Flying in France:This is getting serious!

[MikeGodsell]

This is getting serious.
Imagine a nice day at your local airfield. The circuit is busy with many aircraft. A foreign machine appears overhead, and the pilot talks an incomprehensible language. He descends on the live side, and lands on the wrong end of the active runway, causing someone on final to make an emergency go-around. When interrogated by angry pilots in the clubhouse, he says it was not his fault, as they should have understood his language.

This is happening more & more at airfields in France and the offending pilots are us Brits. Not only the French aviation mags, but now our own CHIRP GA Feedback are reporting incidents with British pilots.
I have received lots of help from French aviators and enjoy flying round France. But to have that goodwill put at risk by a few ignorant British pilots is not to be countenanced.

So: Two facts for those about to cross the channel.
(1)“The international language of aviation is English” – If you are flying an airliner yes it is. If you are flying GA, NO IT IS NOT.
All the Worlds international airports use their national language to communicate but can use English if required. All other airfields use their own national language. Even some of my airline colleagues who should know better believe the myth that everyone speaks English. Surprise surprise if you arrive at Caracas, ATC will be talking Spanish. Similarly Russian is used at Sheremetevo, and French at Lille.

(2)There are many uncontrolled airfields in France and to avoid collisions the “Auto-information” frequency 123.5 is used by all pilots. The idea is situation awareness; with position, intentions, height, speed etc broadcast so that everyone can figure out the picture. Imagine John Smith turning up unable to understand the radio calls and unable to give his own position. French friends have suggested that the safest action is for all the French to scatter or divert until “Les Anglais” have landed! Others would like to restrict non-French speaking pilots to international airports only.

One thing is for sure- If there is a major incident involving a non-French speaking pilot, there will very quickly be a requirement for all visiting pilots to demonstrate competency in aviation French before landing at local French airfields.

For help: http://flyinfrance.free.fr www.pilotfriend.com

MG

[Fuji Abound]

I agree - totally!

I would however add the comment that having witnessed many French aircraft turn up at my home airport their English is also (on the whole) pretty poor. I commend the huge effort ATC at my home airport take to ensure they have understood their message.

The reality is more of us go to France than they come here. I guess that makes the problem far worse for the French than us.

[FlyingForFun]

MG,

First of all, this is not a subject I know a huge amount about. I've visited France a couple of times, been made very welcome every time, but only once ventured to an uncontrolled field. So my comments are based more on what I've read than on any real-life experience.

Having said that, a few thoughts spring to mind:

1) There are plenty of fields in the UK, some of them quite busy (White Waltham is one which immediately springs to mind), where non-radio aircraft are frequent visitors, and this kind of problem does not occur at these fields. So if it is possible to fly the correct circuit when non-radio, surely it can't be any more difficult to fly the correct circuit when the r/t is in a foreign language?

2) There are many guides on the internet with a list of English aviation terms and their French equivalents. So the absolute minimum r/t which should be possible, even without knowing a word of French, should be to download such a guide, and read from it when in the circuit. Even if you're not able to understand the French r/t (I speak a tiny bit of French and a tiny bit of German, and I can usually make myself understood, but understanding the natives is a different matter entirely, so I can quite appreciate how it might be difficult for an Englishman to understand French r/t), making calls in French will enable others in the circuit to hear what your intentions are.

3) I don't have it in front of me, but I believe the Jeppesen Botlang guide to France quite clearly states the language or languages used at each airfield, and for the vast majority (maybe even all) of uncontrolled airfields, the only language listed is French. So saying that "English is the international language of aviation" is wrong, and not acceptable at all.

I would hope that language barriers would not put people off visiting these fields, and would be against any measures which would cause people to be put off, because I believe that with appropriate planning it's possible to visit uncontrolled fields in France safely - but I am 100% behind any drive to get people to communicate in such a way that they can aviate as safely as possible - good luck.

FFF
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[IO540]

Which French airfields can one fly to from the UK that have ATC that is not required to be able to speak English?

Every pilot should know that staff at domestic airfields don't have to. Personally I avoid those for that reason (can't speak French).

But staff at international airfields do have to be able to speak English.

[stiknruda]

I happily fly to La Belle France several times a year, sans probleme. I rarely land at big 'dromes.

I've flown in 5 continents and I've never had a major problem - I'll tell you the Antonov 26 at 3000 one day!

Look out and rely less on the radio!

Boring old-fashioned Stik

[MikeGodsell]

Yes doing a non-radio circuit might be OK if you get it right, but a potential catastrophe if done wrong! But even one radio call in bad French will at least warn the natives of your presence and probable intentions.
An endearing French characteristic is a disregard for authority and love of tradition. So for instance when driving you can still find people insisting on “priorite a’ droite” when emerging from a side street.
Similarly there are some peculiar French circuit joining methods involving 45-degree approaches to the middle of the downwind leg from the outside.
The DGAC banned this practice in 1992, but it is still done, so beware.
The relevant order is as follows:
DGAC Order of 17th July 1992.
“Joining the circuit at a non-controlled airfield is to be effected:
At the start of the downwind leg. At the circuit height of the airfield.
And assuring visual separation from other aircraft using the circuit, and giving them priority.
This order assumes that before it is complied with, the pilot in command has determined the landing direction in use at the airfield.”
“The pilot is not obliged to make an overhead examination of the airfield if by exploitation of the messages of other pilots in the circuit (on the “auto-information 123.5 frequency) he has connaissance of the runway in use, the wind, and other relevant parameters of the airfield.”
“Joining from long final, base leg, or the middle of downwind is forbidden, but this order has been ignored by some pilots.”

As for the French causing problems for us. January“Aviation & Pilote” mag reports an incident in Jersey where a French pilot with no English was vectored away from the airport and told not to come back unless he learned English. The controller was quite correct but could have avoided humiliating the poor guy.


MG

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Well since the EU is all about harmonization, simply go the way of a standard as we now have to use metric for all dealings, common agriculture, fisheries etc, lets have a common EU language and the winner shall be English of course.
Simple aint it. :}

[IO540]

With rules like

"Joining from long final, base leg, or the middle of downwind is forbidden"

it's no wonder they disregard them! Objectively there is nothing particularly wrong with any of these, just as the OHJ is inappropriate under conditions of high traffic density.

I recently heard a French pilot coming into my local airfield (full ATC); he was told to report at some VRP which (like so many VRPs) is impossible to uniquely identify unless you happen to live there, got thoroughly confused, but eventually got in OK.

That's why I don't bother to learn the stock phrases like "downwind" in French; all that somebody has to do is ask you something or instruct you to do something, on the assumption that you know a few extra words, and you are stuffed.

I think if as many French pilots came to the UK as Brit pilots go to France, there would be havoc.

This means no flying between small local airfields in these countries (unless carrying a local language pilot/passenger) but that's a price I am willing to pay. Everybody has the right to use their own language, and IMV "foreigners" should learn that language if they want to visit.

International airfields are the exception to that, for very good reasons. Yet some places (La Rochelle being one) manage to have utterly incomprehensible English ATIS, and ask you to go to VRPs which nobody can find on the VFR chart.

[skydriller]

peculiar French circuit joining methods involving 45-degree approaches to the middle of the downwind leg from the outside.
The DGAC banned this practice in 1992

I was taught (by a French instructor) this was the standard french join when I initially came to France in 2000.... When I later moved to here, I learnt the official initial downwind join.

Joining from long final, base leg, or the middle of downwind is forbidden, but this order has been ignored by some pilots.

Oh really? Forbidding a Frenchman means they are more likely to do it....and everyone I see here at our uncontrolled "unicom" aerodrome joins at the most convenient Circuit position - ie Downwind, L/R base or Long Final, and it all appears to work well, just as it does in the UK.

Regards, SD..

[turniphead]

To stir things up a bit?
As a fluent French speaker and lover of France and most things French I feel able to criticise as well.
I fly my little aircraft all over Europe (18 countries so far) and beyond to the other continents. English is indeed the language of Aviation. The only problem for the rest of the world is that nobody has told the French! Many good references on this subjest to the French not doing as they are told. For their linguistic arrogance to be repeated would bring all aviation (including GA) to a complete halt. To expect a Croatian to speak Italian or a Norwegian to speak Spanish or German. What Englishman could communicate in Swedish and Polish? The Hungarians dont speak Czech and nobody understands Hungarian anyway.
Howerver GA thrives everywhere in English langauge--with good will all round--except La Belle France who as usual think themselves above the law and only obey EU edicts when it suits them.

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Well said turniphead.
I refer to my 1st post and duly rest my case M'Lud.:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Even as a French speaker, operating in France can be a nightmare, ESPECIALLY at the large international airports. CDG being a particular horror for me, closely followed by Le Mans just before race time............:eek: :eek:

To be honest this is a difficult situation, I certainly wouldn't want to speak any other language whilst bouncing around the circuit, but I understand the need for a common language.

A modicum of common sense is required, if you are going to be operating out of a farm strip or small field in another country, make your life easier and learn some stock phrases, for example "Could you repeat that in English as my French is rubbish."
Not an ICAO standard phrase granted, but it may get you out of trouble if someone asks you something you don't understand. At least then they'll know what to expect!

I'm just trying to think how I'd get Wee Jock McBawbag fae' Govan to learn all his R/T in French, it's hard enough understanding some people up here when they're speaking English!! (My girlfriend and all her family when they get together for example. I can often only get one word in ten!)

[strafer]

I notice their English was good enough to 'interrogate him in the clubhouse'. :hmm:

Seriously, descending on the live side tends to suggest his deficiencies are down to his piloting skills rather than his mother tongue. As suggested by others, if non-radio traffic can fit into a circuit safely, there is no reason why an inability to parlez Francais should be a problem.

The fact that most French people don't want to speak English, doesn't in my experience mean that most can't. In a lot of cases, they will understand English terms better than a mangled attempt at French R/T.

[dublinpilot]

I wonder how people would feel if they were told that as of 1 June 2006, worldwide, that they must speak only French on the R/T? :eek:

I'm sure we'd hear plenty of "I'm an Englishman, flying an English registered aircraft, in England. Why can't I speak English?".

And perhaps "Well, you can't fly into this airport from an international destination, so it makes sense that people here speak English, not French."

Many French airports are not open to international traffic, and many are in fact only open to based traffic. To insist pilots operating in these airfields speak English would be absurd.

Count yourself lucky that you happen to speak the most commonly used language in aviation, but don't complain about those that don't.

Many French fields are 'French Only' on the R/T. Either you can handle that, or you can not. If you can't, then don't go to such a field. It's all part of your flight planning. Do it properly, and obey the rules.

If you did not have a radio in your aircraft, and the airfield (in the UK) was not open to non radio traffic, would you fly there? No. Then why would you expect to be able to fly to an airport that is listed as 'French Only' on the r/t, if you couldn't make basic calls in French?

dp

[strafer]

I wonder how people would feel if they were told that as of 1 June 2006, worldwide, that they must speak only French on the R/T?What's that got to do with this thread?
My post was fairly jokey, but it was a serious point that clearly spoken English may be more understood than badly spoken French. As far as the French are concerned, even fluent speakers from England almost always have very strong accents. You may have noticed it works the other way too. the pilot talks an incomprehensible language as the first poster put it.

That's still a long way from arrogantly assuming everyone should speak English. A point so obvious, I didn't bother making it.

BTW, luck has nothing to do with it. :ok:

[FlyingForFun]

One particular member of my flying club is German, but living in the UK. He learnt to fly in the UK, and has a CAA-issued JAR license.

He visits Germany regularly, and thought about the possibility of hiring an aircraft whilst in Germany. One of the reasons why he hasn't done so yet is that, despite German being his mother-tongue, as he puts it "I don't know what the German for 'downwind' is!"

Admitedly that's not the only reason he hasn't yet flown in Germany, but it further demonstrates that English is not the universal language.

FFF
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[dublinpilot]

I wonder how people would feel if they were told that as of 1 June 2006, worldwide, that they must speak only French on the R/T?

What's that got to do with this thread?

It's called looking at it from the other persons point of view ;)

It could be worse......you could all be expected to speak Irish on the r/t :p

[strafer]

Fadhb ar bith!:)

[skydriller]

He visits Germany regularly, and thought about the possibility of hiring an aircraft whilst in Germany. One of the reasons why he hasn't done so yet is that, despite German being his mother-tongue, as he puts it "I don't know what the German for 'downwind' is!"

I seem to remember being told by a german pilot when discussing flying in Germany that " if you fly up to Germany and talk English on the Radio, then everyone else on Frequency will also switch to English, so dont worry.." or something to that effect anyway. I have no reason to dis-believe him.

No way that would happen in France.....

Regards, SD..

[MikeGodsell]

Hmm
Aviation is a language in itself...
My French wife when asked to listen out on the radio for the QFE. "Oh you are so English, why do yuo want the queue for tea?":hmm:
MG

[mad_jock]

FFF tell your german friend not to worry about using English when in Germany.

I have flown there and most pilots seem to want to prove that they can use english. The NATO forces flying around there mean that all controllers are very good at english and I had one who got quite stroppy if everyone in the circuit didn't revert to english as soon as I was airborne. I did say i didn't mind but his reply was "they need the practise".

And to be honest a fishhead can't understand a south german if they arnt' high german speakers. It wasn't uncommon at work for Germans to use english as a common language when both parties had strong regional differences.

[Keef]

Several times when arriving at "French-only" airfields I've called up with "XXX bonjour" and my callsign in standard phonetics (with a French bias - "Yonkee" rather than "Yankee" etc).

As often as not, they reply in English. Usually there's no other traffic about anyway.

The only really scary moment was going into Toussus, speaking English to the Tower: I was on final to 07 right and an aircraft shot across in front of me a couple of hundred yards ahead and a few feet lower, and turned final for 07 left. That really shook me; when I told the controller about it, he explained that English-speakers were being given 07 right, and French speakers 07 left. Scary!

[Waldo_Pepper]

That sounds pretty interesting, I've gotta say! Sorry if it's a dumb question but I fail to see the logic behind that?

[Keef]

That's what I thought, too. I was not impressed. If he'd warned be beforehand, it might not have been quite so bad.

[Tim_CPL]

Similarly there are some peculiar French circuit joining methods involving 45-degree approaches to the middle of the downwind leg from the outside....MG

Just a question as I do not fly in either UK or France, but is this the standard 45 degree downwind join that is universal in the USA, as the description sure sounds like it. Was there a technical reason why the 45 degree join was banned? Just interested...

- Tim

[MikeGodsell]

Tim-CPL

If I remember right, the reason for the DGAC action was accident statistics by the BEA (French accident investigation agency) which showed the most likely place for a midair was overhead an uncontrolled airfield.
They tried to standardise and simplify circuit joining, by making the start of the downwind leg the only integration point. They also banned the 45 degree join ("chaussette" or "sock") because it involved too many sharp turns at low level.
What they wanted was to encourage use of the "auto-information" 123.5 frequency, so that pilots could get runway info from each other, thus avoiding the need to do an overhead join.
As another poster put it.."trying to tell French pilots not to do something guarantees they will do it!" However 123.5 is used very much now, and is probably the main reason the French don't bump into each other; but also why they are so concerned about non-french speakers flying into their uncontrolled airfields.
MG

[IO540]

"the most likely place for a midair was overhead an uncontrolled airfield."

They should have told the CAA.

I agree totally; the OHJ is a stupid idea, dating as it does from pre-radio WW1 signals square days.

What we need is WW3; then the CAA could update the syllabus to WW2 and they had radios in WW2 :ok: Sadly, with the nuclear deterrent in place, we aren't likely to get that option (despite some peoples' best efforts) so aviation will just have to make do....

[n5296s]

I do speak fluent French, but as someone else said, you still have to learn the proper vocabulary for things like "upwind" and "base". I learned to ski in French, and I'm still not sure of the English for some things.

I flew at Mandelieu (near Cannes), with an instructor, mainly to get the hang of doing the radio in French and other quirks of flying in France. But it wasn't a huge success because Mandelieu (which is towered) is largely used by French pilots as a place to improve their English!

John

[coodem]

I have not yet got my ppl, but do intend to fly accross to France. That is once I got a few hours and confidence behind me. Now my French is non existant, however my partner is a native French speaker. Can I get her to do the radio calls. ie. I instruct her what to say. Is this legal?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, sure it is answered in the training manuals somewhere, but not got to that yet

Thanking you all in advance

[172driver]

They also banned the 45 degree join ("chaussette" or "sock") because it involved too many sharp turns at low level.MG

Why, please, would a 45 deg join (standard in the US) involve sharp turns ??

[MikeGodsell]

172 driver
I am not familiar with the US 45' join, but suspect it is different to the French version. Have a look in Delage or Pooleys and you will see that the "Sock" involves three 45' legs and three tight descending turns.

coodem
Your partner could be very helpful if you venture into rural France.
But she would need to learn the language of aviation. Even a native French speaker would be flummoxed by aviation french. Perhaps she should join you on the PPL course!?

MG

[dublinpilot]

Even a native French speaker would be flummoxed by aviation french.

I find most English speaking passengers are flummoxed by aviation English, and only understand a small percentage of what's said over the R/T despite understanding all the words.

dp

[IO540]

Call me an ignorant pig who doesn't take sufficient interest in other cultures :O but that is the 2nd reason why I stick to international airports when going abroad (the 1st one is to avoid arrest).

Radio talk is a whole language, which like any other is highly context specific. You have to know more or less what is being said in order to understand it. This is why most PPL students go into instant brain overload when they are asked to fly the plane as well as do the radio.

Note also that non-international (i.e. domestic) French airfield data is deliberately excluded from the notam data made available to ais.org.uk, so if you fly to one of those (obviously legal only on an internal flight) then you have to get notams from France (or perhaps more accurately from any notam source within Schengen). Whereas if you stick to international airports, ais.org.uk will do just fine.

[172driver]

172 driver
I am not familiar with the US 45' join, but suspect it is different to the French version. Have a look in Delage or Pooleys and you will see that the "Sock" involves three 45' legs and three tight descending turns.
MG

Oops, that sounds VERY different from the US version. There you basically descend to pattern (circuit) alt outside the pattern, then fly to the 'downwind abeam' point at a 45 deg angle. Radio call would be 'XYZ on the 45'. This way you have any traffic in the pattern in sight. You then turn into the pattern (call 'downwind abeam') and then you're in.

Don't have the Delage and my (UK) Pooley doesn't contain this info. Any website where I could educate myself?

On a different note, I would concur with IO540 here - radiospeak IS a different language. I speak fluent French (having lived there for years) but would most probably struggle to do the radio there!:sad: