Capped Actuals

[Arty Fufkin]

This is No Duff.
A very reliable bloke in the pub has confirmed that as of 1 Apr all alowances will be administered as Capped Actuals.
In practice this means that down route the imprest holder will still issue an amount of money equivalent to the local rate, but you will have to provide reciepts for what you buy and pay back the change. Obviously the generosity of our lords and masters will not extend to a few beers at the end of a 16 hr day.
In other words a night stop or more practically 24 off somewhere half decent (a rarity these days I know) could be an expensive proposition. Any thoughts?

[FEWNCOP]

What concerns me is that we're gonna have to keep receipts for at least a year, and possibly longer. Are we gonna get a 'pay your accountant' allowance. This may be all very well for the blunties that might do a couple of nights in London a year, but for those of us that spend months every year on detatchment/deployment, it's gonna be an administrative nightmare.

Imagine all the receipts, for every single meal, from an 8 week detatchment, several times a year.

Please, show me to the door.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Get a copy of the rules, and work out the maximum entitlement. Buy everything you are entitled to at every opportunity. If you dont want it, throw it in the bin.

If we can make this cost a fortune, they will stop it, as happened last time they tried this.

Play them at their game, just make sure you know the rules.

[mbga9pgf]

Not if they cap actuals at the original level of rates we wont. How about we refuse to eat somewhere unless they label all "drinks" purchases on a reciept as beverages?

And are we going to have the ludicrous situation (as usual) of some blunty sribbly sitting in an office, on 25K PA chasing up overclaims which potentially add up to very little?

Another affront to our way of life I fear. Well I tell you this, the buggers aint going to get PAYD in MY mess, no matter HOW much money it saves them. That would be the last straw, Ive only been in 6 years!!!

[Arty Fufkin]

See what you're saying P-T, However. The snag with how they are administering it this time is that they will only pay up to the current daily rate. In other words, unless you can spend and get receipts for the EXACT amount of that rate, the system will always end up paying out less.
And if you are planning to snow the system under with 25 individual receipts for diet cokes to spend your whole allowance, remember this is all under the auspices of JPA where YOU are responsible for administration. The only person you will make work for is yourself. I think the fun police have really thought this one through!

[Excommunicator]

As ever the Bean Counters trying to squeeze every last drop of blood from the boys. Their line will be "...just ensuring that people are only receiving what they are entitled to claim for...". They have no concept of the admin burden it will cause; push factor or what! As for trust......

Few points to ponder:
What if you find yourself in a strange hotel, in a strange city at a strange hour of the day. No other food outlet available/open, and the cost of the meal you are entitled to is outside the "capping" of the actuals. Do you have to go hungry?

Alternatively, what if you find yourself ot some form of airport snack bar where no receipts are available? Do you pay from your own pocket? :mad:

[dallas]

Ex

I understand with Problem 1 you can pay over your allowance but have to justify it. I imagine this will be a simple process only requiring a sworn statement in Crown Court, countersigned by the last 4 generations of your ancestors.

Characteristically, nobody appears to have made provision for Problem 2. The Counters only tend to travel business class and stay in 4* and above so of course they can get receipts. You little people? Oh you're being petty...

A good one I thought of was the junior ranks on 8+ week dets - in expensive places (BAH?) they'll be seriously out of pocket (% wise) when they get back. As the Army are the lead on this I doubt welfare was a high priority at the ideas stage.

[southside]

I cant see the problem. At the moment we get subs, which work out to be at or around £24 a day. In the future we will get actuals which will be at or around £24 a day. At the moment we have to fill a long and complicated form in, have it signed and counter-signed by your Budget controller - send it off to the UPO where they sit on it for a month before they send it back tewlling you that you missed a full stop out of it and eventually you may get your money. In the future, you'll tick a couple of boxes on your PC, click the send button and the wadge will be in your bank. The only propblem is that you have to keep receipts for 12 months. Well, that will be the same as keeping your receipts that you do now...receipts for petrol, food, clothing etc.. Can someone enlighten me as to what the difference will be?

[Where R We?]

What happens when the rates do not cover the meals allowances required for living somewhere? In the old days you could go on actuals, and take copies of the menus etc? Is this going to happen?

The other thing is what about UK night stops, I know £20 doesn't go very far when trying to get breakfast, lunch and dinner of a reputable quality?

With regard to keeping receipts, I don't personally keep personal meal receipts for a year, maybe something that might go wrong eg electrical items, but food bills, no.

WRW

[Dave Angel]

Quote
"A very reliable bloke in the pub has confirmed that as of 1 Apr all allowances will be administered as Capped Actuals."
I can tell you that its happening now. In a couple of days time I will be on capped actuals albeit only for 5 days but I'll let you know what a balls-ache it is afterwards.
Don't know if they've thought about the hassles of trying to get individual bills from a restaurant when eating together as a large multi-engine crew. Or as aluded to earlier when flying outside 'normal working hours' and trying to manage receipts from a 9 week deployment.
Also if you're not issued an advance against the capped actual, how are the junior ground crew members going to fund themselves through a long det?
I don't suppose the fun police care about that!:mad:

[Arty Fufkin]

Southside, The last time I was entitled to rates, the imprest holder gave me $60 and I put my signature to a single piece of paper and that was that. No admin burden and I could even have a few glasses of wine with my meal (I would at home so why not down route?)No receipts, no hassle and if it was a long layover a couple of social beers with the rest of the crew.

And before anyone gets on a high horse about Alcohol, a T-Totaler would feel a bit stupid asking for a receipt for his OJ and lemonade downtown. Or are we all supposed to remain in the hotel and not have a look around while we are lucky enough to go somewhere with some entertainment?

In a world of increasingly monotonous dets to increasingly grubby places, I find it a little annoying that someone seems intent on chiseling away at one of the few aspects of the job that people enjoy these days.

[dallas]

Think you're right Arty, there's definitely chisellers at work here...

On the up side, the savings from you will pay for the staff needed to do the percentage checks - brilliant!

Sarcasm apart, it does seem extremely poorly thought out.

[truckiebloke]

I wonder if our good Prime minister and all the other MP's will go on to capped actuals too, just to save some money......

[dallas]

Hey Jackonicko - why not run a story:

"Servicemen's debts likely to rise as Blair talks of the debt we all owe"
As Tony Blair referred to the debt we all owe British servicemen for their work in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, elsewhere modest allowances for overnight duty stops were in the process of being cut. The rates, paid to servicemen who require overnight accommodation away from home base, such as RAF aircrews, are being replaced by a bureacratic system of collecting and reclaiming receipts. This is in stark contrast to the serviceman's boss, the Defence Secretary, who as a Member of Parliament receives £87 [for example] with no need to account for actual expenditure. An unidentified RAF officer said "it's ridiculous - I've spent half my week away counting up Euros, Zlotys, Dollars and Dinar, all handed back to me by the crew. I've even had to give them all receipts so they can account for the money given back". A RAF spokesman said "This new accounting system works perfectly well and, with staff adjustments, only costs £32,000 more a year". "Pound for pound it's second to none of any other bad idea we've ever had" he added.

Maybe in expensive places we could have a cost of living allowance - we could call it...Local Overseas Allowance or something...

[FFP]

Truckie mate speaking, and breaking it down for all to understand,so here goes .. . .

This capped actuals thing. I'm going to have to give the defence for the system first.

On a route, as a truckie, the Co carries an imprest, with suitable denominations of money for areas you are likely to visit, in suitable quantities and with a "rate" sheet for each area. So on a States trip, some US dollars and Canadian dollars would see you good. Out to the desert, US and Euro's would see you good. They give you a sheet, you put your details on it , sign for X amount and that's that. Any balance or refund is done through your pay. Paperwork is minimum (for all except the Co maybe)

Now the rate sheet has an amount for B'fast, lunch and dinner, the purpose being that if you are on the ground for more than 3 hrs and at least 30 mins in the period, you are entitled to the appropriate rate. Now I don't care what anyone says, but if you can't get dinner in Cyprus for £25 Cyp or lunch for £11, or even dinner in the States for $40 US, then you either being ripped off or eating far too much.
The current system gives you the money, say $80 US for the day, and assumes we are all big boys and girls and eat our greens like Mum says. You can go and blow $75 on getting pi$$ed and get McDonalds or you can go and get a proper 3 course meal, as per the rules and the costings the scribblies worked to when they went out to determine the cost.

A Big point here fella's, rates are great for drinking on, but the RAF doesn't owe you alcohol at the end of your day. It's meant for eating. Maybe you'd like to see a rate for 3 local beers per 24hr stop. But until that happens, the system is for food and soft drinks with your meal. The idea is that if you were at your home base, you could eat a decent meal in your mess and have water or squash with your meal. You don't get a pint with your meal in the mess. If you want one, you buy it yourself at the mess bar. You don't expect to drink at home for free, so why abroad ?

Now I know there's nothing better than meeting in the bar after a long hard day for some well deserved beers. I don't think we as a public service can justify using taxpayers money specifically for alcohol. If you can get a scam going with a restaurant and with the receipts stating Coke, then fine, good on you. But the RAF has to devise a system for feeding you down route.

The thing with the new system is that the RAF can only make or save on it. Before they were giving $80 a day, now, if you manage to eat and get receipts for $80, then they aren't spending any more. On the balance of things, people will either get receipts for less, so money is saved or if you eat over, then they still only pay the $80.
But what if I can't eat on that ? Get menu's from where you are, and if you can prove the cost was indeed resonable, then it gets sorted and the rate revised for further visits.

You also get a rate for Personal Incidental Expenses or PIE as it's known. This caters for your newspaper you must have down route, a 3 MINUTE (note this point, we'll be coming back to this) home to the missus or whoever, and laundry. For instance, in the states, it's $18.30 at the moment I think.

Now the 3 minute call home, done from the comfort of your Marriott room to the wife's mobile, I reckon could eat up the $18 in one go. But that's the entitlement, so make a point of it. Get a receipt for the 3 min call which the hotel should provide and if everyone does that, it can't be long before the paper trails says " It was cheaper to give them $18, and let them deal with it. This way, it's costing much more" Also interesting to note that the call could be your mobile to a UK mobile I guess ? You are entitled to a 3 min call. So make sure you use it.

The big ball ache will be whether you have to keep the receipts yourself for a year (or risk an audit ? What will they do if you can't provide a receipt for that one dinner in Lajes ?) OR whether the Co will have to take in all the receipts as part of the imprest ?

Where will it hit the hardest ? Bahrain. Those on a 4 month tour won't be able to save quite as much money as they have in the past, and those familiar with the situation there will know just how much of an effect that will have.

[SwitchMonkey]

What about tips or, as they are often called, service charges? Certainly in the US, waitresses etc are taxed as if they receive tips. So do we now have to ask for a receipt for tips? How pikey are we going to look?


If we don’t get a receipt for the tip we have to cough up about 10-15% of the cost out of our own pocket. So $80 allowed per day for food & non-alcoholic beverages means $8-12 of your own money on tips.

A 30 day det will cost you $240 – 360 in tips.

The wedge is getting thicker.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Point of order FFP
"On a route, as a truckie, the Co carries an imprest" Wrong take your clothes off as the mighty J empowers the enlisted filth with imprest:p

Edited to avoid getting in bother:E

As previously posted phone home from your hotel room, having first established the most expensive method and don't forget to order the paper you are entitled to:p

If "used" properly this new capped system will not save any money for the bean counters but will prove to be great fun for the rest of us as we come up with new and more imaginative ways of beating the thieving gypsy admin world:ok:

all spelling mistake are "df" alcohol induced

[Could be the last?]

Why not issue all SNCOs and above corporate credit cards or the new GPC? That way the receipts etc and any admin is undertaken by the system. .:ok:

[truckiebloke]

And rightly so giving the imprest to the enlisted filth!!!

I like your imagination Always Broken, and as my morale could not get any lower with the airforce, they bring this sh** in...

But i am pleased to say i am looking forward to my next route with you(now you have stopped war dodging!!) to fully push the limits to this new system!!

Thanks!:) :) :ok: :ok:

[southside]

Why not issue all SNCOs and above corporate credit cards ...??? not sure I understand that. It sounds like youre saying that the SNCO's are NOT already issued with Barclaycards. Surely the RAF is now in the 20th Century at last and issues iALL of its Officers and SNCOs with Barclaycards?

[ZH875]

And issue each card holder an Admin wally to do all the paperwork, and keep track of all the excess reciepts the system will generate.

What credit limit would you put on a card?

How much would HOTAC and food for a 5 week deployment cost for 16 people, would their Beanships want more credit cards with lots of dosh on.

Judging by the number of Army ID cards that are lost, would you trust a grunt with a £50000 Barclaycard?. :)

[southside]

Im not sure there is a credit limit on the Barclaycard I hold. Nor the one my SMR holds or even the one the Petty Officer holds. If I trust my SMR with the maintenance of my Helicopter, I trust him with a piece of plastic.

But, if you dont have a pussers barclaycard, how do you pay for hotel accom and petrol etc, etc?

[FFP]

Sorry ABIW, and the loadie on Tri* does it too.

Good point on the tips though. I'm not sure on the answer for that. Guess they'd say it's in your rate but that's not on.

[Fill 2 fool]

Yet another Fark factor in a long line of morale crushing, re-invent the wheel decisions by our lords and masters all in the dirty name of jointery. I will definately be joining the great unwashed before someone comes out with a design for some natty PURPLE No 1's.

FFP - hadn't even considered the individual audit. I can't even keep my pay statements safe for a few days!! Still, i suppose it would stop them scrutinising JUST the Co/LM/lead wet/dry with special investigators around the world to check up on say, a £20 phone bill in deepest Africa for example..........

[theboywide]

Good idea and cost saving for the air force as this is I think its just one more in a long line of things which will convince guys to poke off to the airlines.
Booming airline recruitment, no FRI, capped actuals, 4 months of a year out in Basrah at the mo with a potential to rise considerably in the coming year.
I think someone up top needs to think about how all these changes are going to impact the front line and how over the next year they are going to be able to retain there multi-engined pilots.

[Where R We?]

Im not sure there is a credit limit on the Barclaycard I hold. Nor the one my SMR holds or even the one the Petty Officer holds. If I trust my SMR with the maintenance of my Helicopter, I trust him with a piece of plastic.
But, if you dont have a pussers barclaycard, how do you pay for hotel accom and petrol etc, etc?

I have a GPC with work and it is capped at 2k per single transaction, 4k per month, 4k total credit limit. If I didn't have one, I would have to pay out of my own credit card, and then claim everything back that way. Which would be interest free if the accounts people kept their side of the bargain and paid up on time...

I am not sure how JPA will work with detachments though, I can't see the heirachy expecting airman (other ranks equivalents) to cope with paying for x weeks overseas without advancing the rates. How else are they supposed to settle their (work) credit card bills if they are not in the country to see the bill?

Regards

[Safety_Helmut]

So, are we also saying that we will be subject to this madness for the trips to the Abbey Wood Gin Place ? So, away for the night, £20 overnight rate (-£2.70 travel element which is rarely used). So what will lunch be capped at, about a fiver at my guess, lets have a think which f@cking Happy Meal we'll be choosing then. Don't forget the receipt mind ! So on to the evening meal, about £12 left, slap up feast on the cards (not), washed down by a jug of tap water, as your civil service colleague quaffs his bottle of Chateau-neuf-de-pape across the table.

It's public money though, I don't expect to live it up on the taxpayer (well not if they know about it), but I do want to be treated fairly and equitably. So, why has the £20 overnight rate been the same for at least the last 10 years ?

Oh, and good point about the softies, woe betide anyone who submits a receipt for a pint of Old Dog Bolter for £2.80, however, a large diet coke for £3.00, no problem sir !

Safety_Helmut

[D-IFF_ident]

Isn't the 'capped actuals' future a product of JPA?

Either we're all going to eat everything we can to get the receipts up to the limit, and all get even fatter, we're going to buy stuff to the limit and chuck stuff away or we're going rummaging in restaurant garbage cans....

What's next?

Actuals for LOA, receipts for petrol purchased and mpg analysis of vehicles for home to duty, weighing of stools to prove missed meals, telephone company reports and laundry receipts for PIE, video proof that you went home when you claimed 'get you home', actuals for disturbance allowance claimed in arrears?

I must have missed the capping of actual common sense announcement.

[YellowBelly]

The other down side to the new system will be its impact upon crew social events while detached. Appreciate its not going to be a consideration for the policy makers, but imagine the reaction of most restaurants when 20 crewmembers pitch up for a social gathering and ask for individual bills/receipts. Ok, it will be the end of whines like "he had the extra poppadum" but I see it killing off one of the more enjoyable aspects of Service life.

[BEagle]

Of course there's nothing to say that the receipts have to be In English - or even printed.....

A few handwritten bits of paper, preferably written in some obscure Arab dialect, should make things interesting for the Blunt Ones who thought this up....

There are some countries which forbid you taking their blats out of the country (India, for one). What mechanism will be in place to cope with such an eventuality, I wonder...

Whoever dreamed up this penny-pinching morale-bruising nonsense should be strung up by the thumbs. Or nuts, if possessed....

[dalek]

Actuals, where the imprest holder accounts for every penny have always been impossible to administer.
Example go out for an evening meal with crew. You have meal (allowable) with a couple of beers ( not allowable) and service charge (?). Everyone has different. The only way to work it is to ask for separate bills and have the bills broken down into allowable / none allowable items.
Now try repeating this exercise in Mandarin.
The following morning take these multiple pieces of paper to the imprest officer (co-pilot?), after all he has no other duties and when he has them sorted he can discuss any issues with the captain on the flight deck. After all they have nothing else to do.
The only way to account for every penny is to use something like the F1771.
All crew members are issued with money from accounts and they keep all their own receipts. Every week or two they go to Admin wing and explain their own expenditure.
This system is a little time consuming for crew members but complex for accounts, thats why they don't like it

[BEagle]

Simple question - what do other nations' air forces do?

[The Rocket]

Every week or two they go to Admin wing and explain their own expenditure


Unless some bright spark decides to get rid of admin wing and make us do all our own administration that is:rolleyes: :mad:

[mbga9pgf]

Unless some bright spark decides to get rid of admin wing and make us do all our own administration that is:rolleyes: :mad:


To be fair, apart from this abortion, I cant wait for JPA to get in. More oxgen for the rest of us that is currently being wasted by our blunty scribbly infested service. Axe em all. and about time we got shot of tac admin wing too, what a waste of space!

[LFFC]

JPA! Why not check when your leave year now ends.

[mbga9pgf]

JPA! Why not check when your leave year now ends.



was my understanding it was moving, but I believe, once in a blue moon, that as regards no of days leave we get given, we are all going to benefit. Or have I been lied to again?

[Excommunicator]

If JPA is aiming to reduce the admin burden - or even spread it across so that some of it is borne by the individual - then surely the concept Mike J suggests above is the way ahead....
A Flat Rate across the board of £XX per day. Its what civvy companies do, but it does involve one revolutionary concet - Trust.

I don't buy the accounting for every penny of public money line. Just tell the boys (and girls) what they are allowed to spend on and let them decide whether they play within the rules or not.

The savings in admin would be huge; in essence a time sheet and actuals for Hotac. You could also preload peoples credit cards with funds (advanceable at hotel reception) to deal with the longer term det....

Its not as if we're the only company in the world trying to do this sort of thing...

[LFFC]

was my understanding it was moving, but I believe, once in a blue moon, that as regards no of days leave we get given, we are all going to benefit. Or have I been lied to again?

Maybe we should all check to see what the latest plans are.

[dallas]

Apart from because 'somebody with the right rank said so' I don't understand why we eternally complicate our procedures with nobody apparently correlating the slight savings today versus the long-term loss of hearts and minds. Apparently minor things like this all add up to final straws, requiring markedly more long term expenditure to replace people who have had enough of this nonsense.

So much more could be achieved in terms of savings by issuing a flat rate no matter where in the world you are. As a long term investment people working extremely hard wouldn't think they were being screwed over again by the organisation they're representing.

It wouldn't be so bad if this change fell into line with other organisations like the Civil Service, MPs etc. Of course MPs make their own rules and certainly don't want to be pestered by actuals - think I read the other day a MP gets a flat rate for every night away from 'home' (doesn't matter if this is at the London 'residence' though - that's a second home hardship they have to suffer). Civil Servants benefit from a union and don't take kindly to nonsense.

Our 'representatives' didn't get where they are by disagreeing now did they?

[Trumpet_trousers]

Make the system simpler - a flat daily rate for each specific "theatre"
ISTR that the 'world's favourite airline' do (or did) something similar - an acquaintance of mine used to get 15 days 'rates' (c. 50 GBP/day) paid into her bank account every month, irrespective of whether she was working for 20+ days each month, or just 3-4. Swings and roundabouts - some months she was quids in, others not, but overall she was financially better off at the end of each year and the whole system was simple to administer.
Obviously, you can't draw parallels between airlines doing repetitive routes day in, day out and people stuck in the sandpit for months at a time, but there must be some merit in looking at a similar system?

[Mead Pusher]

On the point about leave raised above...

The leave year will become 1 April - 31 March. We will still get 30 days annual leave and up to 15 automatically carried over, and will still have to apply for additional leave to be carried over - so no change there.

We will also be changing to POL (replacing PODL), which is an Army system. We will get one day leave automatically added to our entitlement for every 9 days spent OOA (so 13 days for 4 months, 20 days for 6 months).

Hope this is useful!

[D-IFF_ident]

BEags,

Perhaps we can work 'capped actuals' because there will soon only be half-a-dozen or so aircrew to administer. Here's what the USAF does:

https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/perdiemrates.html

I doubt it would be possible to run the system proposed for the RAF, in the USAF - they'd need to hire a few thousand more blunties to do the paperwork.

:{

[markerboy]

Why is it that the folks at the coal face must continually bare the brunt of the high and mighty's career pushing. The system works as it is, so why change it. This seems to be apparent throughout our armed services. JPA, whilst conforming to the draw down in personnel, will actually produce more work for those already struggling with current manning levels.

I'm sure most of us can comment on sections being stretched to the limit already. Now add the admin of JPA, plus self accounting for all dets. When is it we are supposed to find the time to fix and fly the very things the Air Force is here to do?

Can you image the extra workload on an SH loadie? After having to watch what they spend for the 9 months they're away, they then have to do all the admin they haven't been able to do, BECAUSE they've been away doing the cr***y things HMG tell us to do.

Stinks of yet more penny pinching and stretching of what can only be described as the premier armed services in the world. Once again, we are being asked to do more with less. When will our illustrious leaders actualy see this for it is?? :mad:

Rant off!

[Mead Pusher]

I agree with some of what you say, Markerboy, but there are some aspects of JPA that will save time. No more waiting for 1771s to be returned with red pen just because you misspelt something, no more waiting for claims to be authorised (unless you get picked for audit), automatic payment of LSA and grant of POL so you won't have to check that your admin people put you on the system. Appraisals (when we start using JPA for reports) will be much simpler, and therefore quicker.

Also, you speak as if you won't be able to use JPA when detached - not true if you have any admin support, so there won't be a pile of admin tasks waiting for you on return (although I'm not 100% convinced that the access to JPA whilst deployed has really been thought through - I'll reserve judgement at the moment).

I agree that the actuals-not-rates thing will cause headaches, but JPA is not all bad. On the whole I think JPA is a good thing, although it will have its faults.

<submits fully expecting to cause a heated debate...>

[The Rocket]

Another little belter that was kept on the QT for as long as possible is the fact that as of the end of March, only days spent on "operations or op-focussed " detachments will count towards a DWR credit.

This means that all of the days you spend away on Flag, TLP, CQWI, etc..etc.. DO NOT COUNT FOR ANYTHING

SO in theory, people may be spending 6 months away each year on det, then return to a nice little DWR for 4-6 months.


Seriously now, how on God's earth are they expecting to retain personnel with working conditions like these?

[Roguedent]

I wonder if we should put a cap on the number of people pulling the Black and Yellow once this daft scheme comes in. I am surprised that anyone is defending the daftest scheme since King Olaf the Hairy ordered 20,000 Battle helmets with the horns on the inside. We are turning into Black adder. All our masters seem to be General Melchiat, helped out by Capt Darling.:\ This hair brained scheme just will not work for Detachments and down route crews. The problems it creates are too numerous. Flight safety for the crews will eventually come into play. The poster with the guy with the world on his back and the one that says don't take you personnel problems flying, well aren't we doing just that. I hope someone high and mighty reads this thread as we are creating a nightmare. The poor imprest holder down route on a 14hr minimum rest stop will struggle to get a good nights sleep, once he has dished out the cash, found a suitable restaurant, asked for 14 individual bills, etc... All that after the 2hr faff at ALL american bases. I joined for life initially, but already I am seriously considering jumping what seems a doomed ship. I don't think many people want to be in the situation of doing the job of 2 people with a lesser quality of life.

Rant over, by the way my point was Flight Safety!!:eek:

[FFP]

Roguedent,

If the system relies on the imprest holder to collect and chase up receipts, then yes, it will be a royal pain in the a$$. But if it's left to individuals to keep their own receipts and input their claims on JPA, then the workload will be no less for the imprest holder than it already is ? Give out the money, record it on the balance sheet, hand it back in at home base.

I know my first post gave a defence for the system, but I do feel that this is not the kind of crap we need to be worrying about down route. If a member of my crew loses a receipt, I don't want them worrying about their accountability and the chance of being investigated for fraud whilst operating on the next sector. But I'm afraid that is what's going to happen . . .

[Cambridge Crash]

I have learned from a (former) colleague working in Whitehall that those occupying service accommodation (Messes, quarters and 'lodgings') will now have to contribute towards the 'home to duty' costs. This friend cycles to/from MOD and is required to contributed one mile each way, each day, for the privalege of doing so. I suspect that recovery costs possible exceed the payment for the use of a bicycle. In the big world outside, even me in my Ivory tower can see that this is an absurdity...


CC

[Mead Pusher]

The Home to Duty Travel (HDT) allowances (according to the new guide) read as follows:

If you travel daily between a RWA ("home" to the lay folk) and your place of duty you may claim HDT (Public) if you live in public accommodation, or HDT (Private) if you live in private accommodation. The allowance is based on the actual distance you travel, up to a maximum of 50 miles per single journey, less a personal contribution of 1 mile per single journey for HDT (Public) and 9 miles per single journey for HDT (Private). Automated claims are paid via salary and manual claims should be submitted via the JPA Expenses Claim system. (JSP 752 Ch 4 Sect 13 refers)

So he won't actually be 'paying' a personal contribution, he will just receive an allowance for one mile less than he actually travels. Now, since I live in the Mess and walk to work in the morning I have no idea how this will impact on people getting allowances at the moment - any one like to assess this impact?

[OCCWMF]

Mead Pusher - shouldn't you be tending to the black market mead pipeline from Lindisfarne? Or are the monks delivering by boat now?:ok:

[Mead Pusher]

I'm looking to expand my market - and I'm branching into Welsh Whiskey! ;) :ok:

[OCCWMF]

No doubt it will have too many consonants in the name and be impossible to pronounce until you've had half the bottle!;) Get back to work!

[SALAD DODGER]

If it gets in the way of doing our job we should be prepared to HFOR.

I dont want to see a case where crew members are distracted from their primary duties by accounting admin.


On another note:
If we have ONE experienced Pilot, Nav, Eng etc leave the RAF because this is the final straw, or because he is a rate collector. (There is a guy on every Sqn who is either hard up or tight) THEN IT COSTS THE SERVICE MILLIONS.................NO SAVING.................NO SENSE...........

I don't think that I am over reacting, I can think of many good men that feel they are being pushed over the edge. Why have the blunties underestimated the ill feeling this is causing and the false economy.

[Climebear]

Another little belter that was kept on the QT for as long as possible is the fact that as of the end of March, only days spent on "operations or op-focussed " detachments will count towards a DWR credit.
This means that all of the days you spend away on Flag, TLP, CQWI, etc..etc.. DO NOT COUNT FOR ANYTHING
SO in theory, people may be spending 6 months away each year on det, then return to a nice little DWR for 4-6 months.
Seriously now, how on God's earth are they expecting to retain personnel with working conditions like these?


Rocket - this has always been the case, it is not a new JPAism.

For those not in the now about DWR credits. The are used when selecting Ground Trades personnel for NFU operational (and FI) detachments. They do not apply to officers and NCAircrew nor are they used for selecting ground trades for FU detachments.

[insty66]

"Originally Posted by The Rocket
Another little belter that was kept on the QT for as long as possible is the fact that as of the end of March, only days spent on "operations or op-focussed " detachments will count towards a DWR credit.
This means that all of the days you spend away on Flag, TLP, CQWI, etc..etc.. DO NOT COUNT FOR ANYTHING
SO in theory, people may be spending 6 months away each year on det, then return to a nice little DWR for 4-6 months.
Seriously now, how on God's earth are they expecting to retain personnel with working conditions like these?
Rocket - this has always been the case, it is not a new JPAism.
For those not in the now about DWR credits. The are used when selecting Ground Trades personnel for NFU operational (and FI) detachments. They do not apply to officers and NCAircrew nor are they used for selecting ground trades for FU detachments."


There is suprisingly a way around this :) but you must have good management who will back you to the hilt and as always have your facts straight. Should some one be "selected" for a DWR but has done more than the required for a freeze "90 in a 12 month perioc iirc) a polite conversation followed by a letter to the drafter should sort out and get you positive results. It has for a couple of people who worked for me. One of whom had 120 (63 operational) days in nine months but was still selected for a Falklands tour.:mad:

Couldn't do that quote thingy sorry for ugly layout

[comedyjock]

It appears to me that the people at the rear are saving pennies but losing millions. As more and more "good ideas" come in, the benefits of remaining in the Service doing a job I love are decreasing every year.

The hypocrisy of it all is baffling. We are expected to do what we are told, go where we are told and achieve the aim but not spend money in the process. I look at other Public services such as the NHS which despite injections of billions of pounds is running up huge debts and think that pound for pound this countrys armed forces give the best value for money.

Unfortunately the people at the top |(not necessarily in uniform) and the Treasury see UKAF as an easy target for savings. We have no proper voice with which to object or voice our concerns. The Prime Minister, despite warnings in the media continues to send more and more people away on Operations stretching already stretched resources but seems unwilling to fund these deployments.

I believe that the next 5 years are probably some of the most important years for the Armed Forces in recent memory. If not properly managed/funded/resourced, the Country could end up with a poorly equiped, under manned and badly supported military, unable to contribute to the world stability.

I know this is a thread about JPA but it is all related morale. Don't get me wrong I love my job but sometimes you feel like you are banging your head against a wall.

[truckiebloke]

[QUOTE=comedyjock]
If not properly managed/funded/resourced, the Country could end up with a poorly equiped, under manned and badly supported military, unable to contribute to the world stability.

Haven't we got that now??

[Theword]

My god, im amazed at the comments. Try working for a civi company there arnt any ive come accross that pay "Rates". The salary aid bad lads and if you think the Service owes you a living, get a life, and if you cant do that go and get a job outside.

You get a wage because you do a job, and enhanced wage because of the X factor, and flying pay for err doing you job. Now you want beer money too...get a life

[truckiebloke]

Try working for a civvy company that pays rates??

The civvy chefs in iraq are on far more than any serviceman out there....

The bodyguards are on stupid money a day, flown around by us lot, who are on a whole lot less.... i think we have a right to complain - we are constantly asked to do far more and so much is taken away.

[Theword]

i think you've made my point for me...

civi chefs et al, do get pay enhancements, which by the way is the equivalent of getting the X factor and flying pay and boarding school and just about err 100 or so allowances...food, well feed yourself, oh you dont you get the money back you pay out.....

Point made

[Theword]

not even close....just informed, let me guess now. Young, stupid, been in 5 seconds and wants to latch on to something to make him sound like one of the boys...

[mbga9pgf]

not even close....just informed, let me guess now. Young, stupid, been in 5 seconds and wants to latch on to something to make him sound like one of the boys...


Well, from a response like that, I would say you are a troll, and probably either have the mental age on your profile, or are possibly a Journo dredging the bottom, as usual, for a story. Get a life. Some of us here are spending significant time away from home, in the name of keeping fuel prices down for a socialist government. And you are begrudging us a few quid to go out for a meal on the odd occasion we get a decent route, which as a matter of fact, usually happens once a year. Yes we are in the forces, yes I am proud to serve my country. However, a little gratitude wouldnt go amiss. Instead, this government choose to P*ss 200 million a year up the wall on advertising, and then go on to begrudge us decent kit and a few bob to spend whilst downroute.

[EESDL]

I'm paid civvy rates and it's great - so what's your point again??????
Oh, and they also pay a bonus if you work hard.......
ie, rewarded for going the extra mile........
sound familiar? not if you're in the Forces....
so wind you neck in
(ps, suggest you change jobs because the one you're in now seems to have turned you into a brainless fool)

[mbga9pgf]

A little more of what I am talking about

Tax abuser of the week

Chief Executive
Wolverhampton City Council
West Midlands
£150,000
We're seeking an exceptional leader with the energy and vision to help us achieve four stars and build our reputation as one of the UK's most dynamic and progressive cities.

tax abuser of the week

Chief Executive
Birmingham City Council
West Midlands
£195k
Chief Executive is required.

Quango abuser of the week

Appointment of Chief Executive
BECTA
Midlands
£150,000
The Chair of Becta, Andrew Pinder, and the Department of Education and Skills are seeking to appoint a successor to Owen Lynch who is stepping down as Chief Executive.



Head of ICT, Peterborough City Council £60,000 - £73,000
Head of Customer Services, Peterborough City Council £60,000 - £73,000
Head of Strategic Property, Peterborough City Council, £60,000 - £73,000
Head of Human Resources, Peterborough City Council, £60,000 - £73,000
City Centre Director, Peterborough City Council, £55,000

Most pointless job of the week

Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses
Veredus
West London
£120k
You'll: - champion the interests of victims and witnesses - advise the Government on how they should be supported - drive change and modernisation through the criminal justice system

Other tax abusers

Strategic Director - Children and Young People
Nottinghamshire County Council
Nottinghamshire
Circa £125,000 pa
We need now is an ambitious and determined professional to join our strategic directorate team and bring vision, make the decisions that matter, and provide the leadership that counts.

Corporate Director - Adult & Community Services
Durham County Council
Durham
£90k - £120k
It's a big job, covering adult social care and health, culture and leisure, adult learning and community safety. You would also work closely with our new Chief Executive on the overall strategic direction of the Council.

Director of Education and Children's Services
Reading Borough Council
Berkshire
£109,500 plus benefits
An experienced senior manager with strategic vision and exemplary leadership skills, you must have a strong track record within a multi-service organisation. You should also be able to build strong partnerships both internally and externally.

Lancashire
£107,000
Your main task will be to plan and oversee strategy in a specific programme area. The programme area which you occupy may well not relate to your existing professional background.

Chief Executive
Wigan and Leigh Housing
Greater Manchester
c.£100k plus benefits
At a more strategic level you will be a pivotal member of the wider, mutually supportive and joined-up leadership of the borough; benefiting all our citizens and contributing to the Council's 'excellent' performance rating.

Chief Executive
Tribal Executive Resourcing
Gloucestershire
£100K
We are now seeking an inspirational leader to address these, balancing conservation with urban growth and enabling us to provide the best possible services across the town.



OH yeah, thats right, lets strip the boys of a few bob, making the job of the imprest holder infinitely more difficult, take a big chunk out of morale, to feed the mouths of the oxygen-wasters listed above.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[BEagle]

Theturd - another alias for Southside, Vechcooktak, or whatever the polymorphic pratt sea scout is calling himself now....?

[Theword]

mbga9pgf (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=79739) vbmenu_register("postmenu_2366758", true);

so all the jobs your clearly qualified for?

i think were getting away from the point.

[mbga9pgf]

Actually looks as if the poor lad has had one too many shandies down the local with his dreary banker mates down Baker Street..

The whole point of joining the forces for many is NOT the salary you idiot, its the community, the pride and the standard of living provided by the forces. We now find all of this attacked left, right and centre by bean-counters and their completely undepoyable ilk. Get rid I say. Together with PAYD. The day an Officer has to pay for individual slices of bread and butter is the day I up and leave. Its not about the salary. Its about the little things. Get rid of the little things and you are right, you might as well just work for a civvie company.

I dare say the vast majority of individuals I work with would actually find those jobs beneath them. The strongest point of our armed forces has always been its people, I dare say that any experienced officer having been in a command role would be a likely joe for such jobs. My point is, why would you want to be part of something that is so non-descript and an obvious waste of public funds? Ask yourself, will the government stop to function, or in fact suffer as a result of not having the above posts? I very much doubt it.

[Theword]

Its not about the salary, god listen to yourself.....you were just complaining that you couldnt make money out of the allowance package... Over the past 2 decades there have been alot of changes, and more to come......

Ive got mates that have left and yes there are some sweet deals but they are few and far between, enjoy your time in and the wage it isnt bad, and yes theres always someone who earns more, or has a better package but the grass isnt always greener....

good luck on what ever you choose to do

[The Rocket]

Insty66,

You're quite right, and I have known that happen on more than one occasaion, where the Boss and the Sengo/Jengo has stood up for one of the troops and argued the case, even for detachments planned for the future that would take the person in question over the 90 day watershed. What they have decided now however, is that these days away do not count whatsoever, and even if you have spent 200 days away from your parent unit in a year, unless this was on a DWR, it counts for s**t, and you can expect yourself to be receiving an unwelcome signal sometime shortly.

Climebear,

I can assure you it is completely new, as we were told it was to remain a secret until it was leaked/published on Waddington's website sometime later that week. As you know, once airmen had accrued 90+ days OOA they remained frozen in place on the DWR list in a rolling year, until they dropped below that 90 day point upon which, they would begin to travel to the top of the list again. As I have previously stated, this will no longer happen, and they will be back to the top of that list as soon as we have completed the cycle of available manpower.

I know that many people are getting stiffed to go on DWR's on a regular basis, as aircrew we do 5 week stints roughly every year at MPA, and I have seen one Fairy Sgt's face there for 3 out of the last 4 trips I have done, but there are many who do 120+ days out of the country on other detachments, for example the OEU's, and accumulated squadron dets, who will now have a cheeky 4 month break to worry about, on top of all the rest of the days away they are expected to do. Because unless I read the signal incorrectly, they are not planning to cut back on any of the present commitments in the near future.

It frustrates me, as I'm sure it does everybody here, to watch our most capable and experienced engineers being forced out of the door to, lets face it, better working conditions and salaries, by the faceless, penny-pinching bureaucrats.:mad:

And with that, I'll breathe in:eek:

[insty66]

Rocket
Please check your PMs
thanks

[Climebear]

The Rocket

You are talking about 2 entirely different things here. The current and long standing DWR arrangement only counts operational deployments or training for operations and discounts other time away such as AT or indeed Red Flags. I know this because I used to administer it in a former life. The PACMIS system at PMA has been developed to produce such a merit order (starting with those who have never done a qualifying detachment - in which case the list is sported by their attestation date - the those who have - in which case the list is sorted by the date that he/she last returned from a qualifying detachment or achieved a DWR credit). The problem with some of the aircraft technicians who turned over quickly in FI was the qualification and currency requirements for the posts. If the post demands someone who is current on F3 (or CH47 or Sea King) then that significantly limits the pool from which a drafter can select. One assumes that everyone else in the pool (that is getting smaller for F3 technicians) is also doing the same level of non-qualifying days detachment elsewhere. The changes coming will not change that.

Here is the change. JPA is intended to be as close to a Commercial Off The Shelf package as possible to save costs. Believe it or not, the RAF has 2 very good personnel management tools (PACMIS for ground trades and the more modern OCMS for officers and NCA). These have been continually developed and tailored to meet the Service's need. Now the other 2 Services do not run a DWR system where NFU detachments are manned centrally from NMA/APC and the drafters try to be fair to the individual (sometimes the system is too fair to the individual - remember Saif Sarea where we sent lots of people to the middle east to train them how to fight in the desert? As the people who went gained DWR credits, when we came to actually go and do the fighting in TELIC1 those people were near the bottom of the list so many didn't deploy - of course the usual suspects did (FU personnel, Chef/Stewards, MTDs and EOD Armourers etc).

As the other Services (and, indeed, the NCA/officer element the RAF) don't have a DWR system it was not deemed worthwhile tailoring the JPA package to do what DWR currently does so the result will be a system that is less capable (in this respect) than the one it replaces.

[Roguedent]

Why all the fishing mate, people will bite on this subject as it is very close to their hearts. Now run along like the child you are. All we need now is the firemen to strike again over PAY AND CONDITIONS and we will have to cover that too. Lets really push for this Union of sorts (another thread), so we can strike. Bring in national service, so all the plebs can see how great the forces have become. By the way THETURD, I joined to fly and be a part of the community which is the RAF. Yes 35K is nice, but I could be earning more in civvie street, but I don't want to. I want to stay in the RAF, but there comes a time when you can no longer afford to stay in. THe quality of life is getting better and better in civvie street and the more we reduce the quality of life in the services, the more people will leave. By the way THETURD the X factor is rubbish at the moment, and thats not the TV program. The last time some high powered bloke came for a Q&A on the X factor he left with more un-answered questions and complaints than prime minisiters questions.

rant off.. :mad:

[L1A2 discharged]

When I joined, back in the late 1970s we had many things ... A real mission, 4 leave warrants, public support, etc etc etc. The continual erosion of T&C, abuse of trust from PMA, special selection for short notice deployments due to passing courses others fail in their efforts to avoid such things etc etc has finally broken my spirit.

I await the next tranche of redundancies with hope, not expectation but will depart from the uniform anyway. Quality of life far outweighs any of the reasons for remaining.

Allegedly CAS is 'concerned' at the outflow rate among the engineering fraternity, hopefully this thread will be on his reading list next week.

[LFFC]

It really doesn't seem long ago when there was a huge amount of soul searching and breast beating about "push factors" and "pull factors". Some very senior officers seemed to take it all SO seriously and put a lot of effort into making changes - and letting us know about them.

What I find so incredible is just how quickly all of that seems to have been forgotten!

[The Rocket]

Climebear,

The current and long standing DWR arrangement only counts operational deployments or training for operations and discounts other time away such as AT or indeed Red Flags

Not true in the slightest. For a blatent example to debunk your theory, look to the FJWOEU, or 17(R)

Both of these units spent an average of 4-6 months per year on planned dets away from base. Most in the USA, some in places such as Leuchars, Lossie, Florennes etc...

These days away COUNT TOWARD THEIR 90 DAYS AWAY and I know personally of cases where groundcrew on these units have recieved DWR's for MPA, and have successfully been taken back off the list due to an impending 7 weeks in the USA. Are you seriously trying to suggest to me that these days do not count? They are not operational, nor training for op dets in any way shape or form.

I have been told by a very close friend that the groundcrew of these units have been taken to one side 'as it were' and informed that under the new rulings, their days at Nellis, China Lake, Tonopah etc, will no longer count toward DWR credits, and to inform their families accordingly.

As I have previously stated, we were told on our squadron to keep this a secret for as long as possible from the troops, due to the ill feeling that would be generated, and there are several copies of the letter from PMA now floating around the workplace with the sentence about non op dets no longer counting for anything, highlighted.

With respect Climebear, do you have recent experience of the DWR system, and the recent changes to it? Have you seen the signal or letter? Have you been called into a management briefing and told to keep the changes under your hat?

[Climebear]

With respect Climebear, do you have recent experience of the DWR system, and the recent changes to it? Have you seen the signal or letter? Have you been called into a management briefing and told to keep the changes under your hat?

Fraod not Rocket - my knowledge is 2 years old - but I was anticipating a reduction in the functionality of the system due to JPA. I take it that you have been to such a briefing in confidence - system works then!

[The Rocket]

It was only confidential for as long as it took for the information to be plastered over the intranet, and then obviously there was no need for it to be kept secret anymore.

It seems they were absolutely correct in the assumption that there would be a lot of ill feeling. Morale seems to be lower than I have seen it in quite some time.

I trust Southside will pop his 12 year old head up shortly to tell us how high morale currently is in the FAA:rolleyes:

[dessert_flyer]

There seems to be a lot of different opinions on how JPA is going to work, from, "it will only be applied to 1771's" to, "we wont be able to move for JPA". Does anyone actually know how it is going to come into service and what parts of the rates/allowances it is really going to effect. More to the point do the scriblys know what is going to happen. I do feel that it would be helpful to us all if there was someone who did know how it will effect us all, instead of rumour control going mad, (and yes i know this is a rumour site) but some sound and acurate information would be very helpful, (something you rarely obtain from handbrake house)

[southside]

Here I am. Not sure about the FAA in broader terms but life in the Lynx fleet is pretty good. Looking forward to the new aircraft coming into service this year. Bold/Blue/Loyal whatsitsface exercise is shaping up (not sure if I'll be on it this year) but some of the boys n girls are looking forward to it....(even though its being infiltrated by the Merlin fleet who cant go to sea because the salt water may damage the aircraft...but they can suddenly find enough money for an exercise in Scandanavia...funny old thing !) Lots of weapons firings taking place this month so that should be good (a day without engaging a weapon is a day wasted)....Lots of good Operations happening at the moment...Congratulations must be extended to Southampton flight...well done fellas...a brilliant effort. On the social front there is a big big social taking place later in the month with the entire Lynx fleet celebrating some sort of event, be it 5000 Hrs, 4000 Hrs or even one bloke celebrating 1000 hrs.... (night FFS). As for people moaning and manking....not had any eveidence of that recently. There is one bloke who stuck his PVR in but thats cos he was offered a job......mind you, one officer out of a fleet of over 200 isn't bad. ...Yep, life in the Larry fleet is pretty good ta. Anyone who thinks their fleet is a crock of pooo, is more than welcome to come and join us.

[Biggus]

Southside,

And the point of your comment, with reference to JPA, other than to confirm your reputation for being a total ar*e, was?


P.S Southampton flight did their job, and did it well, no more or less! Many/most of the military (even the FAA) do their job well day in and day out without the glamour of press coverage!!

[Mead Pusher]

Dessert Flyer,

I am on a Unit Change Team for JPA, so I have as good an idea as most people on how it will affect us all. If I posted all I know in one go then I'd be here a while (and you'd all be bored before you'd read even a bit of it)!

Reference allowances in particular, just about every allowance will be affected as we move to a Joint allowance system. Most allowances will be claimed through JPA, either by using a desktop intranet PC or by calling the JPAC (call centre) if you don't have access to a PC. On detachment the admin staff will have access to JPA, but I'm not sure how access will physically work - whether you go to a terminal and use it yourself or whether you get the admin people to do it for you (not even sure that they can do that). The new guide to allowances should be out in your unit, so have a look at that for some guidance.

Happy to answer any questions you might have about JPA - just post them here!

[The Rocket]

Do you think that the detachment access will work as brilliantly as the LITS detachment access? :hmm:

That is to say it will be nigh on impossible to get on the server, and everything will revert to being done hard copy, with an enormous backlog to clear up on your RTB:ugh:

[Mead Pusher]

Rocket,

The plan is that if comms go down between the detachment JPA terminals and the UK then everything will be stored on the computers until the connection is restored and then the JPA mainframe will be updated. This should all happen automatically with no hard copy system needed.

That's what they tell us, anyway!

[Pontius Navigator]

20 March is the Go day.

OTOH I am told that JPA stands for July, possibly August.

We get trained Wednesday. That will be good as we don't get a computer until Wednesday week.

[Ray Dahvectac]

... get the admin people to do it for you (not even sure that they can do that)...

The cynic would say that they haven't been able to up until now. :hmm:

Edit: Speeling eroor.

[comedyjock]

Southside

What planet are you on?

The Lynx community is the same as everybody else, undermanned and over worked.

The upgrade is only a stop gap until F Lynx comes along and doesn't fix the majority of problems there are now.

There is no money for extra activities and yes Blue Game will be good but the rest of the year will be the same with not great serviceability and too many tasks.

Perhaps you have only been flying for 2 days but wake up and smell the coffee (if there is any left)...

[Mead Pusher]

Ok, for the people who want more information on JPA. As long as you have intranet access then this link should take you to the FAQ on the AFPAA site.

http://www.ipublish.dii.r.mil.uk/nlapps/docs/default.asp?fid=706

Hope this is useful!

[L J R]

Nice work Mead Puher. Hope you are as authoritative as you seem. Keep us Mil PPRUNers informed!!

Lets not shoot the messanger.....

[500days2do]

A quick scan of the jobsites will tell you that JPA will be way behind schedule...at present the company that is charged with implimenting its hardwear and softwear is desperately looking for qualified and capable staff. I look forward to the announcement that delays the kickoff ...20 March 2006 I believe..as 2007 is far more realistic...just imagine the scene...8ish am on the 20th...we all log on to the expected crash.

5d2d

[dessert_flyer]

Thanks for the help Mead Pusher and will look out for more posts as d-day comes closer. Spoke to one of our admin staff a couple of days ago and was told that how FSI'S will be run has not been decided. This is generally due to the fact that only four stations , Brize, Lyneham, Kinloss and Benson use a lot of FSI's. Also when it comes to terminals on overseas detatchments, the extra cost of using internet lines is prohibitive in cost, (similar to LITS). I hope you can clarify some of this,
Tks D-F

[Grimweasel]

A new(er) document is now available to HR Admin Staff, called " Guide to Pay and Charges"
This will tell you about Continuous Career Basic Pay (which I believe Flying PAy will come under)
As alluded to, if you come out of a flying post, after 6 years with out revisiting a flying job for a min of 91 days, your flying pay will cease.

Just find an OOA det with flying post attched every 6 years and you'll keep the pay is what it looks like!

An interesting point is that if you are medically downgraded due to non-service reasons (ie playing rugby for local side at weekend, break arm etc) then they will stop your Specialist Pay and entitlement to reserve bands immediatley! The service test is " Was the Med Downgrade due to reasons within the individual's control?"

Yes / No

If the service was at fault then your SP will continue for 18 months to allow treatment etc.If after 18 months and u have not been upgraded then you will go onto the reserve band 3 years. (ie 75%,50%,25% of SP decreasing)

Also ALL Spec. Pay posts will be reviewed yearly to check they still qualify. If they do not, the next person coming into that post will not be eligible for SP!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Grimweasel

<<As alluded to, if you come out of a flying post, after 6 years with out revisiting a flying job for a min of 91 days, your flying pay will cease>>

Round and round goes the f*ck*ng big wheel in and out . . .

Back in the late '80s flying pay was to cease after a certain period of no flying. 16 plus years later they still haven't sorted out what a flying job is, as mentioned here on Pprune the FCs at Waddo draw flight pay flight or not.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Hi Gang;

The six year thing sounds remarkably similar to now.....

I don't suppose anyone has saw sense yet with the FSI '''''''admin-all-those-individual-receipts-for-a-10-man-crew-on a long-route/det''''''''' yet???:{

Damn, I wish I could get a job with BA...bye bye pilots!!!:\

Later;
Regards to Most;
'J'Bloke:rolleyes:

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Damn, I wish I could get a job with BA...bye bye pilots!!!:\
Later;
Regards to Most;
'J'Bloke:rolleyes:

Come on in, the water's lovely. No receipts required either;)

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Hi there P-T;

Is the water lovely, despite the stewards???? Must be fun on a dinghy drill...:eek:

Seriously though, you don't know what a lucky escape you made....
Me, well, I've just got the red,white & blue blood....daft b*gger!!!:rolleyes:

Do they rib you for being GINGER!!!!!:8

I wonder how ATSY are going to get receipts for an actuals meal on a guarding nitestop. Not that I'm really bothered about our piggy plods!!!

Send the Sqn a postcard or ten...P-T. They deserve it!!!:}

Regards;
'J' Bloke.

[oldfella]

Thanks for the gen Mead Pusher.

Just about to go on det. 4 weeks 3 locations, 2 countries, 30 guys. No admin backup, no intranet access. It's easy at the moment with a FSI and a DSI. You could double the number of guys and the time and it would still be easy. Come the arrival of JPA - who knows. How do the guys fund themselves? Phone it all through may be an answer but with up to 8 hours time difference the window available may be short. Scheduling phone time may be awkward. Paying for the calls from a civilian net should be interesting. Individual unit credit/debit cards should really speed things up - I think not. Limited funds credit/debit cards should make paying some bills interesting.

Never mind, the change from a working system to JPA will save money for the Treasury!!!!!