The Rocky Road to Commercial Aviation - Please help out a wannabe!

[energie]

Hi guys,

I have been doing quite a bit of research into this area. I am 25 and currently working in the software industry.

I've had several hours into my PPL, but that's it, but I've been seriously looking into getting my foot into this industry. From my research, the responsibility, the lifestyle, the ability to fly, and the characteristic of a good pilot, they all just fit me like a glove. I've graduated from University Last year, so after working for a while, I have started to gather momentum to save enough money to start working towards my licenses.

I have a tremendous amount of initiative and determination, but I am concerned about the money and the opportunites in this industry as a commercial pilot. Let's face it, I know a lot of us wannabes are eager to get started, but we have to be realistic with our lives too.

Even if i am able to support myself and obtain my PPL/CPL/frozen ATPL licenses this year, I am guessing I will be a couple hundred hours shy of the minimum qualifications upon completion of my licenses (AirCanada is 1000TT right?)

How did you guys do this? Because it doesn't seem like instructing can gain the proper hours with the proper planes, and it surely won't pay enough :( I've looked into flying for cargo/local carriers like Sonic Blue Airways etc, but in my opinion that's where accidents and fatalities occur. The recent accident on Jan 22 ( I think ) where a Sonic Blue Airway's cessna caravan crashed supports my concerns :(

I don't have perfect 20/20 vision ( I have about 20/30, so pretty close but not quite), so joining the air force is probably out of the question.

The more I look into it, the more I realized how hard it is for you guys who are already commercial pilots. That is why I am wondering if you can share some of your experience and tips for an enthusiast like me. What did you guys do to achieve your dream?

Thanks very much in advance!

[The Dez]

Welcome to aviation. This type of job is truly a labour of love and passion for most. Prepare yourself now for a few years of low wages, sh*ty working conditions, possibly living in remote areas and having no fixed address for a while. Unless you are directly related to someone who owns or runs a descent flight ops this is probably what your going to face for the first little while. This start in aviation tends to weed out the wannabees within the first few years just like flight training does at around the $10k mark. If you don't mind relocating and doing some ramp work for a while then most northern operators will give you a second look provided you bring with you a good attitude, strong work ethic and back. It will be hard however some days to watch someone 5-7 years your junior still popping zits all over the captains shirt as they climb aboard that King Air that you just finished loading. Then there is the other option of instructing. Not to be looked down upon instructing has its merits as well. Although some may see this as a complete was of time it will by sheer neccessity impove your flying skill. You will probably not develop any bad habits for fear you pass them on to others. As well you understand more the intricacies of flying, not just what you need to pass an exam. You really learn alot by teaching. However this job too comes fully equipped with low pay, long hours and people who try to kill you every day. The only advantage is you may be able to secure a job within an urban region. Also be forwarned, 1000hrs is a posted minimum at A/C. Currently most of those being interview come with +2500hrsTT and good turboprop and jet experience. As for my experience, Instructed for 2yrs, then Navajo/421 6 months, S/O-F/O 727 year and half. 2200TT

Good Luck

[BartBandy]

Even if i am able to support myself and obtain my PPL/CPL/frozen ATPL licenses this year, I am guessing I will be a couple hundred hours shy of the minimum qualifications upon completion of my licenses (AirCanada is 1000TT right?)

:ok: god, those flight schools can just keep selling the dream. There are many, many experienced pilots with 3000+ hours still waiting for the call. I would expect like dez said, you'd need 2000 hours to be competitive in the future even.

How did you guys do this? Because it doesn't seem like instructing can gain the proper hours with the proper planes, and it surely won't pay enough :( I've looked into flying for cargo/local carriers like Sonic Blue Airways etc, but in my opinion that's where accidents and fatalities occur. The recent accident on Jan 22 ( I think ) where a Sonic Blue Airway's cessna caravan crashed supports my concerns :(

So, you are worried about instructing not paying enough, but you have considered Sonic Blue where you would fly for free, after bying a PPC? Riiiight.:hmm:

Sorry....but that just sounds fishy to me.

[energie]

So, you are worried about instructing not paying enough, but you have considered Sonic Blue where you would fly for free, after bying a PPC? Riiiight.

Sorry....but that just sounds fishy to me.


Hi BartBandy,

Thanks for your comment. I have already established my understanding of this not being easy at all, so please spare the sarcasm.


I pointed out that I am worried about instructing will not provide the proper hours with the proper planes, in addition to that the money isn't that good.
Flying for carriers like SBA would at least allow me to actually log useful TT/turbine/jet hours.

I have done as much research as I can absorb, sorry if my information isn't correct. If you have any useful advice/knowledge to share, that would be much appreciated.

thanks
E.

[J.O.]

energie:

An aviation career is definitely a labour of love for most of us. If I didn't enjoy it, I sure couldn't have jumped through all those hoops to get where I am today.

As was said above, 1,000 hours will not get you into an airline. It will take far more than that based on current projections. Don't sell flight instruction short as a way of beginning to build some hours. Will 3,000 hours in a C150 get you into AC / WJ / SSV / AT et al? Probably not, but there's no reason why it can't get you on the road. Lot's of us have instructing time and are in the airlines (myself included).

You sound like an intelligent individual who's capable of making good decisions, but be very careful about going to work for any operators that want you to work for free, live in the hangar etc. Any outfit that isn't willing to pay a wage that will at least allow you to house, feed and cloth yourself locally, is not worth working for, for the simple reason that you can't tell where else they may be cutting corners. There are plenty of small aircraft operators who understand that the best way to stay in business is to spend the money it takes to operate safely. The minute you allow someone to take advantage of you, you're opening the door to accepting other opportunities to put yourself at unnecessary risk.

Good luck!

Jeff

[energie]

Thanks for that J.O.

I am sure instructing has its reward, or else there won't be so many instructors :)

Just curious though, On average, is it true that someone coming out of a PPL/CPL license will have about 250 hours? How many years of instructing will it take to gain some decent hours? I can't estimate it because I simply don't know how many hours an instructor can teach per month on average.

[J.O.]

energie:

You must understand that I haven't been round a flying school for close to 20 years, so I may not be the best one to answer. I had 300 hrs when I finished my CPL and Instructor Rating, and I started teaching almost immediately. I was at a reasonably active school, and if you were willing to put in the time, you could put in 75 hrs a month or more pretty easily. It would be a good idea to be selective in your flight schools. Find a school that offers IFR and mulyi-engine training. From the start, tell the school that you'd like a job (for pay) pumping fuel and dispatching flights between flying lessons. A hard worker who shows interest is far more likely get ahead.

[energie]

that sounds great. thanks for the suggestion!

[spencer101]

energie

Your previous post had a key word in it , "years". Be prepared to work for years earning penuts before you land a job with an airline. Then once you do land that persious job you will still be making a poor wage for the first few years. I've been at this for 10 years now with almost 7000hrs and still find myself waiting for the airlines to call me with my dream job offer.

[FFP]

One word.

Military

[energie]

Yeah, I am going to give that a try, although I really aren't sure about the vision requirement.

[The Dez]

Military may have its draw backs. The advantage is all your training is funded by the taxpayer, you may get the opportunity to fly tac jets or tranports, great job security, benefits and pension. However, it takes a certain breed to make it through the training and adapt to military life. It starts right from basic training. Some of the other draw backs are that you may get stuck flying something you really don't want to (ie helos), Also, this is not a real good place to build time as cut backs have lead to reduce sorties. I believe the average is 2500hrs over 9 years if I'm correct. Do the math, thats not alot of flying. In addition, a 9 yr commitment with a minimum of 2 yrs driving a desk may not appeal to some. Least we forget that possibility you may get killed if you are deployed to a conflict zone. Also airlines sometimes shy away from fighter jocks even though they have great flying experience and skill but some lack the CRM skills which are critical when flying in a operation where the roster is large and you are constantly flying with different people all the time. Tranport and multi crew military drivers generally have the advantage here.

[J.O.]

Also airlines sometimes shy away from fighter jocks even though they have great flying experience and skill but some lack the CRM skills which are critical when flying in a operation where the roster is large and you are constantly flying with different people all the time. Tranport and multi crew military drivers generally have the advantage here.

I know lots of ex-fighter pilots who have great CRM skills and a few ex-transport pilots who are less than fun to work with. It's the man, not the machine.

[energie]

Military experience is definitely an asset, just like cadet programs.
But Dez is right, I have the same concern too. In order to earn the mere 1000-2000 Hours, you will have to work for a LONG time, risking your life. It is a heroic step to join the military, but the more I think about it, the more I feel that if I do join I will be joining with the wrong incentive.

[Macgyver]

energie,

I graduated from University back in April 2004 with all my ratings. After I finished, I completed my instructor rating by July. I was hired by my flight school and started to work in a non-flying job (dispatching) with an eventual "promise" to be flying within a few months, assuming a spot would open up. After 1 month, I was offered a flying job elsewhere doing aerial photography. I did that job for 1 year and had a lot of fun. I gained experience flying across the country in an old 152, and also got a bit of flight operations experience on the side. It was a very fun job. 6 months ago I was offered a job in northern manitoba to work for a company in the cargo dept. I'm making $10/hr right now and I'm not flying. It's a good company, and with time, I will be moved onto a twin turbine a/c. I'm not living in a very nice city, nor am I making much money. The lifestyle certainly isn't glamourous.

When I was still in school, I imagined that 2 years from my graduation, I would probably be in a twin, or possibly in a turbine a/c. Well, I'm not in either. I'm happy where I am though, and that is all that matters.

The point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't put too much effort into planning your entire career out. Just take it one step at a time. The most important thing is the journey- if you focus too much on the destination, then you will not have much fun and you might start to get bitter.

Don't get caught up in promises of being at an airline like Air Canada or elsewhere from flight schools. It takes years to get competitive experience, as the others have alluded too. My dream is to go to Air Canada, but I have become resigned to the fact that I may not ever get there. I have absolutely no idea where I will end up- that's why I try not to think about it too much.

Finally, don't go to Sonic Blue. They are the scum of this industry. Most people start out instructing, working the ramp, or flying floats. I know 2 of my old instructors spent about 3 years gaining experience before they got their first "real" flying job. One of them is now on the RJ at Jazz, the other is captain on a King Air. I know many former instructors at Air Canada, Westjet, Cathay, etc, so don't discount this route.

[energie]

Thanks for the encouragment. The reason why I'm trying to look so far ahead is because i need to assess the risk if i were to fully take this path. I have to consider my ability to provide for my gf/future wife too. If I didn't have to, i wouldn't even think twice about pursuing this.

Rocky road in deed :(

[J.O.]

energie:

The fact that you're looking at the risks in advance says to me that you're an excellent candidate! Pilots above all else, are good at assessing the risks ahead.

Take it from someone who knows first hand, if you're in a serious relationship, you need to be honest and up front with your partner about what's ahead. They need to know the potential pitfalls and sacrifices that may come as you work toward your career goals. They must be supportive of those goals, and if their personal career / life situation allows, it's great if they're willing to follow you on your employment adventures to far away places. I've been married for 24 years to just such a person, and she has made my career a whole lot more rewarding because she's enjoyed being along for the ride. And, dealing with the occasional challenges (unemployment, packing up and moving to a new town for a new job, long times away from her and the kids) have actually served to make our relationship stronger. I'm very lucky!

Jeff

[energie]

congratulations to you J.O. You're a lucky man.

I also have such a partner who's will be in a profession that is in demand in the boonies, but I would feel terribly bad to drag her up there just to fullfill my dream. But that's somehting we will have to work out ourselves.


It will be a tough road. I will have to decided when I need to give up my current 70K job to pursue this dream, there is no way I will get there doing this part time. This year I will get my PPL. Try out for the Cathay cadet scheme again (I've recently failed), and see where that goes.

[energie]

if only airlines actually hire the top students from aviation schools :S is that only a fairy tale?

anyway, bump

[Four-Six North]

Hey energie,

I’m pretty much in the same boat as you. Graduated with a degree in Corporate Finance, working a good job in my field, and slowly starting with the PPL now that prior debts are paid off and obligations taken care of.

What the other more experienced guys have said above is pretty much what I’ve been hearing all along, so my approach is to give the PPL a shot, if I continue to be in love with it at the end of it (hey, anyone can say they’ve been dreaming of this for years) then maybe giving up the old bill-paying job in favour of the flying career won’t be nearly as difficult.

Of course as much as I’m taking it “one step at a time”, I can’t help but wonder what the cut-off age for the regionals/airlines is these days. There also seems to be some differing opinions as to whether or not the prospects in the near future are better in Canada or in Europe. Any opinions here?

Also, WRT the military, I was told by a recruiter about a year ago that given the huge pilot shortage they’re facing, he was expecting them to relax the vision requirements at the entry phase. Instead, apparently they decided to relax the academic standards (I believe you now no longer have to have completed high-school physics and chemistry). I recently wrote a letter to the Minister of Defence, the Chief of Recruiting at DND Ottawa, and my MP suggesting they “modernize” their vision standards. Maybe you should do the same if you’re interested in that route (you never know!).

All the best,

46N

[DHC-6 Guy]

I took my first flying lesson when I was 26. I took 2 years to finish all my ratings, while still working. I did my instructor rating as well. By 29 I was teaching flying lessons and yes it was a serious pay cut!! But if you REALLY love flying you have to do it.

People who knock instructing are usually people that have not done it. It can be very rewarding, but you cannot do it forever. I instructed for about 18 months. If you are at a busy enough flight school you can leave after a year or two with 1000 hours in your log book. Those PIC hours can be very important later on depending on the operation you are involved in.

I moved on, but it was a very bad time in aviation (just before Sept 11) and had a rough go for several years, not being able to get a "decent" flying job. I drove across the country a few times with no luck, nothing was moving at the time.

Anyway after a few years of struggling I left aviation and went to work for a large corporation. Within 6 months I was miserable. Once I had a taste of aviation I did not want to work in any other industry. So I went on the job hunt…again. I managed to get an office job with a respected medium sized operation with a nice fleet. I did that for 2 years and after a lot of hard work was rewarded with a right seat turbine job. It is amazing.

A few months ago I was woken up at 2am to do a Medevac flight. 30 minutes later I was outside fueling the airplane, temperature was –25, 30 knot wind out of the North, away from home, and what came into my mind? "I would not want to be doing anything but this"

If you are passionate about flying, my advice is go for it!!

I am in my mid-thirties, and don’t have a ton of hours. I may never make it to Air Canada, but I have realized there is a lot more to life than making it to AC.

Enjoy the ride.

[meaw]

Well said DHC6,

What you have to remember is that very very few people actually like what they do for a living let alone have a passion for it.We as pilots are blessed if we can do somthing every day that gives us that passion and that reason for getting out of bed in the morning.
I have been flying for close to 20 years(commercialy for 15),everything from flying medevacs and cargo on a Aztec in the middle of the night with a malfunctionning heater for 6$ an hour ,to charter,to regional to long haul airline flying.In the first 5 years of getting paid to fly my salary never went above 20,000$.Never got more than 1 day off a week.Flew all sorts of acft in all sorts off WX at all times of the day.Didn't have a social life for the first seven years nor could I afford one.
Finally made it to airlines were the pay is nice,the aircraft are the best around and the schedules can be very good.But then there are the layoffs,seniority disputes,CCAA,Juniority wich means no weekends,holidays,weddings,birthdays etc...
And you know what?At every stage of my career I couldn't wait for my vacations to finish so I could get back behind the yoke,I look forward to my days off to be with my family but not because I need to get away from the job because I still love airplanes and airports.I still look up at the sky every time an aircraft passes overhead,wondering where it is going,where the crew will layover.
Despite the low pay,pay cuts,long days,hotels,relocations,layoffs etc..I still wake up every morning thinking that I am the luckiest bastard to make my living at something that I love so much.Believe me it's not always easy,we bitch about a lot on these forums but the fact is this:if aviation is in your blood then you dont have a choice but to stay with it because you will never be happy doing anything else.You will learn to adapt to low pay, being away from your family and working weird hours because if you did anything else for a living ,all the money in the world and the time off and the 9 to 5 schedule wont give you the one thing you really need:to be in the sky.
After 20 years of sometimes very hard times I wouldn't change it for the world
and neither would just about every other pilot I know.Follow your passion and good luck!

[flyboy519]

Hi All ...

This is a great post with alot of good info. For my case, I got my first flying job when I was 29 but managed to play they last hiring wave and got on a turbine job with only 800hrs. Did a few cargo companies, a commuter airline, a couple of corporate jobs and was at Skyservice ( Hi jeff !! ) before leavi
ng Canada ( not an easy decision ) and going to Dubai to fly for Emirates on the B777. All in less than 10 years.

I have to say this a great industry, but its not for the faint of heart. You will get frustrated but there is nothing better. Have fun all

Doug

[Four-Six North]

Doug-

Curious, did you do anything special to 'play' the last hiring wave? Any special skills you have over and above your average bear? Turbine with 800hrs is impressive considering the many stories of guys with many more hours still instructing, and the "it's no joyride" / "20 years till the airlines" posts, etc. Congratulations... how's Dubai?

46N

[flyboy519]

46n

Anything special ?? ... not really but i did buy alot of beers for CPs and DFOs in order to get that first job. I guess I was lucky for that first job. The important thing was to keep on those companies and dont go away after the first no. I do have a university degree but I honestly believe that it did absolutely nothing for me in my aviation career.

As for Dubai, It actually rained today ( very rare ). Flying is great and seeing the world has been an adventure to say the least.:ok:

Doug