponsored by the government you better watch your back, So many pale pilots are disgusted that you were taken out of the doldrums and are now occupying a seat their pal, brother, sister or son/daughter would rather be occupying.
You see Afriman this type of retort is totally uncalled for ....."to watch their backs" man you are creating an unnecessary atmosphere blending on the whole hatred thing.You're the one making the issues here........
The cadets that I do know, I wish all the best of luck to, they are fine individuals and I had fun flying with them and I hope that they make a great success of their careers at SAA as none of them have chips like you do on both shoulders.Go and get it guys as you deserve it. But you.......!!!!:mad: :mad:

[Afriviation]

beechbum I'm not a cadet, get your facts right. With so much antagonism towards people who were uplifted by the government, yes the warning bells are sounding. Just see some of the replies to this thread and stop putting the blame on me, even if your fellow pales and yourself included have made it clear how they feel about he whole situation.

[birdlady]

Afri,

I think your missing the point. Majority of us whites (call a spade a spade I say :rolleyes: :rolleyes:) agree that blacks should be in the cockpit. You are going to meet the odd one who doesnt agree with this but these are very few and far between. Im white so dont know what its like to be black but I do know what its like to be a female in this industry when there is sooo few of us. From all my dealings with white and black male pilots, apart from one individual f:mad: , the fact that I was a female did not bother them one iota. I was always treated like one of the lads and was always treated with utmost respect. If you look at our industry today and compare it to what it was say 15 years ago there's definately far more softness out there ;) ;) Just proves that the industry is willing to transform.

I think the point that we're trying to make afri is that transformation is not going to happen overnight. I support your endeavours wholeheartedly but I think you maybe being slightly unrealistic - time wise that is...... :ok: :ok: :ok:

[saywhat]

Afriaviation, I have heard arguement from both sides, and am still at a loss for an answer. I concede that you have a valid point, transformation is not taking place fast enough. My question remains the same, and still unanswered by either yourself or any other ppruner. How do we correct the problem.
You are very quick to say that industry must pay. I seem to recall that you would like to see 90% black representation in cockpits accross the board. Lets say that there are 5000 professional pilots out there (fixed wing). 1000 out of the country or out of work. That means that we are looking at 90% of 4000 employed pilots to be trained. This equates to 3600 pilots, less as many are trained already. Lets say 3000 pilots. That comes to about R1260 Million at R350 000.00 per com pilot. I can't see industry forking that kind of money out!
So we apply to TETA, as you say, and they say they have a spare R1260 Million lying arround. We train the pilots. It takes 18 months, and now the pilots are there. How are they accomodated? Are 3600 presently employed pilots fired to make possitions available?
I'm not trying to be unrealistic. I do in essence agree with you, however, the problem is a little more complex than it is being made out to be by both sides.
I know that I have misconstrued the essence of what you are trying to say, but what exactly would you like to see happen.
While we're at it,does anyone know how many black pilots there are in SA now? Approximate figure would be fine. This might be a good indication of how badly, or perhaps well we are doing.

[beechbum]

Sorry for the presumption oh righteous one.....but at no stage did you refer to us as otherwise, so how could I have got my facts right. When you proclaimed that the first aircraft you saw was the one you jumped on to go to your place of training, the power of deduction = cadet. So if you're not a cadet then the scope narrows as to your identity.......:uhoh:
We're not casting any blame here buddy we just trying to point out many issues in our environment that you fail to understand. Unfortunately if you see it as blame ,well that is your Indaba. After all who started the thread and as I said on page one of this topic..... this could get rough!!!!
And boy did it.........you should have believed it.
One thing you may or may not understand is that there are hundreds of pilots out there whether it be in the charter, regional or training sector that still believe and desire a career at the national carrier. When someone like yourself comes on board and starts on about transformation and the non-pales as you put it, it tends to dash peoples hopes and dreams. It also creates a defensive barrier - and unfortunately a natural reaction is to attack.
So as the one and only - you received most of this attack - whether you like it or not.
And I am not a white extremist as you put it - maybe I should say GET your facts right - but then again as I have said before you do not know my background and never will.
I am merely protecting what I believe in and for the aviation of South Africa as a whole as I don't care at the end of the day whether it's black, white, pink,: brown or purple. I am a professional and would hope that you are the same and to go on until we are blue in the face is rediculous....because as we all know the transformation that you seek will come. But not today, not tomorrow but soon........and that is what you have to learn to accept.:ok:

[zimchick]

:rolleyes:
Be warned as there is a large can of whip ass coming your way:ok: :ok:
This is bcos the poor guy is trying to speak his mind, and then beechbum goes on to say

I am a professional and would hope that you are the same


oh yeah, lets not forget this one from someone who's posts comes in almost every hour


Instead of sitting in front of your computer for hours on end, imagine what good you could have done already.

Pot calling kettle black(no pun intended) perharps? Do us all a favour, stop being racist, wind your neck in, accept that the wind of change and fairness is blowing and for heaven sake stop playing with the smilies. One or two ok, but on every post?????? Starts to make you look like the cadet mate.

Zimchick

[Solid Rust Twotter]

SRT with due respect that is a blatant lie. Which Companies are these, Solenta Maybe (they have 1 non pale not from a scheme) NAC No, Execujet No, Federal Aviation No, Anglo Maybe ( A dude who was mysteriously kicked out of the SAA scheme) etc etc. I don't know where you get your information but I'm afraid it is flawed to the extreme. perhaps you could give some statistics that could slightly change my view about SA aviation.


The friend who owns a flying school has been approached by the company you work for enquiring about students who are doing commercial licences, particularly black and female students. Lies? I think not but I'm not sure you can see that through the fog of propaganda.

Explain to me how does A company that is barely getting ........ pay for a new pilot to do their conversion. There's always a risk involved with training someone. Hence they've come up with things like bonding etc. As they say SRT a boer maak a plan. Surely if it takes bonding these non pales that could be done. As I said before there's no will.

Bonding for a conversion to type certainly. Paying for the entire CPL Multi IF is another thing entirely. How can you expect them to take a chance on someone who may not be the right person. Even SAA have had drop outs. How do you think small companies afford that withpout taxpayer assistance?


I know of non pales with degrees who are not employed who could jump at the opportunity of getting a cleaners salary.

I know of whites with degrees who have the same problem. What's your point? The fact is that so called "pale " pilots are discriminated against at the larger airlines in that the standard required for them to be accepted is higher than for blacks, thus they have no option but to put their lives at risk working in war zones outside SA.



As said before the issue of hours is based on Supply/demand. If you're serious about transformation you'd know the answer. Ask emirates/Cathay at what level are they cadets are at with those hours, my guess/ co-pilot on a 777 or similar.

Currently there is an over supply of pilots with more than 1000 hours. Would you have those fortunate enough to be employed fired to make way for black pilots with lower time?



Well amazing how they quicky danced to his tune. perhaps the pressures of having nothing contributed to it.

What he did was illegal, unconstitutional and criminal. Is this the path you'd like to see taken in SA?


The fact remains transformation in Aviation is going nowhere in SA, that has nothing to do with my logic.

The fact remains transformation is taking place but you seem to want a quick fix.


How can you possibly discriminate against your boss. Even though government is in the hands of non pales in this country, everyone knows that true power that is wealth and influence is still in the hands of pales.
Where has fast tracking led to failure in Emirates, Cathay, KQ etc.

Quite simply, you continue as things are going in SA. You find a reason to get rid of him, replace him with someone who is perhaps not suited for the job but has the universal AA qualification and then overload them with responsibility leading to mistakes and major management problems. There are some really good black managers but by the same token there are some real doozies in the cock up department as well. The same thing goes for whites but the difference is that it's easier to get rid of white employees.



Happy Pilot, you don't work or live in South Africa and are therefore pretty much unqualified to comment but your racist drivel says it all really.

In closing I believe the industry does need to transform but forcing the issue won't make things right. There is a natural progression that must be followed and that includes a level of self sponsorship and interest, rather than just cadetships. It's going to take time and it won't be easy so the expectation you have that things will come right overnight if you can just get rid of all the white pilots is erroneous and dangerous. Your level of racism and that of Happy Pilot astounds me. You obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder regarding white people and until you get your head sorted out on that count you will continue to be a bitter individual that I certainly would feel uncomfortable spending time with on a flight deck.

I'm putting this one to bed now because I find I'm just repeating myself to no avail. None so blind and all that...

Good night.

[beechbum]

Hey chick who rattled your cage. Read my posts properly and you'll realise I ain't a rascist.......huh get outta here man and quit wasting my time. And if I want to be on Pprune the whole day then so be it. Get a life and put something constructive on the forum or get the hell out!!!
Bye for now.........and there's nothing wrong with a few smiles.;) :ok: :E :D :) :ok: :ok: :ok:
Silly lass..............

[bushpilot]

Flying is not rocket science guys, Anyone who says safety will deteriorate because blacks are quick tracked into airline seats is prejudiced!

SAL has had some of their pilots become captains in 4-5 years from ab-initio training with no major decline in their safety record. Any candidate from any race can fly an airplane if trained and certified as per standards, regardless of whether they have a love of flying or not!

Flying is about money really! Doesn't matter how much u love flying, or breathing because of no other ambition, but to be the best gawdamn pilot since Chuck Yeager-and that airline seat is ur ultimatum achivement. I've had awesome students who loved to fly, stop flying because they ran out of money, just as much as I've had some students who didn't care a damn about flying as a career, but did it just because they had an education trust fund set up, or mummy/daddy taking them to flight school just to keep them occupied.

Here in the US, some people fly not because they love to, but because they see it as a tool to make their lives simpler or more entertaining, be they lawyers, doctors, actors regardless of race..etc...and they have the resources to do that. Over the years, affirmative action has been used as a tool to help the minority blacks get out of the pitiful destitution and ignorance they were plunged into by years being downtrodden; and todate, the US supreme court believes affirmative action is still needed for a few more decades to achieve this objective.

Some times to be fair where unfairness existed for ages, u have to open up more oppotunities for those who've been down trodden for so long,that they may have a chance to get out of the pitiful cycle of ignorance and destitution. Its unfortunate that some who felt entitled to what they thought rightfully theirs for so long, and got spoilt, see this as wrong, or that it should take more time. Change is loved by those it favors, and hated by those who don't want change. But change is inevitable! Accept it and work with it, or die a bitter person.

[EltorroLoco]

One can't really comment about anyone's situation when growing up since one did not experience it first hand, so most policies will help some and hinder others. I also feel that even debating such things is like debating the colour of poop.
Methinx Jesse Jackson said it best:
"Excellence is the best solution to racism. Excellence is the best solution to sexism. Be Excellent!"
The world is not fair, and one just has to deal with it - both sides of this argument. I don't have to like the offside rule to play soccer, I just need to understand it.
If one is the best that one can be at the job, good things will probably happen - even if there are a few speedbumps in the road. It is hard to ignore the best individuals, whilst the mediocre are easily ignored.
If one has to put in more effort than others to achieve one's goals, then that's what needs to be done. Anyone with children will understand that an evironment of entitlement does not encourage one to grow and learn to deal with adversity.
If you are in a position to change policy for the better of most, then do it. If you are not, learn the rules and apply yourself even more to achieve your goals. No-one decides what state of mind I wake up in, or what I want to achieve each day - except for me.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

That just about sums it up.

Well put, Mr Bull.:ok:

[Shrike200]

Afriaviation, I have heard arguement from both sides, and am still at a loss for an answer. I concede that you have a valid point, transformation is not taking place fast enough. My question remains the same, and still unanswered by either yourself or any other ppruner. How do we correct the problem.
You are very quick to say that industry must pay. I seem to recall that you would like to see 90% black representation in cockpits accross the board. Lets say that there are 5000 professional pilots out there (fixed wing). 1000 out of the country or out of work. That means that we are looking at 90% of 4000 employed pilots to be trained. This equates to 3600 pilots, less as many are trained already. Lets say 3000 pilots. That comes to about R1260 Million at R350 000.00 per com pilot. I can't see industry forking that kind of money out!
So we apply to TETA, as you say, and they say they have a spare R1260 Million lying arround. We train the pilots. It takes 18 months, and now the pilots are there. How are they accomodated? Are 3600 presently employed pilots fired to make possitions available?
I'm not trying to be unrealistic. I do in essence agree with you, however, the problem is a little more complex than it is being made out to be by both sides.
I know that I have misconstrued the essence of what you are trying to say, but what exactly would you like to see happen.
While we're at it,does anyone know how many black pilots there are in SA now? Approximate figure would be fine. This might be a good indication of how badly, or perhaps well we are doing.


Precisely. Afriviation, your'e jumping up and down saying 'Something must be done!', but you neglect to provide any reasonable solution. Saying 'n Boer maak 'n plan' is just downright silly. "n Boer" can't just whip several million out of his wallet - and with Saywhat's theoretical sums, that doesn't include the trained pilots then getting any form of experience before occupying whatever seat they can occupy (and let's face it - there's no way in hell you can argue that they should get command of anything bigger than a 'Van at 250 hrs or so!)

Trying to inject some logic and reason to the argument is not 'racist'. Comments by Happypilot et al just expose that mindless bigotry can exist on both sides - you live in your world, and none of our arguments can change your blinkered opinion.

"White pilots are all racist" - oh please. I don't have any problem with black people - if I did I wouldn't be living and working in Africa, that would be exceptionally stupid, what with Africa being mostly occupied by black people. Don't you think I would have just left by now? Wake up, really. None of us hark back to the bad old days. We just want to find a way forward, and you're basically telling us there isn't one for us, we must all bugger off and not fly - how did you think we would react? You made jokes saying 'yes baas etc' (which really irritated me - don't play that stupid game, I never want any person to call me 'baas'), then expect us to say the same to you. Rubbish thinking.

[Shrike200]

And take a look at Guns (R.I.P.) posting positive comments on progress, just for example:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=206124

Is that racist too? You'll note the encouragement - thats generally the widely held view here, I'm sure. Wake up Afriviation, you're not living in the world you think you're living in. Maybe they can remake 'The Matrix', starring you in the lead role.

[Jlo]

Afriviation

The doors are open... wide open! Nobody's going to carry people through the doors though. Every pilot out there, regardless of colour still has to put in effort to make a success. Personally I think working for something is a lot more satisfying than being fast-tracked. I want to feel like i deserve what i get just as much as everyone else because i've worked for it.
I'm close friends with quite a few black pilots who have made a huge success because they have persevered and because they have a passion for flying. That's what it is all about. Don't lose sight of the goal here. Silly arguments like this hold back transformation because you are stepping on toes unnecessarily and it creates a negative attitude towards black pilots and transformation.

By the way... where have you been? There are lots of black pilots in training at flying schools - i know because i'm there. And everyone is treated the same. We cannot move forward if we keep on looking back. We need to cut the ties of the past. Else transformation will take even longer! Don't you see that what you have done here, is not helping at all!

My friend, i understand how you feel but you should change your approach. If you wind people up you will not get their co-operation. Each and every one of us should start to try and make a difference in our own small way. What have YOU done to HELP transformation? Have you sponsored a previously-advantaged person's PPL? That's a good way to start.

I read a book that really changed my opinion on life and a changing environment. It's called "Who moved my cheese"... by an author i cannot remember right now. I really recommend it!

[beechbum]

Here here Jlo.....exactly what we have been trying to say all along. Maybe he will take heed.
Lekker.....well done!!! Better go before I get yelled at for being on Pprune again!
Byeeeeeeeeeeeeee!:ok: (only one this time!)

[CoJam]

Afri,

Seems like you dont really know what is going on behind the curtains. I am personally involved in setting up a training academy where we will train pilots from all different backgrounds...which will mostly be black students.

Government is involved as well as other companies which you will probably think is WHTE owned. These guys will be sticking their money where their mouth is and help the transformation but its going to take time. I think your approach to this whole thing has been in an arrogant manner and leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of white pilots who are trying to make a living in the affirmative SA. Some of these "white" pilots have "black" pilots as flying partners and get along very well.

The tone that you are using just builds a bigger wall between black and white and you are definetaly not helping to break it down. Why dont you stop the political/racial comments, have a look around you, take off your "colour" lenses and see the aviation industry as everyone else sees it.

Yes, it is an industry where transformation has been slow(mostly due to the costs) and yes it has not yet been refelective of our nation but it will take time.

Meanwhile, you can start at yourself and see what you can do to help transformation.Moaning, whining, blaming apartheid and throwing racial comments around is certainly not a start.

You dont have to pay a PDI's PPL...you can just take a group of young black kids to your aircraft or even just the airport and show them around. This will be a start at creating some interest with PDI's. If they are genuinely interested in avaiation they will actually stay in school, do maths, science or geography and aim to become a pilot.

No use to just take a black guy from the street and tell him that he will now become a pilot.As you mentioned, youre an aviator, and to create more aviators, we need to create more interest from PDI's to transform the industry.

Stop looking at your collegues skin colour and be the one who initiates these kind of stuff at your job.

Be the leader, not the moaner.

[Knoppiesdoorn]

CoJam: Well done.

I hope afri will see the light and pse, lets put this to rest.

[lionco]

Afri your outlook will keep S Africa in the 3rd world maybe even down grade to a 4th world. Remember, you won't see rainbows in the dark.:confused: Embrace multiculturalism, learn to work together.
White people are SOUTH AFRICANS too, whether you like it or not.:D
Look ahead! Learn from the white South Africans, they are great teachers and fantastic pilots. It often seems to me that many whites are more open to the new South Africa than non whites.
As for becoming a pilot. Anyone with this ambition, where ever they may be, has to work their but off to get there.
I did it in SAfrica. Please don't mention afirmitive action to me, I did it on merit and merit alone.:}
Now with affirmative action in place. THERE IS NO EXCUSE!:* :* :*

[Cessnafan]

Hey Afri, I think you're neither black, white, racist or non racist, but rather just an ar:} hole, so do continue to do what you're doing best which is cr:) pping out of your mouth.

[Romeo E.T.]

Hey everybody....how do we know that afriman isn't a jorno looking for sensationalism or maybee its Michael Naiker!

[Shrike200]

Did somebody say Michael Knight?!?! The Hoff!!!! Ruuuuun awaaaaaay! :eek:

[TooBadSoSad]

Folks, don't waste your time entertaining Afriviation! He is obviously an SAA DG pilot who had his career sponsored by SAA, Anglo, Lesotho, the Ciskei Air Force or possibly even a foreign airline. He is most likely way younger than most of his fellow pilots at SAA with similiar seniority numbers and is advantaged at the expense of some poor white male pilot who has to sit in Afghanistan or some other sh-t hole, away from his family for months on end, because he does not fit the governments profile for being hired by SAA.
This same DG pilot is now bored with being an FO on A340's or B738's and feels it is time to get that command "because the law" says that he should. Stuff those pale males who have families to support and are already behind the financial power curve because their entry into SAA was delayed to make room for hard done-by cadets.
Do you think Afri really cares about promoting aviation and encouraging PDI's to gain a passion for aviation which is so lacking in most DG pilots? Noooo!!!! All Afri cares about is numero uno and how fast he can get his Intl command and lots of money as a long-range captain, and at the expense of any SAA pale male he has to trample over to get there. Guess which party Afri belongs to?? Why, Zuma's of course!! He's learned from the best.

[bushpilot]

What bothers me most is that there are morons who still believe u need guargantuan thousands of hours, or tens of years of experience to be in command. That's a disease that was created by unions because of seniority numbers.

Even worse, some are still putting flying on a pedestal it shouldn't be on, making it sound like u need to be ultra-smart and carved out for it; and live for nothing but to fly, inorder to earn the right to be in an airline cockpit! Nothing wrong with quicktracking into a jet, u can do it here in the US in a couple of months if u have a nice fat bank account.

The US military has kids in their early twenties commanding and flying multi-milion dollar fighters and tankers. It's all in the training. With Level C and D sims, u can throw train 10 times worse senerios than a pilot will ever see in real life.

[TooBadSoSad]

BP, there exists in all major carriers a system called seniority. This system ensures that favouritism and nepotism are not factors in deciding who gets the next command. It means that everyone waits their turn and that ideally the most experienced FO's are the next in line when command slots become available. Sorry for you that you feel being a pilot without a passion for aviation is not a bad thing!!

[Captain Pheremone]

Don't you guys work??????- I don't have time to write much.

Between reading all these posts and dodging civilian and military aircraft wrecks scattered around every airfield in Africa I have to say that "Afriman ....I'm sorry the odds are not in your favour!!!!!!"

Change will come but as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated as its been repeated - REMOVE THE CHIP, LOOK FORWARD AND LETS DO IT ON MERIT!!!!!!

Those that got there on merit and passion - yes, you know who you are - will always make a great pilot. The others....welll??????:yuk:

[The 1]

[Afriviation]"Yes that's right, if you're a non pale in Aviation in SA, the eyebrows are raised everywhere and it's a matter of " he won't make it until he proves us otherwise" whereas when it comes to a fellow pale " he will make it until he proves us otherwise" in the case of a fellow pale every possible assistance will be afforded to them to make the grade or for their entire flying careers even if they are they most useless pilots. "


i've been on the site for just over a year now,i would like to agree with the 'pales' and non 'pales'.What Gov. has done is taken 'pure' business men/women into strategic management posts of this complex industry and some enterprises are not doing well because their leaders are not aware or cannot concieve the nature of the operational demands.

Now its a situation that needs the experienced people in business to commit,dedicate and go that extra mile to assist them and offer unconditional support to whoever may be in need,basically all you talented,educated and experienced people in the game,it is imperitive the everyone,pale or not, on both ends(senior and beginners in aviation), get that support and thats a way we'll get OUR aviation standards on the way forward

[Afriviation]

Had from one of the threads that SAA is not hiring any more pilots due to a lack of qualified non pale pilots? Well thumbs up SAA. At least there's one Company that's taking transformation seriously.

Does anyone see a business opportunity here? Train more black pilots there are more than 1000 jobs for them in SA Aviation

[reptile]

What an excelent idea afridud..........a quick trip to flight school and plonk them in airliner!

What you are conveniently forgetting is that the entry requirements for the airlines were set in a time when the positions were reserved for whites only - it is therefore not a new invention intended to slow down transformation.

Those requirements are there to ensure safety. I don't give a damn about your colour / creed / religion / sexual orientation / etc... - if you don't meet the requirement, then you don't deserve the job. Simple.

If you believe that is approach is racist, then you should be real carefull - loss of another IQ point or two will result in you starting to photosynthesize. AVOID ALL BUMPS TO THE CRANIAL REGION.

Take care buddy - would hate to lose you to the plant kingdom. :ok:

PS. If things do head that way for you, all is not lost. You can always feed on your own bull$h!t.

[fluffyfan]

Afri, poor naive Afri, what a good Idea "Stop hiring pilots because they are the wrong colour" well my friend if you work at SAA you should know that there is a critical pilot shortage and unless steps are taken soon more and more market share will be lost to ALL WHITE OWNED competition, so please stop waving your "poor black me" flag and think about the greater good of SAA and not just yourself.

If things keep going the way they are there wont be an SAA for you to work in buddy. Just one more point, you say what a good business oportunity it will be for flying schools to train black pilots, I guess its just as well you are not in business, because its generally considered business when someone pays you for your services and you make a profit.

The reason there are so many white pilots and no black pilots is that white pilots with a passion for aviation go out there, morgage homes, take second jobs, work as desk jockeys in flying schools, borrow from parents/ banks/ friends, and make a plan and go and get there licences......black pilots on the other hand stand back and say "give it to me", they are not prepared to pay a cent of there own money to get anything........so stop wining, and go and educate your black brothers on how to get a bank loan or borrow from uncle Sexwale, that way maybe we will see more black pilots.

[Shrike200]

Does anyone see a business opportunity here? Train more black pilots there are more than 1000 jobs for them in SA Aviation

So, according to you, there are positions for 1000 fresh 200 hr Com pilots in the South African aviation industry?

Wake up. You're not providing any useful suggestions here at all.

[beechbum]

Guys guys guys.....I can't believe this thread is 11 pages long and we're still going on about the same boring thing:yuk: :yuk: This Afri character has wound up half of Pprune in the last few months (including me!) and I see nothing has changed. The guy still has his head in the sand and will continue to do so until someone takes it off. :ouch: I've been called rascist and every other name under the sun and have reiterated(?) much as you all have on this topic. There will be those tree huggers that will never see the light and neither will Afriman cos his head is still in the sand......and I think always will be!
Give it up fellas......
I quote from one of the guys on the other forum
"Arguing on the internet is like running the Special Olympics.....even if you win, you're still retarded"
Anyway my 5 cents worth...which these days ain't worth much.

[Blah Blah Fishpaste]

Good grief what a short sighted knob Afri!

Its been an interesting read to say the least! but whats with all this pale and non pale stuff? Call it like it is folks, we are talking black and white here, or is that racist as well?

Ill have a white coffee thanks, not a coffee with milk!

Or should we say pink or brown? oooh no, that becums porno then?

[fluffyfan]

Afri well done on starting such a emotive thread, its nice to have somewhere to say these things and chat to eachother.

Please just read the other views as well as your own, you will notice that everyone is saying yes we need more black pilots, give us more black pilots, however our differences surface when we talk of how to impliment this transformation, the doors are wide open for you guys, there is nothing stopping you except that there just seems to be a lack of young black people trying to get there licences, and I personally dont understand why, its not poverty, the black middle class is growing exponentially in SA, every second BMW 4x4 or Mercedes driving our streets these days has a black person in it. Many a poor white person has got there licence, there is no reason that black people cant do the same.

A bit of Insite into SAA, SAA is presently hiring white pilots, they are desparatley short and the void can not be filled by the BEE group so government has given the go ahead to hire whites......sorry to burst your bubble. Also, I am not sure you are in SAA because you have a basic lack of knowledge about things to do with SAA, the black pilots I see and chat to at SAA are good guys who have a passion for aviation they are very aware of the effect accelerated promotion will have on how they are viewed, they also know its law that must be complied with, unfortunatley SAA management and government have done nothing to comply with the law and now its up to the pilot group to come up with a solution hence the current negotiations that will hopefully be equitable to all.

If you intend getting into SAA, dont just hope your black skin is all the qualifications you will need, even if you are a cadet you will need to pass interviews and tests to finally get in, if you spew racist venom like you have been on this web site then you will be thrown out of that interview room very fast, there is no tolerance for racism of any sort at SAA...........good luck

[nugpot]

SAA is presently hiring white pilots, they are desparatley short and the void can not be filled by the BEE group so government has given the go ahead to hire whites......


Is this rumour or truth Fluffy? Last Thursday (11/3) it was still "we do not have permission to hire".

[LadyM]

As someone who is not involved in the aviation industry, I would like to express my disappointment. Afriviation, I simply cannot believe you are still trying to go on about this issue and ruffle feathers 11 pages later. Your arguments are very poor, and I certainly hope you don't fly the way you argue. How on earth did you even manage to get your license? You talk about pale people getting to where they are due to their parents. Well, these poor guys have been very hard done by, because I bet your parents didn't have to pay a cent! Please forgive me for not feeling sorry for you and your past grievances, but you seem to have done enough of that yourself. One last thing - GIVE IT UP ALREADY - you lost the argument on page 1.

[beechbum]

Nugs have on good authority that:
1. Several candidates have received police clearance letters in the last couple of days for accepatance into SAA.
2. The training files of said candidates are ready for those selected at SAA flight ops.
Anyway if you received a call at the end of Feb and then a few hours later was told "NO".........hang five cos it might just happen.
3. Nugs are you one of them? If so good luck holding thumbs for all who want to go.....vasbyt manne!!!!:ok: :ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Onya Nugs! Well done and hope it works out for you...:ok:

[reptile]

Nugs....be cool..the trawlers are calling!

[chopper-wrench]

Hey you guys, this guy has got it made man!
Afri throws one small bone and all the BIG dogs dive foir it:=
DON'T STOP 'COS IT'S FUN TO WATCH!:E

[mhfourie]

Maybe you can enlighten us all and give us some figures of "representation" in the aviation industry. How many "non pales" are out there doing their PPL's compared to pale faces? I do NOT see "non pales" in the industry, so how do you suggest we get the "demographics" right. Must we import them from the rest of Arfica?

[mhfourie]

I find it disturbing that you are the only "non pale" responding to this thread. Where are all the other "non pales" who are supposd to "level the playing field"? Why are they not responding to this thread?


A lot of questions have been asked, and many respondants made quite valid points. Would you mind responding to those?:hmm:

[Woof etc]

MHFourie

Try looking on wheresmyBMW.com

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Perhaps the government is a little concerned at the reaction of the Star Alliance to their heretofore politically motivated pilot recruitment campaign for SAA? Perhaps this will be known in the annals of history as the geat white amnesty?
In any event, I would go for it like smoke. Good luck! :)

[gb346]

sorry to those who are waiting,
have it on good authority that SAA were about to employ regardless of colour but the big boss canned the whole thing.
has more to do with the company being in the poo rather than a political/colour thing.

[Afriviation]

Transformation is slow in SA Aviation, Who is doing anything about it? No one. The parastatals maybe, some of them. The people in general aviation who are mostly white, wish there wasn't any transformation. I am not going to repeat the principles behind my argument, which have been repeated over and over again in this thread.

The industry needs to come up with solutions to redress the situation, not me not any of you ppruners. All other industries are doing it. look at the accounting, engineering and those fields. Folks it's just a matter of time that the government picks up on this and something is forced down on the industry.

This is not my squable, I've made an observation and yes it's true. Clearly the topic has generated a lot of interest judging by the number of responses, unfortuntely most hitting at me and not addressing the problem.

Day in Day out people in this forum complain of BEE etc. I say the complaining is not warranted judging by the severe lack of representitivity in this industry.

Now let me repeat this, Afriviation is not creating a problem, the problem exists because of this country's history.

Here is the conservative stats

Out of more than 3000 commercial pilots in SA, less than 150 are black, that's less than 5%. In a country with more than 85% black people. disgraceful indeed

Lastly if I'm talking so much kak, why are you even bothering to honour me with your responses and lowering yourselves to my level?

[gb346]

Yes, you are right, those stats are appalling.

So why don't those affected the most get off their lazy arses and do something positive and constructive to remedy the situation, and I don't mean misappropriating taxpayers' money for more freebies and handouts???

Come, prove us "racist whites" wrong. Prove that you can do something on your own.

I fear for your sake, that you will fail dismally.

[an12]

Do you really believe the drivel that comes out of your mouth. As one African to another brother. You are an idiot! Have you ever been outside of South Africa, to the rest of Africa.

You beat the drum of transformation but really you are trying to cover you up the fact that you are a racist! You are the kind of guy who does not believe he can be racist because he is black. You belive that you have earned your place in SAA. sad

Madiba's dream of a rainbow nation was to include everyone. Not just the privilaged few. Alot of us know about your connection that got you into SAA. So please dont act like the cadet scheme is really benefiting the under privilages because it is not. I am not complainin I got into SAA same way you did. I dont believe we deserve it. We are here by hugh good fortune.

I have travelled africa and there is truth in the fact that Africa is ungovernable and not because the people are incompetent. But because there is always some greedy idiot running the show! Africa biggest problem is there under utilisation of its resource and potential. Forced change is not the way, to rectify it!

Having our White brothers and sisters (that you are so desperately trying to get ride of) in SA is more beneficial to the contry than not having them. SA is seriously devoid of EXPERIENCE. I was educated by the European benefactors of the struggle but without experience I really cannot offer what someone with 20 years experience can.

Maybe you should be a little open to the idea that boertjie, who has been sitting in the left set can actually teach you something!

I should be fast tracked to command soon and pray that I dont have to do a night stop with someone as obtuse and narrow minded as you.

Here is a though...Rainbow Nation. A Rainbow does not have black or white in it!

Fly safe!

[LongJohnThomas]

A round of applause to you man!
Just what the white man wants!!!
I suggest you keep comments about your fellow blackmen to yourself or do it face to face if you have the guts!
You have succeded in making an outright prick of yourself and your so-called meaning to be on the fence about issues that will eventually affect you.
I have flown airplanes on every continent and frankly, there's only one way to fly, THE RIGHT WAY!!!!!
Your comments are baseless and i see a lack of confidence in your ablility to be captain. Being a commander has a lot more to it than meeting flight time pre-requisites you know? Your IQ has to fit the bill, which i think at this point yours totals approximately -5 to be generous.
Good luck to those that fly with you, you are a danger even to yourself!!!

[nugpot]

An12 - I will fly with you any day.

LongJohnThomas - I hope that nobody dies in your inevitable accident.

[LongJohnThomas]

There we go, prime them, and true to their colour they readily jump at the bait!
Wish you lot, lots of luck, you're gonna need it mates.

[oba_idan_amani]

Good one LongJohnThomas, I think we can all safely deduce that An12 and nugpot are the same person. You guys amaze me. Jeez.

Oba Idan Amani

[gb346]

LJThomas,
Unlike the African leaders who cover up for their thieving and morally and politically corrupt co-leaders, we should appreciate all views regardless, even if a "black man" disagrees with another "fellow black man" or white on white for that matter.
Or are you and your bretheren more used to dictatorships where you go with the flow or suffer the consequences.
During the Apartheid era, there where those whites who were prepared to vote yes and make a change against something they didn't agree with even though they were making a statement against their fellow whites. Why then should AN12 keep quiet?????
PS: You are not welcome in our rainbow nation . . . . P r O t E a S

[LongJohnThomas]

Your "RAINBOW NATION" does not impress me nor is it anything i would want to be a part of, after seeing what you guys are capable of.
Like i said before, you'll need all the luck you can get with this attitude!!!....

[reptile]

AN12 - as a gentleman and aviator i salute you!

This is not a question of black or white. As pilots responsible for the lives of passengers, this is a question of experience and inexperience. Colour would make the equation look good, but experience takes time. Mess with that and the conclusion is foregone.

Flying is inherently dangerous. We like to gloss that over with clever rhetoric and comforting statistics, but the facts remain: gravity is constant and powerful, and speed kills. In combination, they are particularly destructive.

[nugpot]

Good one LongJohnThomas, I think we can all safely deduce that An12 and nugpot are the same person. You guys amaze me. Jeez.


Your powers of deduction are quite flawed old chap. Having two separate log-ins will get you banned here.

I guess with your attitude you fly as safely as you deduce.

As for LongJohnThomas. Quite ironic that you tell Africans with European forefathers to get out of Africa, while you give your location as the United Kingdom. Glimpses of pot and kettle here.

[ak6181]

For once i think you guys should give it a rest.
LJT and the rest of you, we are supposed to be helping one another and seeking ways to better our little lives and not trying franctically to kill the other.
Grow up guys!

[HappyPilot]

Thank God,
for once on these forums we are starting to see a mix of views, its very welcome guys, keep them coming. At least all the moaning and whinging about BEE, black people can actually be challenged. Oh and for an12, one piece of advice, dont think that by kissing ass you are now part of them, you are dancing with one of the most racist group of people on this panet and when their true colours(no pun intended) show, you'll realise what a coconut you've been, white on the inside, black on the outside and most of all, accepted by neither. LJT, oba_idan_amani, Afriviation keep them coming!!!

HP

[wheels up]

Thought I would make some observations here, since I think the whole thrust of this argument might be construed by some as some as being a white/black racial issue:

Well to some extent it is. But why do Afrivations' posts elicite such passionate response from the white aviators out there? Is it because the white pilots out there have something against black pilots? Is it because white pilots are p*ssed off that black pilots are being fast-tracked at government expense into positions denied to eminently more qualified white pilots?

No, I think not. I have had the opportunity to work with and fly with black pilots in a contract environment. Most of the black guys I have been associated with have been perfectly competent pilots and have integrated seamlessly in all respects. In fact race has never been an issue at all from my observations. We work together, live together, socialise together and learn from each other. I think you will find that most of the white guys out there that fly with black pilots will tell a similar story.

As for the fast-track into the national carrier: Sure us white guys are a bit p%ssed off about that. That said, most of the white pilots out there have accepted it as the political reality, dealt with it and moved on. Most of us don't hold a grudge against the black guys for seizing the opportunities given to them - they would be fools if they didn't - good luck to you!

Then what is it in Afrivations posts that p$sses on our batteries?

I'll tell you what it is: It the old big chip on the shoulder, blame it on apartheid, its all the white man's fault bs. As a black pilot you have never had it so good. Show a modicum of interest in aviation and a bit of commitment and the world is your oyster.

There are many, many white pilots out there that have shown great commitment and dedication, sacrificed a huge amount financially, physically and emotionally, yet are relegated to second rate jobs in some of the toughest flying and living conditions on the continent, if not the planet, due to the colour of their skin. And then here comes Afrivation, from his lofty perch at SAA admonishing us for being racist and not doing enough to transform SA aviaition. Instead of accepting the fantastic opportunties he has been given graciously, he grinds it in and then spits in our faces.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but THAT is what p$sses me off.

BTW: HP you know jacksh$t! Tarring a group of people with the same brush - that is EXACTLY what you do in your above post. Now thats racism.

[mhfourie]

Afri, thank you for the figures. The reason I asked that question is as follows:

I have absolutely NOTHING against black pilots. In other words, colour is not an issue to me personally. If you have the passion, the ability and the determination to be a good pilot, then we all talk the same language. SAA is currently employing pilots of colour in order to get the demograpics right. The problem here is that of a population of say roughly 35mil blacks in SA, only 150 out of 3000 commercial pilots are black!! Doesnt it stike you as odd?

What would you say, Afri, is the reason for these low figures?

Are wannabe black pilots discriminated against if they walk into a flying school?

Is it that blacks dont have the money to finance their kid's passion for flying?

Are black kids not exposed to the posibility of becoming a pilot?

Or is it just that becoming a pilot is not on the top of the "to-do-list" of most blacks?

Maybe it is a combination of various factors, but I believe the reason for the low represention lies in the passion for flight....maybe only a few blacks took up what they were "called for in life", i.e flying.

Regardless of what the non-flying types may say, flying is NOT such a glamorous job they make it to be.......UNLESS YOU HAVE A PASSION FOR AEROPLANES!! It is damn hard work and takes determination to become a pilot. And then it is even harder to get a propper job.

I think that is why you got so many responses and critique from mostly the white okes....they had to work hard to get their wings, some holding two jobs to finance their dream just to be told that they are too white to be in the majors and most of the blacks at SAA were handed their wings on a golden platter. Let me emphasize....MOST, not ALL!!

Be greatfull for your achivement, whether you deserved it or not, and be sensitive to us wannabe's out there.

Experience comes with time and time is no-one's slave. Anyone can fly, but when the chips are down, and the s**t is approaching the fan at M.80, then the only thing thats gonna safe your ass, black or white, is EXPERIENCE!!

Fly safe and proud

:D :D :D

[Afriviation]

mhfourie, the history of South Africa has everything to do wih the figures. Black people were oppressed. That means it is was a job simply not open to anyone except a white man. I'm not sure where you come from, but this is a fact everyon e in South Africa knows. Things should have started changing after the 1994 elections and guess what 11 years later no sgnificant change.

Passion is impossible with ignorance. As you would agree, Aviation industry is significantly small in SA and even today not too many black people know about aeroplanes and jobs in Aviation.

Now you can harp all you like about hard work and passion etc, fact remains, most experienced pilots in SA today were bred in the SA Airforce, Was it open for blacks? Negative Sir.

Now you can work hard all you like to earn your wings, blacks need the same opportunities that were given to whites during the years of apartheid and level the playing fields. And that has not happened in SA albeit the numeous complaints and moaning about the very few that have been afforded the opportunity.

The contention that have resulted fom my posts on this thread is because of the reality I have exposed that despite the tough competition that exists in Aviation today, this is only a tip of the iceberg as the majority of the population still has to be accomodated in this wonderful career. off course the truth hurts.

Passion, Hardwork, dedication, commitment and ability to accumulate experience are not unique qualities to white people. Blacks are as capable if the playing fields are level.

We need a rainbow aviation industry in a rainbow nation.

[wheels up]

PUUULEAAASE!!! What a load of horse-sh*t. I can't name a single SAAF trained pilot amongst my colleagues. I was denied entry to SAAF and SAA due to the colour of my skin - should I demand compensation? We're talking about levelling the playing field in the current generation here, not ancient history - where exactly do we draw the line? I would love to have been a WW2 fighter pilot but was disadvantaged by having been born in 1971 - so unfair! Apartheid died over 15 years ago, the cold war is over, the Berlin wall is no more - deal with it and move on - the rest of the world has.

"Passion is impossible with ignorance. As you would agree, Aviation industry is significantly small in SA and even today not too many black people know about aeroplanes and jobs in Aviation."

Huh??? As a kid I knew nothing about aeroplanes - I had to get off my arse and go and find out for myself. Nobody stoked my passion - it was entirely self inflicted. In fact, my family actively discouraged me from getting involved in commercial aviation (should have listen - you were right dad).

Now you want the passion handed to you on a plate as well. Oh dear, you will never understand...

"Blacks are as capable if the playing fields are level."

What are you blabbering on about??? The field is sloping all the way downhill if you are black and can recognise the subtle differences between a brick outhouse and a Spitfire.

Change comes from within.

[Afriviation]

How on earth do you forget about history when it shaped the situation in this country, pleaaase. Another classic example of the me me me syndrome. What about us us us (35 million thanks mhfourie)

I'm deeply moved about your history but even more moved about the lack of representitivity in Aviation in our country. You should prepare that testimony for your next interview, it will touch the hardest employer.

[wheels up]

And the Battle of Trafalgar and the Reformation deeply affected the history of our country as well. So what????? This is 2006.

If you are so touched by the lack of representation in the industry why don't you go out there and do something productive and put something back for a change. When's the last time you took a kid flying, gave a talk at a school, helped a kid build a model plane, taught someone to fly?

I'm interested - what contribution have YOU ever made to this industry??? Nothing I bet.

[Afriviation]

Thats the government's job, so let them do it and support it and don't ridicule a worthy cause in forums like these. Once again this is not about afriviation it's much bigger than him. He's just a cheeky black boy with a big mouth.

[Afriviation]

My my my, this is what is being said behind my back. Wish everyone would avoid shooting the messenger.

Quote

Hi,

I hope this doesn't cause a stir. If somebody has a problem with this please remove from this forum

I'm also a member on PPRUNE and this is currently a hot topic.
I don't know what this guy has been smoking.

I really hope that this is not the direction we are heading in.
It will be a really sad day if it is

Here is the link http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37)

Kind Regards
Felix

Looks like a troll with a chip on his shoulder. It appears he wants all pilots of a certain pigmentation who've worked to get where they are to just roll over in favour of another group. Don't think he realises that a lot of those guys have to work outside SA by necessity caused by discriminatory policies, not by choice...

I guess this would hold true in this case...

A man will fight for many things... Glory, his country, the glistening tear on a child's cheek........

But personally, I'd mud wrestle my mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn

That dude is a freekin idiot - Just read that thread but I aint gonn take part in such crap

Felix,

Interesting link !!

What can I say other than "Boo Hoo"
_________________
A Smith & Wesson beats five Aces

RED POST sums it up very well.....
_________________
My soul is in the sky." -- William Shakespeare

Snoops

very sad individual indeed!!!!

I wonder with how many hours he got into SAA Chip on his shoulder is a freaken understatement!!!!
_________________
Gunfree South Africa
Suck my Glock

When issues of race rear their head(heads) it's amazing how quickly logic goes out the window. I wonder if the original pPrune poster has looked at the SAA cadet scheme and asked how a pale male gets into it.I support advancement, even when it is discriminating against my own, simply because of the injustices of the past. But I get seriously peed off when a blind fool(not colour blind as I'd like us all to be) uses his colour to send all logic out the door. Sadly, though, a few of us are responding with emotion only as well.

Rod Smith

What I'd have liked to see is not a single response from anyone... Can you imagine how pissed off he'd be then
_________________
Gravity sucks.

Unqoute

Poor Afri, how did you get yourself into this mess? Lesson 1 dont ruffle feathers. You will be punished. Well a lot has been said, fact remains Transformation in SA Aviation is going nowhere slowly.

[wheels up]

I tend to agree that Afriviation:

+ Is a troll
+ Is probably lilly white
+ Has no friends
+ Probably lives in Europe
+ Most likely has never piloted a plane in his life.

Checking out.....this has got boring.