VFR flying into large terminal airports

[Rugerdog]

I've always wondered - could a small aircraft such as a Cessna 152 fly into a major airport like LAX, ORD, DFW, JFK, without an IFR flight plan? If so, how would ATC accomodate a slow moving puddle-jumper amongst the heavy jets in the traffic pattern?

I was between at flight at DFW last week and noticed a 152 on the ramp, and it got me to wondering how something like this works.

Thanks!

[172driver]

Not a problem at all, doing it all the time. Typically you will fly to a VRP and then proceed to base/final after being cleared by ATC. Sometimes been asked to fly an 'offset' approach, in other words parallel to what would be the ILS in order to let some heavy stuff overtake. Just don't get nervous when you're in the flare and the controller calls 'traffic a 737 on 5 mile final, expedite' ;) In other words - don't linger on the runway ! Also, visualize the vortices of any preceding big jet and make sure you stay above its flightpath and land after its touchdown point.

Happy landings!:ok:

[Rugerdog]

Hey, thanks for the info!

[172driver]

Pleasure! Just make sure you are really familiar with the local maps, VRPs and holding areas. Flying spamcans into major airports quite often entails holding, sometimes repeatedly over various VRPs. Also make sure you have the next frequency set on the radio, as you may well be handed off by Approach to Tower at a pretty late stage. Enjoy the ride!

[Tarq57]

They may well want you to fly at a higher than accustomed speed. So it might be worth practising a flapless 110kt approach just to see what it's like getting the wee bird slowed down from short final.(If you have'nt done that already)

[ronnie3585]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't flying spam cans into large international airports. I've a mate that was charged nearly €300 for landing handling and parking in DUB.
Regardless of the expense mixing it with the big boys is something I look forward to doing. I'm planning a bit of a trip around Europe this summer, touch wood, and I would love to do a touch and go in Schipol in my 172.
Has anyone flown GA into Schipol?

[Aussie Andy]

€300 sounds over the top... I heard Schiphol is over €100 for example (I think?)

And you can apparently get into Manchester for something like £60 - which is nearly €100 :) Still, can be fun - see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207945

Andy :ok:

[172driver]

I'm planning a bit of a trip around Europe this summer, touch wood, and I would love to do a touch and go in Schipol in my 172. ?

Ronnie,
T&Gs are exactly what these airports are NOT for. In most cases you won't get a clearance for it and if you do, you only further the - already prevalent - notion of 'let's keep GA out'. By all means, fly into big aiports, I do it all the time and it's great. But please do everyone a favour and DO NOT waste the controllers' time !

That said, have a great trip around Europe :ok:

PS: you will find landing fees and handling charges to vary wildly, better to check in advance to avoid melting the plastic :{

[dublinpilot]

Landing charges in DUB are set by the regulator.

They can be as little as €1 or as much as €30 for a spam can, depending on the time of day, and day of the week.

What makes DUB so expensive is the compulsary handling, which is not designed to welcome spam cans.

dp

[ronnie3585]

Thanks for the advice 172Driver, duly noted. I can understand where you're coming from with regards to T&G's at large airports.
I was thinking of only doing a T&G for the sake of avoiding handling fees, but I can see now that the last thing they need is a little 172 pissing about the place. Looks like ill be stopping for a cuppa!
Cheers:ok:

[CDH]

Last time I went into Dublin Int'l a couple of years ago, Weston was closed for runway repairs.
They charged me £85 for 1 landing/ 1 departure & 3 nights parking.
As DP says its the compulsory handling that loads it.

[FlyingForFun]

172driver,

How does doing 1 tough+go "waste the controllers' time" any more than stopping for a cup of tea? Both of them involve 1 landing and 1 take-off - but in the case of the cup of tea, there's lots of other stuff in between.

If anything, it takes up less time, ties up the runway for a similar if not slightly less amount of time, and does not tie up the taxyways at all.

I agree that it is not the "done thing", but I can't think of a good reason for that, other than it's simply not something which people do on a regular basis. But I don't think it's a "waste the controllers' time", is it?

FFF
-----------------

[172driver]

I agree that it is not the "done thing", but I can't think of a good reason for that, other than it's simply not something which people do on a regular basis. But I don't think it's a "waste the controllers' time", is it?

FFF
-----------------
FFF
Well, the point here is not so much tying up the runway (or the airspace for that matter), but rather that you do so for what is most definitely a 'jolly'. I've heard from more than one controller that this p:mad:es them off. They feel their time is being wasted (and, IMHO quite rightly so), by someone who didn't need to fly into a busy environment but just wanted a look around. These guys have enough workload as it is and fitting a spam can into the arrivals flow is dispruptive enough.

Btw, markjoy, you're abolutley correct, expect to be asked to go as fast as you can.

ronnie,
I'm sure you'll enjoy the taxi and some Dutch hospitality :ok:

[S-Works]

schipol are very GA friendly, euro 80 for landing handling 3 nights parking. Vectored in. Superb service and well worth the visit.

I fail to see how handling GA is a waste of controllers time, we are all users and I expect the same level of service as the 737 or Airbus driver.

Almost every big airfield I have flown into have given me first class treatment. yes it is expensive but the infrastructore costs of a big airport are that much bigger.

[slim_slag]

rugerdog is in the States where the controllers are very approachable and have a good attitude. I've had an approach controller begging me to shoot a practice spamcan ILS into a busier airport than LHR because he had a bit of a lull in arrivals and he was getting bored.

So rugerdog, next time you are out and about call up approach control on the radio and ask them if they have time to answer a question, then ask them when is a good time to request a T&G or a full stop/taxi back. Or call them up by phone and ask if you can go look around, they are very happy to let you watch them at work.

It's not getting in that's the problem, it's getting out. You can easily end up being "number 21 for departure" and that costs a fair bit of money if you are paying on the Hobbs.

[egbt]

Certainly no problem when I visited Cape Town, sure no where near as busy as a major US or European airport but still impressive viewed from an old PA28-151.

Had to orbit downwind to let an MD80 in then a steeper than normal approach to avoid the wake, landing half way down the runway to clear quickly to let a 747 off. I'm sure his clearance was “after the PA28, line up” I wish I had been on tower freq rather than approach to hear it. :E

[flugholm]

>But please do everyone a favour and DO NOT waste the controllers' time !

Quite right! Unless they ask you to.

More than once did a controller ask me "And once you're at it, would you like to do a T&G or low pass?" when I only asked for a clearance for crossing a CTR.

I'm always happy to oblige! :D

[Tim_CPL]

I quite often fly into KDAL (Dallas Love) home base of Southwest Airlines. It is busy, and you do have to be on your toes, know where you are going and are generally expected to keep your speed up on final, as others have mentioned. No handling fees at DAL, but I believe DFW is not very GA friendly, and quite honestly it doesn't need to be, there are a ton of airports inside the DFW Bravo arispace, so you have lots of choice.
On the T&G's I once did two T&G's on Austin's 12,500 ft 17R/35L runway both flapless, at the controllers discretion, late at night! I also like to to to Grey AFB and do No-gyro approaches, or PAR approaches. They are very happy to help (they have currency requirements as well), but they won't let your wheels touch the ground, and it is out of the question if GWB is on the ranch!

- Tim

[Fuji Abound]

I struggle with the comments about wasting the controllers time, particularly if it is for a jolly

1. The controller is getting paid to do a job, and if you are paying the landing fee you are contributing to his salary. If the airport authority agrees you are paying your way commercially frankly the controllers views are pretty irrelevant.

2. There are an awful lot of passengers flying in and out of commercial airports on "jollies" - if you are going on holiday presumably you are on a jolly.

[quilmes]

Evening,
There is a wobbly little video of two British microlight trikes landing at Malaga to be found at;
http://www.aerialadventures.net/
specifically;
http://www.aerialadventures.net/videos/malagacrunch.wmv
(bear with the movie, it takes a couple of minutes to get near the airport).
These guys too say ‘keep your speed up, know where you are and talk sense on the radio’.
Rgds

[RatherBeFlying]

Landing on a 9000' runway after a 747 turning off on a taxiway half way down planning to continue to GA terminal at end, you want to remain well above until well past any exhaust.

There's quite a bit of turbulence behind the monsters when they have to make a 135 degree turn, even a hundred feet up.

[vector4fun]

I struggle with the comments about wasting the controllers time, particularly if it is for a jolly
1. The controller is getting paid to do a job, and if you are paying the landing fee you are contributing to his salary. If the airport authority agrees you are paying your way commercially frankly the controllers views are pretty irrelevant.

Perhaps it's due to the fact that ATC in different areas is operated and funded in different ways. In the U.S., Landing fees collected by the airport generally have nothing to do with controller salaries, which are paid in part by fuel and ticket taxes. Landing fees fund local airport operations and improvements. Controllers at major airports are Federal employees. At most larger airports, if you're properly rated and equipped, and have business at the large airports, you'll be handled appropriately. If you give the impression you're just "joyriding" though, and the field is busy, you'll often be turned down, which is completely in accordance with U.S. ATC procedure. Most airports in the U.S. have no "Landing" fees. There may be a fee for parking though, often waived if you purchase fuel at outrageous prices... :uhoh:

[Crashed&Burned]

It is total b*lls for ATC or anyone else to suggest that GA should not use large airports since GA is all about going on a 'jolly'.

90% of all aircraft passengers are flying on a 'jolly', usually holidays.

I can appreciate the operational difficulties of mixing small, low speed aircraft with large high speed ones, but let's lose the 'GA is just for fun' criticism. Virtually all flying falls under this heading. (And what's wrong with having fun anyway...?)

[HiFranc]

I have an apology: I'm not a pilot (though I'm thinking of becoming one). However, I can see it from the airport's point of view.

Whilst aviation can be fun, a major airport is a business. The holidaymakers are just passengers, the air traffic controllers' customers are the airlines. If an airline is delayed to slot in a GA plane, they can put a lot of pressure on both the airport and the air traffic control service. Don't forget that if an airline is severely delayed European Law means that airlines have to pay compensation.

You may be interested in:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/01/2006_05_thu.shtml
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4598786.stm

I suspect the fees NATS charges airlines is a lot more than the ones it charges GA pilots (so they have priority).

I remember hearing a discussion on the radio about traffic flow on roads. One of the things that was said was that the closer you are to capacity the bigger the impact of any disruption. I hear that most major airports operate at close to full capacity to maximise their profits.

I remember in the phone in for another You and Yours programme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/01/2006_01_tue.shtml
one of the contributers said that one of the major airports had at least 9 heavy jets stacked at any one time and improving the flow management of that would reduce the fuel/time airlines needed.

I hope I haven't annoyed anyone. All I'm just saying I can see the other side of the coin.

Ps.
You'll need Real Audio if you want to listen to the radio programmes concerned.

[flyboy6876]

As part of our training here in Western Australia, we had to come into Perth Airport (OK, not as busy as a European or American large airport;) ) to qualify us to fly in controlled airspace. This always involved a low pass (300ft pull out) rather than a touch and go. It was interesting the different perspective on that big old runway. Couple of times ended up orbitting while waiting for one of the big boys to come in.

Never had a problem with ATC, they were always friendly and keen to help. Only time I struggled was when there was an Asian trainee on and I was REALLY struggling to understand her.

[SkyHawk-N]

90% of all aircraft passengers are flying on a 'jolly', usually holidays. I can appreciate the operational difficulties of mixing small, low speed aircraft with large high speed ones, but let's lose the 'GA is just for fun' criticism. Virtually all flying falls under this heading. (And what's wrong with having fun anyway...?)

C&B. The difference being that the aircraft passengers going on 'jollies' are fickle customers of airlines with very critical shareholders. The last thing the airlines and also, probably, the authorities who are responsible for Air Transportation want is people like you and me flying around just having fun getting in the way of them meeting their targets. The Air Transport business is all about punctuality and efficiency, unfortunately we can get in the way of that. :(

Skyhawk.