El Al passenger flies with gun to New York

[MarkD]

<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/01/29/News/News.42473.html" target="_blank">Jerusalem Post</a>

[Bigpants]

Amazing but apparently true, good post! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Shaker One]

There are holes in airport security you could drive a bus through. Staffed by bored personnel who at the end of the day don't have to get on the aircraft anyway.

My wife was stopped recently at a major European gateway for an international flight when knives and other cutlery showed up on the screen. We looked puzzled at each other and proferred the hand luggage in their direction. Following a token shuffle around, they proclaimed it must have been 'someone else's bag'! At the other end we discovered to our amazement the cutlery (including 3 knives) hiding in a separate zipped part of the bag, last used on a camping trip in Australia 18 months ago!

This is from security that has confiscated an FAs nailclippers at some point during the last few months!

[B2N2]

Yeah yeah,my brother,my sister,my mother...everybody got a story about security.... .Some mistakes are bigger than other though..... .But when was the last time an Israeli hijacked an EL-AL flight...?. .Some people at Ben-Gurion are gonna be sweeping the parkinglot.EL-Al is not kind with f@#k-ups.

[Capt PPRuNe]

I think what this shows is that their 'profiling' of pax before check-in works. The pax concerned were not considered a risk and proved to be so. In fact they were so honest that they eventually came forward and admitted their mistakes.

It does show that while X-raying and searching are only a part of the solution even the best can miss the obvious. The governments that are prepared to put their money where their mouths are and set up a proper profiling system are the ones that will have the best statistics in the long run.

Those that rely on politicians who pander the newsroom luvvies with their kneejerk proposal soundbites are the ones that will have their security exposed, embarrased and more importantly breached by the fanatics.

[exeng]

Couldn't agree more Capt'.

[[email protected]]

Hmmmm:

Capt. Fyne suggests that this incident shows profiling works.

I would suggest it does no such thing. As it happens, this passenger -- like the overwhealming majority of passengers -- had no evil intent. But since most passengers are benign, the fact that this incident didn't result in a shoot-out in flight is meaningless.

Further, I would contend that this incident *really* shows that profiling is effectively pointless: the problem is not whether you can get a weapon on board, but whether you would use one if you had a weapon!

Malc.

[MarkD]

Captain P

While I'm terrified of being seeing to disagree, but surely the danger was not *who* was carrying the weapon but that an unauthorised, undocumented weapon got on board, no matter who was carrying it. If the weapon fell into the wrong hands while on board... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ORAC]

Absolutely! I can just see those terrorists going through everybody's bags looking for a gun whilst holding them off with a plastic knife.

Sneaky those terrorists - and clairvoyant too.

[Wino]

You can't keep weapons out of jails where the prisoners have no rights. You will never keep em all off of aircraft either.

Get over it

Cheers. .Wino

[railwaysengineer]

Sorry, but that story comes from the man himself. Telling this to his embassy is no proof. I´m not able to believe this man. Perhaps he feels good now to be named in the papers once in a life time . . .

[Capt PPRuNe]

Malc, that is exactly the point of profiling. It has nothing to do with weapons. It is to do with preventing someone who would use a weapon, whether they have one or not, from getting on board in the first place. The events of 9/11 show that it didn't take anything more sophisticated than box cutters to cause the tragedy. The press are full of shock horror stories put out by the news luvvies as their undercover reporters smuggle combs and knitting needles on the local shuttle.

As with everything since then we have seen kneejerk, cosmetic security put in place and they are still arguing about the cost of it while it is continually being proven to be of limited use by the press. For too long airlines and governemnts have paid lip service to proper security whilst the beancounters hamstring those that want to do anything that will be of use.

It is not what you allow on board but who you allow on board that is the key to proper security.

[CrashDive]

I've said it before and I'll say (shout) it again - <a href="http://www.imagingauto.com/bg.htm" target="_blank">BOARDERGUARD !!!</a>

E.g. a colleague of mine recently ran a trial using a BG unit, at the check-in desk of an airport in a Caribbean country ( renowned for having lots of human 'drug mules' ). When the check-in for the flight to London opened, almost unbelievably, the very first passport that was presented and analysed by the BG unit turned out to be a forgery ! - I kid you not - The pax was then led away by the 'authorities' for a chat........ and it then transpired that the flight most unusually suffered 60 no-shows - now I wonder why that was, uhm ?!

Indeed I mentioned this a while back, see: <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017000&p=" target="_blank">Drugs bust at Gatwick</a>

UK Gov are supposed to be funding a trial (valued at £5m) courtesy of Qinetiq (the commercial division of DERA) - and the sooner the better.

Yours truly has but a lot of work into the proof of concept of this technology and it's a great bit of kit, it's very versatile, and can be integrated into numerous other systems too - e.g. you can run you Res/Check-in system in parallel on it, and / or have it feed data to the 'security services' for profiling !

For some other threads where I've covered this equipment, see also: <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016403&p=" target="_blank">BALPA say: Anti-terrorist cockpit doors 'dangerous'</a> and <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016107&p=" target="_blank">BA Pilots to have stun Guns !!!!!!!!</a>

Ps. Some wag came on here the other day with a 'handle' very similar to mine (they were using ' CashDrive' ) and made a post about the security procedures being used at a certain UK airline. I'd just like to set the record straight and point out that the post in question, now living in the Administration forum, was NOT made by me !

[ShotOne]

I take your point about profiling, Capt pprune but if someone manages to take a handgun on board an aircraft it can hardly be represented as a victory for security procedures. This is still a very major screw-up!

Profiling has its place but must be backed up even for "safe" passengers. This should be a warning against relying too heavily on this one line of defence.

[ExSimGuy]

mmmmm - "profiling"?

I was flying from a UK airport to the US a couple of months ago on a "staff" ticket. So I politely hung back to let the fare-paying SLF board and I joined the rear of the queue.

All of the pax were having their carry-ons visually checked, but when I got to the gate (not late) I was basically asked "Do you have anyting that you shouldn't in your carry-on?", "Did you buy anything other than from the shops?", and was waved through.

Was that because I was mentally "profiled" as "staff or family"? I wasn't too happy about that.

As has been said before - it's gonna be practically impossible to stop a determined person geting on a flight. Sorry, but no real solution to offer - except "best awareness" by all involved.

Fly safe Brothers & Sisters

Stu

[LevelFive]

Capt PPRuNe, Please tell me how profiling would keep someone like Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber, from boarding an aircraft or working as a baggage handler, etc?

[Tripower455]

LevelFive, The baggage handlers are "trusted" employees........Please don't insult them.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Unless you've been through El Al security you wouldn't know what I mean LevelFive. As far as I am aware there was intelligence on McVeigh but then he was one of those who didn't want to put himself at risk. We are talking about terrorists who would try to board an aircraft with the intention of taking unlawful control. Unless you've seen profiling in action you may not appreciate the concept.

I am not saying that profiling should be taken as a stand alone solution but in conjunction with other more recognisable methods. It is certainly better than the farce that is going on in many airports at the moment, especially in the USA which almost totally rely on metal detection and x-rays. Some people expect the security to be 100% foolproof but it never can be so we rely on several sophisticated layers and not the political whims of sound-bite seekers.

[B Sousa]

As a Lowly Sling Wing Driver, I certainly can only speak about the Big Guys Aircraft, as SLF or Law Enforcement.. .IN My Humble Opinion and from what I have seen since 9/11 its all a big bandage on the problem. The US has all kinds of Military folks running around in camo uniforms with heavy artillery and couldnt profile a child molester if they had a confession. Those other folks who have been watching the Xray machine since Madam Curie was a kid MAY SOON be Federal Employees. Which means they will be very similar to an Air Force ICBM. 1. Wont Work 2. Cant be Fired. True Law Enforcement that I have seen lately has been some Fed Agents monitoring folks entering the U.S from some other country. Of course by then it was too late for problematic types, but just maybe it will keep them from entering the country.. .Someone above mentioned catching them via Passport Control. A great start if they have the technology available AND readily share information. I know for a fact if Information goes via INTERPOL, it might as well go by Carrier Pigeon.

[[email protected]]

Cap'n:

I think you missed the point I tried to raise. I'm not saying that profiling isn't a useful tool, but your suggestion was that this incident showed that it worked. This incident does not do that. At all. Not even a little bit.

An example: if all security at LHR spontaneously decided to wave everyone through one day, it is extremely likely that nothing bad would happen. Yet only a fool would conclude that the security was *therefore* unecessary.

What profiling *is* is a tool to allow security to focus on the most likely risk sources, so as to minimize the invasiveness of security to everyone else. But that fact that someone escapes the spotlight thrown by a profile does not, ever, show that the someone is A Good Guy...

Bluntly, profiling is _most_ useful when you have a pretty good idea of the characteristics of your enemy. But it doesn't do anything for, say, the bitter ex-employee (think USAir and FedEx), *because* that ex-employee would (might) show a positive Good Guy profile.

Think about this: El Al has a few days before and a couple of hours on the day of the flight to develop a profile. Someone like MI5, the FBI or the Defense Departments' Defense Security Agency has months to work on background checks for security clearances (positive vetting). Yet espionage happens, therefore clearances aren't certainties, therefore profiling isn't reliable (actually, it's reliably going to fail).

As I said before, profiling can be helpful as a tool, but please don't presume that the Israeli model is portable elsewhere. (Like it or not, El Al considers Jewish folk to be lower risk than Bosnians, etc. -- and they're probably right in their little microcosm, but that's damn all use at, say, JFK or LHR for everyone else).

Malc.

[AeroBoero]

Er.... .Maybe that's why El Al still uses armed security officers (or Sky Marshals as you prefer) in every flight? In case the profiling and x-rays and all other things fail?

I can't think of what would happen if the guy tried to use the weapon in flight.

AB

[LevelFive]

I’m not aware of any intelligence on Timothy McVeigh before the Oklahoma City bombing that showed him to be a security risk.

There is no evidence that McVeigh ever belonged to any extremist groups. His only known affiliations were as a registered Republican and as a member of the National Rifle Association.

The facts show that before entering the Army he worked as security guard. While in the Army he was promoted to corporal, sergeant, then platoon leader. After leaving the Army he returned to working as security guard. Don’t take my word for it. Look it up yourself. Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, was a security guard. . . . .If you believe profiling is the way to go, maybe we should be profiling security guards. . . . .Security guards like McVeigh don’t have to be willing to die for a cause to be a risk. All they need do is open the door for those who are.

El Al uses a system much like the proposed “Trusted Passenger” ID card to speed up the security screening process. These “Trusted Passengers” are given just a cursory check. Some of them may accidentally bring a firearm onboard like this man did. Do you think terrorists see a weakness here? It looks to me like their best chance of getting a weapon onboard would be with one of those trusted passenger ID cards.

I know profiling very well. I’m singled out from other “Trusted” employees every time I come to work. I’m searched for weapons, toenail clippers, tweezers, ect, because I’m a pilot. Your assumption that profiling would be effective assumes a level of logic that’s just not present here. When a disgruntled airport worker brought a gun onboard a flight in California and shot the pilots to death the government’s response was to make pilots go through security screening. Airport workers were still allowed to come in the backdoor with lord knows what. This is life Through the Looking Glass.

[whatshouldiuse]

Captain;

. .You state that security at most U.S airports is a farce and very little profiling. Form personal experience, I must disagree. If you want to experience your own little slice of hell, may I suggest you follow the these criteria:

1) Buy an Internet Special Ticket on Wednesday and look forward to the search on Saturday.

2) Buy a one-way ticket and prepare to arrive 3 hours early for your flight and follow instructions in #1.

3) Buy a one-way ticket with cash at the airport and be sure to wear lose fitting clothing because most of it is coming off during your upcoming search. Add 1 additional hour to #2.

4) Look in anyway like a non-U.S citizen and follow the instructions in #2.

. .Sad, but true. Effective, who knows. Fair, not exactly. Profiling, certainly.

. .Whatshouldiuse

[Orca strait]

Profiling is as old as time and is an inherent part of our natural skills for survival. We have modern day detectives that specialize in the science of profiling; does that make them racist? Absolutely not.

The press has everyone in a tizzy over profiling because they keep slipping the word racial in front of it, and the public in their quest to understand complicated issues in 9 seconds or less have reduced a modern day science into a farcical racial mud slinging contest. Profiling is multi-faceted and is not based on how an individual looks or walks. It is supposed to be based on multiple criteria with things such as how and when an airline ticket is purchased, what are the travel habits, how is the documentation, how do they respond to questioning etc.

Unfortunately our single tier approach to airport security has come to depend on single answer issues. i.e. Ticket purchased full fare, one day prior for one way trip, holder of ticket is Airline Captain on duty just arrived from an operating flight and now must deadhead… Yikes! He fits the profile according to the ticket; search him (don’t bother checking his I.D. etc…).

The Israeli’s have this one right. If we are going to base airline security solely on eliminating all objects that can be used as some form of weapon in an aircraft; we’re doomed, as this approach is un-achievable.. . -----------------------------------------

[Orca strait]

Fresh off the press, an article in the Intenational Herald Tribune...

<a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/46839.html" target="_blank">Flyer's Private Lives Face New Screening</a>

[Rollingthunder]

"These “Trusted Passengers” are given just a cursory check. Some of them may accidentally bring a firearm onboard like this man did."

Someone who doesn't know where his gun is, at all times. Yeah, I trust him. The moron.

That said, El Al is on the right track.

If you want good security, you select, you train, you pay decently. You have a multi-layered system. You check out the pax in various ways, you check-out airport employees, you secure the airport and you ensure the aircraft are security checked regularly.

Complacency will always be the enemy and the downfall and is usually all too evident.

[Capt PPRuNe]

whatshouldiuse, what you have posted is exactly what I mean by a farce. All that effort based solely on the fact of where, when or how the ticket was purchased.

The delays and inconvenience caused by this sole method of searching everyone without any form of profiling for the sake of political correctness which then causes massive delays and hold ups because grandma Jones has to take her shoes off and open her bag to have her nail clippers confiscated.

I have been through US security since Sept 11th, as crew, in uniform and although the people at security were efficient and polite, even apologetic, it was obvious that the exercise was more than just a bit cosmetic. It is the stories coming from other crew about the outrageously idiotic actions of some security personnel, without any logic applied to the situation that is the main reason I am condemning the present system of only stopping weapons and not the users of them from boarding.

Without wanting to get this thread way off course, with regard to Timothy McVeigh, maybe I am getting my wires crossed but I did see a programme on some fo the possible intelligence failures but it may have been about the search for him after the attack and not before. Besides, he did not try to do what the Al Quaida terrorists did and so is not necessarily relevant. If there was proper and well trained profilers ti si possible that they may have let someone like him slip through and that is where the second line of defence would have hopefully taken effect. The discovery of explosives or weapons.

I am not saying that profiling is the be all and end all but should certainly play a much more prominent role in an overall solution instead of the current reliance on X-ray machines and metal detectors. Nothing will be 100% effective against terrorists unless you shut down aviation and then you have allowed them win.

[B Sousa]

Someone update us on the pilot who got hooked up for making a comment while going through Security. It happened a couple weeks ago in the U.S. and now all is quiet.. .What little I did hear about the incident leads me to believe he could walk out of this mess with a big paycheck......... .Comments??

[LevelFive]

No. No big paycheck. In fact, no paycheck at all.

<a href="http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/01/30/local_news/PILOT30.htm" target="_blank">Unions blame security problems in firing of pilot after confrontation</a>

[B Sousa]

Interesting Article, thanks. But dont jump just yet......There are plenty of Lawyers sitting on the fence to take this case to Trial, and for sure there are more than enough pissed off travelers to sit on a jury..... .Airlines will fire anyone at the drop of the hat as they have a pool of kids just peeing their pants to wear ray bans and have all them stripes. It also makes them look like they are doing "the right thing". Based on what I see in Airline Security I hope this Pilot shoves it hard up their backsides.. .The fat lady hasnt sung yet.

[LevelFive]

You’re right. I’m sure ALPA lawyers will get him his job back, back pay and more.

Back to the gun on El Al. I’m sure El Al is very good a detecting terrorists. The old adage “it takes one to know one” comes to mind. The nation that now denounces terrorism used it very effectively themselves. The terrorist actions of the <a href="http://etzel.org.il/english/" target="_blank">Irgun</a> go forgotten by many these days. However, the effectiveness and the results they achieved are not lost on today’s terrorists. They see it as a lesson in how to achieve their goals. Now every Arab male between 16 and 60 represents a potential terrorist to them. They spend vast amounts of money on security because they have to. Yesterday’s terrorists are today’s government politicians and they are on the other side of the circle. The circle of “Live by the sword. Die by the sword.” Now they desperately try to keep themselves from being blown up. Strange how history keeps repeating itself.

Profiling separates a group. It treats them as suspects. The more they are subjected to this sort of hostile treatment, the more they see those doing it as the enemy. Hostility is now spread throughout the group, not just the radical fringe. It takes you further away from a place where people can coexist peacefully. Think of the outcry if the British had used profiling to deal with the Irgun. It would have been denounced as anti-Semitism. But it’s okay for El Al to use against Arabs! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I have seen enough of El Al to know that I don’t want to live in a world like that. I certainly wouldn’t point to them as an example of how things should be. What a world. When terrorists can create a nation and then denounce terrorism I have to wonder if even they believe their means justified their ends. No. I think they are hypocrites.

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: LevelFive ]</p>

[wes_wall]

Sorry, but I cannot agree with sheltering the USAir pilot. He started an argument he should not have, and one which he cannot possible win. At security, if you have a problem, call for a supervisor. Bit your tongue until then.

[JJflyer]

ElAl flight originating from Israel. Last company and country I thought this would happen. DUH.

[Tripower455]

[quote]Sorry, but I cannot agree with sheltering the USAir pilot. He started an argument he should not have, and one which he cannot possible win. At security, if you have a problem, call for a supervisor. Bit your tongue until then. <hr></blockquote>

So, his entire life should be ruined because he had an "argument" with a moron? At the very worst, it was a mistake on his part, but, I can understand his frustration. I deal with this nonsense every time I have the audacity to show up for work......

[LevelFive]

The fact is the USAir pilot questioned them because they were not following the security guidelines set down by the FAA.

[Bubbette]

Really Level Five, what are you talking about?. ."Back to the gun on El Al. I’m sure El Al is very good a detecting terrorists. The old adage “it takes one to know one” comes to mind. The nation that now denounces terrorism used it very effectively themselves."

Really level 5, how so?

"The terrorist actions of the Irgun go forgotten by many these days. However, the effectiveness and the results they achieved are not lost on today’s terrorists. They see it as a lesson in how to achieve their goals. Now every Arab male between 16 and 60 represents a potential terrorist to them."

Not all of them, and not all females. But most of them. Face it, it's not 80 year old Japanese women who are bombing their pizzerias, discos, and bat mitzva parties.

"They spend vast amounts of money on security because they have to. Yesterday’s terrorists are today’s government politicians and they are on the other side of the circle."

Of whom do you refer, Level 5?

"Profiling separates a group. It treats them as suspects."

Again--who is it that is committing terrorism in Israel?

"The more they are subjected to this sort of hostile treatment, the more they see those doing it as the enemy. Hostility is now spread throughout the group, not just the radical fringe. It takes you further away from a place where people can coexist peacefully. Think of the outcry if the British had used profiling to deal with the Irgun. It would have been denounced as anti-Semitism. But it’s okay for El Al to use against Arabs!"

That's right---because it's Arabs that are the most likely to blow up El Al. Do you think that's an inaccurate statement?