Eighteen Months of Hell!!!

[MaximumPete]

This posting is a cautionary tale about what happens when a totally ineffective Fleet Manager refuses to discipline a lady first officer for sexual harassment. I have spent the last ten out of sixteen months of sick prior to early retirement. My family and partner have been through hell.. .. .Some background information about the circumstances, the lady is question flew with me in late July/early August 2000. She refused to comply with the Operations Manual regarding the use of the shoulder harness, refused to comply with SOPs and broke the speed limit in the descent and on the SIDs on several occassions. She also insisted on using a clip board that had pictures of partially clad males in clear view. . .. .She was well below the standard expected of someone of her experience and I contacted the Training Manager in order to arrange for some extra training. She was of the opinion that Training Captains should not train on line flights but only on line checks.. .. .During late August/early Septeber 2000 she remarked to at least five line captains that she flew with, one of whom gave me statement, advising them that" confidence has gone as a result of me staring at her breasts instead of training her". I contacted the Fleet Manager and the rest is history and appears below.. .. .The lady in question later freely admitted in a meeting on the 19th January 2001 when the Fleet Manager, a Personnel Person and myself were present, that she had made up the entire story and that it was malicious, false and entirely without any foundation. NO action was taken against her.. .. .Due to Fleet manager's procrastination in September/October 2000 I started the formal grievance procedure based od on her alleged remarks. Even before a formal hearing I was advised by letter dated the 11th Dec 2000 " In respect of your reservations and potential refusal to fly with First Officer ******* on your return I do not see this to be an acceptable or workable option." I had gone sick with acute stress, anxiety and depression by this time so it was not a problem!. .. .Prior to the letter of the 11th Dec at a meeting with the Fleet Manager and the Personnel Person on the 23rd November 2000 I was advised by the latter that should I refuse to fly with the lady in question "they would have to consider letting me go". I was so shocked that I asked for this to be repeated. It was repeated verbatum.. .. .Around about this time another first officer, listening to the rumour machine, wrote to the local Magistrates Court where I sit and advised them that I had been suspended from work and was being investigated for sexual harassment, both of which were untrue. The Operations Director refused to take any action against this individual.. .. .I received aletter dated 15th February from the Fleet Manager advising me that they had decided to take no action against the lady, inspite of her admission. I was advised in this letter that the January meeting with the lady in question was " to enable you to initiate the re-building of a good working relationship with ****** and I expect this to be maintained in a consistent manner in the future". I was also advised in the letter that I didn,t have to fly with her for three months as a "cooling-off period".. .. .I had to visit the CAA psychiatrist before returning to work as they were concerned about the stress that I had suffered. At the end of the three month freeze I knew that we could be rostered together. I was concerned that she may try to make more allegations on a formal basis and be believed by the company as the easy way out. When I went to my AME in September 2001 for renewal I was told that I was under too much stress and that as long as the threat of dismissal was hanging over me I would not fly I took early retirement in February 2002.. .. .The level of harassment is assessed in law as perceived by the victim. All I wanted was an apology and a guarantee not to fly together. This was not an option. When I sugested a apology to the lady at the 19th Jan meeting she demanded an apology from me and stated that "I would do the same thing again if I threatened and considered it justified." Nice lady!!. .. .The strain on my family has been incredible. When you see your dear old mum of eighty breaking down in tears over this lot you'll know why I want to pass this message on.. .. .A BIG BIG Thank you to all my colleagues for seeing me through a very difficult time. I would not have made it without you. I've given up the job I love but at least I have my health, sanity. .and support of a lot of very good people.. .. .Safe flying. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[flyer1950]

Dear MP, I was so sad...but not too surprised.. to learn of your shocking treatment. An ex F27 737 and Jet Ranger capt. I was diagnosed with MS in 1997 and subsequently received the most appalling treatment at the hands of my employer. May I be of any help in this matter... by way of free legal advice perhaps? You may email me at [email protected] if you wish. In the meantime every good wish to you... there IS a life beyond Vref! Cheers.

[MaximumPete]

Many thanks for those kind words of support.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[gurnzee]

MP. .although not to the same extent, I can certainly relate to the stress caused by inefficient/ diabolical fleet/ops management. Without getting too heavily involved, I was subject to undue pressure from the top over an 'incident' whereby the top accused me of making incorrect decisions, although they could not find any contraventions to the ops manual, and would have had me fly an a/c full of pax in extremely bad weather with a potentially engine failure inducing defect from a diversion airfield back to base. Even after the 'hearing' was complete, I was cornered several times to rub it in. Fortunately the source of this stress is soon to cease, but the memory lives on. I hope for your sake that things get back to normal soonest.

[twistedenginestarter]

Maximum. .. .I'm not going to be today's most popular person for saying this but what you have outlined does not seem to me to justify calling your Fleet Manager totally ineffective. The whole thing seems to have got massively out-of-hand but you have got your closure. Is it a good thing to start opening this out too publicly?. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 15:41: Message edited by: twistedenginestarter ]</small>

[MaximumPete]

No Names but he has since been "moved sideways".. .What's wrong with a public airing. If you had been there you may well have the same views a myself. . .. .Losing your medical certificate through no fault of your own isn't much fun when you are basically "fit". .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Exclusive Mandate]

Totally as an outsider and knowing this forum as I do....after a public airing like this, I can't help but feel you are desperate for further self analysis.. .. .Turn over a new leaf....quickly!

[MaximumPete]

Totally as a retired person I'm living life to the full and enjoying every minute of it. I can really recommend it!. .. ."Laugh and you laugh together, cry and you cry alone".. .. .Life's too short to dwell on events but I don't want any of my mates shafted.. .. .Happily Retired MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 16:58: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]</small>

[greatorex]

MP,. .. .That is a chilling story, one can't even begin to imagine the dreadful time that you and your family must have gone through.. .. .Enjoy your retirement - you certainly deserve it.. .. .Best wishes,. .JG

[TowerDog]

Chilling story indeed.. .Is there more to this than you have laid on the table??. .. .It seems fairly obvious that the girl should have been terminated when testifying to the fact she laying.. .Instead she get promoted to captain...?. .. .Does not ring a bell.. .. .(This TowerDog has had 17 flying jobs and seen my share of in-fighting and cockpit conflicts, etc but the outcome is usually reversed.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[Life of TrollyDollyLover]

As the story goes -. ."was I married to her once?". .. .I wish you the best of luck in the future. I just hope that in the future there is no more of this reverse sexual discrimination. I am afraid to say that many weak willed people are frightened to get question a woman on her version of events and all too often the full story is not told.. .. .This may take a long time to change, every day it gets a little bit closer.. .. .the best of luck sir.

[Mad Mitch]

If its all over as you say and there are no possible legal arguments, then name and shame the "cow" or at least the airline. . .It could help save the rest of us ending up with careers in tatters if we're ever unfortunate to come across her.. .Good luck and continued good health in your retirement.

[MaximumPete]

This lady was trouble from day one. . .. .During the simulator course she complained that she had not been paid. It transpired that she had not told the company where to send the money. Training Captains expressed doubts about her suitability at the simulator stage but were over-ruled by the training manager, acting on instructions from the fleet manager perhaps??. .. .She had more line training during the initial conversion than any otherpilot. I cannot remember the exact number but it was of the order of 80 to 90 sectors. When she came to her final line check with me she still needed more training and I refered her to the Training Manager who checked her out. She was furious at the time and threatened to get her own back one day. Guess what??? . .. .MP

[MaximumPete]

Mad Mitch. .. .E-mail for that one!. .. .MP

[autothrottle]

I agree with you MP,. .. .I hope your retirement is stress free!. .. .Cheers. .. .autothrottle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[MaximumPete]

To keep the heat of the other two lady pilots,who are good friends of ours, the Lady is no longer based in the Midlands.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Son Of Piltdown]

MP that is a truly appaling ordeal and my sympathies go out to you and your family. All the best for a long and happy retirement following your distinguished career.. .. .Having some insight into your managements culture it doesn't surprise me. These people have never seen daylight except between each others ears.. .. .Gurnzee's experience is a common one too.. .. .I think it works like this. The 'Old Man' gets annoyed by a delay which incurs a cost. He then tells the Ops Director to 'have the pilot in for a word'. This low level bullying is delegated to the Fleet Manager who picks his moment. A suggestion is made that their are better ways of handling operational situations that will avoid further interviews . . .. .. .It goes on all the time but rarely gets talked about for obvious reasons.. .. .Bad cultures start at the top in any organisation. The issue here is that trying to interfere with resposibilities of the ATPL is one of safety.. .. .You are best off out of it basically.

[PaulDeGearup]

MP,. .. .A man of your calibre should never have been treated this way.. .You trained me and taught me a great deal.. .Respect.. .J

[411A]

Should have been an easy decision for management...if she was employed under an employment contract, the language of which mentions...."good moral character shall be maintained...", then she could have been dismissed for cause, because she admitted lying.. .Perhaps an attorney here could comment...would be interesting.. .Another thought...with the FAA license, "good moral character..."(ATPL) must be maintained, otherwise the FAA has in the past REVOKED a pilots' license for lying...I wonder if the UKCAA has similar provisions.. .Revenge....and why not? Seems reasonable to me.. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 22:01: Message edited by: 411A ]</small>

[Lima Xray]

MaximumPete. .. .Knowing only from what I read here on pprune you have more then my sympathy. The good (read bad) old attitude of the stiff upper lip is long overdue. Any greavances should be able to be voiced to my humble opinion. An other said story involving the influence of an incompetent manager in a position willing or unwilling scruwing up. No good some people sitting on the fence airing their status of I’m alright jack! . .. .Enjoy your live. . .. .« I’m 49 percent bitch, 51 percent sweetheart don’t push me » hope that helps.. .. .Apologies are waiting . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[SkyGuy]

Is this Britannia by any chance.

[basil fawlty]

MP, (unfortunate abbreviation!). .99% of my collegues, and no doubt yours, are/were excellent collegues, but theres always one isn't there?. .In the "good old days" such people, be they misfits, unsafe, or whatever, were eventually "failed" on their six monthly check. It seems that in todays environment airline management are thinking more about losing the considerable investment they have made in a particular pilots training than anything else. Very sad. It is another indicator of the fact that flying is no longer the "gentlemans" profession that it once was. . .All the best for your retirement BTW!

[Aviatrix69]

MP,. .impossible, how the story got out of hand!. .I feel really embarassed, becaus a woman's action like the one you describe does not really help the co-ed flying.. .. .Not all women are equal, I hope you have not lost trust in us.. .. .Enjoy as much as you dare!. .Cheers

[MissChief]

You've done your bit with your last airline, MP.. .. .Enjoy retirement, and submit your dreadful account of these experiences to a place where it may be acted upon. Then relax.... .. .Good luck.

[spancan]

This wouldn't be Ryanairs old chief pilots daughter girlie by any chance??

[Ellion]

Huh,. .. .Guys and gals we earn the bigger dollars because we know right from wrong. You either know how to operate the aircraft in question or you don't. You know the law or you don't. If the answer is you Don't know you should not be the Captain. If you are the Captain and someone is causing you so much distress maybe YOU are doing it wrong and it is time to back out of it gracefully.. . A Captain should take this type of treatment in his/her stride deal with it and still command a safe and efficiant operation, regardless of how difficult the day was for the individual to achieve it. ---- that is why you where promoted to the position of Captain! nothing to do with how long you'd been in the industry.

[pigboat]

Happy retirement, MP. While it is regrettable to end a career under such a circumstance, you have the satisfaction of knowing you handled a trying situation with grace and dignity. Bravo.

[jester42]

Pigboat, nicely said!. .. .Ellion, what is your post doing here? What happened was AFTER the tech log had been signed in.. .. .Uncle Pete, know the story but never new this............. .. . "When she came to her final line check with me she still needed more training and I refered her to the Training Manager who checked her out. She was furious at the time and threatened to get her own back one day. Guess what???". .. .You were spot on. She will chop the power at 50' at vma+5kts on the F100 and THUMP it in. Say anything at choxs on and the waterworks flow. Will not accept constructive criticsm. Still needs more training!. .. .Jet A1 smells crap in the morning, ENJOY the smell of bacon and coffee in the morning Pete!

[Polar_stereographic]

MP,. .. .Enjoy the retirement, and I feel for you with what you've had to enfdure for such long time.. .. .I know nothing of this story other that what I've read here, but one thing stands out unanswered (and perhaps I need to re read your original post more carefully if it's there), but why did they keep her on?. .. .PS

[A and C]

In what other job are you locked into a small dark room with another person for hours on end ?.. .. .This sort of thing is bound to happen sooner or later and requires fast and WISE managment action.. .As most of the pilot managment in the UK are ex-RAF and having left the service some time ago they are not best trained to deal with problems with females ,add to this a large heap of political correctness from the HR department and inactivity may sound like an atractive option.. .. .As we can see from MP,s problems this is not an option , fortunatly all of the female pilots i know hate anyone that plays the "girlie" card and are well up to the job and it is now time for some of the more traditional airline managements to get up to speed.

[Foyl]

Darn right A and C, the last thing any woman pilot who has worked hard to make it in aviation needs someone who perpetuates the myth that women pilots depend more on sexual equality legislation than ability. . .. .But the funny thing is that I was reading this (hope you have a great retirement MP despite the circumstances) and couldn't help thinking that it kinda looks like MP himself has been a victim of sexual discrimination (on top of anything else). I mean how fast would they have acted if it had been the other way around?. .. .Just a thought...

[Evanelpus]

Hi MP. .. .Sorry to read this... I have a question to raise here.. .. .What would have happened if the roles were reversed? Do you think you would have been treated any differently if she had taken the same course of action against you?. .. .From personal experience I have found that the 'PC' brigade nearly always come down in favour of the female. Any comments PPruNers?

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

MP,. .. .Is it correct that the lady in question had used the same "modus operandi" twice previously ?. .. .If so were the company aware? Were adequate measures in place to ensure the "safety" of male colleagues ?

[twistedenginestarter]

A staggering amount of support for you Pete. Nevertheless someone has to act for the defence. So here goes.. .. .Your argument is 'sexual harrassment' against you. Your story only mentions the following:. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> She also insisted on using a clip board that had pictures of partially clad males in clear view. . .. .she remarked to at least five line captains that she flew with,... " confidence has gone as a result of me staring at her breasts instead of training her". Then ... admitted... she had made up the entire story and that it was malicious, false and entirely without any foundation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Apart from the obvious advice not to use without any foundation in a story about breasts, I'm struggling to see what prompted such a severe response from you especially as it very sadly led you to leave flying.. .. .In retrospect do you wish you had played your cards differently?

[GlamGran]

Hellow everyone,. .. .I'm Mrs Pete,. .. .Just a few words while he's painting the stairs and I can get on line.. .. .Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement. I didn't realise just how many friend Pete had until this unfortunate incident took place.. .. .God Bless you all.. .. .GG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[RAGBAG]

A & C. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">As most of the pilot managment in the UK are ex-RAF and having left the service some time ago they are not best trained to deal with problems with females ,add to this a large heap of political correctness from the HR department and inactivity may sound like an atractive option.. . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">In this case the management concerned were all "Warm and Fuzzy" civilians, not an uncouth "soldier" to be seen. Had there been any ex-service managers involved I don't think they would have made the basic procedural errors which seem to have occurred. Remember that all servicemen have a basic grounding in disciplinary systems and should understand the vital importance of correct procedure. Anyway I think an ex-service manager would have known exactly what to do about a matter of integrity, for that is the root of the matter.. .. .RAGBAG. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 13:03: Message edited by: RAGBAG ]</small>

[SkyGuy]

I don't want names i just want to know which airline this happened in....

[Polar_stereographic]

Any chance of an answer to my question too?

[MaximumPete]

Absolutely no chance!. .. .MP

[Polar_stereographic]

Oh, go on, or I might be forced to ask GlamGran

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Polar S - if you check the posts you may get some clues:. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">To keep the heat of the other two lady pilots,who are good friends of ours, the Lady is no longer based in the Midlands </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">and Hoskins says. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> She will chop the power at 50' at vma+5kts on the F100 and THUMP it in. Say anything at choxs on and the waterworks flow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Any offers?

[fernytickles]

GlamGran, and MP too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .This whole thing must have been hellish for both of you. I am very sorry that anyone should be put thru' such a nasty situation.. .. .I love your profile - flying, drinking and shopping - what more could a body ask for? Sounds like my idea of heaven!

[thegirth]

I think Justin's detective work points you to bmi!

[Poke Guy]

Sorry for a stupid question - who flies the F100 in the UK?

[AeroBoero]

PG ; There are two (at least that I know of) companies that flies the F100 in UK...both of them have blue as their main colorscheme (until recently that is..).. .. .MP - You know what makes me think about your tale? Today it was you. Who will it be tomorrow and will this ever become a trend or will it be an exception? I know that it is simply a fact of life (and human nature) that there will be always that "pain in the @*s" everywhere at any given time...99% are good people, 1% bad..but that 1% seems always more present and in your case was the ultimate "problem".. .. .Don't bother anymore..turn the page (easy for me to say you may think - but...). Is no good to keep revolving that sentiment, you will be the only one affected. Life is short and so enjoy it every moment - specially now that you have, even if unwanted, more time to you and your family. . .. .Sincerely. .. .AB. .. .PS ; "What goes around , comes around"

[paco]

I hope you are.. .. .Phil

[ironbutt57]

Maybe if more occurrences like this were made public, then something could be done about them...too public?...don't think so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[Nubboy]

Just to put my two pennorth in.. .. .I've flown wwith Pete on the line several times and always learned something. the only time I've been in the sim was just after my command course and was required to stoke for an FO who had been off sick for six months and need refresher training plus LPC/OPC etc. Although I was not under test, the FO had obviously done a lot of reading before hand and everything went really well apart from one excercise. As soon as it was obviously going pear shaped, off came the motion and we stopped for a think, and then had another go. Everything I saw during those two days was geared towards the requirements of the student and was tailored to him as an individual rather than an exercise in ticking boxes. The whole affair was very professional and extrememly good fun as well. Again I learnt a lot.. .MP has a wealth of experience to pass on and a good manner in which to do it. However if you have failed failed to prepare adequately then (in the sim) he will let you continue until your shortcomings are obvious even to yourself. It then depends if you have the strength of character to learn from his guidance, or do you blame everyone else? Although I have never flown with the lady in question, words to the wise abound in the crewroom for when you do.. .Pete will be sorely missed, enjoy your new career.

[GlueBall]

At my airline we have a union and we also have a professional standards committee to check and to contain this sort of "runaway train" scenario.. .. .Before company management gets involved, our Professional Standards Committee, made up of rank and file elected crewmembers, gets first crack at resolving personality and flight standards issues.. .. .In this business there are no desperate situations, only desperate people.

[Budvar]

Nubboy my sentiments exactly, I have flown and been trained by MP a number of times and always found him to be very fair, with a wealth of knowledge, who's whole approach was to make you a safer and better operator. I find it amazing that one persons extremely stupid and juvenile comments, aimed purely at getting her own back because of her own below standard performances can have had the effect which they did. Management should've been down on her like a ton bricks, but however let situation get so far out of hand it ruined a good man's(30+ yrs of service) working life. . .Stupid comments like the ones she made could so easily wreck not just a persons career but also thier marriage/relationship.. .. .All the best Pete enjoy retirement, you will be sorely missed!!!

[MaximumPete]

Nubboy and Budvar,. .. .Many thanks for your kind comments. I miss the simulator training and the sessions in the bar afterwards.. .. .Keep in touch . .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[NorthernSky]

Maximum Pete,. .. .I have no idea who you are, (though a shrewd idea as to which airline and where), but having read the thread, would like to add my thoughts...... .. .I am a professional pilot much as you are (or were). Your story (and I don't doubt it for a moment - it pales into insignificance compared with others I have heard) leaves me cold.. .. .My concern is with the state of our profession.. .. .Managers and regulators alike are responsible for driving our standards down, whether they are standards of qualification, training, technical knowledge, or conduct. It sounds as though your nemesis has lower standards than you, in many if not all of these respects.. .. .Might I take this opportunity to say, to fellow professionals who read this forum, that it is not too late to 'stop the rot' - yet. We must stand firm for what we believe in. Do you, Pete, imagine that your story could have unfolded in BA in the 60s? No, of course not. The 'lady' concerned would have been thrown out on her backside for having the temerity to accuse. I do not suggest that this would have been right either - the acceptable path lies between this and that which you have been forced to tread.. .. .We must, if we believe that we are professionals, stop putting up with this type of rubbish from our 'managers'. I cannot stress the point strongly enough.. .. .If we do not do this, we can expect the present changes to our lives - more work, less pay, fewer and lower standards, more interference, and a down-skilling of our profession - to continue.. .. .I am lucky enough to be an able communicator, and take the opportunity to communicate in all sorts of forums, as and when I can. I often find this difficult, as it can grind against the 'corporate philosophy' which my position dictates I must support. I have met with some success of late. However, I often feel mine is a lone voice.. .. .You fell on your sword, Pete, and I hope you don't let this episode cloud your reminiscences. Enjoy your retirement. You have earned it.. .. .Colleagues, stand with me.. .. .Stop the rot.. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 09:06: Message edited by: NorthernSky ]</small>

[MaximumPete]

NorthernSky,. .. .I think you hit the nail on the head!. .. .There is a saying which I think is relevant in and out of aviation:. .. ."A good manager anticipates". .. .Not much else I can say really. .. .VERY Happily Retired MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Wig Wag]

Maximum Pete's moral courage in posting his experience on PPRUNE is commendable. I thoroughly agree with Northern Sky; the management rot has got to stop.. .. .In my time in the industry I worked for several airlines and ended up with a very jaundiced view of pilot management. A rare few (the really really bright ones) were outstanding and bless their souls. The majority were just protecting their own positions and you had to wonder how they came by the post. It seemed to me that they invariably came up via the training route having rubbed shoulders with other managers. Now, pilots are managers in their own right BUT line management is an altogether different role and you will suceed if you are naturally talanted OR properly trained.. .. .I had some thoroughly unpleasant (although seemingly diplomatic) encounters with Fleet Pilots. They wanted punctuality and I wanted defects rectified before take off. I recall asking for clarification in writing in one case (BALPA screened the letter first) and that got them off my back, However, a few months later I had a really odd SIM Check (which I passed) and it was clear to me that they were not going to let matters pass. I left on my own terms for pastures new and never looked back.. .. .How do we raise the standard of pilot management?. .The only way forward that I can see is proper training for the job which, as yet does not exist.. .. .I wonder if Cranfield could be persuaded to run short courses for pilot managers. say two months covering the basic stuff like employment law, safety, aviation medicine and some finance.. .. .What are your thoughts gentleman?

[MaximumPete]

Wig Wag.. .. .There are some excellent courses in and outside the aviation industry. . .. .Unfortunately there is always one stumbling block: MONEY. .. .In the ideal world all pilots would attend a full-blown management course as part of their induction training when they join an airline. Perhaps someone with a service background can confirm that officers/pilots are trained in management skills very early on in their careers? This does not appear, at least from my own personal experiences, to happen in the civilian aviation world.. .. .I think we are getting there at the Grass-Root level with the CRM training at the initial training stage when joining the airline and more importantly during recuurrency training when we are getting a "feel" for the job. However very little appears to be done to have a formal selection procedure for managers. Maybe a weekend of Chay Blythe or something similar could be on the cards. Walking on red hot coals could be made part of the curriculum, only joking!. .. .All the best everyone. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Wig Wag]

&gt;&gt;there is always one stumbling block: MONEY&lt;&lt;. .. .I know!. .. .Pilots would like their management to facilitate them in operational matters and careers and the airlines want managers to control cost. Hence 'soft' middle management who invariably handle staff badly. This only becomes a cost issue when there is an appreciable pilot turnover.. .Managers get replaced by more of the same. There are always more gullible types waiting in the wings!. .. .Its a real headache for line pilots. I don't know what to suggest further.

[NorthernSky]

In most areas, there are minimum standards of training laid down by the regulator, this is certainly true for pilots, trainers, examiners, etc, who all have a part to play in the day-to-day operation of the aircraft.. .. .Those with strategic responsibilty for the airline's operations and standards are not required to undergo any formal training or checking, and need no particular qualifications.. .. .Some airlines do devote time and money to trainig their management. This may do little more than to put them at a commercial disadvantage.. .. .I would propose a requirement for the licensing of airline management staff, with post-holders required to have passed an approved course in airline management, the syllabus to include the regulatory requirement, a seemless knowledge of JAR, state-specific matters such as FTLs, and so on, plus a course of study of hu8man factors issues such as dealing with disciplinary and grievance procedures.. .. .There would need to be a 'buddy' system of career development, with a possible candidate shadowing a qualified post-holder during their study and qualification, the process being overseen by 'Airline Management Inspectors' - similar to FOIs, and with a responsibilty for seeing that the training was undertaken properly and the candidate's progress was satisfactory.. .. .The final step, before a candidate was allowed to hold a post, would be a board interview with similar aims to the 'witnessing' requirement in training.. .. .This, of course, is rather more 'blue sky' than NorthernSky'. Anyone agree with it, or have better or other ideas? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[SARAH COLES]

With reference to the pilot with the scantily clad men on her clipboard and the circuit breakers too sensitive to wear a shoulder harness -- she certainly isn't a 'lady' pilot.. .. .I'm so sorry you went through this experience. I have been flying now for 18 years, more on than off, and started at a time when there were hardly any lady pilots;I have the honour to have been the first one in the U.A.E.,for instance. Now I'm in Botswana, due to move to contract work soon.. .. .Honestly and truly, in ALL that time, I have not had one experience where I have felt prejudiced against or harrased in any way -- quite the contrary, and the feeling of camaraderie is the most precious part of my career. All this is a bit soppy I suppose but I want you to know that people like me are grateful to alot of 'old school' guys who let us in with a smile.. .. .What did they used to call it before it was the 'box office' ? !

[MaximumPete]

NorthernSky,. .. .I entirely agree with your suggestions. . .. .If there had been a manager in place who could actually manage this sorry state affairs could have been sorted out in about an hour, if that.. .. .Unfortunately the "luddite" mentality persists in certain quarters and this could happen again within my ex-airline.. .. .I'm not knocking managers. There is one very able competent pilot manager, whose name I cannot mention, but he is denied the time and the tools to carry out the job to his satisfaction.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[slj]

Budvar asked why management allowed this to develop. A cynical answer would be cost. If the female pilot is anything like the description then she would be hitting them with a sex discrimination writ if they had the balls to stand up to her. This of course could lead to unlimited damages.. .. .Add this to the pathetic standard of people management in all areas of industry and you can begin to see why a good guy such as MP was an easier target that the female pilot.. .. .The message from this is that whilst most female pilots are perfectly able to work with male colleagues you will always have the one who can suddenly bring you face to face with the scenario faced by MP. It is a doomsday scenario that can happen to any of you, at any time.. .. .MP has shown morale courage to bring this shaby, disgraceful and incompetently handled incident to general attention.

[ShotOne]

This thread emphasises the fact that if you happen to be male, your chances of getting a fair hearing in any sexual harassent case are slim. There are cabin crew who have openly bragged that they would like to "earn" a couple of grand in damages if they got the chance. Even if little or no evidence is presented you are still in trouble. Sadly, the only answer seems to be to get your lawyers in early if you are ever in this unfortunate position.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Could we have a comment on Contacted,,,,,,'s assertion that this is distasteful for exposure in a public forum. Surely openness and transparency should be applauded !. .. .Or is this symptomatic of New Labour's approach to the public airing of sleaze; it's fine if it pertains to your opponents but if it relates to the party ?????????????????????????????. . . . <small>[ 10 March 2002, 17:26: Message edited by: Justin Cyder-Belvoir ]</small>

[MaximumPete]

I see from Contact's profile that he flies the 777 and is based in the UK. No doubt his managers are properly trained.. .. .It would therefore be a safe to assume that his employers would not place him in the unenviable position that I found myself. . .. .Thank goodness for early retirement!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Dirty Harry]

MP,. .. .Firstly, my deepest sympathy to you and your family.. .. .Sadly, this sort of occurrence is becoming all too common. I agree with the majority here though, name the b******s. I myself have been a victim of an in justice in the past, and my family suffered too, so I certainly understand how you feel.. .. .MP just remember, every dog has his day !. .. .Enjoy your well earned retirement.

[skip.rat]

Have only ppruned for about 3 months,and this is my first posting;. .I can only echo the comments made by those who have flown/sim'med with pete:-Best of luck in your retirement.. .Judging by the "qualities" exhibited by this f/o,it makes me concerned for the standard of future recruitment.I'm hoping that this one was an isolated case that slipped through the net.sounds like the typical arrogant type that starts along a career path thinking they have nothing to learn,while turning their nose up at comments/suggestions made by those that REALLY have the experience.(I'm not a trainer,by the way-I just remember being in that position quite a few years ago,and feel that I have benefitted immensely from such training). .. .As for management quality;-. . . .For SOME depts.-see above para!. .Anyway,with all the fleet changes afoot I guess I could find myself sitting next to her-not a nice thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Best wishes,Pete. . -from where the M1 only goes north

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

To MP and Mrs Pete. .. .A truly dreadful situation and like everyone else here I wish you every success in your retirement. You have clearly generated great respect from many of your colleagues, and I would be honoured if when I retire people felt the same about me.. .. .There is a saying that 'what goes around comes around' and I think there is an element of truth in it. Time will tell in this case. . .. .One of the difficulties of this situation is that some really good women pilots can be tarred with the same brush as the lady you have described. We have some great ones in our company who are highly respected by managers and peers alike. . .. .When I was in the RAF some years ago there was a great desire to get the first women selected for aircrew training through to the front line at any cost. Consequently, some very poor specimens got through training who, if they had been male, would never have made it in a million years. The view then prevailed for some time that all women in aviation were a joke. Eventually some degree of sanity prevailed and proper equality was applied. As the training system started to pass and fail women on demonstrated ability just like their male counterparts, the attitude to the women who got through changed significantly. Everyone recognised that they were there on ability and nothing else. There are lessons from that painful period of RAF history for everyone in aviation. It is simply counterproductive to artificially enhance the prospects of minorities (women, blacks, whoever) in top jobs when their abilities clearly do not justify their employment. Everyone can see through it, and they all end up despising the complete lack of integrity associated with such practices, however well intended. The genuine desire to bring equality ends up producing the very resentment the powers-at-be were trying to eradicate. Like I said at the beginning, there are so many fantastic women pilots about, and any manager who hangs onto a duff one because of their sex is actually doing untold damage to the cause of equality.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Pete:. .. .It is obvious from all the responses that you have gained something money can never buy, the support and respect of your colleauges and your wife.. .. .Now in my opinion for the good of all our female colleauges who are unfairly tarred by this one person I would suggest that there are many out there who can name her, I think that would be the proper thing to do.. .. ................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[G.Khan]

Pete - Does your ex company have any Lady trainers? One way to avoid a discrimination case.. .. .Best of luck in your retirement.

[broadreach]

MP,. .. .Don't know you and your original post immediatly prompted an "uh oh, two sides to this one". Obviously not the case, to judge from the postings of those acquainted with you. . .. .And, again judging from those same postings, you've still got plenty of mileage left in you plus experience and that enviable skill in imparting that experience to others. "Retirement" sounds a bit premature!

[Bob Hawke]

Dirty Harry, I am sorry, but I couldn't resist this, but when you said every dog has his day, did you not mean something else?. .. .Just a thought.. .. .MP, I take my hat off to you, and it can plainly be seen you are a man of integrity, and it shows with the amount of support you have recieved.. .I have also meet with this type and thank God, in my case her (in)sanity prevailed and she left the company. My experience with management was similiar, luke warm to say the the least.. .. .I feel more for those that follow you, and will have to go through the same experience no doubt, but with more disasterious consequences. I hope you have given enough people the "heads up" for this not to eventuate.. .. .As for the woman concerned, I sincerely hope she reads and knows of this thread and takes kind councel from it, and applies the lesson that she needs to learn. We are all the same professionally and by resorting to gender bias is totally dispicable.

[Iso]

Well said.. . . . <small>[ 11 March 2002, 03:05: Message edited by: Iso ]</small>

[MaximumPete]

G.Khan,. .. .We had three lady pilots on the fleet. Two are very good friends of mine and I have the highest regard for their abilities and the manner in which they conduct themselves. One is changing ing fleets as I write and unfortunately the second is still under threat of redundancy. . .. .Yes, there is a lady trainer on another fleet. I have flown with her when she was cabin crew and again when she was first officer. Again I have the highest regard for her. She changed fleets when she was promoted to captain and then a training captain.I hear from both the training department and from the pilots who have been fortunate enough to be trained by her that she is of the highest calibre.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[P.Pilcher]

Well, as most others have had their say on this one then I'll add my bit: I don'tknow Maximum Pete myself, which type of A/C he trains on or which airline he worked for. However it is totally obvious from what many others have said he is the sort of total professional who has probably forgotten more about flying than I have ever learned. I have met several such in my career and to draw knowledge, experience and wisdom from them is a privelege. But what of the young lady? Well, in view of the ineptness of the management who let this situation arise in the first place, I have no doubt that they will be fooled by her techniques into letting her have her command in due course. I just hope that I am not a passenger on the aircraft she commands in the short time she is allowed to command it. Or will all the other F/O's, trained by M.P. to the highest standards, haul her out of trouble time and time again? If this happens, she may eventually be able to claim several hundred hours IN COMMAND of a fast passenger jet. Ouch.. .. .Enjoy your retirement M.P.

[Ballymoss]

Mrs P,. .. .Make the best use of him around the house while you can... You can't keep a good man down!

[MVE]

Mr and Mrs Pete,. .The only thing worse than discrimination is positive discrimination!. .Best wishes for your retirement and remember the big wheel turns, she'll get her's!. .Regards Rodders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Arkroyal]

Hi, Pete.. .. .As another of your trainees, I'd like to add my best wishes for your retirement. Is it true that only one manager managed to phone to say goodbye? And that that was only to ensure you returned all kit?. .. .I haven't flown with this female , but so many horror stories mean that some must be true. If ever a job should be won by ability, ours is it. Positive discrimination in any form is a creeping cancer of the PC age, and must be stopped.

[OldFogey]

Is the "lady" going to come out of the closet and post a reply?. .. .WE know who you are "Darling"!!!

[MaximumPete]

Ark,. .. .I had a half hour interview with my Chief Pilot as part of the termination procedure. I think that's what they call it.. .. .I did have a letter from LL but nothing from anyone else and don't expect to after this little lot.. .. .It will be "head in the sand" time again!. .. .By the way I still owe you a beer.. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[beaver eager]

MP,. .. .Judging by the huge number of unsolicited recommentations you have received, you are either a hugely respected individual deserving of immense status within our industry or a mate of The Guvnor, inventing alternative usernames in support of your own arguments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> I am convinced of the former as you have managed to keep your comments adult and dignified throughout this entire thread.. .. .My sympathies go to you and your family, It frequently worries me that a similar occasion could occur in my own career. I just cling to the old adage that "What Goes Around, Comes Around". Such Karma is rarely instant (despite what John Lennon wrote) but those who profit from misdeeds usually suffer a similar fate themselves... Eventually.. .. .Best of luck in your retirement and give yourself a pat on the back for being the kind of trainer who has bestowed upon our industry a legacy of many satisfied customers. No-one can take that away!

[Wig Wag]

Could not airline pilots rightly be entitled to some form of ombudsman to assist in cases like this?. .. .This sort of ghastly nightmare probably happens an awful lot more than we ever hear of. If a situation becomes unresolved just where do pilots turn to for help? . .. .The CAA can suspend/revoke a licence in extremis. They can also suspend you on medical grounds for stress. But what happens when the airline is CAUSING that stress through bad working practices? How do you prove that?. .. .A pilot could blow the whole story to the press and blow his/her career with it. BALPA do some very good work behind the scenes; there is always the option applying legal pressure to a situation.. .. .If an external arbitrator could come into play it might just force airlines to THINK before they treat a LICENCED professional badly.. .. .At any rate, in an increasingly cost conscious industry, there is going to be a lot more of this sort of of malpractice.. .. .Post accident the fare paying public would be aghast to learn that the crew had been at such odds with each other. Imagine the wording of the subsequent AAIB report if they learnt that the airline had applied such pressure for them to fly together . . .

[fantom]

just put her my way for an LPC...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .best wishes to you.

[gengis]

I know this doesn't address the root cause of the problem, but how about nobody giving any flying to this lady? Mean as it sounds, this is not the intention; as it would appear from MP's early comments that this lady's performance was below expectation - this being the case just keeping her on PNF duties might at give you one less problem to deal with - unacceptable flight path.. .. .In the broader picture though, I agree with all that this lady is not a competent member of the flight crew.. .. .As more and more women are set to come in, the industry had better set some clear lines now. Maybe IFALPA can take this up?

[beaver eager]

An Airline has a duty of care to its passengers.. .. .If, following an accident, it were subsequently proved that pilots between whom a serious difficulty existed, were forced to work with each other against their better judgement, the Company could be held negligible in law.. .. .The trouble is, Companies see it as the thin end of the wedge. If they allow people with serious issues not to fly together, then they fear it will quickly degenerate into everyone just avoiding those with whom they are not 'best buddies'. Another expmple of management not affording us the professional respect that most of us deserve. Anyway, they perceive the risk of a CRM related 'incident' as less damaging than the risk of their rostering system descending into chaos!. .. .Lord 'elp us!

[PaulDeGearup]

Ok Pete a rundown on RAF training in management for pilots. It isnt meant to be absolutely accurate to the last detail but will give you an idea of what goes on. Anyone else care to comment?. .. .Basic management training starts during the initial Officer training course; this involves the study of the theory behind leadreship and the practical application of leadership techniques. Routine administration and office practice is also covered quite extensively during this phase as is the application of the law in employment situations which pertain specifically to the RAF. The use of the witten word, be it a simple memo through to the reporting of meetings is also studied.. .. .After graduation the pilot will then enter professional training; this can last up to 3 years. During this time he / she will undergo further training in the study of and application of leadership techniques, both in the field ( literally) and also in a less physically demanding environment. There are opportunities to examine and study the efficacy of a variety of well known historical figures leadership ( management) techniques and of course many opportunities to experience at first hand the way other NATO Air Forces work.. .. .During this phase of their education, the exposure to management responsibility may be limited to the control of a small budget.. .. .As a first tourist, the pilot would normally be left unecumbered by secondary duties until they had become combat ready and had consolidated their place on a Squadron. Again, a limited budgetary responsibility may be the first secondary duty the new pilot would pick up. Thias could range from running the Squadron fund to having to control the allowances for a detachment; the Squadron fund, bear in mind, involves accounting for your colleagues contributions, amongst other things, and requires absolute integrity. The first detachment I was involved in was for 3 months and we took 30% of the Sqn personnel; the amount of money we had to deal with ran in to 6 figures each week ! I also had responsibility thrust upon me as Entertainments Officer; pretty tricky when you are 1200 miles from nowhere and over 100 personnel are relying on you. It does encourage planning and the ability to think on your feet and be flexible !. .. .The key to this is not the task you are " lumbered" with but the processes you have to undergo to achieve success. Note that I mention an ability to plan and also to think on ones feet and be adaptable. You could add to this of course the need to take account of inividual opinion and to balance all of this within a budget. Additionally, undertaking such seemingly trivial tasks as being responsible for the entertainments programme encourages you to listen to the views and opinions expressed by others and take, where necessary, a route which satisfies as many individual needs as possible. It also facilitates good communication skills as you have to explain your decision, and often why you have not actioned someone's particular request, with clarity and impartiality.. .. .At the end of the first tour of duty, a tour is typically 2.5 to 3 years, the pilot may now be responsible for a junior ranks accomodation facility. This would introduce the officer, amongst other things, to dealing with civilian contractors and the civil servants who form the " Works and Bricks" dept. You should note that throughout the first tour the junior pilot will have a ready source of advice and assistance from his colleagues and superiors. When given a more onerous secondary duty it will as a deputy which brings in the "mentoring" side of things. The majority of these jobs, though, are secondary ( hence secondary duties) to the primary task of being a pilot. . .. .On the admin side our plucky hero may find himself undertaking security courses and becoming the Sqn Security officer or the Adjutant (responsible for assisting the Boss and Flt Cdr's with the admin). He or she may pick up a job on the PR side of things espe if the Sqn is high profile (617 always seem to hosting visits from all walks of life for example).. .. .As a second tourist the pilot will be working up to leading larger formations(FJ) or doing a post grad QWI course and aiming for Deputy Flt Cdr slot. In the ME world our hero will starting down the road of his/ her first command and working towards becoming Pilot leader. The secondary duties would become slightly more onerous and may involve mentoring a more junior officer. Command training would continue with staff courses involving even more joined up writing practice and further study of leadership. Skills in presentation, public speaking and analysis ( sorting the wheat from the chaff) are honed by in depth Defence Studies. The officer will also qualify through a series of training courses to sit as a member of a court martial.. .. .The staff courses will continue with Flying Supervisor's then Flying Authoriser's course and a thrid tour may involve the CFS course and a spell as an instructor with responsibility for the welfare and development of the student pilots. . .. .Without harping on at too great a length it is, in short, a structured developemnt of management skills using the building block approach with continual mentoring and advice available. Aditionally, this is reinforced by a programme of development training both theoretical and practical.. .. .Finally, bear in mind that wherever possible the Services will resolve a dispute or problem at the lowest possible level as it is quicker, cheaper and far more effective in kiling any bad feeling or discontent.. .. .A brief addition in response to gengis remark. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> I know this doesn't address the root cause of the problem, but how about nobody giving any flying to this lady? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I recall flying with the lady when she was a new F/O; having done the pre flight paperwork and checked the Wx and notams etc she turned to me and asked " Which sectors do you want to fly then?". .. .Perhaps the rsponse should have been " Why thank you, I'll do all of them" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:11: Message edited by: PaulDeGearup ]</small>

[Muchheavierthanair]

One of the issues that hasn't been looked at so far on this thread is that men (including those who run airlines) are often frightened of women and the power they have if they choose to use the sexual harassment/ sexual discrimination avenues. . .. .MP was very obviously frightened of this power(as I would have been). Maybe the creeps that run his airline were too. (Will someone please mention which one it is so I can avoid ever flying for it: there is no requirement for anonymity here. Equally will someone please give at least the woman's initials (she doesn't merit any anonymity at all). .. .(and will everyone please stop referring to her as a lady). . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:16: Message edited by: Muchheavierthanair ]</small>

[Wig Wag]

*just put her my way for an LPC...... *. .. .If you use the SIM to chop pilots for political reasons you completely de-value it as a training tool.. .. .*If, following an accident, it were subsequently proved that pilots between whom a serious difficulty existed, were forced to work with each other against their better judgement, the Company could be held negligible in law.*. .. .Corporate liability could then be placed fair and square on the Fleet Manager who got them to fly together.. .. .*If they allow people with serious issues not to fly together, then they fear it will quickly degenerate into everyone just avoiding those with whom they are not 'best buddies'. Another expmple of management not affording us the professional respect that most of us deserve. Anyway, they perceive the risk of a CRM related 'incident' as less damaging than the risk of their rostering system descending into chaos!*. .. .V.O.L. (value of life) is the most cynical of bad working practice. I did read on PPRUNE that an American company has a bidline system where the Captains roster gets published first allowing the FO's to avoid certain Captains. That one doesn't cost anything.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 10:19: Message edited by: Wig Wag ]</small>

[Wiley]

Not sure if ‘naming and shaming’ is the way to go – at least not on this forum (if only for Danny’s sake). . .. .However, it would seem that many of the respondents here do know the lady (sic) in question… . .. .That being the case, could I suggest that each and every one of you pass a copy of this thread on to her to ensure she is left in no doubt of the level of esteem in which she is held by her peers? Snail mail or a hard copy in her… pigeon hole (I nearly said the wrong thing there) at work would protect those who don’t want to face the risk of litigation from the ‘lady’. . .. .Oh, and keep her updated as the thread continues to grow.

[Hot 'n' High]

MaximumPete - What a sorry saga, not only for you and Mrs MP who have clearly suffered dreadfully, but also for the many excellent Lady pilots out there today who view unpleasant women, such as the one you cite, with utter contempt. Those wise and able Ladies realise that the likes of this particular female serves to give them all a bad name - though I am sure all my male colleagues actually see this particular woman for what she is; utter pond life (and my apologies to Kermit 180 as I have already upset him before by using a similar analogy in the past!). Pity Management seemed to lack the IQ to work her out and/or the Management skills to sort the issue out. I thought that is what they were paid to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Looking at the wider case, I believe that “Positive Discrimination” at an early stage of training pushes through some unsuitable Pilots, both male and female. All the big Basic Training providers are to blame in not looking very critically at the wider, Human Factors, aspects of Pilots in the early stages of Training. Such “problem people” should be weeded out long before the IR. The Military are probably better at this as, what they train, they know they will probably fly with - if not in the same cockpit, possibly in very close formation on a dark and stormy night!!!!!! I wonder where this female did her basic training and what the honest views of her Instructors were? I would put money on the fact that she caused a few people to question her suitability to become a good, all-round, Aviator at the time. I wonder what, if any, steps were taken at that stage? Could the Airline sue the Training provider for not taking action then? Now, that would shake things up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .Generic cases of this in the Training world? Often male discrimination surrounds the seeming inability of many senior staff to see through the veneer of bulls**t that those without much natural ability tend to cover themselves with or, if the staff do, they avoid taking action which will lose the School money. The Student may pass the IR but so much about flying is mental ATTITUDE. Still, the Schools’ attitude is that the “problem” will soon be someone else’s and this prevents the appropriate steps being taken at that stage. The later a problem is left, the harder it is to sort it out – hardly HR Rocket Science. I am quite sure the fact that “money talks” has seen some dubious characters move into the Cockpit. However, the case here is a clear demonstration of the catty level a few women will sink to in order to cover their professional inadequacies. In some cases, those who hide behind the shield of “Sexual Harassment”, even when such harassment clearly does not exist, are quite happy to use sex to climb the airstairs into the Cockpit. Mmmm, I wonder…….! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Surely not! But I have seen it in the past so please don't shoot poor H 'n' H for talking out of turn.. .. .I think that the “PC Brigade” have actually dragged the recognition of women to where it should be; based on ability. Unfortunately, having arrived at the centre of the arena some decade ago, they forgot to stop running. In doing so they are now alienating their own kind! I recall seeing one Lady being subjected to “Positive Discrimination” and she was furious as she was paraded in front of the Press. She was actually highly professional – but her equally-able male counterparts were not put on show – and were they glad. So the “PC Brigade” have scored a lovely “own goal” if you ask me! Alas, too late in this case. Wasn’t it “The Two Ronnies” who did a sketch entitled “The Worm Has Turned”? Maybe we should dust that one down. Or maybe the Industry/CAA should take a more detailed look at training requirements.. .. .MP, whatever happens, you and Mrs MP have a wonderful “retirement” and put this woman behind you. Unfortunately, the female in question is our problem now. Thought you’d smile when you realised that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

[Raas767]

MP.. .. .Your story is tragic but certainly not unique in a world where "feminism" has run amuck. Though 99% of female pilots are highly competent there are the token few who are incopetent and eat up an enormous amount of training time and patience. Because of the lawyer commanded society we live in they are next to impossible to get rid of due of the inevitable discrimination lawsuit that follows. We all know the stories. I know dozens of them. The one that emediately comes to mind happened during initial training. A fellow in my class needed a few extra sim. sessions in order to be signed off for his FE checkride. He had failed his oral and was already nervous when he was paraded up to the chief pilot where, according to him, he was told in no uncertain terms that if he didn't get his ***t together he would be ou of there. Meanwhile a woman in the class just ahead of us was working on her 7th. extra sim. with no such threat. Had this happened to anyone else they would have been let go.. .Sexual harrasment has no business in any field, least of all aviation, but when management becomes more afraid of lawyers than of having incompetent pilots in their cockpits something is very wrong.. .The issues involved are compicated and not easily solved but the current system of affirmative action is flawed and needs to be abolished.

[Gaza]

MP. .. .I assume you signed a “Compromise Agreement” when you left our friends in the East Midlands that prevents you from taking legal action against them unless you pay back the settlement. However, that should not preclude you from taking legal action for defamation against the accuser and the other person who wrote to the Magistrates Court. . .. .Have you considered this or spoken to a lawyer?

[MaximumPete]

All I want is stop this happening to some other poor soul. Next time there could be family with children affected. It was bad enough for my parents and partner!. .. .As to my "friend" writing to the Court, their rules prevent me from naming and shaming him, but. .WE know who you are!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Gaza]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">All I want is stop this happening to some other poor soul. Next time there could be family with children affected. It was bad enough for my parents and partner!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">If she has to pay substantial damages and legal costs I think should would think twice before opening her gob again!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

[Stealth]

MP, all the best and I wish you to enjoy the retirement. If I were you the things would have been handled a little bit different. I would have gone all the way necessary in order to facilitate the sacking of your former F/O. The simple solution was to spend a thousand or so dollars and wire tape yourself with a good recording device including a miniature set of digital cameras installed in the frame of your glasses or any other suitable spot. All the meetings you attended could have been recorded and the developments in cockpit as well (not using the belt, overspeeding, clipboard, refusing to comply with the instructions of a senior pilot). Instead of drifting into depression you could have played the cat and mouse game as long as you wanted, finally confronting the management and threatening the legal action. That person would have been out and you would have had a peaceful career. The person in question can go on and do the same to others, so I hope that people working for your former company could learn from this.

[MaximumPete]

Gaza,. .. .A nice thought but unfortunately the Law assunes that employers are responsible people and therefore it is the employers who have jurisdiction and are effectively judge and jury in a case like this of one person's grievance against another.. .. .I've not signed a "Compromise Agreement" as there was no compromise, no agreement and no compensation, apart from losing my licence for ten months! . .. .In my ex-employer's eyes she is as "pure as the driven snow".. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[Son Of Piltdown]

'In my ex-employer's eyes she is as "pure as the driven snow".'. .. .Very droll, very very droll.. .. .Odd how you can be a real sh*t and be flavour of the month.. .. .Depends on personal tastes I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> suppose . . .

[SupremeSpod]

&gt; Depends on personal tastes I suppose . . . . .. .Or should that be Personnel Tastes?. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .Best of Luck in the retirement MP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Hot 'n' High]

The more I read of this - the more I wonder what the so-called 'lady' is doing "behind the scenes"! I've seen it happen before so nothing would surprise H 'n' H, cynical b*****d that I am! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. ."What goes around, comes around". Of that I am sure - though how many other victims there will be before that event is anyones guess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[striking a chord]

What a huge storm in a tea cup I thought most men stared at womens breasts all the time volentary or involentary,what are so special about hers.

[caulfield]

I would like to add my support for MP and make the following points:. .a)all airline management(particularly British) suffers from this "old boy" network crap.I have worked for the airline in question(I resigned along with countless others)and they are a perfect example.I have noticed with sadness how all the "wrong" people grease their way into the office and work their way up to positions of power,so that they can make others(esp those who dont have the correct handshake)lives hell.Unfortunately,all the good guys(and gals) who should be running things,seem to lack that ingredient that is required..namely ambition.They´re happy line flying and so get side-lined.Its the same the world over.Of course there are individual exceptions and there are airlines that are a real pleasure to fly for(Southwest Airlines...Dan Air by all accounts).. .ii)My own experience with female pilots has always been good,so this is certainly not the norm.. .iii)There is a sort of inverse prejudice in the modern world.Minorities and those perecived as down-trodden are now over protected and promoted.Nobody wants to fire a minority..we promote them to show how liberal we all are.Doesnt matter if they´re no good at the job they do.. .iv)Sexual harassment is so potentially explosive,it demands very delicate handling.I see fathers today afraid of how they hold their two year old daughter in case some social services blip gets the wrong idea.The only answer is legal representation very early on,even if there has only been a hint of something untoward.If you try and defend yourself,you´ll only end up sounding guilty.At the meeting where this woman admitted lying,a lawyer should have been present and minutes taken.That way there´s no later confusion.

[Tan]

Hmmm, from all the posts in favor of MP position, it would appear what’s happened to MP is not ethically or morally right.. .. .Because of the legal consequences it may not be wise to post the offending pilot (?) and the name of the company she works for on this forum. But that shouldn’t stop that type of information from appearing on another forum with a link to this thread.. .. .I would have thought that the heat that this thread is generating would have created some sort of response from either of the two guilty parties. Perhaps if the thread was forwarded to the Board of Directors of the airline in question or the shareholders, that would produce justice for all.. .. .Something should be done…

[PaulDeGearup]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Perhaps if the thread was forwarded to the Board of Directors of the airline in question or the shareholders, that would produce justice for all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">PDG rolls eyes !. .. .Nice idea but do you think it would work, MP? All things considered.

[stoweq]

Pete. .This is a truly dreadful situation and I wish you and yours the very best for the future. .Strangly enough I was talking to a friend before you started this thread who is a training Captain with his airline.. .He stated to me that he was deeply concerned because a female F/O in his company was way below standard and known to be by most of the line Captains. However everybody is scared to do anything because they know she will scream sexual harassment or discrimination if anyone makes a stand. Worse still he suspects she may be sleeping with an extremely senior pilot within the company who will protect her.. .So this is still going on. Maybe the only solution is to have either all male or all female flight decks and companies need to make an effort to have at least one female training captain who could tell the truth without fear of reprecussions.

[whose ya daddy!]

I wonder if the 'geezerbird' in question here has actualy been made aware of some of these postings?? If she is, I sincerely hope she is sleeping bad, not eating well and felling damn ashamed of her disgusting actions. The laws and obtuce thinking of some individuals have seriously let this 'true gent' and 'professional' down. I wish i could vouch for this mans stature, but not knowing him personally, I will have to rely on what has been writen about him on this thread. MP, you are one in a million, hold your head high, and be proud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .As for that geezerbird, if your reading this, "when the s*it goes down...you had better be ready!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[MaximumPete]

PDG. .. .NOT a chance mate!. .. .They are totally unshameable so it would an utter waste of time. If you are who I think you are have a go.. .. .Back to the DIY. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[fernytickles]

Monkee. .. .Your story sounds as awful as MP's. I am ashamed to be associated with someone who could behave in such a dishonourable and downright scummy manner by being of the same sex.. .. .Can this friend of yours document, and encourage others to do the same, any mistakes/discrepancies made by this FO, and have the CVR pulled on any flight when these occur, ensuring that he has made the situation very clear for all to hear? In case she tries the big SH (sexual harrassment), have a CA as witness anytime he feels there is going to be any sort of confrontation regarding her work performance. It sounds a very similar to when a woman is being harrassed at work, but it is never witnessed, and I think I am correct in saying in such a situation the woman is recommended to document everything, and if possible, have a witness. Can he persuade colleagues (preferably female, if possible) to ride on the jumpseat whenever they are rostered together? . .. .It all seems a bit extreme to have to go to such lengths, but if she has the potential to ruin his career for sure, and possibly any relationship he may have, nothing can be too much if it means preventing that, surely?.. .. .Hopefully someone is printing off all the posts and filing them in the pigeon hole of the person who did this to MP?

[Tan]

In my company, senior management realized that they had a problem with junior management pilots documenting incidents correctly so that they would be ironclad legally. Their solution, hire pilots who are also lawyers.. .. .The reason I recount the above is that it is extremely important to properly document every incident and that includes charges of sexual harassment or discrimination.. .. .If you do your homework, justice will prevail. However sometimes justice needs a little help. Alls fair in love and war.. .. .MP . .. .Maybe management may be “unshameable”, but I bet the traveling public and shareholders won’t be amused.

[twistedenginestarter]

Steady on here. Let's be clear the lady in question did not raise any issue of sexual harrassment or discrimination. That was Pete.. .. .She made some minor remark and retracted it in public.. .. .Maybe she is not a good pilot. I don't know. But I find this onslaught of slagging quite inconsistent with PPruNe and I'm disappointed Danny has left it on Rumours and News.

[MaximumPete]

twistedenginestarter. .. .I suggest you read page 1 again. . .. .The lady did the harassing, not me. She has refused to apologise to me, which I would have accepted. She has admitted to me, in front of two managers at a meeting, that she would use the same tactics again.. .. .Good luck when you next fly with her. You'll need it.. .. .Bewildered MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[STAN DEASY]

MP. .I presume your loss of licence insurance provided by the company paid out for 'mental illness'.. .Guess what, a little birdy suggested that Mental illness may now be written out of the Loss of licence cover for your ex-company.. .. .A dreadful story and frightening to see how it has been reinforced by others experiences - forwarned is forearmed. Best of luck in your retirement and I hope the supportive posts help to minimise the effects of the past few months.

[stoweq]

Maybe the conclusion we have to draw from all this and the other thread started on this topic is that here is one industry in which the sexes cannot mix. Safe operation seems to be compromised therefore we need to operate either all female or all male crews.

[Captain Moth]

prehaps a better selection process would be more effective. . I think the older generation have more fixed ideas about women and do not see them as equals its sad but true. .Let the old folk think and the young folk do.

[somewhatconcerned]

I have nothing to add to what has already been said just my support and best wishes for your future.. .. .Cheers

[McD]

A simple note of caution, purely from an Admin standpoint:. .. .May I kindly remind readers of the "rules" to which all contributors have agreed regarding defamatory postings. . .. .Calls to "name and shame", whether or not they seem justified, are not appropriate on this forum. . .. .There are plenty of ways to voice your opinions and support, or otherwise discuss this topic, without yielding to the temptation to use this forum as a public venue for revenge.

[Firestorm]

MP,. .. .I can only say I am shocked by what I have read, and doubly so by how unsurprised I am by the company reaction. I have heard of similar stories in the past.. .. .Good luck in your retirement: I hope this incident does not taint your attitude. You sound like one of the Good Guys.. .. .Can I just ask, where were BALPA in all of this? (Assuming you were a member of course).

[twistedenginestarter]

McD. .. .This is the serious allegation made by Pete:. .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> totally ineffective Fleet Manager refuses to discipline a lady first officer for sexual harassment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">This has not been substantitated in the slightest unless you count having a rude clipboard as sexual harrassment. By all means have a poll on whether other pilots can buy in to that but in the meantime I think you have to say most men should be able to ignore trivia like that.. .. .True, other gender issues have come in to the discussion. There is a suggestion that the female pilot was dealt with leniently because of fear of sexual discrimination but that is nothing to do with harrassment whatsoever.. .. .The Fleet Manager seems to have attempted to deal with this case in, I must say, exactly the way I would. . .. .It seems Pete, who we learn is a very valuable pilot, well liked etc etc, nevertheless cannot control his anger and just walk away. He gets all screwed up, so much so that he cannot work. Eventually he has to give up his job. A sad story which rather shames the female concerned, but is it enough to make accusations against the Fleet Manager?. .. .There is a word for this and I think it might be defamation.

[PaulDeGearup]

McD, . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> May I kindly remind readers of the "rules" to which all contributors have agreed regarding defamatory postings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">The Oxford English Dictionary defines "defame and defamatory" as:. .. . To take away or destroy the good fame or reputation of:to speak evil of:to charge falsely . .. .It appears then that the individual MP has stated made the complaint against him, which was then retracted does have a reputation. I submit, however, that it is not a "good" reputaion nor is it a famous reputation. That being the case a comment cannot remove, destroy or tarnish a non existent "good" reputaion. Moreover, MP has not charged falsely: the individual made the accusation. I can see nothing defamatory here.

[MaximumPete]

twistedenginestarter. .. .I think I'll just let my friends and peers judge!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Capt PPRuNe]

As this has passed the 100 post limit and some people are insisting on debating the minutae of dictionary definitions I am closing this thred.