IR to IMC

[Craggenmore]

I have read LASORS but here is my question!

My UK issued JAR-FCL SPA IR lapsed Summer 2005.

As I understand it, I can apply to the CAA to have an IMC rating added (for £76) onto my CPL (A) which will become valid for 25 months from the date of my initial IR test (Summer 2004,) which would therefore make it valid for a further 6 months or so from todays date.

Have I understood correctly, and if so, is this addition possible?

Many thanks

Craggs.

[BEagle]

There are self-contradictory statements in LASORS - in one place it states that if you have a valid ICAO IR you can apply for an IMC Rating based on the date of your last revalidation without requiring any exam or test - yet elsewhere it states that if you have a multi-pilot IR then you need an IMC flight test....

A change which someone in the CAA sneaked into LASORS 2005 without consultation. Now, as the IMC Rating is a national rating, any changes to exisiting national legislation involving additional expense require a Regulatory Impact Assessment.

Which the CAA didn't conduct....

'tis bolleaux and, at my request, the Head of Personnel Licensing has directed his people to sort it out. The whole problem stems from the fact that, in their precipitate haste to adopt JAR-FCL, the CAA forgot to include the embedded IMC Rating privileges in CAA-issued JAR-FCL professional licences which had always been included in UK CPL(A) and ATPL(A) licences. But you won't hear them admitting that!

Watch this space!

[Lembrado]

BEagle

I have a similar question:

My SPA IR lapsed in June last year, as did my UK IMC rating. I too would like IMC privileges, but can't afford to pay the CAA fee. Now the question - I have my LPC/OPC next week on the B757, can the TRE sign to renew the IMC.

Thanks mate, hope it makes sense.


Oh, I tried to find it in LASORS but to no avail.



Lem

[BEagle]

Lembrado,

Under current rules, no. The CAA has got itself into a muddle over the whole multi-pilot IR / IMC rating privileges business. I will be rattling their cage again next week.

You will need to fly an IMC Rating revalidation flight test. Should take less than an hour. There is no 'CAA fee' to pay if your licence already has 'IMC Rating' on the National Ratings page - even if it has expired.

I must admit that I'm a bit surprised that anyone flying a B757 can't afford an IMC revalidation flight test examiner's fee (£80-ish) plus an hour's ac hire.

[Craggenmore]

Have I understood correctly, and if so, is this addition possible?


Thanks for the heads up Beagle but can you confirm my original post if you know?

Many thanks.

[BEagle]

Sorry, Craggs. In one section LASORS states:

'An applicant who holds an ICAO IR or military
green Instrument Rating (Aeroplanes) and has
passed an IR test in the 24 months preceding the
date of application for the IMC Rating will be
exempt from taking the initial IMC Flight Test and
written examination.'

yet later it states:

'The holder of a JAR-FCL professional aeroplane
licence with a valid multi-pilot IR(A) is not automatically
entitled to fly using the privileges of an IMC Rating in
single-pilot aeroplanes. They will be required to pass a
IMC Flight Test and apply to PLD for a separate IMC
Rating endorsement.'

which is something that has been changed without consultation or a Regulatory Impact Assessment, for it used to state in LASORS 2004:

'The holder of a JAR-FCL professional aeroplane
licence with a valid multi-pilot IR(A) is not
automatically entitled to fly using the privileges of
an IMC Rating in single-pilot aeroplanes. They will
be required to obtain a separate IMC Rating
endorsement on the basis of their most recent
multi pilot IR proficiency check or skill test. In this
case, the IMC Rating will be valid for a period of 25
months from the date of the IR(A) skill test and will
not need to be revalidated if the IR remains valid. If
the IR(A) lapses an IMC revalidation flight test is
required.'

Hence I don't know and this is why I have asked Head of PLD to sort out the confusion.

And yet holders of old UK CPL licences could have flown 100% VFR for 30 years and still have automatic IMC Rating privileges which never have to be revalidated....

[Craggenmore]

No doubt it will take a few years of head scratching before anything is sorted :}

Thanks again!

[Lembrado]

BEagle

It's funny that the more money I seem to earn the less I have to spend! Missus, house ect....


L

[Whopity]

On 6th March 97 a PA34 crashed at Southend folowing an artificial horizon failure. As a result of that accident the AAIB placed a requirement on the UK CAA to review the test requirements for revalidation of Instrument qualifications. The SPA IR was modified to include a limited panel VFR section as a direct result of the AAIB recomendation. The IMC revalidation allready contained a limited panel section but; the MPA IR revalidation does not.

These changes occurred at exactly the same time as the introduction of JAR-FCL which also prohibited the privileges of a MPA IR from being exercised on a SPA Class or Type. At that time all SPA Instrument revalidations included a LP element.

It appears that various exemptions have been granted since that date that failed to acknowledge the AAIB recommendations and do not include any LP.

[Keygrip]

Should that not read "Attitude Indicator" on such a modern aircraft?

[BEagle]

I spoke with tha CAA IREs at the time of that policy change and they told me that AL failure would be assessed by oral questioning in future MPA IRs.... I described how we trained for it in the RAF VC10 simulators following the Korean 747 crash at STN and they were more than happy that we were taking such a proactive stance!

But the fact remains that holders of UK CPLs never need to revalidate IMC Ratings, whereas holders of UK-issued JAR-FCL CPLs currently do even though they may have a current MPA IR.......

[RVR800]

I understood that the UK national CPL(A) had a lifespan of 10 years

At the end of that 10 year period a successful IMC test has to be completed to ensure that the next 10 years can be flown (safely!) without any further instrument tests.

The rules are inconsistent to say the least

[Whopity]

Don't confuse Rules with Privileges!

[FormationFlyer]

I understood that the UK national CPL(A) had a lifespan of 10 years
At the end of that 10 year period a successful IMC test has to be completed to ensure that the next 10 years can be flown (safely!) without any further instrument tests.
The rules are inconsistent to say the least

The 10 year span is merely a paperwork exercise. Having renewed my own UK CPL recently I was not required to take any further test. The privileges are inherent in the licence - no testing is required to keep the licence current.

Do you have any ANO/FCL references, as I can not find any documentation for the rules you suggest exist?

[Craggenmore]

OK - so my JAR-CPL(A) needs the IR part renewing.......

but Formationflyer........

are you saying that as I still have 3 years to run on my JAR-CPL (A), I still have 3 years IMC left? ie) like the inherent night privilege within the JAR-CPL (A)

[BEagle]

NO! Only the old UK CPL(A) has embedded IMC privileges, not the CAA-issued JAR-FCL CPL(A).

[PSF2J]

The issue here lies with MPA IR. The IMC is an SPA rating. It can therefore be renewed as part of a SPA-IR test but not MPA. Therefore for single crew you will need to take the test in a light aircraft.

Beagle, as for wages on B757s, why the hell is it any of your business!:mad:

[BEagle]

Whereas if you hold a UK ATPL, you never need to revalidate your IMC privileges.

Typical tin people-tube:

LHS pilot: UK ATPL issued 30 years ago. Last flew SPA 30 years ago. Decides to take up recreational SEP flying - does not need IMC Rating test.

RHS pilot: JAA ATPL issued last week. Last flew SPA 2 hours ago. Last SPA IR expired 13 months ago - must fly IMC Rating revalidation, costs around £250.

Which for a poor, hard-up B757 driver is obviously not easy.

But where's the logic?

[FormationFlyer]

One interesting item is that one chap I was speaking to yesterday (airline capt) - was forced from a UK ATPL onto a JAR ATPL by his company (wont pay for UK licence renewals anymore).

Having now lost his non-expiring IMC privileges he approached the CAA - who said he had to flight test before they would them him back again - but they would give him the non-expiring IMC privleges - under the auspices of grandfather rights - and that it was stated that anyone going to JAR wouldn't lose privleges...

He is now awaiting further comment from the CAA as really this should be done without flight test and without charge....but thats the CAA for you...

[DFC]

FormationFlyer,

Your friend should not have been required to hand back their UK ATPL to get a JAA licence. They should have had a JAA licence issued on the basis of their UK licence.

Thus your friend should now have two valid licenses - A UK ATPL licence and a JAA ATPL licence. So your friend can keep their UK ATPL valid and obtain the included IMC privileges.

Regards,

DFC

[FormationFlyer]

FormationFlyer,
Your friend should not have been required to hand back their UK ATPL to get a JAA licence. They should have had a JAA licence issued on the basis of their UK licence.
Thus your friend should now have two valid licenses - A UK ATPL licence and a JAA ATPL licence. So your friend can keep their UK ATPL valid and obtain the included IMC privileges.
Regards,
DFC

He didnt hand it back - it was expiring, but he would have to pay for the ATPL renewal himself - which one might consider a small penalty - but it still means more payout every 5 years doesnt it?

[BEagle]

CAA Head of Personnel Licencing has agreed to give the IMC credit for multi-pilot IR(A) issue further consideration.

I felt a bit guilty about putting him on the spot publicly today. Sorry, Graham!

[Craggenmore]

What about Single Pilot CPL or IR holders? It was grandfather rights for life if it was a UK issued one :ouch:

[BEagle]

JAR-FCL CPL(A) and ATPL(A) licences do not have
in-built IMC privileges. The holder of a JAR-FCL
professional aeroplane licence without a valid IR(A)
who wishes to obtain an IMC Rating must complete the
following:

i) 5 hours of applied dual instrument instruction in
accordance with the IMC Rating syllabus and;

ii) pass an initial IMC Rating Flight Test.

The holder of a UK issued JAR-FCL professional
aeroplane licence with a valid single-pilot IR(A) does
not require a separate IMC Rating endorsement as the
privileges are included within the IR(A) privileges. If,
however, you wish to obtain an IMC Rating you will
need to apply to PLD for endorsement. The normal IMC
rating issue fee will apply unless application is made in
conjunction with an Instrument Rating (IR). In this case,
the IMC Rating will be valid for a period of 25 months
from the date of the IR(A) skill test and will not need to
be revalidated if the IR(A) remains valid. If the IR(A)
lapses an IMC revalidation flight test is required.