Harmony...Opinions please

[Popgun]

G'day,
I'm helping my parents plan a vacation (from Sydney) in May taking in Hawaii and Western Canada. Harmony offers the most convenient scheduled time for them between HNL and YVR. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts you guys have on their financial viability. That is, if they buy tickets now, is it likely that the carrier will still be around in 4 months time? I'm not really very acquainted with the Canadian industry and I haven't heard much about them since they started. Thanks in advance. Cheers,
Popgun

[Rollingthunder]

Well, they've been pretty dependable since start-up. Got a buddy who is manager for stations world-wide and he seems confident about operations and future expansion (to China). Waiting and waiting on aircraft to do the job and regulatory approvals (B757's won't cut it).

Always buy tickets on credit cards - your best chance to get your money back if things go wonky.

[Otterman]

I fly left seat on the Boeing 767-300ER at KLM. We are phasing this aircraft out of our fleet this year, they are being replaced by a mix of Airbus 330-200 and Boeing 777-200ER’s. Anyway on my last trip to Vancouver a couple of days ago. A delegation from Harmony airlines was waiting at the gate wanting to take a look at the aircraft to see if it would meet their requirements. Two of our ex-767’s are already in Canada flying for Zoom. There are still five which aren’t spoken for. Our 767’s have a lot of life left in them, they are only ten years old.
Greetings O.

[fatbus]

I think you are safe booking with HMY,as above wide bodies on their way,might even be doing HNL-YVR by then

[ea306]

I think you will find by doing some research that Harmony is extremely well backed financially and will be around for a long time...
As a bonus, you will enjoy a very high quality inflight service as well.
Enjoy your flight.:ok:

[pitotman]

Popgun,

I am not posting this to be negative about harmony but since you asked here is my 2 cents worth! I am sure you will be fine booking with Harmony as I have many friends there and I hope that they continue to hang around and even succeed (only moderately....haha)!

But it is a fact that they are loosing money hand over fist and unless things change in the yield department then I would think the long term viability of the airline is in jeopardy! I do believe the time frame you are looking at is safe so I personally would go ahead and book it............

Best of luck! I would fly Harmony over West jet to HNL-YVR anyday.....but the fact remains that they are both single isle airplanes and when your parents want to stretch the legs both these options are less desirable than a wide body aircraft.


Pitotman

[ea306]

There is of course the Harmony One "J" Class... a very nice product.... 52" seat pitch and quality service. It costs more... but it seems to be very popular.

Being a private company, no knows for sure how the company is really doing... however I hear reports that the managment is very pleased with the increased revenue yeilds of late. The business class and cargo aspects do appear to be doing very well.

Of course... the key word is "appear".

:hmm:

[six7driver]

Popgun with our sales showing between 85to 95% seats sold on our flights out of Hawaii for the next 4 months you shouldn't worry about us being around, but whether or not you can actually get your folks aboard one of our flights. Trust me if you get them aboard they'll love you for it! :)

Pitotman, besides your correct advise of telling Popgun to tell his parents to book with Harmony over WJ, the rest of your post is absolute cr-p. How did your crystal ball tell you the next 4 months seem to look safe? what do you know of Harmony's financials? losing money hand over fist? strange then that the company is seeking more A/C's and expanding its routes by now offering year round flights to Maui out of Calgary. Don't try to pass off your ignorant remarks as fact unless you're prepared to back up your utterly false claims.

[Otterman]

Six7driver. I personally think it is only prudent to look at these outfits very carefully. The aviation field is littered with the corpses of these kinds of airlines in Canada. To name but a few; Canada 3000, Royal Aviation, Root Air, Inter-Canadian, Jetsgo, Nationair, Ports of Call, Worldways, etc, etc. Some of these match the business model that is being pursued by Harmony. And I am sure some of the usual suspects are involved in many of these endeavours, including Harmony. The carnage that the closure of the aforementioned outfits left in the Canadian industry is legendary among employees, passengers, and financial institutions. In the late eighties to late nineties one of Canada’s major export product were its pilots. We are all over the world because our home country wasn’t able to provide a stable job market.

Now I am not saying Harmony is going the same way, but the odds are huge and stacked against them. It looks like a nice outfit, and makes me think of the old Wardair.

When the first round of low cost carriers, and charters started up (early eighties) they competed against a government airline (Air Canada), and a heavily leveraged airline (Canadian Airlines International), with a split in international operation along geographic lines. It gave some of these a brief window to establish themselves and prosper like Westjet (which came in at the depths of the problems at Air Canada). Now the landscape has shifted quite dramatically. Air Canada has a basic monopoly on worldwide long-haul scheduled service, it has been able to change its cost structure, and it encompasses a product range that goes from the nineteen seat aircraft up to 350 seat ultra long haul ship. Air Canada also belongs to the largest global alliance (star). If Harmony is too survive it will do so at the behest of Air Canada and Westjet. If it becomes to greedy in trying to take load away from the 800 pound gorilla, it will strike back. I am sure Harmony is not much more than a minor blip on the Air Canada radar screen for now, so the short term there is no risk to Harmony, but the long term is a whole different kettle of fish.

Mentioning the load-factor on your flights is not relevant. It is the yield that the load generates. I know at my airline in the past there were routes that needed to be filled to 130% capacity in order to break-even. Luckily this wasn’t year round, but still it shows that load-factor aren’t a good indicator of airline profitability. I fly for the worlds largest airline (by turnover) and in a good year our profit margin rarely makes it above 5% of turnover. This works out to a profit of 20 Canadian Dollars per passenger carried. What a pathetic business we are in!

Now with the price of oil again exceeding 65 dollars (US) per barrel and I am sure negligible hedging going on at Harmony (I assume so, because of its lack of scale), the amount they are making off each passenger is pretty dicey.

As far as Harmony seeking new aircraft, that in and off itself means very little about the financial strength of the company. If the 767 that I mentioned in my earlier post is heading your way it will do so via ILFC. It would be via a straight financial lease, you pay they will bring the aircraft, and if Harmony doesn’t pay, the repossession will be quite simple (short drive up the coast). What the 767 gives Harmony is the ability to haul a larger load for marginally higher costs. So it will bring down their seat-mile costs, the 767 can be flown by their 757 crews with a minor type difference course as an additional benefit. Just as a frame of reference, we are still talking about an aircraft designed in the early eighties. The Airbus 330-200 carries 30 more passengers at the same fuel flow as the 767-300ER, so that would be a more ideal cost reducer.

I don’t know anything about the actual state of Harmony Airlines (don’t think anyone on this forum does), but I think your rude post about what pitotman had to say does not speak well for you. It is good to see you are proud of your airline and I wish Harmony all the best. But you don’t need to be an ostrich and stick your head in the sand. There are a lot of pitfalls in our business, and Harmony is no different from any other airline which has tried to establish itself. It hasn’t reinvented the wheel. It’s ownership structure looks to be “private” with Dr. Ho being the principal owner. I am sure some deep pockets from China and Hong Kong are involved. But they are businessmen pure and simple. In my search it is very hard to get any financial information about the company. That is the right of a privately held company. But you can’t dispel the information that pitotman posts as much as he can proof his, it is all hearsay. Certainly nothing in your post gives any credence to your assertions. When things go south for a private company they can do so overnight, not like a publicly traded company that has to openly report to its shareholders, and troubles are revealed at an much earlier stage.

The old adage in the airline business still applies: “How do you become a millionaire in the airline business? Start out being a billionaire!”.

Nonetheless best of luck, and I hope you get the best 767’s that are out there.

Greetings O.

[Popgun]

Thanks for the feedback guys...much appreciated.

PG

[uncle buzz]

My comment is to look at some of the failed airlines as Otterman said. Let's see, Inter Canadaian, Royal, C-3, Jets Go. The comon factor so far is LeBlanc! From what I've been told a couple of the other owners seemed to take there money and run. Maybe we should look at the ownership/management in place more careful when looking for work at some of these places. All we all want to do is to make a living and not get screwed to badly.

[extreme P]

what do you know of Harmony's financials? losing money hand over fist?
HMY has extremely low utilization on its 757's. They offer a great schedule, but I'd bet you lunch at Canoe they don't make a nickel operating 757's about 10 hrs a day on average.
Those birds need 14 hours a day to be profitable.
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515977
Here's your chance for a free lunch.

[Tree]

PG:

No worries. HMY is in it for the long haul.

Tree

[six7driver]

Otterman intially your post implies I'm trying to tell Popgun not to do the smart thing he is doing and find out whether Harmony will be around for the next little while. Read my post again, I simply stated what I know to be true, as I work for Harmony as front end crew.

I think Pg was looking for an intellegent thread of opinions on his concerns. Not Pitotman's off the cuff, unfounded claims of Harmony's fortunes. Yet your idea is to scold me for my fair yet, I conceed, ungraceful aprasial of Pitotman's statements about Harmony. You offer up your simplistic and generalized analysis of Canada's airline industry, Which in my opinion only demonstrates your ignorance of it. For example you compare Harmony with other failed airlines in Canada, and state that "some of these match the business model being pursued by Harmony" This is absolutely false, because Harmony's business model bares no comparison with the airlines you selected for your generalized and unsubstantiated analysis. We are a full service airline, and the key to our increasing success has not been discount fares, but excellent inflight and overall service we give to our customers. This is Harmony's business model, to bring value back to airline flying by offering competative fares WITH EXCELLENT SERVICE, IN FLIGHT AND ON THE GROUND. Hardly the case with the other companies you stick us with intially when you say "personally think it is only prudent to look at these outfits very carefully. The aviation field is littered with the corpses of these kinds of airlines in Canada. To name but a few; Canada 3000, Royal Aviation, Root Air, Inter-Canadian, Jetsgo, Nationair, Ports of Call, Worldways, etc, etc"

Oh but then you go on to change your mind and say we remind you of a quaint old relic of the past, Wardair. You say " It looks like a nice outfit, and makes me think of the old Wardair." and these are your words "If Harmony is too survive it will do so at the behest of Air Canada and Westjet." this is great over simplification of what's going on in Canada's airline market, one which Harmony is making a very clear niche in. You state your opinion, based on very little fact on many things including your thoughts on fuel hedging, aircraft fleets ect. believing that the sheer mass of what you write will somehow justify your claims.
Pitotman made false statements and called them facts. If these were directed at the company you work for would you not refute them? You are right I am proud of the company I work for, and I'm not behaving as you said like an ostrich, but as a responsible person who would rather base my information on facts, and not scare mongering. The figures I mentioned in my intial post are correct, and our yeilds btw are up substantially and we'll be around for a long long time.

cheers to you.:)

[pitotman]

Six7Driver,

I am glad that you take pride in your airline and the job you do! :ok: My facts also come from a 757 skipper from your airline so take it easy bro.....My intent was not to steer a customer away but to add my 2 cents worth. As far as I am concerned you guys can prosper all ya like cause I am not interested in making the kind of money Harmony pays the boyz up front.

My colleagues that are at Harmony enjoy the job, but have all stated that as soon as the big AC machine calls they are out the door. You guys have hired a lot of young guys of late with some good time....I don't see the likes of them staying around for a left seat at Harmony when it doesn't pay close to what some of the contract guys are getting...!

So dude take it easy! Continue to do a great job, and I wish you and all at Harmony nothing but success.......(limited of course ;) )


Pitotman

[Left Coaster]

Pitot man...
Do I gather you think that because the Harmony boys and girls make less than you that they are not as good? Maybe you work for the company that just came out of "financial restructuring" due to the fiscal inability to make money...most of the airline world (except one's with the blinders on) believes that it'll happen again if the current trends continue...I really hate it when people are criticized for making less per year and pilloried for being "less talented" for working for the competition...as if it makes you better...67 driver is a proud guy, whom I know to be very accomplished and personally I am pleased to hear the way it's going at HARMONY...so take some advice if you want to...don't judge a company or a pilot by his bank account, get to know him first. See ya out there...:ok:

[pitotman]

You gather wrong bro!
I am a fan of Harmony and I have been in this business long enough to know that Harmony drivers are no different than the drivers at AC or anywhere else one cares to compare. I do not put myself or AC above anyone. Some of the sharpest guys I have ever flown with never left the twin otter.....to each and their own. My comments on pay is only frustration on the continued degradation of our profession and is not directed at Harmony alone....Hell I am embarrassed at what are new hires at AC are getting paid. I am not one of guys at AC who wears blinders either....I see AC being in the same boat in the near future as nothing has changed here and shows no sign of changing anytime soon.

So who knows maybe when Harmony buys the scrapes of AC in ten years I will be just happy to have a job and will be the first to buy you or 76driver a beer.....!

Had lunch three days ago with a Harmony guy and he is happy as can be and loves his job! That more than makes up for the pay......so I will eat crow on my post 2 times........as Harmony's starting pay is more than AC's and your crews are happy..........what more does a guy/gal ask for.........:hmm:

All the best to ya both........happy landings!

Pitotman

[Left Coaster]

Ok Ok OK! I possibly jumped a bit on your post without counting to 10 first! You make some good points about AC and although I too would be a little quiet about the starting $$$, I know all too well what direction it's ALL going in Canada. The industry will always eat their own, and having seen it too many times back home, it always irks me to see and hear those who think that simply working for a flag carrier makes them superior. Many times I have seen better talent choose to work elsewhere simply because they want to. They don't need to be "in the bigs" to be secure. Thanks for letting me know, and give my best to the HARMONY guys (you can count me as one who knows that op very well)...and the same to you.
LC

[LEMD]

Six7Driver check your PM's please.

Anyone else working for Harmony on here? If so please PM me as I've got a few questions I hope someone could help me with.

Thanks in advance.

[Squidwards Friend]

Otterman....very good perspective of the industry here I must say. Too bad you were a part of the many forced to find stability elsewhere.
76driver.... you need to chill man. All I see is agression in your defence to posts that contradict your views, or criticise your suposed employer (or are you management?:) ) Remember what PPrune stands for. this is not a court of law that needs to shoulder a burden of proof. It's only a place anyone can post what's on their mind. Personal "opinion" as it were.
Welcome to Canadian aviation my friend...The more things change, the more they stay the same...

[SteveMcGarrettsHair]

Fact of the matter is Harmony has very deep pockets. Their expansion has been slow and methodical, unlike many of the 'corpses' of the past. They have a good business model, professional, friendly service and happy passengers. Whether or not they are here for the long haul is yet to be seen, but for now they are definitely a growing force on the Canadian aviation landscape.

[LEMD]

Okay... guess I'll ask again. Anyone here work from Harmony willing to answer a few basic questions regarding the company? Please PM me.

Thanks

Just as I sent this in six7driver replied. Thanks for the info and all the best.

[Auroradude]

six7driver,

Check your PMs please.

[six7driver]

LEMD, and Aurora dude

check your PM's please...better late than never:O