300 hour pilots

[profibus]

Just curious to know how things work in America and Canada.

Is the reason that low time (300+ hr) guys in the US and Canada don't get into flying the bigger aircraft (i.e. big turbpops and jets) due to insurance companines requiring a minimum number of hours ? Or is it mainly because theres plenty of guys with 2000+ hours around which sets the bar high ? Or both ?

Do aviaition insurance companies not allow an airline to employ 250 hour guys? How come Asia has such low time guys - my guess. Supply & demand.

[UB6IB9]

well you're pretty much right on the money...it's actually a bit of both. it's a bit harder over here because there are no cadet schemes of any sort. there are no Oxford APP programs to place you within an airline at 250!!!!the US have showed a bit more promise in placing pilot's at only 600 hrs in a regional jet. usually through an affiliated school.....and most guys getting on have university degrees. actually it's a major requirement for the major carriers. in canada.........THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!! most guys getting on at our regional carriers have well over 2500+++ with heavy turboprop time. to our flag carrier....well that's a different story!!!!!!!! for one thing...in canada education hasn't played that much of a role in pilot selection...however recently some would disagree.

now things are really starting to move in the cold white north. it's been pretty bad the last few years...but it's starting to turn around. again...turning around meaning you may be lucky to get a right seat job in a single or twin turbine...but definately not a regional or flag carrier.

my advice (for whatever it's worth) is if you have the money...stay in europe. attend an integrated school....flight instruct.....or pay for a type of some sort.

all the best

cheers

[Nimbus5]

For one thing, the FAA has a charter to promote General Aviation in the USA, not just regulate it. They are also given the budget to do the job. For this reason, Stateside flying is cheaper than almost anywhere and pilots are a dime a dozen. This makes for a very different climate than one encounters in the UK, where the CAA are required to make a profit and there simply to regulate.

It has little to do with insurance companies and everything to do with over supply of pilots.

For those who complain about 200 hour guys getting jet jobs, just what do they think the armed forces have on the front lines? Why is it somehow okay for a 200 hour pilot to fly turboprops, but not jets. Anyone who's flown both knows the turboprop has a higher workload, so why is it somehow okay to put the low hour guy in the more demanding environment? Is it simply because you had to go that route and you're jealous someone else has found a different way?

[cplpilot]

I still don't belive on the supply/demand thing.:hmm:
TTCs bus driver in Toronto make 60K AVERAGE a year how many bus driver can you find in the market? less than pilots? ...i don't think so...
I think all has to do with the age of new pilots (too young and out of KFC) and no union/goverment interest.

[Dockjock]

I think you'll find the standard deviation around the TTC average of $60K is quite small ie. they start at $55K and top out at $65K. With pilots I'd venture that the average salary industry wide in Canada is closer to $80K but with huge standard deviation ie. some pilots make $8K while a few others make $250K.
Averages do not tell the whole picture, particularly in aviation.

[UB6IB9]

for the record...i totally agree with what you guys are saying. i mean if the usaf or even better the us navy can stick a 23 year old-pimple faced kid in the cockpit of an advanced fighter jet trainer/transport ect ect...and even have him land on a floating piece of tarmac like an aircraft carrier i'm sure with the right training all freshly minted ICAO CPL pilot's should be able to strap on a king air or wide body boeing.

but unfortunately it doesn't always happen...especially in different parts of the world like out west

well anyways

cheers boys and all the best

[cplpilot]

ok Dockjock what about rail?!!! a train driver after few month course STARTS a 60K, i think you can find a lot of potential train driver around....

[Dockjock]

What about rail? I don't see the parallel (no pun intended). So what if they start out at $60K, do any train drivers anywhere make $250K? I'd guess not.

Think about it this way- there are no private train instructors, pipeline patrol trains, float trains, or really any trains that hold fewer than 200 people. The low pay for pilots starting out is a reflection of the amount of revenue the aircraft they are flying generates. Does a C150 generate the same amount of revenue as a 150-car freight train? No. So it pays less. Now does a 150-car freight train generate the same revenue as a 400 passenger jet? Probably in the ballpark, but the pilot of that jet must have a lot more training, and ultimately has a more demanding job with more responsibilitiy. Thus the greater pay. It really isn't complicated when you step outside of your frustration and look at the big picture.

Anyway the original question was answered in the 2nd post. In North America there are no direct entry airline jobs because of the vast GA industry. Airlines can look for and get applicants that already have thousands of hours, so they do.

[cplpilot]

Hey Dockjock i am not trying to p..s you off, i think your evaluation is 100% correct but not complete and, please, consider it as my opinion only:ok:
I was paying 40$/hr (on a C150) for an instructor (plus the airplane) but, trust me, the guy was lucky if he got 15-20$. And never mind instructor rating!!! 150$/hour ground training!!!! you think the poor instructor make the 150?
In part you are right, but i also think the all industry here take advantage of the young low-timers to have cheap and submissive (i hope the spell is good:\ ) labour.
Dash 8 in AC makes 38K per year, why a pilot in europe on the same airplane make doble than that?
A very good friend of mine (and very good pilot) left Canada to Europe with 900TT and is now flying 747 for a more than a decent salary, why this does not happend here?
And again, why military low-timers can fly f18 and civilian pilot cannot find a job on the C206? Is it the training?
Again i just have an opinion, don't get mad....

[c150driver]

why a pilot in europe on the same airplane make doble than that?


Im not sure how it is in all parts of Europe, but a friend of mine in London, UK makes about twice what I do on the same type of airplane....when I went over there for a few days, I realised that everything costs about twice what it does here, so he is no further ahead...

[cplpilot]

It's true, life in Europe is more expensive but UK is the most expensive country (specially London). I can tell you about Italy and i can tell you for sure that all pilots i know have their own house and no mortgage. All got their job with less than a 1000 hours (some with 3-400 hours) and they all have a more-than-average lifestyle. Instructors, for example are usually retired commercial/military pilots and make MUUUUUCH more money than here. In Italy there are CATEGORY minimum salary, so pilots minimum wage is different from the waiter minimum. This consider education, responsibility, education costs, etc... i think this was a big accomplishment for Italian unions...and pilots...:ok:
Whith this i am faaaaaar from saying that european aviation is better than here, JAA regs are a nightmare!!!!

[Finals19]

Whith this i am faaaaaar from saying that european aviation is better than here, JAA regs are a nightmare!!!!
cplpilot....
You can say that again man! And therein lies one of the big barriers to not taking a Canadian ICAO licence to Europe and converting it. Even if you have the right to work, there is 650 hours minimum of certified ground study (if your TT is under 1500hrs, otherwise the 650hr requirement is waived) and 14 seperate ATPL written exams to take. Fail one subject more than twice and you have to re-sit the whole batch.
Then and only then may you start the actual flying training necessary to convert your licences - this consists of min 15hrs in a mix of recognised sim and m/e aircraft to validate your ME-IFR and necessary hours training and flight tests on complex SE to validate your CPL.
Total time required? Min approx 14 months, and all in cost not short of £10K sterling or C$22K.
Great eh? JAR is total over regulated money making BS IMHO!:*

[George Semel]

You just have a lot more aviation in the States, so the low time guys build time once you get some time logged, you go to one of the Commuter Airlines for a couple of years and then to the Majors. Thats the Civil side of things from the other side there is the Navy Marines and Airforce, they all have airplanes, even the Army has airplanes too, thou its Helicopters with the Army. By tradition before 1980 90% of the New Airline Hires would have come from either the Navy or Airforce. But as things changed guys and gals off the Civil street were able to get in. Now its more civil since they fly more on the Civil side. The exception would be the last four years or so. Wars make for lots of flying that you would not normally do while in the service. Sure they take 250 guys is Asia or Europe, chances are in a lot of Nations there is just one carrier and no general aviation to speak off. All you have to do is look at China, they are in a scramble to fill seats, and most of the Instructor Pilots are coming from out side of the Country. Huge growth, no general aviation base to draw from, and well you put 250 hour pilots in the right seat while you look all over the world for Pilots that can fill in for Captain. In America, you have Uncle making pilots, and Uncle likes to keep them for as long as possible, you have a general aviation sector were just about anybody can join the club if the want to, you have lots of jobs for pilots to build time at so why should an Airline look at a 250 hour pilot? They never had to and they never will at least not in the US.

[CanAV8R]

Converting to a JAR is a pain and a bit of $$$ but in the end you will be way ahead.

Get a JAA licence and a job flying a 737/757/767 etc. is better than a Dash at JAZZ. The money is easily double and no the cost of living in Europe is not twice that of Canada (especially TO). The arguement is weak.

[cplpilot]

I don't really know US, i though this was the canadian forum:confused:
I am just confused to sse the european reqs and the canadian (maybe also US). It seem to me that the market, in Canada is "using" young pilot for cheap, convenient, disposable,quite (safety), labor. I have good friend in europe flying 747, DC10, Learjet, 737 with few hundreds of hours and i don't see a difference in safety records between nord america and europe.
I don't see the sense to have a 300hour guy teaching how to fly an airplane (in europe most instructor are retired airline) and:
- don't pass any experience because he hase non
- build 1500+ hours of local time
- getting used to a system (general aviation) that is completely different from airlines, where eventually he will end up.
I just see thing in a different way i suppose....:(

[Glorified Donkey]

Some good posts here.

Insurance and supply and demand are bull**** and I'll tell you why.

Say you want to fly floats... insurance minimums are 200hrs on floats 500hrs total. You dont have the time, so you spent a year working on the docks and then you get to fly...wtf? since when does working on the docks count for flying time? Everyone is looking for instructors so they tell you comne build PIC time its important. Let me tell you all know Cessna time is worth *uck all There are still operators there that need pilots because of the movement and all these small companies with their ridiculous requirements are gonna feel it when they need pilots and noone wants to work for them. Ive seen Navajo requirements for F/Os that were 1000hr, 100Multi and 1800hr,500multi. My first job was on a Navajo and I had less than 300hrs. A navajo is not a very complicated airplane to fly.

As for Europeans... read the forums they are all whores. All they want to do is spend $40k on a type rating and whore themselves out. You can find them in the Asia forum, the Middle East forum. they might get into a jet for 1-2 years...then they are unemployed. Their training is also almost double what we pay here. They know the autopilot well, but Im sure if they had none they'd crash and die. Last Ive heard there are a couple trying to get into India and if they come here Im gonan boot them back to the UK cause thats where most of them come from. If you're not a Brit they dont want you flying in the UK yet they are like cockroaches with type ratings running around the world. Guys like that will never fly for a big reputable company only those cheesy little discount airlines.

[oldebloke]

Profibus,As you can see the topic raises quite a bit of rhetoric..The simple answer is that since WW2 there hasn't been a surplus of pilots in Europe,and it costs too much to follow ones dream.In 1970 the chief pilot Japan airlines queried an AirCanada guy"where do you get your pilots?the AC gent replied "we advertise on Friday ond on momday we open the doors" thereby depicting the fact that Canadians get their own licences on the offchance of a job..Europr has had to follow the other route of Airlines 'growing' their own.BEA,BOAC.Luft etc..thats why the british have their own training schemes like the Euor and Japan carriers in Arizona..Ergo the Carriers in Canada can hold out for the most experienced flight time individuals available.
At one time Air Canada took on some 200hr wonders from training colleges,and via the second officers,and Viscount F/O seat were assimilated into the ranks.Today the call is on trying to get a cross section of experienced guys/girls and looking at young people for company longevity.
The Top carriers don't employ training bonds as such-they don't pay muchfor the first 2 years..The middle/charter carriers hold new pilots ransom with a 'training' bond for same forst 2 years,although they do pay considerable better on starting.BUT the bond is in place to eleviate people jumping ship as soon as they were endorsed.(inthe startup of the UK training schools late 50/60's the British carriers had to implement the five years stay ,after early defections)..At the moment Canadian carriers can hold out for 3-4000 hr candidates,especially with Historical evidence of Airline Failures..:ok:

[UB6IB9]

glorified donkey,

you're a little out of line there buddy. i can count a handful of euro's i know off the top of my head who didn't pay for a type or didn't pay for line training. they got their CPL MIFR the same way as you and me. and they got lucky flying a jet or a turbo as their first job. you need to wake up and think outside of our little canadian sandbox. there are some places on this earth that treat newly minted CPL holder's as pro's.....not ramp rats!!!!!!!!!

[CanAV8R]

Donkey,
You can kiss my big white Canadian a:mad:
As a Canadian working in the UK I can say that as many of my old buds are struggling back home, I am doing well. The brits need all the help they can get right now and will welcome anyone with the right to work here a job, if qualified.
I have numerous large AC types on my licence which cost me the square root of 0. Get your facts straight mate.

[cplpilot]

At one time Air Canada took on some 200hr wonders from training colleges,and via the second officers,and Viscount F/O seat were assimilated into the ranks.Today the call is on trying to get a cross section of experienced guys/girls and looking at young people for company longevity.
The Top carriers don't employ training bonds as such-they don't pay muchfor the first 2 years..The middle/charter carriers hold new pilots ransom with a 'training' bond for same forst 2 years,although they do pay considerable better on starting.BUT the bond is in place to eleviate people jumping ship as soon as they were endorsed.(inthe startup of the UK training schools late 50/60's the British carriers had to implement the five years stay ,after early defections)..At the moment Canadian carriers can hold out for 3-4000 hr candidates,especially with Historical evidence of Airline Failures..:ok:
I understand your point, in Canada is difficult to find a job....
Why when you find one, you get paid like you are working at KFC?
Why other profession where is more easy to recruit people (CN, TTC, etc) don't have surplus and they start to pay righ at the start?
I think the answer is UNION....
plus TC have the sadistic pleasure of keep bad company with no money afloat (again this is my feeling).

[profibus]

thanks for the replies...

Let me see if I understand this,....so lets say that, if my UNCLE owned an airline flying, RJs or whatever, and I was commercially licensed and instrument rated with 250 hours, could he legally hire me in the Great White North or would airline insurance companies preclude him from doing so...? (if i understand this right, most of you seem to think not...?)

[cplpilot]

Hey!!! this is America, as long as you pay (maybe a bit more insurace) you can do whatever you want, i am sure!!;)

[UB6IB9]

ya that could happen. in the us you can get on an rj with 600 hrs. actually there's a cojoe out of yyz flying a lear 45 as fo. he was hired with 500 tt.

[spencer101]

To me a good solution to the poor pay in Canada is to have something like a trade union. Then inorder to have a valid license you will have to be a member of the union. Imagine the barganing power we pilots would have then when an employer starts to get cheap with us. Be it the pay issue or the bond issue I think things could be made alot better for us.

[hedges81]

[QUOTE=Nimbus5] Anyone who's flown both (jet and turboprop) knows the turboprop has a higher workload,

So have you flown a turboprop then nimbus? Again more absolute crap from this joker.

[northeast canuck]

Have been flying in the UK for the better part of the last decade.

The truth is, there is high demand for pilots here, and as long as you have a JAA ATPL (or even frozen CPL) and the right to live and work here, there are plenty of jobs to choose from.

In general, pay rates are much higher unless you are comparing with longtime AC captains, but no new AC joiners will ever see that payscale anyway.

It used to be that the UK was twice as expensive to live in as Canada but over the last few years that has changed dramatically. Unless you live in London, but I don't know how anyone can afford to live there!

Cost of housing is almost prohibitive for anyone coming here now, unfortunately. That is where the UK falls down in a big way. But day to day living is OK, prices look high because they already include the tax (unlike in Canada where it is added at the till). Same goes for restaurants, where the menu looks expensive but tax is already included.

Its all worth it though, if you want to get into a jet.