Self Check-In Machines [Archive]

apaddyinuk

26th Jan 2006, 10:49

Its all in the approach! I personally prefer the human touch but at the same time the self service thingys are the way of the future whether we like it or not. The big problem is with human nature, people dont like trying new things so if we are to get people to use the machines we will literally have to force them into trying it. Eventually the customer will realise the benefits and wont be afraid of it anymore. If I were you I would encourage passengers to use the machines as much as possible, Self Service Machines are still a new thing but give it another few years and you will be surprised if people actually approach a checkin desk for anything other than to drop a bag off!!!

CherokeeDriver

26th Jan 2006, 11:24

Bloody brilliant idea. BA self-check in is brilliant - especially if you have your executive card with you! Best self check in I have ever had was at San Diego with NorthWest. I had WAAAAYYYY to much baggage but a combo of the great system and a very kind employee meant the whole process took less than 1 minuite. Which was better than the baggage arrival at LGW which took 1.5 hours....:{

firemac

26th Jan 2006, 12:27

I came through CDG 2B for BA flight to BHX this morning for first time in about 12 months. BA seems to be relying almost exclusively on the machines now rather than traditional desks. A row of about 10 or 12 machines was monitored by one (very nice) BA lady with one other on a single ticket/enquiry desk nearby. Guess you can also check-in traditionally at the gate (one very bored lass at gate B33 check-in desk) but as the Gendarmes aren't inclined to let you through passport control without a boarding card, I'm not sure how the system copes with pax's who can't or won't use the machines.

Personally I like the machines & use them whenever I can particularly as they allow you to beat the normal check-in queues such as the Swiss desks @ Zurich, which seem to have perpetually long, slow queues.

radeng

26th Jan 2006, 12:31

However, checking in with America West in San Diego when you're connecting to BA 288 from Phoenix to Heathrow sends the machine into a wobbly. So when you've done that, you don't waste your energy the next time you arrive there to do the trip.
Personally, I prefer the nice, friendly, check in staff that BA have, rather than a bl**dy machine. But maybe the Gold card makes a difference..

slim_slag

26th Jan 2006, 12:47

The machine is designed to do 'a wobbly' as you have an international segment. Was talking to a LAX gate agent recently who said that they hope to have them all linked up with Immigration's passport/fingerprint/photo machines, so when you check yourself out of the US you will get your international boarding card.

FlyingConsultant

26th Jan 2006, 14:19

I love the machines. LH were the first ones, years ago, for domestic flights out of FRA. Now there are banks of them everywhere, including some that weigh your luggage and print the tags. You put them on yourself and put the luggage on the belt. (LH was even talking about sending a bar code to your cell phone for check-in and getting rid of paper completely somewhere around 2000. Not sure where that stands)

The U.S. was a late adopter. On the other hand, now you can check in online for most U.S. airlines, which I love even more. I travel mostly with cabin luggage only, so this is brilliant. The downside is that if there is a problem (say, a one-way first class ticket bought the same day that flags you as a potential security risk) you have to get in line - and the lines seem longer now that they cut down on staff. But by and large, I really like the machines/online check in.

Some of the machines now even read your passport, so you can check in on international flights. Memory is blurred, but I believe it was Continental that allowed that? Not sure

Happy flying

bealine

26th Jan 2006, 16:02

I'm biding my time. The days of Self Service kiosks and On-Line Check In are numbered - there will be a major incident arising one day from the airlines' naiivety in believing that (a) a passenger wouldn't dare try to check in someone else (b) a passenger wouldn't dare check in baggage for a flight on which he wasn't going to travel and (c) that iris scanning technology is foolproof (it isn't)!!!

When (and I say when not if) something goes wrong, humankind are going to be recruited by the aviation world as never before!!!

FlyingConsultant

26th Jan 2006, 16:13

(a) a passenger wouldn't dare try to check in someone else

so what? That's why there is ID check at the scurity and sometimes the gate. And don't tell me that a gate agent is better at checking ID than security. Both give the pictures the same short look

(b) a passenger wouldn't dare check in baggage for a flight on which he wasn't going to travel

so what? yes it will cause delays as the luggage is taken off the plane since the passenger is not on board. Happens to me once a month anyways. Not an issue as manifest is compared to luggage

(c) that iris scanning technology is foolproof (it isn't)!!!

irrelevant for this specific discussion. Check-in is before ID check. Relevant if anybody ever replaces in-person security with iris scanning only, which I find unlikely

Ozzy

26th Jan 2006, 17:14

But do these machines issue upgrades? Insert your card nicely, smile at the screen, be polite when pressing buttons and yer never know.....:}

Ozzy

bealine

26th Jan 2006, 17:28

Flying Consultant - with respect

All this self-service rubbish was around in the late 1960's (without computers) at Gatwick. Passengers even pulled off their own (non-automated) baggage tags and tagged their own bags before dropping them on a conveyor! What immediately halted the concept was the hijackings of the early 1970's!!!

Ryanair and EasyJet have only gained strength because of 09/11. their meteoric ascendency without this disaster would not have happened - and with it the desire to run headlong along the automation route without thinking of the real consequences!!!

You pick holes in my arguments - (a) I can't say a lot about, except that security then don't have a clue about who is running around airside and what they're up to (b) Baggage regularly travels on some airlines (mainly US carriers) when the passenger has failed to turn up at the gate - happens every other week here at Gatwick, so who are you kidding??? (c) Plans are afoot (and trials at Heathrow are beginning with airport staff) to enable "FastTrack" Iris scanning for Elite Frequent Flyers where security personnel would no longer be checking identity - so not irrelevant, just a few years away!!!

You believe what you want - the next hijacking or major incident (and most airlines have already let their guards down) will put self service machines firmly back in the warehouses!!!

FlyingConsultant

26th Jan 2006, 17:45

Interesting about the Iris scan, that would indeed worry me. But I fail to see what it has to do with the check-in machines. Presumably somebody can check in with a check-in agent and still send somebody else to the gate, yesno? Only ID check at security can prevent that.

As for (b), I presume you refer to suitcases travelling alone before the passenger has travelled, not stray luggage that has to be sent after the traveller because somebody messed up or connection times were to short. Also interesting but not suprising. And nothing a check-in agent can do against somebody who checks-in luggage and then does not show up.

Bottom-line for me: There is no security difference between a check-in agent and a machine. The agent would take the luggage and check it in. Same as the machine. Whether or not that person, a different person, or no person shows up at the gate is not in the hands of the check-in agent. Pretending a check-in agent is more secure than a machine is just using the fear of travelers to secure jobs. Rather have more, better paid and trained people at security screening so it is better and faster instead of adding folks at the check-in

bealine

26th Jan 2006, 18:18

The essential difference for me, check-in agent vs machine, is the security element. You perceive no difference, yet I do!

The check-in agent is better equipped, and better able to identify a passenger who is unfit to fly through illness, drink, drugs or underlying mental impairment. A harrassed (and often bullied) Gate Team pressed by their managers to achieve an on-time departure at all costs may very easily fail to spot (or choose to fail to spot) a passenger who could well be a hazard to the safety of the flight!

Security staff are also not solely to be relied upon in this regard - if you observe the average security firm in this country (Britain) (whether airport related or not) the majority of security staff are middle-aged ex-servicemen or elderly people with a good employment record (but just looking to fill the gap between redundancy from their last job and retirement!) The airport security guys are used to being ridiculed by the airline management if they do bring something to attention and are more being used to look pretty and instil some confidence into the travelling public than anything else!!! (But, of course, first and foremost they are to look after the security of the airport shops!!!)

Yes - BTW - I am referring to bags travelling ahead of the passenger. US carriers at Gatwick are doing this on a regular basis, both inbound and outbound!!! I am aware of this because of our connecting passengers where, very often, we receive the bags but the passenger hasn't actually travelled!!! On talking to their baggage agents, it transpires it is a regular occurrence and, in any case, it is perfectly permissible for US carriers to allow this for "Stand By" pax - the FAA and "Homeland Security" doesn't seem to have an issue with this!!!

Now - what I say about self-service is only my opinion, and your opinion is your own! Only time will tell which of us is right!!!

Red Snake

26th Jan 2006, 19:05

Internet check-in is also becoming increasingly common. Check in at home on the computer, select seat, print boarding pass. At the airport, straight through security to the gate. I think it's excellent - instead of having to arrive at the airport ages in advance to join the queue & hope there's still a halfway decent seat left, I can wake up in the morning knowing my seat & that I only have to arrive at the airport in time to clear security before final call.

As for security - isn't that what the security check is for - confirming passenger & ticket identity & ensuring safe & suitable to fly? If it's done properly, it doesn't need to be done twice, & if it does need to be done more than once, is twice enough? Why not 10 times, just to be sure? Let's have aisles & aisles of security checks between the entrance & the gate!

Judging by the number of fellow passengers I see clutching computer printed boarding cards, I'd say the average business traveller doesn't want to be bothered with check-in desks. Internet check-in or a self service kiosk is increasingly the norm. The desk will still exist, in smaller numbers, to deal with families, groups, and problems. But this really isn't new - BA, KLM, SAS & the like have had self service check-ins for years & they've always been popular. Now even Ryanair has heralded in a brave new world of self service!

I suppose only the charters will remain - how could anyone ever start a bucket & spade trip without a 2 hour wait at the airport check-in desk and the certain knowledge that any available seat will be a 4 hour exercise in pain management?!

apaddyinuk

26th Jan 2006, 20:35

BEAline, I always enjoy your posts as you are incredibly informative and make a lot of sense, however, on this subject I feel you are perhaps over reacting...or are you just anti self service as it takes away jobs??? This would be an understandable assumption.
If the gate staff are doing their job and checking ID's against the boarding passes then there should be no problem with self service. A terrorist could still check in with a "human" and still get on the plane no problem what soever because a well trained terrorist will not show any signs of fear and will appear perfectly normal. They can also travel under assumed identities!!! And even if someone else did check in for the terrorist at the desk and handed over a boarding pass, it is still down to the gate agent to ensure that the person has valid photo ID at the gate, if that fails, then someone is not doing their job correctly!!!

bealine

26th Jan 2006, 21:17

If the gate staff are doing their job and checking ID's against the boarding passes then there should be no problem with self service.

I admit, I am biased because I do want to save jobs in my chosen industry. However, I do speak from experience when I say that a similar scheme in the 1960's ended in tears with the 1970 hijackings!!! I have to say BA does things "by the book" but some airlines and their handling agents actually "bully" their gate staff into getting "on time departures" which leads to slipshod practises (like not checking ID's as well as they might!!!)

Even at BA, we are put under a lot of pressure to get flights away on time - especially since this bluddy EU compensation ruling! I have been guilty on a few occasions of not checking ID and, let's face it, how often are you asked for an ID on a British Airways Domestic Service???

lexxity

26th Jan 2006, 21:49

There is no requirement for ID checks at the gate on a domestic service in the UK. A check in agent is far more efficent at utilising their "sixth sense" than a machine. When was the last time a machine apprehended a suspicious pax?

I do not like self service machines and agree with Bealine that the time will come when real people are required.

kjsaw

27th Jan 2006, 05:12

In general I like having access to these machines, alot of my travel is withing europe on SAS, so with just handbagage, my frequent flyer card, and the express security lane it gets me, I can move from the ticketing all to the departure area in under 10 minutes.

I had to fly AF last week, and tried to use their machines, The line at ARN for my flight to CDG was huge, and I have no status with skyteam anymore, so i tried the ticketing machine to get through quicker, the damn thing ate my ticket... The hovering agent opened the machine, and fished it out, then pointed me towards the buiness class check-in. Brilliant stuff. Still a 10 minute checking instead of the 30 minutes it looked like the line would take.

apaddyinuk

27th Jan 2006, 06:17

Bealine, I too have worked on the ground and I too must admit that I am sure I have forgotten to check ID's from time to time...however, its just one of those grey areas. The security element of our job is to check ID's and ask security questions...it indemnifies us. What if the pilot "forgot" to lock the flight deck door, or "forgot" to select an all important safety related switch in the flight deck (dont you love my technical terms!?!?!)!!
All it takes is for one situation to occur and the blame will not be placed on the Self Service machine but on the gate agent who did not do their job because they were busy concentrating on getting the flight out on time instead of their number one priority of concentrating on safety and security!!!
Its all about priorities and I dont think anyone could reprimand you for being thorough even here in BA. Im sure you remember a number of years ago the incident of the BAC1-11 that blew a flight deck window and had its captain partially sucked out the window. Well this was down to a less than thorough engineer who in a rush to dispatch the aircraft on time did not place the correct bolts into the window frame. Did the person who was pushing him for punctuality get the blame??? No, the poor engineer did.
Apologies for bad spelling!!! :confused:

Final 3 Greens

27th Jan 2006, 06:18

but i would like to know what passengers think about this approach.

If holding a C or J ticket, I would tell the agent (politely, but assertively) to stop wasting my time and to check the bag in. As a premium passenger I would expect to receive personal service if I wanted it and I would be arriving from a long and hard working day, with not a lot of time to spare ...... that's why I would have bought the business class ticket.

If on a Y (when I'm spending my own funds), I would use the machine (so long as there was a bag drop facility that saved queueing time.)

If your employer is really serious about automating the process, they ought to take the time and trouble (like BA) to develop an online check in, which I use regularly, since it really does dave time and trouble (in Y, C or J)

apaddyinuk

27th Jan 2006, 06:38

[QUOTE=Final 3 Greens] I would tell the agent (politely, but assertively) to stop wasting my time and to check the bag in. QUOTE]

Do you realise how awful that sounds??? You may suggest you are being polite but that is still bloody rude!!! :\

Final 3 Greens

27th Jan 2006, 08:22

Apaddyinuk

I couldn't really give a monkeys what you think it sounds like. I was responding to the original posters question, which was quite clear in scope.

The message from the agent is also rude (I won't give you personal service), if polite and justifies an assertive push back.

Note that I wouldn't take the same tack on a cheaper ticket (I would seek out the machine and regard it as a benefit for a cheap ticket holder), but if I've paid a premium the service, I damn well expect to receive it and redirecting to a machine is a lunatic way to handle a premium passenger.

Your employer demonstrates a strong understanding of how to differentiate premium passengers and to provide an appropriate level of service, thats one of the major reasons why BA is profitable in a hard market. Virgin are also aces in this respect.

You really ought to engage brain before posting.

apaddyinuk

27th Jan 2006, 08:27

Hmmm, another pleasant human!! Its easier to be polite and mannerly! But sure, thats another thread altogether! Another problem with modern day travel...people are ruder to one another!!! :\
And I am not talking about my employer, My employer has nothing to do with my opinion on how one person treats another!!!

Paul Wilson

27th Jan 2006, 09:19

Politeness breeds politeness, rudeness breeds rudeness

I'm with F3G on this, if I approach a check in desk on a premium ticket, and the person on that desk tells me to go away and use the machine, despite being perfectly able to check me in, the person being rude is the Check in agent, (or perhaps their employer). Because the check in agent is telling me that their time is more important than mine (i.e. you stood in line to see me, I could check you in in 2 minutes, but go over there please I can't be bothered) that is what it would feel like as a passenger.

Final 3 Greens

27th Jan 2006, 09:35

Then paddy, why don't you start another thread?

This one is not about human interrelationships, it is about what pax think of the airline policy.

As to whether I am a pleasant person, you are making a highly subjective judgement based on a reaction to a very narrow situation, where the appropriate level of service is denied. You have no idea of what type of person I am.

I agree that it is easier to be polite and cooperative, so I suggest that you develop your understanding of human conflict resolution and then apply some rationality to the situation.

You could read up on the Thomas Kilman conflictmodel and in particular the five positions in dealing with conflict.

You will see that collaboration is the best way to deal with a situation and that means treating the conflict as a joint problem to solve. I this instance, there is no joint problem, I've paid for a premium service and the airline doesnt wish to provide it - the airline is causing the conflict.

Therefore the agent is engaging in behaviour known as competing, where their desire to achieve their objectives is greater than their desire to be cooperative.

Of course, I could engage in accomodating behaviour, cooperate and not satisfy my needs and just accept the rebuff and meekly trundle off to machine, but as I've paid a serious amount of money, why should I?

There is also a position known as compromising where each party gives up something, but the scenario has been set up as a zero sum game, so its strictly a win/lose outcome.

I could (in theory) adopt avoiding behaviour by not using the airline again, but that does't help with the here and now, so the only effective response is to adopt competing behaviour and say no. This creates an impasse, which is quickly solved by the agent checking the bag in.

So the cause of the conflict is the airline adopting a policy which impacts on the premium customer and the agent is the instrument of application. If the agent chooses to work for the airline, then they must deal with the consquences of the policies applied, just as I do in my work.

As the old saying goes, ''it isn't personal, its business'', but I absolutely would assert myself ... and to avoid any doubt, assertiveness is about satisfying one's concerns and should not be confused with aggression.

agent x

27th Jan 2006, 09:50

================:zzz:======================

apaddyinuk

27th Jan 2006, 13:18

I blame the parents personally!!! :}

Final 3 Greens

27th Jan 2006, 13:53

Paddy

It seems to me that you are not able to construct a meaningful reply or counter argument, so I'll just accept that you're probably not one of life's great thinkers and leave it at that.

PAXboy

27th Jan 2006, 15:55

If Person A does the full check in (Agent or Machine) and Person B goes to the aircraft with photo ID that matches them and all relevant paperwork matching - how do they get stopped? Does it make any difference if Person A is checked in by Agent or Machine and Person B checked onto the a/c by Agent or Machine? How easy would it be for this to happen? Why do it? It may be presumed that the check-in Agent has more time to suss out the Pax and cross check IDs with a database. The 'security' check is only that your face is vaguely similar to the one on the photo in the passport.

When travelling through MAN about five years ago, they took your picture when you checked in and that was cross referenced at the gate (not the a/c door obviously as it was sssumed that it was secure from the gate to the a/c). Is anyone else doing that now?

striparella

27th Jan 2006, 19:53

I like 'em, because as a check in agent, it limits the amount of times you're asked the same question about an upgrade over and over.

My airline also forces people to use them - not in the extreme of the OP but enough that people complain. Pax just like asking questions or having the human touch to confirm whatever it is they're thinking about flying.

Some pax genuinely don't want to use them and i don't think it's fair to force them through just to make numbers up!

bafanguy

27th Jan 2006, 20:36

striparella

27th Jan 2006, 21:51

[QUOTE=striparella]I like 'em, because as a check in agent, it limits the amount of times you're asked the same question about an upgrade over and over.
QUOTE]
I like them because I don't have to talk to a PO'd check-in agent who treats non-revs like dirt.

No-one in my airline talks to non-revs like a piece of dirt - we've all been stuck some where and needed the help of the check in agent.

If you're entitled to an upgrade as a non rev like i am, whats to be pissed about?

You sound bitter and twisted to me!!!

ptr120

27th Jan 2006, 22:24

an interesting thread.

Iregularly fly BA, and usually check-in on line. However, i don't print my own bording pass - i pay enough that the airline can print one for me thanks very much!
I go to the airport and need to do 3 things: print boarding pass, print e-ticket receipt, and dropp off bag. Am I going to go to the machine first (as directed by the floating member of staff) followed by the 'fast' bag drop desk, or am I going to go directly to the propper check-in desk where I can also ask questions: is my flight on time?, what about my connection? have you loaded my special meal? - particularly when the queue for the fast bag drop is usually longer than that for the real check-in desk!

lexxity

27th Jan 2006, 22:26

bafanguy who has treated you like a piece of dirt? That is just not acceptable. I would never do that because I've been stuck and needed the help of a fellow airline employee to make a destination.

apaddyinuk

28th Jan 2006, 05:06

Finals, Just to satisfy your need for a response, I was just going to let it settle but obviously you are of the type who prefers to throw insults so despite my better judgement here we go!!!

It is the nature of my job, I deal with people who are unhappy with an aspect of the service which my company provide on a regular basis be it a delay, poor check in experience or poor boarding areas etc. I personally feel a lot of it is down to people having either too high expectations to the point of being unrealistic OR they are simply looking for a problem and are unable to be reasonable. I do my best for them but if they wish to move on to another airline then there is little I can do as I feel they will have made up their mind long before they have brought their problem to my attention. I certainly will not do something beyond my means in order to win back their custom as the company would not want me to. I feel it leaves a bad presedence for future experiences. It is not a case of he who shouts loudest unless I particularly feels the matter merits it.
In theory I do agree with you, if you have paid a large sum of money...then yes, you do deserve the service. However, if it then becomes the companies policy to provide its service in a particular manner than so be it. You may not like it but the company is a company and it must do what is in its best interest to remain economical. Its not like they are asking you to pull your finger nails out.
Now if one cannot be encouraged to try something new then things will never change. If perhaps the checkin agent walked over to the self service machine with you, talked you through the process and then tagged your luggage up for you, would you be happy???
I dont think that by getting assertive with the person behind the desk, which always develops a small degree of unneeded stress for both sides, much is achieved. If the company wishes its agents to encourage customers to use the self service machines then try and appreciate this as they have a job to do. I am sure as an intelligent business man you can see where the company is coming from in its attempt to cost save, nobody likes it but its a sign of the age we live in. If a check in agent does actually tell you to bugger off and use the machine...then there is a problem. As you can tell I hate any form of rudeness to fellow humans! In this case USE YOUR FEET and walk to another airline next time. I would, I certainly would not get into the act of throwing my weight around.
Now I know the company I work for are not forcing this upon you at present. But perhaps it worries you to learn that T5 will indeed have a greatly reduced number of checkin desks with large numbers of SSCI's throughout the departures hall. Even its premium check in area is to have lots of them. Other things in the pipeline include not allowing check in agents or gate agents perform seat changes or entertain upgrades, all in an attempt to drill it into the customer that the human touch is of no advantage. It will always be slightly different for the premium customer, but the emphasis is there to encourage the use of Self Service whether we like it or not and there is really no point in getting hot headed about it.

Now, thats my two cents worth, no doubt you will ridicule it, and I do apologise for my poor spelling and grammer, it is almost 6am and Iv been up all night!!! I probably wont reply again as I feel enough has been said already and I do actually have a life outside of pprune!!! :}

Avman

28th Jan 2006, 16:26

What worries me with all this automation everywhere in all industries (I'm an old cynical fart by the way), is that once all these jobs have gone there will be mass unemployment, no money and (for instance) no more passengers to use these automated check-in thingies! I do enjoy the option to check-in at home or at an airport self-check-in kiosk, but I do also seriously worry at the outcome of the unemployment it's creating.

silverelise

28th Jan 2006, 18:40

striparella

28th Jan 2006, 22:27

How do these machines weed out people attempting to check in who are too drunk to fly? How do they check that you are under your baggage limit? How do they check that you are who you say you are by looking at your passport?
As you might be able to tell, I've never used a self check in machine before, so I'm just trying to think of all the benefits that the human element of the checkin process provides, and wondering what we lose by these machines or how much later in the process undesirable pax can get before being weeded out.

Well ay my airline you still are security profiled whether you check in using the kiosk or an agent. They sort out the passport/visa stuff.

If you've got a bag you have to go to a bag drop desk - that's when you sort out whether you've got excess.

The only trouble it causes it when sneaky US passport holders try and get their 15kg suitcase on as hand luggage as they don't think it's too heavy to check in, but we catch them at the gate.

And if you're drunk? You probably wouldn't be able to use the machine! Most sober passengers can't.

PAXboy

29th Jan 2006, 00:04

How do these machines weed out people attempting to check in who are too drunk to fly?Perhaps ... If you cannot check yourself in at a machine, and are too drunk to operate it and respond to it's questions in a certain time, then you are too drunk to travel? :}

bealine

29th Jan 2006, 10:27

Well ay my airline you still are security profiled whether you check in using the kiosk or an agent. They sort out the passport/visa stuff.

Are you 100% certain??? Doesn't the odd one or two slip the net??? I'll bet you don't do 100% security profiling - no one does!!!

If you are as thorough as you claim, then your airline must be making losses because your costs would be astronomical compared to that of your competitors!!! Self-service machines are there to cut staff numbers - not increase the bureacracy of 100% security profiling!!!

Final 3 Greens

29th Jan 2006, 19:09

Paddy

"If perhaps the checkin agent walked over to the self service machine with you, talked you through the process and then tagged your luggage up for you, would you be happy???"

On a C/J ticket, no. On a discounted Y, I'd already be using the machine.

You don't seem to be able to understand the difference in expectations between the classes. On a cheap Y ticket I expect safe carriage from A-B and cooperate to keep costs low, but on a C/J ticket, I expect all the bells and whistles, which is why I've paid 350-400% more and if the airline expect me to be part of their economy drive, I would just consider them to be barking mad.

striparella

29th Jan 2006, 21:41

Are you 100% certain??? Doesn't the odd one or two slip the net??? I'll bet you don't do 100% security profiling - no one does!!!
If you are as thorough as you claim, then your airline must be making losses because your costs would be astronomical compared to that of your competitors!!! Self-service machines are there to cut staff numbers - not increase the bureacracy of 100% security profiling!!!

You're profiled at check in and the gates.

No-one slips the net believe me - especially at the gates - you HAVE to stop for the security. That is how we achieve 100% security. It pisses passengers off, they have to get all their documents out, answer the questions - and OH MY GOD GET AN E-TICKET RECEIPT!

But we do it 100% for every flight. Especially some flights my airline does - we'd get in big trouble if we didn't profile everyone.

You're thinking along the wrong and easy lines. Self Check In Machines aren't to get rid of staff and save costs at my airline - they've not replaced the agents with machines - there's still the same number of check in desks and staff to man them before the kiosks turned up.

Self check in machines are all about getting the passenger involved with the process, empowerment as it were and maybe just another 'gimmick' - giving the passenger something to remember.

If anything these machines create more work at the gate like i said as passengers tend to think they don't need to drop their 15kg bag off. And believe it or not, check in staff don't just do check in - they have other roles as well! Just because a couple of kiosks turn up doesn't mean staff are axed, you've got it all wrong. It's not quite the industrial revolution you're making it out to be!

And FYI my airline is making a healthy profit.

10secondsurvey

30th Jan 2006, 07:53

Self check in is just dandy, if you always fly the same airline, with only hand baggage, and are not doing numerous international sectors with transfers.

In my experience, with complex flight routings, self check in is a complete pile of poo, as invariably it cannot cope with different seating arrangements from different airlines, and baggage limits, transfers etc...I could go on.

One thing that does hack me off is this, the airlines (BMI are you listening?) promote the idea of self check in as a way of avoiding queues. With BMI they don't have enough machines so, at LHR and EDI amongst others, you now have to join the queue to self check in.

I also strongly agree with previous concerns regarding security checks/screening. It is in a completely different league to lie to a machine compared with telling porkies to a human check in agent. A human check in agent may just spot the odd behaviour or inconsistent responses/attitude which a machine never will. And yes I know that is what security is for, but security is all about layers, and the more you have the more difficult it is for someone to breach completely, and besides usually all security staff do to me in airports (especially LHR!) is grunt. As someone has rightly said, the **** will hit the fan on this one sometime soon.

Just one final thought on jobs; are the check in staff who push you to use the machines for check-in the avaiation equivalent of turkeys voting for christmas. "please use the machines - I no longer want to have a career!"

lexxity

30th Jan 2006, 08:21

Just one final thought on jobs; are the check in staff who push you to use the machines for check-in the avaiation equivalent of turkeys voting for christmas. "please use the machines - I no longer want to have a career!"

No they are made by management to ask you to use the machines and yes, it is checked that you are bring asked.

bealine

30th Jan 2006, 11:11

stiparella - I don't mean to be cruel or unkind here, but I think you are very naiive if you believe that the machines aren't there to cut staff!!! I laughed my head off at the bit about "getting the passengers involved in the process!" - the best bit of marketing management bull5hit so far this century!!!

If your airline isn't reducing headcount now, then it won't be long in coming - of course, they may not make redundancies, but here at British Airways they just haven't replaced people who have left or gone to join other departments!!! Our managers are planning to make this the last year that we employ summer "temps" and, yet again, they are hoping large chunks of the work-force can be persuaded to take a period of "unpaid leave" - all thanks to self-service!!! Go to Gatwick on a late afternoon now, and all the live human-being check-in is all condensed into 5 or 6 desks only! Our managers now have the brainwave that if our passengers get pi55ed off with queueing, they'll use the seslf-service any way!!! So, poor Final 3 Greens will end up having to wait ages or capitulate - because there are no managers around to handle his complaints, and a letter to Customer Relations will only generate a standard reply!!!

striparella - I am intrigued as to which airline you work for? Emirates and Etihad are the only carriers currently making "healthy" profits. BA, VS and the other European "heritage" carriers are in profit, but it will be a couple of years before either of us are in a healthy situation (indeed, BA is very shaky if the black-hole in the pension fund is legally considered a "debt" - which the pilots' union BALPA is currently trying to establish!). Emirates and Eitihad are in a healthy situation, all the US carriers are still making losses, although Continental is about to go "into the black" for the first time since 09/11/.

This leaves the low-cost operators, none of whom yet fly to the USA (which would be the reason for 100% screening and checking return booking status) and the charterers (once again who have no requirement for 100% checks).

So, striparella, give us a clue???

bealine

30th Jan 2006, 13:33

One more reason against the great self-service fiasco:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5237514

TightSlot

30th Jan 2006, 14:23

I'm getting a dead link there bealine

bealine

30th Jan 2006, 14:29

Edited - this link should work:

One more reason against the great self-service fiasco:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5237514

PAXboy

30th Jan 2006, 15:10

You may be amused by this from a friend of mine. She had to do LHR ~ HEL (within the past two weeks) and had to use BA as it was a late booking and Finnair (her usual choice for this route) was now more expensive. Prior to departure, the BA computer invited her to do OLCI but then refused all attempts to do so ...
BA are really getting up my nose with their so called online check in (among other things ...). On the way out, not only was I not able to check in online, in spite of their sending me repeated emails urging me to do so - for some reason the website wouldn't let me. Then when I got to the airport, it wouldn't even let me check in at the self service desks, so I had to stand in line for ages behind large families and groups. Then no explanation as to why the system kept rejecting my booking, positively surly they were!

Prior to her return a week later ...
Now I've tried to check in online again for the flight back tomorrow, only to find that the drop down menu I can use to check in seems to feature every airport BA fly from ... except Helsinki! Go figure ....

I knew in my heart it would be endless source of frustration flying BA, but Finnair was much more expensive, plus they don't do as many flights from London now as they used to. A friend here told me that this is because they have now started to focus on the Far East much more, and apparently Helsinki is rapidly becoming the first choice arrival point in Europe for those coming from Japan and China. Interesting!

Why do BA continue to be so very cr@p, though??? It's not just that they are rubbish, but that they treat you like rubbish when something goes wrong, most often through their fault! Though other people have had different experiences - my Canadian friends always seem to get treated really nicely when flying from Canada and have been upgraded twice.
I can just hear the BA 'managers' saying, "But no one told us that there were problems ..." I have become used to the BA system inviting OLCI for a flight were no self-serve machine exists. They have not bothered to make the system check to see if your departing field has machines or not! If you follow the invitation to OLCI ... you then find that you cannot do so for that flight from that field (in thsi case - LTN for IOM). So they show themselves up before you even reach the airport!

Final 3 Greens

30th Jan 2006, 17:24

Bealine

"So, poor Final 3 Greens will end up having to wait ages or capitulate - because there are no managers around to handle his complaints, and a letter to Customer Relations will only generate a standard reply!!!"

Well, it won't happen with your mob, as I've been using OLCI without issues since it came in, unlike Paxboy's friend. OLCI adds value to the service and, when I can't fly Skyteam (who look after me very well), BA will win if they have a presence on the route purely because of the advantages of OLCI. On the other hand, when the others catch up on OLCI, it will no longer be differentiation and if BA wish to piss me off, well there are other options...

I used Air Berlin for the first time over the weekend and was very impressed by their service offering.

pax2908

30th Jan 2006, 19:58

I am sorry I have not read all the answers (yet). While I understand that the job (check-in agent) is a difficult and not always pleasant one (I would not be able to do this) and sometimes you may think you would like to do something different... well I would be very disappointed if this will go away and a machine will take your place. Incidentally I consider that one of the big advantages of my preferred airline, is the human presence of their check-in staff (the "competitors" seem to have opted for self check-in, not for me thanks).

Red Snake

30th Jan 2006, 21:15

Something doesn't work with Helsinki and online check-in. It's not just BA, KLM is the same. Online check-in to almost anywhere with KLM out of BRS through AMS, but just try it to HEL! And it doesn't tell you it's not available, it just doesn't work.

Anyone know why?

FlyingConsultant

30th Jan 2006, 23:15

On a cheap Y ticket I expect safe carriage from A-B and cooperate to keep costs low, but on a C/J ticket, I expect all the bells and whistles,
Interesting to see a very different perspective form my own.
All I want - on any ticket - is not to sit around at the airport for more than I have to. Anything that speeds up the process while providing security is fine for me. [1]
Machines, and especially online check-in, speed up the process for most of my trips [with the exception, as somebody mentioned, for international multi-legs].
And I mentioned my perspective on security before - the security checkpoint is good enough if done correctly. Spend the money there and not for check-in agents. It's just an opinion, but it is mine :D
FC
[1] I share your opinion once I am on the plane. If i am in business or first, I damn well want great service for the money my clients pay!

bealine

31st Jan 2006, 05:37

And I mentioned my perspective on security before - the security checkpoint is good enough if done correctly.

...........and, at the moment, we witness at least 10 major f*** ups by Central Security daily!!!

.....Pax arrive at the gatewith no boarding pass because they're not checked in!

.....Pax sitting at the gate happily waiting for Heathrow flights because security haven't red the Boarding Pass properly.

etc etc.

Conversely, because I don't want to be cruel, we have some very good staff who will seek me out, as an airline staff member, to alert me if a passenger in the bar has been imbibing too freely or if a passenger is carrying something which is a "grey area" in the Hazardous Goods list!!!

Unfortunately, it's the consistency of security staff that's the problem - and the fact they are not directly employed by the airline. Although I, and my colleagues, are called "Customer Service", our first priority is the safety, security and well being of the majority of our passengers and our fellow airline employees. Responsibility for the individual passenger comes second!!!

BAA security's forst responsibility is to the Retail Shops!!!

I'm glad you have such confidence in security, Flying Consultant!!!

Final 3 Greens

31st Jan 2006, 06:45

Flying Consultant

You have misinterpreted what I said, since being turned away from the agent and redirected to the machine would add time too.

Note my comments about BA OLCI.

FlyingConsultant

31st Jan 2006, 20:32

You have misinterpreted what I said, since being turned away from the agent and redirected to the machine would add time too.

True. Sorry.

Final 3 Greens

1st Feb 2006, 09:40

No sweat, like you I try and minimize travelling time, but reflect on the old saying that "if you have time to spare, go by air" :}

Carry0nLuggage

1st Feb 2006, 12:05

SSCI is about the only reason I still bother with my BA Executive Club card*. It means I get through check much quicker and on the rare occaisions I have baggage to check in, I get rid of it sooner. At LGW at least, I've found the agents at the fast drop desk to be very helpful indeed.
OLCI? For Moday morning flights, fuggedaboudid. If I waited to connect to that part of BA's site I'd miss my flight. Even if I tried the night before.
* Cheapskate employer means miles say frequent flier, points say not.

TwinAisle

2nd Feb 2006, 00:10

Funny thing, OLCI. I have always found BA's to be very good, and generally quirk free. CX's is odd, though. Just done a BKK-HKG-LAX, couldn't check in on line using the BKK-HKG flight number - "no such sector". Managed it with the second (HKG-LAX) flight number, which also let me check in the first sector, which it had suddenly found existed.....

As for check in terminals.... can someone ask the people who write the software for the US ones to have another go at it? Why does it ask me every question in Christendom, including choosing my seat, before it decides that I am a European and therefore have to queue up to see an agent? Couldn't they put a note on them saying "US pax only?"

/spleen vent.....

TA

FlyingConsultant

2nd Feb 2006, 14:30

Why does it ask me every question in Christendom, including choosing my seat, before it decides that I am a European and therefore have to queue up to see an agent? Couldn't they put a note on them saying "US pax only?"
TA

This is strange. I am a European as well and check in online or with the machines, no problem. I have a U.S. address, now, but this worked even before.

Just checked in SFO-EWR, online. Total time: Less than a minute incl. printout on a laser printer.I love it.

FC

TwinAisle

2nd Feb 2006, 15:30

Must be an airline specific thing I guess - this was Alaskan.

Gave it my PNR.
Surname.
Confirmed the sector.
Confirmed that all passengers were present.
Input my BA Exec Club number.
Chose my seat.
Confirmed my credit card.
Told it how many bags I was checking.
Then: "What is your nationality - US, Canada, Mexico, Other"
Hit other. "Go see an agent".

FlyingConsultant

2nd Feb 2006, 19:57

This really must be airline specific. I have never been asked that question on LH, American, United, or Continental check-in machines. Or any other that I can't remember :p

Boss Raptor

9th Feb 2006, 11:44

My only experience of self check in machines has been BA at both LGW-N and BCN recently - where at both places I was invited by a nice BA lady to check in by machine, but in both cases;

I had luggage to check in and there was no apparent provision for this

and,

anyway even if I didnt have luggage the machine requires either yr BA frequent flyer card, which I dont have or the credit card which was used to pay for the ticket, which I dont have either as it's either on account from a travel agent/airline and/or paid on my PA's card from the office - and there's going to be many business travellers just like me in this respect

I am not a fan and personally will be prepared to line up for a human interaction than mess around with a machine any day

Dick Fisher

12th Feb 2006, 13:31

Love the automated check-in. Much better than waiting for ages while every person in front of me tells their whole life story to the check in agent.

Flew Zurich-Birmingham on Friday with a Swiss eticket, and the machine next to the rail station wouldn't issue a boarding card for me and a mate.

Went upstairs and tried again rather than queue and it failed a second time.

A helpful Swiss agent came up to me and apologised for the fact that they were having problems on certain flights, and bounced us to the front of a queue of about 20 waiting punters. She checked the computer and told me that while my flight had been confirmed she could see that no boarding pass had been issued. So she did the business, checked our bags (as the flight was full) issued the boarding cards and we were through in about a minute.

Isn't technology wonderful (with a little human help sometimes!)?

KATLPAX

12th Feb 2006, 16:16

Ive been using online checking, kiosks for the past few years flying mostly on Continental and the process, weather I am up front or in the back, paid high or low, has been flawless. I expect quick in terminal service in any class of service and Continental online/kiosk have done a brilliant job of keeping lines short, especially with their elite security lines (using those ques makes quite a difference, very good idea for ff). I don't need the check in staff to make me feel special because I bought a first class ticket. I would rather they spend $/effort in air with better food, comfy seats, IFE and special treatment where it counts on long sectors. I think Continental understands this and is doing exactly that.

pax2908

14th Feb 2006, 06:35

I would rather they spend $/effort in air with better food, comfy seats, IFE and special treatment where it counts on long sectors. I think Continental understands this and is doing exactly that.

So, in fact overall the Company does not save money with the self- or online check-in, because they are using the $$$ to improve the inflight service ... correct ?

KATLPAX

14th Feb 2006, 18:25

I have no idea how they decide to spend dollars that are saved. Do I think they pour the savings, dollar for dollar to inflight sevices? No way. I do know that the service provided meets my expectations and then some. Ultimately, they are in business to make money for the shareholders, which in turn, if they do remain profitable will enable them to continue operating, hopefully safely, while giving us what they can/want during flight. Continental is one of the few US carriers not under or near bankruptcy.

Continental has done a stellar job making many of their premium flyers feel appreciated. Recently, Continental hosted a 2 day event at IAH for its premium flyers. There were tours of operations, behind the scenes at IAH, and for me the best part, flying the sims. I flew the 75 and 733/5, landing both with a great deal of help I'm sure. Most impressive of the two days was Larry Kelnor and virtually ALL of his top management team held a two hour Q&A answering all sorts of daft questions from why the seats don't recline enough to why they recline so far...but even operation questions were answered, how the wingletted 75s came to be, where Continental wants to be in the next few years, and how they have managed to remain solid considering how many of its competitors have fallen. The kiosks were certainly discussed as a cost saving mechanism as well as a customer relations improvement, and yes I think they can be both. Win - Win as far as I am concerned.