Unemployed and too busy to send a letter?

[E cam]

The CAA have rcommended the approval of the Excel 767 wet lease. They recieved objections from BALPA, IPA and ONE MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC!!! We get what we deserve.

[Joyce Tick]

And why not, E Cam? I've been on wet lease to Australia (yes, in '89), Amsterdam, Malta and Yugoslavia. All the work for Brit crews abroad. We should all be more flexible about who flies where, don't you think?

[Sir Kitt Braker]

I say, E Cam old boy, I hope you never eat out in any Chinese or Indian restaurants run by all those foreign chappies. All those unemployed English school leavers and undergrads deprived of a chance to cook for us. Shameful eh?

[skymarshal 1]

And what about the Skysevice A330 lease with AIH which has been operating this winter?

I find it hard to believe the CAA allows this in view of all the pilot redundancies and excess capacity.

No doubt this aircraft will operate the summer season also?

[Sir Kitt Braker]

Skymarshall - what in Heaven's name has the CAA got to do with pilot employment policy? They are a licensing and safety organization!

[fireflybob]

What makes you think that our British Government would act in the best interests of a handful of it's citizens!?

Fax your MP via the internet - I just have at:-

<a href="http://www.faxyourmp.com/" target="_blank">Fax Your MP</a>

History seems to repeat itself in this regard.

[Jack The Lad]

Ecam, and why the hell shouldn't they approve the wet lease? Tell me on what grounds?

They are short of metal. Flown by EU guys, so why not?

Everyone, including BALPA,IPA and other objectors should at least find 'substantive' grounds on which to object, otherwise, case of crying wolf again.

IPA did once object on serious grounds against BA, but at that time BALPA were supporting it. That was a travesty.

Now it seems vogue to object to anything at all.

One salient feature that most here seem to forget is that the UK is no longer...we are part of Europe and the European rules apply...forget looking after UK jobs, its EU jobs now. I didn't make the rules, but they are what they are!

Also, start thinking worldwide. Monarch win all sorts of wet leases around the world (do you want to stop that Ecam?), look at Airtours, Airworld, in their previous guise, and so on. What about all the Brits in Korea, Hong Kong, Japan, Middle East, in short, all over the world? Think laterally and globally guys or shoot yourselves in the foot.

[fmgc]

You are all talking rubbish. Of course we should be protecting our own jobs, and not just that our own companies as well.

[Only A Few More Seasons]

I cannot remember too many British 767 pilots applying to Air Atlanta/Excel a couple of years ago. Oh and by the way,last year 97% of the operation was piloted by EUs and a couple of right to live and works - whats the problem? . .On the other hand, kick Air Atlanta out - buy a load of old 767s fly them this summer with UK pilots, pay their wages all winter = go broke in the spring.Wise up.. .Having said all that - which company has been constantly recruiting and in so much, at least giving a little ray of hope to all those poor bastards who have been told they are no longer required by all those great BALPA run independant airlines,who have now got an ex NHS conveynor negotiating for them.

Too bloody tired for all this!

[Jack The Lad]

fmgc...of course we are all talking rubbish.

ever heard of the one; hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laffed....etc

[Diesel8]

Tell you what chappies. We shall reserve all the pilot jobs in the UK to UK boys, but all the UK boys currently flying in non UK countries must return home. Sound like a deal?? Thought not, so as it was so famously put: Bu-gger off!"

[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: Diesel8 ]</p>

[ShotOne]

I admire your cheek in posting that from Chicago! So how come the US authorities -under pressure from their unions have an outright ban on airlines from the UK -or anywhere else -competing for such contracts in the USA... And that's before we even mention your "Fly America" policy, or the one-sided restrictions on foreign ownership.

If this is OK in Manchester or Gatwick, Diesel 8, how come it is NOT OK in Chicago??

[faq]

Further to your point skymarshall 1, what about the four A320 Skyservice will operate for Airtours/mytravel this summer?

[skymarshal 1]

Can somebody tell me how many G,C,TF reg aircraft are flying for USA tour operators this summer within the USA?

Faq. .Yes, I believe these Skyservice A320s will operate from the smaller bases again, as well as that reliable A330, which I believe had major maintenance problems last year whilst on ETOPS.

[Jack The Lad]

Shotone

Forgive me for asking, but am I right in thinking that you work for Airtours? If so, I would hope you have equally castigated your employers over these very same issues? Rather delicate matter however to bite the hand that feeds it, I would have thought.

I know this must give some problems for one of the IPA directors who is very active in these issues, but also receives his salary from same company.

[Diesel8]

Shot one,

Well, for quite some time, both Ryan Int'l and Transmeridian has had exchange programs going. Ryan with G and EI airplanes and crews. Transmeridian used to be hooked up with Transair, operating with EI a/c and crews. Currently Apple Vacations, a large tour operator, is utilizing a few different carriers, amongst others Allegro from Mexico. You can operate charters in the US, you just have to have rights into whatever country you wish to fly, ie, nothing prevents a British company form flying for Apple between the US and the UK.

As far as what the rules are in the US and the UK, well, that is something for you to change. Pressure your goverment, your appointed leaders, our unions! But, as the starter of this topic said, only one public response. Interresting!

Also, I should poin out, that the IT market is nowhere near as big in the US as it is in the EU in general and the UK specifically.

Your take on this?

[Boss Raptor]

From an independant point of view I have to say from what I have seen over the years BALPA dont give a monkeys' about anyone outside themselves...not even BA...oops probably started another arguement...sorry had to be said and I have no axe to grind, haven't worked in UK for anytime in my career...and I am a british citizen!

[E cam]

1, Iceland is not part of the EU.

2, It is not just staff facing redundency; we have hulls laid up as well.

3, Try putting an EU aircraft into USA - no chance (or even Iceland).

4, (for Sir Kitt Braker )CAA Economic Regulation Unit are responsible for recommending to HMG whether this type of operatiopn should go ahead.

[Jack The Lad]

1. But Iceland is part of EEA....go read the rules

2. Got any B767's laid up?...if so, go give 'em a good rate

3. Yes, there are EU aircraft flying in both USA and Canada on regular basis

4. So what?

[Exclusive Mandate]

Wise Up Guys / Gals

This is exactly why aviation is bound up in protectionism.....The day the whole industry gets a grip and realises one standard / one market / the better....

You have to realise, the world doesn't owe you a living...your country doesn't even owe you a living even though you pay taxes...Just because you have qualifications, doesn't give you the right to a job...there are plenty others out there like you.

For all those of you pilots whinging about non nationals taking your jobs, just look at all those nationals out there taking the jobs of the natives......

Aviation is global, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen..

[ShotOne]

Maybe it's you who needs to wise up mandate. The single aviation market etc. that you describe might be a good idea. But it simply does not exist and isn't likely to for many years.

Wet leasing in the USA -with a very small number of tightly controlled exceptions is a no-no and "Fly America" blatantly discriminates against all non-US carriers. And what about the huge furore in Canada only last month when Air 2000 bid for a contract which was only a fraction of the size of the one discussed here?

[Dionysos]

E Cam. .In reply to your original point I think you will find that only qualified parties (AOC holders, trade bodies etc) are entitled to lodge a representation in response to a proposal such as this in the Official Record.

[fmgc]

It is not a level playing field.

Excel are able to compete on an unfair basis as they do not have to meet all the costs of ownership and employment during the slow winter periods that many of their competitors do.

How can you not care or are you all so far removed from reality?

It is also wrong to compare this with Brits flying abroad in places like Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE etc. as those nations NEEDED the ex-pats due to loack of native experience.

Jack the Lad

[quote] ever heard of the one; hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laffed....etc . . <hr></blockquote>

A well argued and reasoned point of view!!!!!!

Perhaps "I'm alright, Jack" Would be more appropriate!!!

Diesel8

[quote] As far as what the rules are in the US and the UK, well, that is something for you to change. Pressure your goverment, your appointed leaders, our unions! But, as the starter of this topic said, only one public response. Interresting!

<hr></blockquote>

I think that this is what E cam is trying to suggest that we do, and there have been many posts on this forum on this topic. However people like Jack the Lad just do not seem to be in favour of this.

Funny that all the posts in the past have been very anti wet leasing and now all of a sudden most people seem to think that it is fair.

Has Tony Blair really knocked our British morale to such a low level as this?

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: fmgc ]</p>

[password]

Skymarshall 1 seem to recall seeing lillte green A320's in ORD for the last couple of years..... .Are all the Britpilots not also classed as EU pilots, forgive me if i'm wrong, but couldn't they all apply to Excel, Air Atlanta and anyone else who happens to set up an airline in UK, unless you're all to good for these charter chappies.....

[Nearly Retired]

fmgc - Excel have had the wit to realise that effectively shutting down in the winter is the key to survival in today's UK charter market. Which would you rather have - a summer job or none?