Video: Austrian EC-135 slope start in snow

[hotzenplotz]

This Video (http://www.joha.stonedblog.de/misc/chris_ausparken.mpg) is a huge download with 27 MB, but it's worth seeing.
I guess the the machine flipped back because of the soft ground, after unloading the rotor.

[Capn Notarious]

Thank you for submitting that video.

[R22DRIVER]

I liked seeing the 'Give it some oooommmppphhhh' idea to get it clear of the snow but what ever happend to one of the rules of slope landings 'Never Turn Your Tail Towards The Slope!'???

R22 :confused:

[spencer17]

Lucky guy having a fenestron instead of normal tail rotor.

@R22DRIVER That is exactly what he did or do you turn your tail towards the slope ??
Towards the slope means uphill !!

Happy landings
Spencer17

[Thomas coupling]

I was waiting for something to happen after such a long download:zzz:

[hotzenplotz]

Disappointed because this didn't resulted in an accident?

I think the interesting question is how the machine got into this situation.

Nice to see the pilot handeld that situation.

[Lima Oscar]

I think the interesting question is how the machine got into this situation.
Nice to see the pilot handeld that situation.

the center of gravity of the EC135 is really on the rear, so as you said in your first message, when unloading the rotor, on a soft snowy ground the EC' fell on his fenestron !

Fortunately the pilot handled very well this situation !

[R22DRIVER]

Spencer,

Yes i did mean ' Never turn your tail towards the Upslope' ! Sorry for any confusion!

:ok:

[puntosaurus]

That's a pretty ballsy move. I think I'd have uncovered the rear of the skids first, just to be on the safe side.

[PANews]

It seems to be quite a common problem with this operator. A few years ago there was a still image of a similar scenario with the Austrian EMS EC135 at even steeper angle tail first down the embankment of a road. Not sure how that was recovered.
At the time the image was strictly not for publication - too embarassing I guess - just one to secretly whistle over.
Now times have moved on and there is less twitchiness about any suggestion of c of g 'problems' associated with that giant bit of structure around the fenestron.
It does make you wonder if c o g issues are a hidden reason for both Agusta and Bell not taking up with the fan-in-tail after the trials they undertook. The public version is that they did not want to used the design because it was associated with EC ..... it never worried them that Sikorky used a conventional t/r.

[Thomas coupling]

There is most definitely NO C of G aft issue with the EC135. God knows we sometimes wish it was aft!!!!!

I agree with the aforementioned though. The Fan should have been cleared of all nearby snow before "unsticking".

Shame there was no crash though:ugh: [Just joking...].

[SawThe Light]

T.C. is quite correct in that the EC 135 doesn't have a C of G problem. It has a landing gear position problem.

PANews spoke of the shot of one ship that had landed across a levee or similar and it had pivoted about the rear of the skids and was stuck tail down nearly vertical down the embankment. Probably happened as the pilot stepped out. Great shot but what an embarrassment.

Pity EC can't move the rear cross-tube back another 6 inches or so though as it seems it is currently positioned directly on the C of G. Even picking the bird up with a Tug-a-lug generally requires placing some ballast on the front of the skids to prevent it from tipping backwards.

[tigerfish]

STL - Try a TLC Heli Lift. What an incredible piece of kit. It seems to lift anything. ( & I am not connected!). Seiously they are worth looking at if you have a lift & shift problem.

[Lima Oscar]

T.C. is quite correct in that the EC 135 doesn't have a C of G problem. It has a landing gear position problem.


i haven't said that the EC135 have a CG problem ;)

[SawThe Light]

Lima Oscar

I agree that you didn't say it had a problem, just that it "is really on the rear". I was simply agreeing with TC that it didn't. Other than the nasty trait of wanting to sit on its tail on the ground, it is a delightful little machine.

[Hilico]

Mass of tail boom = 60kg if I remember a comment by the Essex Air Ambulance correctly.

[FlyingHead]

Just a thought, if the pilot had test the density of the snow during landing, by "jerking" the collective up and down in a gentle manner, maybe he could avoid the situation.

Cheers
Dick

[Lima Oscar]

Lima Oscar
I agree that you didn't say it had a problem, just that it "is really on the rear". I was simply agreeing with TC that it didn't. Other than the nasty trait of wanting to sit on its tail on the ground, it is a delightful little machine.

Ok no problem ;)

[FloaterNorthWest]

I always wished EC had moved the skid 6 inches rearward, it would have stopped it appearing in the camera lens!

Artist formerly known as FNW.

[Seniorpilot]

Hi folks,:)
this is Gilbert, the Austrian EC135 pilot (shown in action on the video)!


......if the pilot had test the density of the snow during landing, by "jerking" the collective up and down in a gentle manner, maybe he could avoid the situation. ....



Of course, I did! I also told the HEMS-crew to get out and report, wether the snow-skids where fully on the ground and how the surface is. He reported: "both skids well on ground, surface is hard"!
I shut down and when the rotor stopped, I went out normally. Just when my feet touched the ground, I heard a "sort of scratching" noise and the EC sunk rearwards, until the Fenestron-housing stopped it!
Actually the surface was frozen hard, but there was sort of powder-snow down under. The snow-skids would sink, including a greater piece of the hard surface!
Never experienced this before - flying EC135 since 1997 in mountainous areas of Austria.:ooh:
I have checked the situation of the Fenstron eagerly and decided, NOT to dig it out because I was afraid, it could sink even deeper?
We also tried to pull the aircraft into it`s normal attitude - no way!

The "recovery" maneuver was not a real problem - despite I should have made it a bit less harsh!? No limit on mast-moment, no uncommon feeling - she moved a bit too fast but, well, that was it! (No such training ever before!)

Losses: the tail-bumper was slightly damaged, replaced and a special-check was carried out. No further damages.
Reliable aircraft? I guess....

Kind regards,

old Gil. :D

[Lima Oscar]

Welcome Gilbert !

Thanks for the explications and well done ;)

Regards

LO

[FlyingHead]

Hi Gilbert, sorry I didn't want to offence you. But you are right I saw similar thing happen in Canada. An Astar land by a lake, where the snow seem to be ok but when the rotor stop and the pilot disembark, the A/C sunk in the snow. I was flying by and the pilot call me to look during he attemp a take off, same as yours. Basically good job.
Cheers
Dick

[Phoinix]

Hello Gilbert

Thanks for those explanations. One thing still bothers me. Why didn't you dig away the snow from the top of the skids? Wasn't that the main obstacle sticking you to the ground?

[Seniorpilot]

Hi Phoinix:)

yeah, was thinking about this (even the snow on top of the skid was not the real reason for "sinking")
Finally, I decided, not to remove snow or dig somehow for not to destabilise the tricky ground!
Seen retrospectively, I would move more slowly (but I had to consider the mast-moment limit, of course) !:hmm:

Lesson learned: TAKE ADDITIONAL CARE - NEVER TRUST THE SNOW TOO MUCH!

Kindest regards,

old Gil.:)

[Phoinix]

We all make mistakes and we all learn; from our own experiences and from others. Thank you for sharing that one with us :)

In the end, everything turned out OK, that's important :ok:

Regards

[Gerhardt]

Like the others said, thanks for the narrative, and we're all glad everything worked out well!

[Phoinix]

Hey Gilbert!

Someone over here wishes to know, if you are still wearing those big moustache :}

[Seniorpilot]

Hi Phoinix:)

yes,yes - part of me! (Helps to balance....!)

Kind regards,

Gilbert, the senior

[warrigal]

Good onya Gil! Tricky terrain, tricky surface and tricky recovery.Well done!

[Seniorpilot]

Hi Warrigal:)

Yeah - my wording! Thank you!
Another lesson learned, yes!
This time, tricky terrain and conditions every day!
Foggy weather, fresh snow, poor visibility - many missions!
Last weekend, we had stormy northwind - up to 80 kts max. in 12000ft!
Hard winter this year!
You`re better off in Australia, rather than in Austria, at the time beeing?
I dream so....

Kind regards,

old Gil:) :)