Requirements for seperation: why do pilots ignore them

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Please all you pilots out there could you explain this one to me? :}

Over the last few days have issued requirements to pilots for seperation only to have 90% of them not complied with. The excuses ranged from "we couldn't see the other guy so we didn't bother complying as didn't see the need" to "cant you move the other a/c" the classic "sorry we hoped you wouldn't notice" and my favorite " we thought it was optional":{

Now I dont know about you but if someone said to me be at this level at this point so you dont have a TCAS RA/hit with someone else I would move heaven and earth to do it. Are these pilots just so stupid that they shouldn't be given sharp instruments let alone fly a plane or do they truely think they are the only a/c in the sky and they can do whatever they want??

The worst offenders were QTR followed by GFA then the cargo UAE planes. :mad:

What would it take for these guys to take their job seriously?:confused: Its also interesting to note that these are the same pilots that are complete idiots when it comes to R/T.:mad:

Please explain this to me as i just dont understand how they can be that unproffesional.:*

[chinawladi]

It might be like the Indians in their Echo's: They just can't do any better.
But I suspect it's more like "... I couldn't care less...." because all these guys get shafted from all sides day in and day out.
As you said "very unproffesional" - or is it unprofessional?

[boeingdriverx]

give us the source of your information, so we can judge ourself.

a very proud Gulf Air pilot.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

boeingdriverx not quite sure what you mean. :confused:

Are you wanting that information while flying(ie what the other traffic is) to see whether it is a genuine requirement or if its worth meeting the requirement? or are you refering to the 90% and how I arrived at that figure?

If its the first I can only speak for myself in that everytime I give a requirement for seperation I give the requirement as well as the traffic you are being seperated from. I make sure the requirement can be realistically met and if not then use another form of seperation. Others just give you the requirement and expect you to comply and if you cant then do the same and find another way. ATC don't give seperation requirements just for fun, we give it due to traffic so that seperation is maintained and we can all go home at the end of the day.

If its the second point, on my last shift 13 requirements were issued for seperation from other a/c and 11 times the pilots failed to comply and failed to advise me. Even when asked multiple times to confirm that they would make it they they replied that they would make it with ease etc etc then failed miserably to meet it. They consisted of 6xQTR 3xGFA 2xUAE cargo. This is just the failure to comply when other a/c are involved. I lose count of the ammount of times per shift that a/c fail to meet the height requirements on the STARS and the issued height requirement at DUMPI.

As always its not all pilots who do this and as with the R/T issue it is only a small portion of pilots that are unable to fly in a safe and professional manner. But when those pilots make up a large portion of your extra workload with their poor airmanship it tends to stand out. As a pilot it also must concern you that the other a/c that I am giving requirements to so they dont come near you, cant be bothered complying with them and is not only putting my job on the line but you life and the life of all on board at risk.:(

Hope this helps.

[Soft Altitude]

Ali Bin Somewhere,
Who knows, a little refresher on ATC procedures, back to basics, would not hurt from time to time.
I fly into Dubai very often as a GF pilot(so I might be one of the culprits:E ),
and let me tell you that I enjoy the clear instructions and precise vectoring we get there 98% of the time, however, sometimes it seems that you guys are unaware of aircraft or human performance (which I just can not believe) like how many miles a medium or a heavy jet needs to decelerate or loose height.
One of the worst instructions we have to comply with is:"Increase rate of descent and reduce speed to ... kts" sometimes the voice gives away like we are expected to do it "NOW".
Then, please correct me if I am wrong but once I get a heading and an altitude, I am not flying the SID or the STAR anymore, therefore I will not comply with an SID or STAR altitude or speed restriction, I mean I am not supposed to or am I ?
The other day I had an instruction to turn left direct RANBI after a 30L dep out of Dubai, because of flight plan leg sequencing of the FMGS, it took us several seconds(!) to get the plane fly to RANBI, in order to have one of your colleagues in the next second almost yelling at us:"Are you turning left to RANBI as instructed ONE MILE AGO !!!!!"
Come on ! At that stage we are flying 4NM/minute, "one mile ago" was 15 seconds ago, please be a little bit more patient, it could have been an FMGS failure, which could have "delayed" somewhat the execution of the ATC instruction.

[LDG NO BLUE]

Hi Ali,
I'm a GF pilot and I understand your frustation. Except from Dxb and Auh, it is very seldom that ATC is gonna give us speed control. Therefore, we have to do our own "energy management" the best we can, playing with the speed.
When ATC gives me speed control, I follow it. Some collegues don't.
However, I have an understanding for why some guys are reluctant to follow certain clearances. Some factors decrease the confidence in the system:
- you call 2, 3 times until you get a response,
- we have to keep prompting for further descend and climb, while there is no other conflicting traffic,
- please switch off the red bars if you line us up on the active rwy,
- should I mention radar vectors in BAH?
I think, or I hope, that gradually, both sides will be doing a more professional job.
I heard some chew ups a couple of times in some other frequencies in Europe:
"xxx 123, if you cannot keep 220 kts, I will have to take you out of the sequence."
"xxx 123, next time you reduce the speed you have to advise me, there is traffic behind you with minimum separation".
Cheers.

[ATCO1962]

Hi Ali,

I work next door to you but don't find non-compliance with instructions so bad here. Having said that, we have awful problems with people either not listening at all or listening but not comprehending/reading back. I don't mind if the radio's hard to hear and pilot's tell me that, but don't come back half a dozen times with variations of clearances I've issued without a good excuse. These days, we haven't got time for that nonsense.

I also have the dubious privilege of sitting next to controllers who issue less-than-stellar instructions and you can hear the deafening silence of our pilot bretheren who are completely underwhelmed by such clearances, so I can well understand the view from the other side of the radar screen.

On another note, as a matter of professional pride, I have to point out that every controller should spell separation correctly; after all, it is what we're paid to provide!:ok:

[vfenext]

This might also be a good time to bring up the fact that the majority of ATCO's in the Gulf don't seem to know the difference between min clean and min approach speed. Some day I am going to reduce to min approach when asked and see how doing 140kts at 60nm screws up your sequence. It cuts both ways and you can't have it every way. Also while we are axe grinding most jets can either go down OR slow down but they can't effectively do both together. Make up your minds when asking to expedite descent and reduce speed cause one of them ain't gonna happen.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Sorry no excuse for my bad spelling. But you will be pleased to know I separate much better then I spell.
Yes I have to agree wholeheartedly that there are some very average controllers who give some horrible instructions like speed and rate of decent at same time etc etc. They seem to have no understanding that it takes alot of time to turn an a/c or slow it down. So a refresher course on a/c performance would be a great thing.
Soft Altitude yes you are right. When you are on a vector you are not flying the STAR/SID but once given own nav and and resume star then you have to comply. As I said before there are some very average instructions given but by the same token I don't really believe that it takes 50nm to slow from 290ias to 250ias as often seems the case when pilots feel we are unfairly delaying them.:suspect:
LDG NO BLUE I do see that there are some problems with confidence in the system but we have the same problems as you. Like the QTR pilot who called with the phrase "center morning" no callsign no level. When asked who was calling the response was "its QTR here" no number no level . Asked which QTR as there were 3 inbound at the same time got the callsign code tracking estimate destination, but still no level. Eventually got level out of him but for the rest of the flight it took at least 3 calls to get him to listen/respond. And this was one of the pilots who missed the requirement by 6000+ ft..... would you be confident trying to control a/c who were that bad? As far as prompting for decent/climb there are not just a/c restrictions but there are also airspace restrictions. Often the delay in giving you what you want is not evident but in reality we are working hard with co-ordination and strip board trying to get what you want before you ask for it. One of the other threads discussed up the whole flightdeck visits etc but it would also help if you guys came into the center to see what it is like for us. You would learn alot and see just how busy it is. :ok:
ATCO1962 spelling issues noted and will try harder in the future.:(
But still no real answer as to why requirements seem optional to some pilots??

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

You are right, some ATCO's don't understand the limitations of aircraft and need to be told so if they need to get you down, they need to let you out on the speed, or they keep you going at your current speed and descent rate and give you extra track miles to compensate for the increased ground speed due to the high winds you are still in. Either way though, you are flying the plane, and I would expect that if I give you something you find difficult or impossible to do (which I try not to do), that you would tell me.

What Ali is getting at is a very serious issue here in the Gulf. I very nearly had a very nasty one over Sharjah the other day between a QTR A330 and a BAW 747. The BAW 747 was maintaining FL380, and so the QTR out of Doha, eastbound to India somewhere, was initially climbed to FL370. With approximately 6 minutes to the cross and the QTR approaching FL350, I asked the pilot what his climb rate was and he told me 1000ft a minute. I asked him if he could maintain that climb rate until maintaining FL390 (his requested level). He said he could, so he was climbed to FL390 with the requirement to maintain a rate of climb of 1,000 ft or more until maintaining FL390. At FL376 he stopped climbing. He went 4 paints, about 15 seconds with no change in altitude. I asked him his climb rate and without even sounding apologetic he happily replied, 300 ft a minute. When queried about the requirement he replied again very nonchalantly that "well we are struggling to climb now so we had to reduce our rate of climb".

Now on this same sector we quite often have 5 or 6 aircraft on vectors for sequencing into Dubai, so we are not able to vigilantly monitor the meeting of requirements as we would like to. Because of this we need pilots to meet the requirements given to them, and if unable to make them to tell us in a timely manner. Is this an unreasonable expectation????

BTW, on having a new A-hole torn for him, the QTR amazingly found the ability to climb again and I maintained a standard, but after lots of sweating. Just not good enough. Not here or anywhere else. But if QTR (and yes GFA) are wanting to be world class airlines then they need to lift their standards dramatically.

[4HolerPoler]

Great thread :ok: this communication is productive; whilst not all of the regions pilots frequent this site, I'm sure that this type of interaction will achieve far more than the old inter-agency letter writing which never achieved much.

4HP

[Speedbrake Lever]

Hey Lads

Go ahead with ......... the perhaps correct attacking .....

but please be more specific

like A./C Type not just airline name

Some of us are trying to clean up the Act

so specifics will help

S.L. .............. A G.T. Guy whom i'm sure you know

[popay]

Ali Bin Somewhere, well I am very sorry to hear about QR (but somehow it doesn't surprise me) not complying with the instructions, given by you. To answer your question: Your issued instructions are a MUST and nothing else and if not able to comply a pilot must inform ATC. Anything else is pure unprofessionalism. In my opinion you guys should treat it accordinly and inform the airline, which hopefully will take appropriate action.
Cheers.

[ATCO1962]

OK, here's something specific. Martinair (B742s) from SHJ eastbound A791. They are often heavy (that much we know because they're long haul to Asia with lots of fuel and cargo) When asked if they can make their requested cruising level by the boundary with Tehran, they almost always respond in the affirmative, only to find themselves several thousand feet below what Tehran is expecting them at and meaning a hurried call (read-apology) to the Tehran controller. This happens about once a shift cycle.

Now I know some of those Classics haven't got the kind of kit that some of the newer types have but please, if you have any doubt about your ability to make a level or to comply with any instruction whatsoever, please be honest enough to just say "Unable to comply" or words to that effect. I'd much rather make an extra call to co-ordinate or have the chance to make alternative separation arrangements than have to endure a near miss or do the sweating that ANSA alludes to.

For those of you who are already giving us precise and honest feedback(you know who you are), it's a pleasure doing business with you.

Safe flying!

[boeingdriverx]

Dear Ali,

Thank you for clarification. I was interested in knowing how you arrived to these figures...

I really think that both sides (Pilots / ATCOs) have their issues, and the best is to discuss it like we do it now. Again, we are all humans and we make errors sometimes because we get fatigued / bored. So please get the whole picture here again.

Few months ago, some AUH controller started a very good thread here on pprune about AUH procedures. And till today I try to keep these "guidelines" in mind (like stating your callsign when you vacate the runway in AUH). Communication is the way!

So if we were in a perfect world what will be high on your wish list Ali?

cheers
BD

[LDG NO BLUE]

Dear Ali and al,
I would be grateful if ATC would report these non-compliances to the company, regulatory agencies. That way, corrective measures can be taken.
Please, report it. No kidding.
As for desced and reduce, I understand that in major hubs, aircraft performance is sacrificed in detriment of traffic flow. Sometimes you have to open speedbrakes to get the cleared speed and altitude, and later you may find yourself high on profile. I have no problem with that, I don't ask why and I will not ask for further descend.
Quoting Doc 4444 PANS-ATM- 4.6.3.4:
"Instructions for an aircraft to simultaneously maintain a high rate of descend and reduce its speed should be avoided as such manoeuvres are normally not compatible."
Cheers.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

boeingdriverx the 2 top things on my wishlist are as follows


1) Callsign and level (if maintaining) or level passing and assigned level (if on climb/decent). If you give me more then that I wont complain, we dont need it but I wont complain but callsign and level is the min required for EVERY frequency change.

2)Either comply with the instruction given or tell me you cant. It doesn't matter how insignificant it seems to you, but the requirement is there for a reason and for safety reasons I need to know if you cant do it. It makes my job much easier and your flight lots safer if you are honest and tell me you can't comply. The earlier you tell me the more time it gives to do something else instead of a last min panic to make sure we dont have a break down of separation.

There are other things but we are human and no matter how good we are there will always be minor things that we ALL ( including ATC) do either incorrectly or in a way that you are not used to. :ok:


LDG NO BLUE yes I agree that we should be putting in incident reports and there is no excuse for not doing so. From a practical point of view there are 2 points to consider.

1) It takes about 20min to do a report. I had 11 that I should have done the other night and that was not including the height requirements on the STAR and at DUMPI so thats 220min. I get 90 min on break and 90min planner (assuming I am not being used on position to help when its busy) out of a 9 hour shift. Not sure how to fit it in. :ugh:

2) Reports in the past have resulted in the grand total of nothing being done. Not blaming the safety folks here or at airlines but with pilot shortages in all the airlines would you ground/retrain someone for not making a requirement when no TCAS or break down in separation occured??:confused:

I am the first to admit that there are some very poor instructions given when it comes to sequencing and I cringe whenever I hear one being given.:uhoh: I would just say to you if presented with one of these instruction and you cant do it, tell the controller as sometimes that is the only way they learn.

Thanks to you all for replying. Hopefully it will help both pilots and ATC to improve the way we work.;)

[Qatari515]

A very intresting post indeed....

I have always wondered where this communication barrier between ATC and pilots came from while it is all so easy and simple.

I do have to say that all this non existing knowledge causes a lot of frustration and misunderstanding from both sides.

I have the impression that ATC is the little " forgotten" brother of our otherwise so professional world of aviation. ATC discipline is often far far far away, read backs are forgotten and often replaced by a much easier " roger".
We should never forget how important a correct phraseology is, vertainly in an environment like the Gulf where people from all of the world meet eachother in the air.

TCAS aswell has contributed to a false sense of security from the pilots. Who needs ATC when you have TCAS?????

WRONG: IFALPA actually issued a safety bulletin (O6SA B001) regarding TCAS where they say that in no case whatsoever TCAS should be used to arrange your own separation as a pilot. This is not how TCAS was designed. It is there to increase your awareness as a pilot and to get you out of the S**T when you are allready in it up to your nose! Nothing more nothing less.

So as a pilot ATC instructions should be followed at all times. So what if you have your doubts about the reasons? Just do it, you are only staying at the safe side of things.

We all know that as a pilot it is VERY frustrating if an ATC controller screws up your whole descent profile and your energey management plan gets thrown out while levelling off at 1500ft at 210 kts 40 NM on final. It is annoying and it feels wrong!
But its not up to us to decide there to disregard ATC instructions. Follow them , stay safe and keep in the back of your head that this was not how you planned things but hey, ATC intsructions! And most of the times I am sure they will have their reasons why to do things this way.

example: that bloody DUMPI at FL220 when coming from UAE descending into OTBD!!!! It frustrates everybody incredibly. But there must be a reason for it. Maybe if ATC would be given the opportunity to publish a reason as well as a temporarily notam I am sure a lot of people would feel much better!

[Hay Day May Day]

I'm ATC too..

Try to file an ATC Occurrence Report every time an airline is not complying with an instruction. By time it might help since the regulator will receive an overview and statistics.

Ok a lot of paperwork but ATC is responsible for reporting action!

Be pro-active

[GlueBall]

Filing an ATC Occurrence Report every time an airline is not complying with an instruction is impractical reality. If you have so many separation problems in UAE airspace, then you ought to get an outside assessment team to study the problem. It may be because of inadequate communications, inadequate training, understaffing, procedural problems, airspace infrastructure constraints or cumbersome traffic flow patterns.

More airports are being built and much more traffic is to come. It's time to sort out the separation logistics now before it gets out of hand.

Compared to traffic saturation management at airports like ATL, ORD, LAX, LHR... UAE is a small traffic problem. Some of your senior managers would be well to do in spending time at those high density centers and feel the pulse of saturation traffic management.

Nevertheless, I'm often in and out of AUH, DXB and SHJ and find all of you ATCOs doing a good job during peak traffic flows.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

First of all, Glueball , UAE ACC has on average 1,300 movements a day, handled by 4 sectors, with 6 (if we are lucky) controllers rostered on, making a total of 18 controllers a day. Statistically we work more aircraft per controller than Eurocontrol. We don't have a lot of separation problems if pilots do as they are told to do. We are too busy most of the time to explain in length why we are forcing you to descend or hurrying you up on the climb. We have a very small airspace, with a lot of crossing tracks, climbing and descending mixing with overflying aircraft. On one side we have severe restrictions as to what levels we can give, and even though we are radar in some cases we have to provide 10 minutes no closing to help out FIR's down the line. We have severe in trail restrictions imposed on us from DB App, eg.straight in approach RWY12 through DESDI 20NM in trail separation required. I am not saying the airspace is perfect, but the airspace isn't the main culprit and neither is the training as the guys I work with are some of the best I have seen. It is a simple fact that traffic in the Middle East increased by over 13 per cent last year, the fastest growing region in the world, compared to the global average of 7 and a half per cent.

So, what is being asked on here is that pilots do as I am sure they have been trained to do, say there level on first contact , and if climbing or descending report the level they are passing and level climbing to. If given a requirement, either meet it or tell us they can't in a timely manner. A timely manner is, if given a requirement to make FL380 X ..... tell us approaching the previous standard level ie. FL360 at the latest so we maybe can stop you at FL360 (assuming no one else is already using that level which is a fair chance). The best answer is, before saying "yes" to the question of can you meet requirement ...., have a good hard look at it, and err on the side of safety. As has been said earlier we don't give requirements for the fun of it.

On the FL220 at DUMPI issue, QATARI 515, there are a number of reasons for this I will go through them one by one.

1. Bahrain Airspace sits above what the Doha controller controls, it avoids any unforseen problems of guys staying high and barrelling into Bahraini controlled traffic to force you down.

2. I hear you ask, why then by DUMPI and not TOSNA, the boundary. The reason is the European inbound route to AUH crosses that route at about 80 NM to run for AUH (only a guess as not at work so can't measure it), and these guys just like you need to get descent. If you stay up high as you would like, and we are on RWY 13 in AUH, we get the AUH inbound traffic about 20 NM before they cross you, and we can't get them under you. If we can't get them under you, we are having them stuck high for a long time till we can get them clear of you. The fairest thing was decided that OTBD traffic was pushed down so they were under profile, and the AUH traffic is stopped at FL230 till clear of you, making them a bit high on profile, but hopefully everyone makes it in one piece. It is a compromise, but while it seems to piss off the pilots it seems to work.

3. Before you cross the inbounds to AUH you cross the outbounds to Europe from AUH (at about DUMPI). We were having a big problem of having to hold these outbounds down underneath you and then having to scramble to get them above converging DB traffic at BALUS, and also above the OTBD traffic going to DB at FL210. By pushing inbound traffic to OTBD to FL220 it gives us a fighting chance to get the AUH outbounds above FL230 before the cross and then we are in with a chance of getting them above the next cross in about 30 or 40 NM at BALUS.

I hope that helps, you may need to get a map out to make sense of all that, but I assure you, the change makes sense and I guess it causes a little bit of pain for everyone, instead of a lot of pain for a select few.

Cheers all.:ok:

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Alot of these issues of "what the hell are ATC doing that for?" are bought up in this forum and explained which is just what it was designed to do. It would also be great (and I know how hard it is to get the time to do it) if pilots could drop into the center in AUH not Dubai and have a look at what goes on here. And not just a 5min "hi how are you going" but a real visit for a couple of hours just to see what its all about.;)


But here is the thing; if you want to visit then thats great but if not then thats also fine. But be aware that we need you to make requirements or follow instructions so that we all have a fighting chance of getting home at the end of the day with life and licence intact.:ok:

[03Rnow30R]

Cool, a constructive bit of chatter.

Thought I might add a few bits on for those wondering why OMDB App do some "apparently" weird and wonderful things.

The level restriction inbound at Orlik, etc. What you chaps may not know, is that we have some gentleman in uniforms and flightsuits, with bits attached to their aeroplanes that may make your eyes water, batting across our airspace in a North/South direction. You are being forced below them for one.

Secondly, It also helps us try to get a bit of a "clean handoff" with the outbounds climbing to 13000' so we can hand you off to Area soonest. Think of that next time you look at your TCAS gizmo and then call passing 9000' for 13000' to say "....approaching 13000' " because you don't see any traffic.

You may have noticed that you are being vectored a bit more than usual when going to PAPAR off RWY12. That is due to a restricted piece of airspace that has been created BTN DB and SJ that is not allowed to be overflown AT ALL on departure or below 4000' on arrival or over flight. We are either trying to avoid you having to fly too many track miles and turning you before this red blob on our screens or scraping you around the outside of it and then to PAPAR. It is pain in bottom.

Thanks to the ACC guys for the increased spacing on the inbounds, it is very much appreciated. I and the rest of my watch do try to call and thank you when we see some really amazing feets, especially on nightshifts. Thanks for your calls ANSA, they too are appreciated.

The reason we need to start with big holes (15 or even 20NM), is so that we can end up with 8 to 10 miles on final to allow for the restrictions impossed by the new phase of single runway ops. Especially with RWY12 in use, the aircraft either run AAALLLLL the way to the end and turn right, or turn left and we need to make gaps to get them back across the runway and also depart another.

The instruction to ruduce speed and expedite going down, not clever. I agree and it is written down as shown.


Call me first contact without your level passing, also not clever. It is a requirement and a pain in the a*@ to have to keep asking for it and it too is written down.


Please keep this a constructive thread. This may help us all till one day we can come and play at your house and you can come and play at ours. Roll-on jumpseat rides.....

[411A]

Hmmm, it would seem that most of the problems lie with flights not doing what they are told to do.
Lets say the flight is departing DXB with a routing over SaudiArabia.
At some point a turn on course can be expected, and a few pilots are too busy fiddling with the FMC, not paying attention.
When the controller says 'turn' he means now, not thirty seconds later.
Turn on the approximate heading toward the fix concerned, then select 'direct to' then re-engage the FMC.
This so simple I am surprised the 'high tech' crowd gets it wrong on many occasions.
Too much heads down fiddling, with brain disengaged, if you ask me.
The ATC folks need all the help they can get.
Good grief....:oh:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Although 411A, I'll defend the pilots on this one. If I have a pilot on a heading and i need him to turn quickly to for example DESDI, I will give them a heading initially and then once turning to that heading I will then give them the track direct DESDI instruction as then they can find DESDI while in the turn. I don't expect a pilot to get a point into an FMS instantly while doing everything else, especially if they aren't completely familiar with the airspace.

[Plank Cap]

Question for the Controllers: do you prefer the very first call on your frequency to be just your name plus my name eg: "Dubai Approach, Emirates432"......... or do you prefer to receive the initial call of "Dubai Approach, Emirates 432, passing level 220, descending altitude 10,000, Boeing 773, information alpha, Bubin 3T, 280 knots, heading 270?"

I have tried both (and regardless of official r/t technique) and often been asked to repeat parts of version B as not all of the info was received. Perhaps you were on the phone or otherwise engaged at the moment I called. Version A in comparison has very little info. Perhaps a compromise would suit you guys better? I seem to remember from a long time ago and very distant past, that establishing comms with the agency I am talking to was the preferred technique......

Say all again, after, over..........

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

cant speak for APP but as far as enroute is concerned the requirement is call with center name your name and level maintaining or level passing and assigned level if on climb/decent:ok:


ie UAE ctr Emirates432 passing FL398 decending to FL290


as i say APP require more but not 100%sure what it is so maybe 03Rnow30R can help out.

[LDG NO BLUE]

Hello,
The idea of reporting is that the concerned airlines can identify that there is a deficiency in the R/T procedures and noncompliance to ATC clearances.

The ncs can be due to:

1) I didn't know
2) It couldn't be helped, it was not my fault
3) willful noncomplicance

The first 2 causes can be adressed via proper training where the third one is more difficult to deal with.

In DXB charts, STAR, SID and airport chart (for Jepp users), is clearly stated what they wanna hear. In Rome is something else and so is Bombay.
The rules are there, people must only comply with them. No more, no less information then required.

A healthy reporting culture allows us all to learn from mistakes without beeing afraid of reprimands (except for the willful noncompliance).


Cheers.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

LDG Blue, in the UAE Centre only the coffee is allowed. SUDOKU, and crooswords, books, newspapers etc have been outlawed in the ops room, even if you are on a break. Has been that way for about 2 years now. As far as finding the time to file a report on an aircraft that failed to meet a requirement, I agree we should. You have to understand though that the supervisor of the shift has to do it. This is a guy that often is working with a crew of 5 that is running 4 sectors (and sometimes 5 if West opens or a planner is needed), and he is expected to work 2 hours on 1/2 hour off for a 9 hour shift, and then on his so called "break" catch up on all the other paperwork (which there is a lot of ie. every Non-RVSM pushdown is logged so it can be investigated), prepare the briefing for the next shift. check the emergency centre, check emergency phones, check emergency radios, answer incoming calls from all sorts, ground non RNP 5 aircraft, release these aircraft, and then maybe just maybe, have a piss and make a coffee before he plugs back in. He may also be required to be training someone, or giving someone a recency check at the same time. Now you tell me where in all this he has time to fill out an occurrence report for every aircraft that fails to follow an ATC instruction????? That is why we are trying to educate pilots on here, as to why we need them to meet the requirements and to let them know what we need them to say.

I hope all this helps.

[03Rnow30R]

Regarding what Dubai want on first contact.

There is a bit of a difference between what I (this my opinion) would prefer to hear and what we have to hear on first contact. The R/T gets a bit silly at nights with all the info that has to be passed according to the rules.

The most important thing for us is your level passing and cleared altitude. Even though you have been handed to us by a radar sector that has verified your mode C is correct, we run two different systems that are in no way linked, we need to verify it again. If and when we get a linked FDP and system, we should be able to do the checks on deparure and UAE on the inbounds, once only.

Here is a bit of info. Our system is designed to adjust the 1013 level transmission from your transponder to indicate altitude on our displays when you are below the transission level or altitude. The QNH is fed into the radar to allow it to do the maths. Our sytem here is set to start giving us the adjusted(corrected) display as altitude below F140. I know different airlines do it different ways. Some change to QNH once cleared to an altitude even if they are still above transission and others only once they are through it. Please give us the Level above F140'ish and altitude readouts below that. And yes we want it to the 100' please, as we have to check you are within a 200' tollerance above or below in the UAE.

This is the most important thing I want because I am in doo-doo if I have not got it ticked on my little paper strip showing it is done, the tapes can be checked too. Aircraft type too please, trust me the flightplan isn't always filed correctly and performance or wake may be completely wrong. Fortunately EK only fly heavies. Guys, "....passing ten thousand eight hundred and twenty five feet,...." thanks I can only see up to the hundreds bit.

I must say I am also guilty of not filing when pilots don't do it. Time facor, yes. I also think there must be a more constructive way of getting the problem sorted, like this forum. Filing may cause the pilot to take it the wrong way and cause more animosity than anything else. Once again that is only my opinion.

Read backs: Runway? You are supposed to, even more importantly with parallel runways as close together as ours. QNH? You are supposed to always read it back. Information Delta? Congratulations, but you are supposed to.....

Hope this is a bit more informative. :ok:

[Plank Cap]

Thanks gents, it's helpful to have questions answered and this thread has been educational. Who says everything you read on Pprune is a load of CR:mad: P.........?

[Soft Altitude]

Sorry gentlmen, but I felt a personal attack here which I dislike, ANSA thanks for jumping in; 411A do you really think that even a novice airline pilot after a few months of line flying will not have the "witt" of turning the heading selector first then engage DIR TO a waypoint ? That really does not take much brain, I was mentioning a recalcitrant or a failed FMGS in an environment where precision flying is required, where ultimately you would need to report immediately loss of NAV capability and it was not 30 secs but less than 15! Thanks.

[tournesol]

Hi Ali,
with due respect, there are sloppy pilots and sloppy controlers. judging from the style of your writing, it is not difficult to know which kind of controller
you are. i just hope you use better language on the radio.
:ok:

[03Rnow30R]

Due respect you say? So, bang goes another another thread that looked like it was being constructive.:(

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

sloppy controlers

POT.KETTLE.BLACK.

Is English your first language? Unless you have something constructive to add please take your personal attacks elsewhere.

[LDG NO BLUE]

Hello,

Altimeter setting:
GF has the SOP of setting QNH/QNE, as soon as cleared to an altitude, resp, FL. It's impractical to give ATC an altitude reading, without making calculations, or leaving one altimeter to QNH.
So, bear with us next time we give FL 52, climbing FL 180. At least you know I'm reading FL, right?

Having fingertip problems?
Well, I don't know the time provisions made for turning to an assigned heading, but I guess we should have the time of going "heads down", hit the DIR key and entering the required waypoint. If this time delay may cause a traffic conflict, then give us a heading like ANSA suggested.
Now, if the automation is not doing what it should, downgrade to HDG, still not happy, disconnect AP and turn the plane.

Reports:
I understand time is an issue, not to mention the headache of paperwork because of somebody elses mistakes.
Suggestion:
Write one letter to GF-HFST (Head of Flight Standards and Training), adressing the non-compliances. I'm sure the company would take actions based on such a complain. It's a systematic problem, therefore, needs to be adressed via the proper channels, despite the good intentions of this site.

Cheers.
LDG NO BLUE

[GlueBall]

Controllers should also be aware that not all of the airplanes in their piece of the sky have FMS equipment. Yes, it's true that many of the older birds still depend on prehistoric inertial navigation systems where crews must manually input coordinates of each waypoint. So, being cleared to some off route waypoint takes more than a few seconds to load, it takes a minute! :eek:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

We are aware of this glueball, since we talk each day to number of Yaks, Antonov's and Illuyshin's of all kinds. That is precisely why when turning them off a heading I give them an initial heading for the fix I want them to fly and then once in the turn give them the next fix to fly to. These guys in some cases can't even tell me what their IAS is, and certainly not the MAX IAS is on descent which is what we are after since they are usually holding up the sequence behind them. The usual response to "request your maximum IAS on descent" is "1,500 ft per minute". But thats part of the job in these parts, and for the most part they do try.

As has been said earlier I hope we can keep this constructive, and rather than turning into an "us versus them" slanging match, we can come to understand the challenges we all face in our chosen job.

Would anyone on here have the influence to push for a restart to famil flights for controllers, as I think that would really help bridge the gap, and give us a chance to explain a lot of the new procedures to you, and explain why they are needed.

[tournesol]

ali & 30r
if i have offended you plz accept my appology.
if english is my first language or not, that is irrelevent. i just hope you did not imply that only english natives are entitled to their opinion.
you guys have started a beneficial discussion to the aviation community as a whole. that is not debatable.
my resentment to your posting is the use of a strong language such as "stupid".
as to my comment of sloppy(slopy) pilots and air traffic controllers, plz do not take it personlly. you & i know there are ppl in every field who are marginally acceptable in their competence.
let us make peace and continue with a fruitfull discussion.
peace be with you all:ok: .

[hardonalways]

hai everyone,this is far most the best tread in this forum and extremely educational.well done ali.hopefully many more atc/pilots problems or doubts should be highlighted here.
been flying across this region for many years now and my opinion is that the muscat and uae controllers are execellent.they are calm,precise,positive and helpfull.
as pilots,the moment we know that we are in positive radar enviroment with good controllers,95% of our job and worries are over.some part of the world....the atc makes our already stressful job increase 10 fold.my bp just rises in certain airspace.
as for some pilots who do not adhere to constrains and atc restrictions,i believe this only accounts to less than 5% from the rest of the proffessional pilots community.
for atc guys..if you dont have the time to make a report than the effective way would be ...just tell this pilots off over the rt and educate them on the reasons...this would only take about 10secs.by doing this the same pilot will never make this mistake ever and all the guys who overhears this rt would carry this talks over beers at nightstops..the story would spread...the best education system is by the word of mouth.....
for atc guys....you guys are doing wonders..keep it up...
please write to the airlines for fam flt or even an atc classroom briefings...it would help in interaction of our delicate career.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

tournesol apology accepted, thankyou. The reference to english as a first language IS irrelevent. It is as irrelevent and tenuous as someone's style of writing making them a sloppy controller. Get the point?

IF i caused offense by calling a small miniority of pilots stupid sorry but I do stand by that. what else would you call a person who puts hundreds of lives on both his a/c and another a/c in jeopardy just because "he couldn't see the other guy so we didn't bother complying as didn't see the need to" ? As I said it is a very very small percentage of pilots but they are creating an inordinately large ammount of workload for no reason.

Let's keep this thread positive and on topic :ok:

[sandborne]

While still trying to remain positive here the thread was started because of the fustration some of us feel about non compliance with instructions. It is simple.If you can, do. If you can't, advise. However I agree that the flow management in the UAE is woeful and as a controller I am embarrassed by some of the things I see and do to make a sequence work but given the tools and airspace that I have I am doing the best I can and my above advice applies.
Many of the step descents into the UAE are airspace dependant and cannot or rather should not be ignored by controllers. Some specifics are, if you call before ORSAR from Tehran we shouldn't be descending you until we have spoken to the Tehran controller and if you knew how hard just getting in contact with them is you would understand why the delays. When you are inbound from Muscat there are again airspace limitations that should be followed but often aren't. When calling from Bahrain on descent to Dubai and Abu Dhabi we have to call the Bahrain controller and ask for clearance to descend aircraft before certain points. If you cross the UAE FIR to/from Doha there are multiple crossing tracks on your routes and the requirements are in place to ensure separation with those routes. You cannot have efficiency for everyone when safety is the prioirity.

[oryxbollocks]

Why am I not surprised either, Popay?

Just how hard is it to do what you are told? It’s a controlled environment after all!

If you don’t know the capability of your aircraft, admit it and take a lower level or whatever. In most of the Far East you are required to be at your level by the FIR boundary, so why not do it here when asked?

Direct To? Increase your ND range and spin the heading over the waypoint. THEN, go Direct To.

Altimetry! So that’s where QR get their inane system from? Gulf Air! QNH/STD should be set as close to transition as possible and now you ATC guys confirm it. Why don’t we ALL try to get our Flight Ops departments to change the SOP?

ATC needs us at 220 by DUMPI. Do it! Don’t argue. Set 220 as a new cruise level and enjoy the view for a while before the next descent point comes up.

I appreciate you ATC guys’ comments re the time taken reporting these issues to the airlines concerned. I just wish there was a way of bringing the culprits to the attention of those responsible. Maybe then things will improve?

GB

[03Rnow30R]

Tournesoul, no worries. Just glad this thread is back on track.:ok:

Regarding the instruction that was given regarding the "....when ready turn left direct Ranbi...." I am not going to make any excuse for the ATC's sarcastic remark when the aircraft didn't turn.

Now to explain why you hear the " when ready turn left direct...." on departure from Dubai. We are only allowed to vector you or instruct you to go to a point when you are in our radar's RMA. Depending on terrain and the runway you departed on and direction of turn, it could be 1500', 2000' or 2500'. To expedite matters we can tell an aircraft after 1000' to " when ready set course wherever..." This means that the pilot is responsible for terrain clearance because it is his/her own navigation. This allows us to get aircraft turning on track quicker. As you can see, it means I can't issue a heading when you are in certain sectors as you are not high enough for me to provide you with a radar heading till you are sometimes through 2500'.

Some may say wait till the aircraft are high enough and then turn them. Sure, but we also sequence a flow outbound for ACC (well some of us try) and if we don't get the first ones turning early enough, our little daisy chain could end up in another country! So " when ready" for us will mean either: please turn asap if you are happy to, or I have no need for you to fly the full SID so go wherever. The sooner, the better.

I take in what has been said about the workload regarding the re-routing and will bear it in mind thanks. With regards the older aircraft: just tell us that you would appreciate an initial heading till you find the waypoint. It really isn't a problem. Every now and then we find somebody that doesn't update the FMS as they go around the corner and they end up turning through the direct track to the waypoint, to intercept the track from the original position they commenced the turn from. We will take the turn radius into account, we do not expect the aircraft to keep turning further then the direct track and it can be a bit alarmimng sometimes to see the aircraft turn back towards other departures.

Once again I support the call for jumpseat rides. I hope there is somebody on here that may have some influence in the right places.

Cheers;)

[ironbutt57]

Not too sure what type of familiarization the ATC folks get on the performance characteristics of the aircraft types, but I agree jumpseat rides might be beneficial under the right circumstances..my recent departure from AUH in a light 767 in trail of a rather full A320 was interesting as well, cleared to 13,000' as normal, then every 45 seconds or so cleared another 2000' higher...this all the way to fl360...a vector for climb was apparently not an option, if the ATC fellow had more familiarity with the performance issues between the two aircraft, then maybe this could have been anticipated/avoided...or very specific, published profile departure procedures to be followed by us, so we can anticipate...either way, suprised parties on either end of the microphone, can lead to headaches for all concerned.....:ok:

[Soft Altitude]

I agree with you LDG NO Blue and I would also encourage that you gentlemen from the ATC send out a report to GF when there is a non compliance with your instructions, there is no other way of dealing with the arrogance or sometimes the ignorance of fellow colleagues sitting in the next seat than severe punishment (if the guy can be punished because of his connections).
I have, like many other pilots, been told from the very beginnig, that ATC instructions are there to be complied with, not to be interpreted or disregarded.
From our side, I strongly believe that a few items in the GF SOP are definitely to be changed.
Another issue that I would like you to clarify is what do you mean by "no speed restriction" on departure: do you want us out of there asap or you want us "hovering above the airfield" at minimum clean speed and rocketting up through altitudes? Some guys do it! "No speed restriction, right? let's climb then with 210kts" !!!
Cheers

[popay]

03Rnow30R, well now we are sort of stepping into the area, where, I always found, the coordination between the ATC and pilots should be much better. I am talking about pushing the responsibility for obstacle clearance from ATC to pilot while issuing the instruction "resume own navigation". I have heard it quite often "resume own navigation" while being in IMC and radar vectored and below MSA. It happens a lot in far east areas, quite rarely in ME or lets say in UAE. Saudi is bit different though. I am talking about JED approach vectors. Neither the less, I think it doesn't help anybody to issue such instruction just to get rid of responsibility of keeping clear of obstacles, as many people still blindly rely on you and not necessarily think of who is now responsible of what. While doing so in order to accomodate the traffic flow and issuing the instruction to resume own navigation, ATC still has to give the appropriate instructions. Just to refresh our memory:
8.6.5.5 In terminating radar vectoring of an aircraft, the radar controller shall instruct the pilot to resume own navigation, giving the pilot the aircraft’s position and appropriate instructions, as necessary, in the form prescribed in 8.6.4.2 b), if the current instructions had diverted the aircraft from a previously assigned route.
12.4.1.4 TERMINATION OF RADAR VECTORING a) RESUME OWN NAVIGATION (position of aircraft) (specific instructions); b) RESUME OWN NAVIGATION [DIRECT] (significant point) [MAGNETIC TRACK (three digits) DISTANCE (number) KILOMETRES (or MILES)].
For those of us, sitting in the cockpit some info on accepting verctors:
1.7 RADAR VECTORS
Pilots should not accept radar vectors during departure unless:
a) they are above the minimum altitude(s)height(s) required to maintain obstacle clearance in the event of engine failure. This relates to engine failure between V, and minimum sector altitude or the end of the contingency procedure as appropriate; or b) the departure route is non-critical with respect to obstacle clearance.

4.1.1 Pilot's responsibility
The pilot-in-command is responsible for the safety of the operation and the safety of the aeroplane and of all persons on board during flight time (Annex 6,4.5.1). This includes responsibility for obstacle clearance, except when an IFR flight is being vectored by radar.
Note: When an IFR flight is being vectored by radar, air traffic control (ATC) may assign minimum radar vectoring altitudes which are below the minimum sector altitude. Minimum vectoring altitudes provide obstacle clearance at all times until the aircraft reaches the point where the pilot will resume own navigation. The pilot-in-command should closely monitor the aircraft's position with reference to pilot-interpreted navigation aids to minimize the amount of radar navigation assistance required and to alleviate the consequences resulting from a radar failure. The~pilot-in command should also continuously monitor communications with ATC while being radar vectored, and should immediately climb the aircraft to the minimum sector altitude if ATC does not issue further instructions within a suitable interval, or f a communications failure occurs.
ATC guys, please its not a critics, just my thoughts and refresher for all of us.

oryxbollocks, well with us its a different issue. We need a memo to go to the toilet, just my impression.
Talking about transition ALT LEVEL: in some parts of the world the procedure still presumes a level off at transition LVL setting QNH, QFE and transmitting indicated ALT to ATC for checking purposes, but its a bit overdone to my taste. I do agree though that transition LVL and ALT are for specific purpose there and ALT setting changes should be done at such.
Cheers. :8

[03Rnow30R]

Popay, thanks for that. I am a little confused about what you want to get across.

If it is that ATC are shifting the responsibility onto the pilot for terrain clearance, then I can only say that it has been the pilots all along. I am refering to on departure, before you are under any radar control. I have not been providing any vectors yet. We have mostly reasonably good visibility here, except for the odd haze or dust storm. I will take the weather into account. We also take obstacles into account, that is why we don't turn guys even on own NAV too early northbound out of SJ, off RWY30, as there is a very tall TV mast in Ajman. We do realize it is the pilots decision, that is why it is "...when ready...". Apparently most of us anyway, once again the previous ATC bollocking about the direct Ranbi thing was not right.

Regarding being vectored under the MSA and then being told to resume own NAV. Firstly, bit of help here please clever people. Do the MSA charts and the minimum radar vectoring altitude charts correspond? I am not sure, as I use the radar one. If not, then is the MSA in Dubai at any point higher than the radar one? I ask this because of the point popay has pointed out in 1.7(a). If we give a vector and you can't except it because you are beneith the MSA, then this is something I would like to highlight to my ATC friends and I have learned something.

Thanks for the refresher about the rules and regs, always good for us all to brush up every now and then.

Soft Altitude, regarding the "no speed restriction" question. It is just that; you can do with the speed what you want. 90% of aircraft will accelerate when they comply with there companies SOP for the minimun altitude (mostly 5000', some 10000'). If I want you to accelerate, I have to exercise positive control of the situation and tell you what speed I want. If you can't do it, please just tell me, so I can make another plan. It might be interesting, if you guys in the different airlines, could just confirm from which altitude you are allowed to accelerate at (ATC instruction) and at which altitude you can do it of your own accord. I know Emirates have two different ones.

Ironbutt57. Most of the ATC's are pretty familiar with aircraft performance, but obviously experience is our chief training officer. Unfortunately you aren't loaded the same for every sector. I have seen a 767 being outclimbed by an A320. Besides trying to guess from the distance you are going, we don't have much to go on. And there is the variable of the operator and the guys driving too. We get a reasonably good indication after watching you climb for the first few thousand feet. The freighters are a surprise every time, you have no idea how full or empty they are. Why you weren't put on a heading, I can only assume the guy had a good reason. There was no official "this is how a 767 performs" in my training, it is all just experience. Guys have to learn somwehere and I agree the jumpseats can only help this.

Cheers:ok:

[kingoftheslipstream]

This sounds like a total wind up... where do your numbers come from?

The only time I am responsible for my own separation is when I am cleared for and accept a visual approach. Other than that it is up to ATC when I am in controlled airspace.

[divingduck]

Hi all,
I can only echo what many of the ATCO’s have said thus far.
Standard phraseology is there for a reason, it gives us, the ATCO’s the information that we need on first contact. This means it saves time. Time is a very much undervalued part of our profession, we need every bit of it in busy periods.

I have a particular beef with Indian Airlines….can you guys PLEASE listen continuously, not just when you feel like it, on the frequency whilst in the Muscat FIR?
Could you also PLEASE answer with your own callsign, not for everyone else? Oh and whilst I am at it, could you PLEASE use your damned callsign when replying to an instruction.

Oh yes, can everyone PLEASE readback a change of frequency instruction. There is possibly nothing more frustrating than having to call several time to see if you copied the change of freq, and then if no response is received, having to go to the next controller to see if you have checked in…it wastes my time and it wastes his time, and time is something we do not have a whole lot of hereabouts.

This problem is not just endemic to Indian Air, many, many, many, flights check in and then seem to just not be there when we REALLY need to talk to them.
As someone said, it would be a lovely place if we had the time to fill in all the incident reports, but I have to say, a snarl seems to work far better and calls for less paperwork. Lazy bu66er me.
BTW, mine is only one of the two irritated Australian accents you are likely to hear in Muscat.

Whislt I am in rant mode…can everyone reading kindly take note, “Stand by” means hang on a sec, don’t just say whatever you just said again, or you will hear the irritated Aussie accent again.

As to not meeting instructions, I had to apologise to Bombay recently as two Saudi (Haj charters) did not meet their time requirements entering Bombay’s FIR.
I don’t need to point out that Bombay don’t run to a Radar 100NM off the Omani coastline so they actually use your times for procedural separation.
On the ASPUX track, Muscat also lose you quite a long way before ASPUX, so we can’t radar monitor your time requirements, we have to trust that the times you give are actually correct.
Please remember that these requirements are not given for controller amusement, they are to keep a legal minimum longitudinal or vertical separation standard between the two of you.
If you wish to argue that 10 minutes longitudinal is ridiculous, I’m all for it, however we don’t get to pick and choose which standards that we apply, and Bombay certainly don’t.

As ATCO1962 mentioned, on A791 we need to know if you can be level by KANAS, or Tehran will be rightly gunning for us if you wander across several thousand feet below what you read back as a requirement.
Same goes with GFA ex MCT for EGTAL, don’t tell us what you would really love to cross EGTAL at…tell us what you can ACTUALLY do, it makes everyones life simpler, especially these days with so much traffic going on the northern routes. Just remember guys, there is generally someone coming the other way!

Ahhhh, I feel better having got that off my chest!

ps Ironbutt, the ATCO may not have been able to vector you off track, there are lots of cases in the MCT FIR that we just can't take you off track due to oppostie traffic or Military areas...I have no idea what was the case in your circumstance but there are a couple of reasons...apart from the obvious!

If anyone has any questions for Muscat, let us know...we aim to please...

[divingduck]

Kingofslipstream.

I'll admit ignorance, I thought the PIC was responsible for not hitting the hard stuff at all times? At worst case it's 50/50.

If I am wrong I'll happily stand corrected.

[03Rnow30R]

4HP, can we change the title of this thread as it seems to have progressed to a much needed constructive general info exchange and the title doesn't do it justice anymore. Or do we start a new one?

[GlueBall]

Some of the Muscat Controllers get impatient and outright testy with westbound pilots who are unable to immediately establish contact at the eastern boundaries: RASKI, PARAR, and especially at ASPUX, the furthest waypoint which is virtually beyond the limit of VHF reception, even at FL400.

One of the problems is frequency congestion with Mumbai HF as crews are trying to check out with Mumbai Radio. Another problem is that some of the onboard VHF receivers and transmitters are weaker than others and pilots may not immediately make contact with Muscat Center on 128.15, or on 123.95 until several minutes inside Muscat airspace. This is especially true of airplanes that are entering at a lower Flight Level, as VHF reception and transmission is equivalent to line-of-sight.

Adding to the Muscat Controllers' workload are the frequent requests by westbound pilots to advise Mumbai on the landline that "checkout" via HF was not possible.

Muscat Controllers should be aware of these limitations, and they should understand that pilots do not intentionally establish belated contact. :ooh:

[03Rnow30R]

King? Afraid you lost me. You on about seperation or terrain? If it is seperation, yes we endeavour to provide that depending on airspace classification.:ok:

[popay]

03Rnow30R, I will try it again. I am talking about the situation, where the departed aircraft has been identified and is under radar control. Its definitely a different situation then, if under such circumstances the DIR to clearance has been given. Another possible situation is when, again under posit iv radar control, the departing aircraft has been radar vectored off track to accommodate inbound traffic and being cleared DIR to afterwards. SHJ, DXB isn't necessarily a critical airdrome in terms of terrain clearance and it doesn't really apply to you guys, as mentioned before. I was more generalizing from my experience when I was talking about it. At this point it would be interested to talk about responsibility of ATC to provide safe terrain clearance. A pilot is certainly always responsible of safe flight path, whereas ATC has to provide safe terrain clearance while being radar vectored, whether its departure or arrival. My point is its not necessarily helpful to be issued DIR instruction, while being below MSA and IMC only because the responsibility for safe terrain clearance shifts to pilot with such instruction. I have experienced that in other parts of the world, that's why I mention it here.
Talking about minimum radar vectoring altitude charts, i don't think we can use them to navigate safely below MSA as we cant definitely determine air crafts position only based on FMS (subject to shift) and radar vectors chart. I think, our reference is MSA based on NAV AID. You might wonna have a look at that thread here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204144&page=2
Finally i don't think, many people do really consider the aspect of possible engine failure on departure between V1 and MSA in regards of radar vectors.
Regarding speed limit QR does have the limitation < 250 below 5000 ft.
CHeers.

[03Rnow30R]

Thanks popay, got it that time. Thanks too for the info.:ok:

[Dct no speed]

Testing one two.....

[ATCO1962]

Glueball.

You know, I think that most Muscat controllers know the limitations of our equipment better than you think. After all, we deal with it minute by minute, day by day, etc.

The testiness that creeps into our voices is usually reserved for those pilots who do exactly what you say, who wait for a frequency change instruction from a busy Bombay Radio when they are heading at 500mph towards our boundary and still fail to change freq after they've crossed the boundary. You wouldn't believe the number of aircraft who begin to call us 50-100nm inside our airspace and wonder why we don't display the temperament of a spring lamb bouncing merrily around a green field!! You need to know that, regardless of what Bombay can get through to you, call Muscat at or before our airspace.

Thank you for reminding us all of VHF reception limitations. We must have forgotten all that. :hmm: Actually, we know where most of our reception "holes" are and usually work around that, once again, reserving our wrath for those who we know aren't listening after calling someone nearby who clearly gets us. Occasionally, we know that there are other gremlins at work and some of our guys aren't so adept at understanding and managing multiple tranceiver sites so I apologise to all of you who know you've been listening out but still got an earful from us for apparently not listening out.

With respect to responsibility for terrain clearance, I know what the book says but I will still continue, in controlled airspace, as an ATCO, to provide the terrain separation unless I clearly place that responsibility on the pilot. As pilots, you should most definitely keep good situational awareness and if you don't like the altitude assigned, question it. In 25 years of doing this, I've seen enough close calls because of varying expectations as to who provides terrain sep to ensure that I will do it for you because I usually know the terrain better than most of the pilots. Sadly, we don't routinely get your company procedure climb out information so we don't necessarily know what you're going to do after take off.

Take care!

[Dct no speed]

:bored: Im thinking hmmmmmm..... what if say under own navigation ,the odd donkey decide to let go and say the plane turned left and end up scaring the tourist or even worse the Big Boss in the Burj.....

Will the ATC be :

a) blamed
b) held responsible or
c) blamend and held responsible
for issueing the own navigation, knowing the a/c is below radar terrain? Just think of it before wacking them left next time.

To the drivers airframe out there: (specially those that "keep discovering")

You guys might want to listen to the encredibale RT used or rather not used by the guys flying the cargo and using your company's callsign. "Rogger" is used to acknowledge frequency changes:yuk: and "Copy" when instructed to change levels.:* The use of a callsign is normally an optional extra as I am a voice recognition specialist and always should know who is speaking to me without them using their callsign.

Luckily they only have boxes in the back, so at least like some of the operators around here, they don't insist on telling us how many passengers they have on board rather than giving us their levels. I only need the pax when we have to get the emergency guys out, so please don't tell us how many passengers you have ! I need the level to verify it within 200ft.

As for complying with ATC instructions: Do you ignore warning lights or sort of fly according to the ops manual? If a ATC instruction is not clear make sure don't just assume ! Do you realise that if you bust your level the ATC, that has 0 control over the plane gets suspended ? If another sector is effected by this level bust they also go to the bench! Replacements are a bit thin at the moment so check those levels boys.

To the gentleman that asked me for rwy 12 at 01h30 in the morning when 30 was in use ! You must be new around here ! Dubai is a bit busy for that and the fact that we only have one rwy at the moment makes your request seem a bit ,well ......RIDICULOUS !!!!!!!!!!

Always giving

Dct No Speed:ok:

[Trader]

Excellent thread. As a pilot I agree that some of the RT in the area is atrocious. Poor initial training and laziness is to blame I think.

Some ideas for controllers:

1. As has been mentioned, it is difficult to slow down and go down. If you tell us what you need more/first it would make life earsier. ie. "Descend to 5000'then slow to 190". Or the reverse.

2. There is nothing worse then descending like a bugger in anticipation of a base turn only to be left low 30 miles out (DXB this happens a lot). If you tell me that I am number 3 and you will turn me about 20 mile out I will co-ordinate my descent accordingly. The TCAS is a good tool for this as is having an ear out on the freq but many times doesn't always work.

[03Rnow30R]

Hi Trader

Just because we give a descent and speed instruction together, doesn't necesarilly mean we want you to do a particular one first. If I need you to, I will specify one. It just avoids an extra transmission, I can get you done in one transmission and move on to the next guy.

With regards the extended low level downwind. I understand your problem with that and I will make a point of giving a distance to base if I can, I do it already for an anticipated long downwind. We will however be forcing you down earlier on the downwind for reasons you may not be aware of, like SJ traffic head on descending above or DB traffic same on the straight in. It allows us to get you closer together using a bit of level seperation and then once you are pointing the same way descend the lot and keep the spacing with just speed control. It would be great to try to explain what we are up to every time and I am sure it would make situations make more sence, but as you know it isn't practical.

[Thridle Op Des]

Just a few items I would like to comment on in line with this excellent thread: firstly the issue of contacting Muscat ex Mumbai FIR, the Jeppesen charts we use in the discovering airline have two frequencies in a single box for the Muscat FIR, I have been here for 3 years and I still cannot remember which freq to use when I am inbound to MCT, maybe this is a personal failing, but the other guy who has been here a lot longer seems to have the same problem. I dial up one of the freqs in the hope that I have the right one - as mentioned, we can sometimes be a long way into MCT FIR before radio contact. (when a testy Austrailian voice informs me I am on the wrong freq). Can someone explain where the MCT freq sectors go, I will note them down for future reference.

Secondly the 744 freight arm of the discovering airline is not under our SOP umbrella and we have no influence over their actions.

A suggested indication of the freighters load and subsequent performance is their final level requested, which the UAE seems to have a unique requirement for this bit of info - a 744F planning for the high 30's will have three guys and a jam sandwich onboard, low 30's: 34 racehorses 20 tonnes of mangoes and a Bentley.

Last thing, coming into DXB last night onto 30R with an A343, two outer reversers inop and a landing weight of 185 tonnes (Max 190 tonnes), ATC has had a missed app in the previous 30 mins, we are asked at 4 miles to ensure we come off at M6. We decline because of the considerations above. Then asked to expedite to M4, which was done with plenty of room from following traffic. Tower obviously not happy with us, but if this is suddenly a requirement, please let us know in plenty of time, we can then let ATC what we can actually do. Another part of the problem with the A343 it the lack of brake fans. A short stop is possible, but we have very toasty brakes on stand with a long wait for the next crew departing, not an overriding consideration obviously, but we try to get the balance right.

[GlueBall]

Ditto on 74s at max ldg weight 285, [299 on some pure freighters].

...In order to avoid excessive brake cooling times [excess of 1-hour] for the next crew to be able to initiate a quick turn, we really need full length for landing, especially in summer during high ambient temps. :{

[divingduck]

Hey Thridle Op and anyone else that is interested....

The Muscat FIR boundary with Mumbai frequency is 123.95, that is for all points (we have multiple tranceivers) from RASKI all the way down to the Sanaa/Bahrain boundary.
128.15 can be used as a back up, as it has pretty good coverage, as does 124.7.
When entering the Muscat FIR from Karachi or Tehran FIRs, the freq is 128.15.

When entering via TOKRA (all Hajj charters take note) the freq is 124.7.

If you do wander in too far without calling, turn up the volume on 121.5, someone will be calling on it!

ATCO1962 mentioned that we are aware of the holes in coverage, but can you guys do us a favour? If we don't answer you straight away, give it a minute or so before making that call again. Many times we actually do answer as our receivers can hear your transmission, but you can't read us. Pretty frustrating to hear the "Muscat,Muscat,Muscat ever more stridently, but with hardly a pause between each attempt.
As I said with the transmitter siting, we may well be speaking to someone coming up from Africa at the Sanaa boundary, and it is well out of your VHF range. We have the dubious honour of having to dance around on the transmitters to talk to someone without everyone receiving a squeal as too many transmitters are selected in the one area.
Bear with us....

For a change I think this is a very worthwhile thread, well done all!

[Dct no speed]

:ok: Hey Thridle op Des,

Just a point on the area you need to vacate the rwy!

Enough space for the one landing behind is good ,but maybe the tower needed that space to get a plane airboune to. Not to mention crossings as well.
As things are at the moment It is very tight to get planes in and out of DBX with only one rwy. If you know you are heavy rather say so i.e "request full lenght or m4" than keep us hopefull that we might get one away in the gap?

It is a pitty that the cargo boys seem to be untouchable, maybe the odd "reset" from a fellow avaitor will set them straight and put a smile on the atc's face and who knows you might just get Dct No Speed for a good chirp!

cheers

DNS:ok:

[desertrose]

This is so nice to have this forum!:ok:

Trader, the problem we sit with at Dubai is that now that we have single rwy ops. Depending on the runway in use we need to give the tower between 8 and 10nm spacing on final to get a departure airborne. And unfortunatly we almost always have departures waiting to go. So, you do the math if there are 5 aircraft inbound, all of them more or less equal distance from the field this equate to a 40 nm final approach. In order to maintain the required 8nm spacing between the aircraft we unfortunatly need to reduce you early so we can match everybody's speed so that the gap on final does not erode. I don't like pulling your speed so early but sometimes I don't have choice:bored: By pulling your speed early it effects your descent profile, and sometimes we need you slow and we need you to get the height down (for reasons as explained by 03Rnow30R). Thanks for your input, next time I will try as you have suggested to say descent quickly and then reduce.....

[03Rnow30R]

Thridle, thanks for the info on the braking and cooling. Something we tend to forget.

Interesting to see there are some things coming out here that some ATC's were not aware of and I am sure the pilots can say the same. I can't comment too much on last nights experience you had, except to say if he wanted you off quick he must have been wanting to launch one in the gap. If you get handed to the tower just tell him you are planning for M4, so he can plan around it. If you need full length as most of the heavy freighters do, just let us know on approach, so we can create a big enough gap for the tower controller to use.
Cheers:ok:

[Thridle Op Des]

To all the ATCO's who replied with the really useful info - thanks a lot. It really makes such a difference to have a professional discussion on these things and it is obvious from the various interchanges that we are seriously overdue a good forum for airspace administrators and users in the ME. There appears to be a real gulf (pun not intended!) between what we as pilots think we should get in terms of an ATS and what ATC is able to provide. The flight experience for ATC as said previously has always been really valuable, I was fortunate to fly in the LHR TMA with Midland in a previous life, the skipper was an ex ATC from LATCC and he bought his mate along for a rotation to Belfast. There was such a good interaction with some real increased awareness of each other's environment. Sadly recent events have made jumpseat flights even for such a decent cause very difficult, even the chairman of the discovering airline is not allowed on the flight deck while in UK airspace for example - wether a dispensation could be realised from the GCAA for a short Gulf flight is up for debate (they seem to hand out dispensations on more trivial matters!!)

I would be personally interested in a visit to DXB App Control (I am not trying to ignore AUH and UAE Control, but I try to minimise my trips on the SZ road) Could someone PM for an intro, I would be happy to come in for a couple of hours at one of the peak times just to see the action, I would say that as a lowly effoh, the chance of me influencing changes our end is slightly less than nil, but still valuable for me.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

[tic]

Whilst we talking about Pilots/ATC, what can be done about the un-holy mess on HF in the Indian FIR especially from the Muscat area.? R/T discipline goes totally out the window, everyone is stepping, no jumping on everyone else. The result?, a huge bun-fight, just to get a word in.!!! Presumably the Indian ATC has our flight plans, secal codes etc, and presumably Muscat via tie-line gives them the FIR in,estimate. Because of the huge conjestion, surely it would be enough to give the Indian ATC on HF, the FIR IN time and FIR OUT time only. Also why all the read-backs from them? Don't know about you, but I'm sick of getting the squeaking and sqawking in my ears, when I dial an HF frequency. Surely there has to be a better way.

[popay]

tic, mate there's already a way for quite a wile, namely ADS. just log in on VABF and set auto position report and that's it. There's apparently still a requirement to contact Mumbai on HF, but if you do so and tell them that you have positive contact on ADS then it should be ok. However I don't understand why not to use such wonderful tool as standard way of comm? Maybe some Indian ATC guys can shed some light? If there's a reason that's fine, but if its just out of stupidity..........!!!! :sad:
Cheers.

[tic]

Sorry Popay. I don't have ADS, so it's HF for me, and seemingly 100's of others. Stipidity has nothing to do with it. If u want to insult, go ahead. I think, I asked a valid question. Be nice now!!

[popay]

tic, I didn't mean you, man!! I meant VABF ATC, since they have it why not to use it? I am also quite frustrated every time to call them and hear all this crap coming back. Its like 18th century. Sorry, wasn't meant to offend you.
Cheers.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Hi guys and girls. I would just like to thank all the pilots out there who have read this forum and made my job 10 times easier. :D


I still have the night shifts to go but so far over the last 1 1/2 cycles I have only had to pull my hair out over 2 a/c not making a requirement. The r/t has improved a fair bit too with only a few pilots per hour forgetting to tell me who they are and what their level is.

The forum actually works :ok:


So thanks to you all and I hope that you have seen an improvement in the ATC from both the center and app. I know this thread has seen big discussions in at work with all the controllers.


If there are any more questions you would like answered about ATC in the UAE or if you want to visit the centers then just post or pm and we will see what we can do.;)