Dear Flying Schools, out to the US for a JAA FI rating,would you employ me?

[Jinkster]

Dear Flying Schools,

If I was to go out to the US for a JAA FI rating,would you employ me?

Comments appreciated??

[ariel]

Yes, JAA is JAA, whether obtained here or elsewhere

[BEagle]

It would mainly depend upon how much UK experience you already have...

For example, if you did your own PPL training and hour building pre-CPL in the US, then definitely NO!

[unfazed]

Ariel is correct

If you meet the standard set by JAA then you are competent:ok:

Beagle obviously has some extra personal standards that he applies

If you don't work for Beagle then you should be OK

[FlyingForFun]

Unfazed,

I think you are being a little unfair to BEagle. As an employer, he has every right to set whatever standards he wants to the people he employs.

If, in his experience, people with little flying in the UK do not make the best instructors in the UK, he is quite right to seek out instructors who have more UK flying.

Personally, I would agree with him. Most of my flying has been in the UK, but I've done maybe 10% of my total flying time in the US too. I don't have an FAA CFI rating, but if I did, I honestly don't believe my small amount of US experience would enable me to teach people how to fly in US airspace. I frequently look at US charts and have trouble remembering what various signs and symbols means - a problem I have very rarely, if ever, with UK charts.

FFF
----------------

[homeguard]

What can it matter where you do your JAA FI training as long as it is good training.

Most aeroplanes we fly in the UK are US models and the earth is just as round and hard in the states as it is here. The principles applied cannot and do not alter. The crops you overfly or lack of them are irrelevant.

I'm presuming that you have completed CPL training in the UK or will be and if you did/do your knowledge of UK airspace and procedures are/will be well grounded.

You may even gain some new and different knowledge to bring back with you and why not.

Good luck

[Julian]

A JAA Instructor rating is a JAA Instructor rating is a JAA Instructor rating!!!!

Some people on this forum have an issue with the US angle but dont let them put you off. Mate of mine didnt even do a course in the UK until his FI course and guess what - errr - he got hired by a flying school in Manchester nr where he lived - guess it wasnt the one BEagle works at :rolleyes:

The quality of instruction you will recieve will very from school to school but that is also the case in the UK as well as the US. I haved used a school in the US where the CFI is also a JAA instructor and therefore he teaches you to both standards to ensure easy conversion, say for the IR, on your return.

Julian.

[strafer]

I frequently look at US charts and have trouble remembering what various signs and symbols meansYou don't remember because you don't need to remember. If you got an FI job in the US, how long would it take you to get up to speed FFF? No more than a couple of days I imagine.

There are a few people (and dogs!) on this board who are very sniffy about US flying in general, without ever coming up with valid reasons why. Exposure to different flying environments would make you a better instructor IMV.

If you have the qualifications for the job, the rest comes down to your personality & character.

[KingAir77]

In my opinion, your qualifications are not depending on wether you obtained your rating in the US or UK. A much more important issue is what your total experience is. Frankly, if you sport the bare minimum hours, you will not make a good instructor in the beginning, because you have virtually no experience of flying on your own that you could pass on. If you are more experienced, adapting to an other country's system is just a matter of a few hours familiarizing. Planes fly by the same laws of physics on both sides of the pond.

I started instructing with about 600 hours total, and feel that earlyer would have been to early. Being an instructor not only involves being able to fly on your own, you are responsible for your student, so you need to do 3 things at the same time: Know where you are and where other planes are, pass your knowledge to the other person, and spot not only his mistakes, but also the reasons for them.

Good luck, hope it all works out for you.

[Gugnunc]

I've just had a conversation with a FTO where they would only consider me as a FI on their books if either the majority of my hours, or the FIC have been done locally.

Granted the Principles of Flight and the aircraft are the same here as over the pond, but from my (my head on a block here - limited-) flying experience, surely judgement and knowledge learned from local conditions are a big factor.

If you are to instruct in a "Disturbed Temperate Climate" better that you learnt there than in a "Savanah" climate? (Sorry - Met was a recent subject as you can tell :) !!!

[Mordacai]

Beagle,

Do you look at the individual at all? Surely you cannot be that close minded? I read your posts on this forum with a great deal of respect unsually, but this one made me want to :yuk:

[BEagle]

Of course I would - if he/she had the necessary experience of UK operations. Someone who had done all his/her flying on the Floridian coast would frankly be of little use. It takes more than a 'few hours' to be sufficiently comfortable operating in the UK environment with all its quirks and weather hazards - and a FI needs to be sufficiently au fait with all that for it to be second nature when teaching basic PPL students.

My ideal instructor? A part-time experienced UK R/BCPL holder happy to do a few days a month in a club environment as a break from his/her 'day job'.

[Julian]

Aha, the usual if they have done all their flying in the US then they have only flown in blazing sunshine and calm conditions and will s*** themselves the first time it rains on a UK flight!!!! :rolleyes:

Sorry Beagle but as Mordaci states thats pretty closed minded! It DOES only take a few hours to adapt to the UK environment, there are schools who will tell it will take you 15hours of extra training but they are just money grabbers! It was even pointed out on this board that one person had it said to them before he had even flown with the instructor!!!!!!!

Florida recently had hurricanes in case you forget? I have done alot of flying in California, during which I have flown CAVOK, IMC, high altitude airports, snow covered ski resorts, in mountains (yes they have them which makes for some pretty intertesting quirks & weather hazards there as well).

I fly in both US and UK having an aircraft 'ooop North'. Hey maybe we shouldnt let instructors from the South of England instruct or fly Ooop North until they pass a seperate set of exams and flight tests and its really different up here, higher, icing conditions, more hills to fly into, etc and they may be usless! :E

[Say again s l o w l y]

Here we go again........

If you had the bare minimum of experience and it was all from abroad, then despite the fact you had a JAA rating, then if there was someone with more local experience but the same total experience level, then you are unlikely to get the job.

I would want to meet an individual anyway and there are far more things to think about than just where someone trained, but it is something to be aware of.

I don't know why people have such a chip on their shoulder about being trained abroad, especially those that are jumping up and down on this thread.
BEagle makes a very valid point about having a range of experience. Operating in the U.K can be very different to Florida or Oz, but up here in Scotland we have even more things to watch out for, so my standards have to be even higher. If you haven't had any experience of cold, mountainous terrain with the added spice of wx that changes faster than anywhere else I've seen, then to be honest I'm not going to be interested.
I can afford that luxury as I have a very stable, competent and experienced team ALL of whom live locally and have been trained locally. It makes my job an awful lot simpler!

[Whopity]

When it comes to getting jobs as a FI, schools tend to like Instructors who are home grown, i.e. they allready know the individual, they may have trained them at some point, or they may have been a member of their club. They then tend to have their preferred FIC providers; whilst JAR is JAR, one FI Course is NOT the same as the next, in the training world it is the most bespoke course there is because the experience level of the candidates varies from a couple of hundred hours to many thousands. In any case, the only common thing in JAR is the Lowest Common Denominator, many CFIs aim considerably higher than that and have every right to do so. The easiest test for an FI is to see if they can teach, on the ground and in the air, the way you want things taught in your school. Very few people fail the initial FI course; you would not expect a very high instructional ability at that level and the examiner is aware that the candidate has just invested a lot of money and no matter what will improve with time. Sadly, the JAA took away the requirement for FI test 13 months later and now does not mandate one for 6 years, far too long to find out if a FI really can instruct. All FI courses conducted in the US are conducted by FICIs who are UK FIs.

[BEagle]

One minor error - the first FI revalidation must be by test, thereafter testing is mandatory at least every 6 years.

Although quite what that achieves is open to question - it used to be mandatory every 25 months.

[VFE]

I was informed by the CFI of a certain south coast flying club that he would not employ someone who'd done their FI rating at an FTO in a certain Spanish city. Kind of hints at the general attitude towards those who've done training on foreign shores...

Beagle is very correct when he talks of the leap in skill required to fly in the UK compared to Florida. Increased stringency in ATC procedures and air law mean you have to be au fait to even be capable of flying yourself effectively around the sky.... to mention nothing of instructing the student. My thoughts are that your first student would be an even bigger guinea pig than is usually the case but that's just my opinion.

VFE.

[lloydsky]

Very interesting subject for me because I am british wih FAA ME CPL IR and 180hrs (all Florida time) and now have JAA ATPLs.
Now I want to convert my licence to JAA CPL, and become a JAA Flight Instructor. But as money is now very limited I am probably going to go back to US and do the training there but it seems pointless if I wont be able to get a job here when I get back. (I will be doing my JAA ME-IR conversion when I get back mind!)

I dont like this attitude of saying people who learned to fly in Florida will have a difficult time in UK. Obviously the people who say this have had dfficulty themselves and aren't the most natural pilots amongst us. Money doesn't grow on tree's and some people have to take the cheaper option. I was at Pheonix East flying out of Daytona beach International and there was more traffic flying in/ out and around there than most of the training areas in UK and as an instructor or student it is demanding.

Thanks

[170']

LLoydsky .et al

Those of you that learned to fly,received certification,built hours or whatever in the US. Need to think about the where you're posting, and in what forum, before you take certain responses to heart.....

A JAA certificate is a JAA certificate. Period.....

You can't expect a guy running a flight school in the UK (always a marginal proposition financially) to say Yes! I need Instructors who gave all their training dollars to a US operation. Simply because it was cheaper, warmer, dryer and a lot more fun!!! (but that won't stop him if he's hurting for staff)

Come on, think about it! Many people reading a forum such as this are Schools or Instructors, both who need students for an income stream. So you're not going to get support for returning to where it's cheaper,warmer, dryer and lots more fun for your Instructor rating.

Just go ahead and do it wherever it you want. If there's a need for an instructor later. After the fact!.....Most reasonable people will take you on based on general merit....Any talk of not knowing the local flight procedures, routes or area are just ridiculous. You're a pilot for crying out loud! If you could only fly to places you've been before,it wouldn't make sense would it?
The odd job you might have missed out on is hardly a reason to suffer UK aviation a minute longer than necessary...

When you do get the qualification. You can also expand your horizon! The UK is not the only country in JAR land and with a little work on a foreign language...... 'The worlds your oyster'

Best of luck to all!

[LEVC]

I agree with Beagle when he points out that he would prefer to emply somebody who has trained in UK, because this FI will fit quicker and easier in the flight school, but, i wouldn't as far as to say that somebody with no previous UK experience is usseless as FI in UK.

somebody having done all his flying in USA or elsewere that has a JAA licence with an FI raing is qualified to do the job, and it may take a few hours to get to know the area but he'll quickly adapt and be able to instruct.

After all, this person has a JAA-CPL licence and he hasn't got it by correspondence or trough a lotery, he's past exams and demonstrated in flight tests he can fly to good standards.


Personal experience:

Did all my flying out of the UK, got my first flying job in UK as FI with no experience as FI, neither did i have any flying experience in the UK.

Took me few hours to get used , never had any problem, never got lost, never busted airspace or get any complain.

I don't consider myself the best pilot ever and i think most JAA FI's would make it too.

Another example:

A friend of mine is now working as FI in southern Spain, he trained in UK, never flew before in Spain and has no problems either.

[170']

You're 'splitting hairs' LEVC ...It might be minimally easier for a local to integrate into the school, but does that mean someone who learned to fly in Cornwall wouldn't be suitable. Because he wouldn't know the area either!...
Let's face it, Ab initio and PVT flying instruction is not rocket science. And the requirement and effort to bring him up to speed locally would be the instructors responsibility anyway.
Talk of the wx systems locally is again just smoke and mirrors...
Me and thousands of people like me, have worked all over the world for years. It's the same story everywhere.
If you talk to a float plane driver in British Columbia. He'll tell you nowhere in the world has such dangerous weather. Move down to PNG and they'll tell you the same...Talk of the N. Sea and they claim its hell....But no worse and often better than the GOM on a bad day...
It's always a case of people re-assuring themselves that we (whoever and wherever we are) are special people and have above average ability. Or we couldn't cope with what we do...
The reality is! Everywhere gets bad wx, many places have hills, Mt Snowdon is around 3500' I think...You need another 1500' before anyone could call it a mountain and that's being gracious...
Flying in the UK is as easy as anywhere in the world that has mixed controlled airspace. A no brainer for any well trained, competant pilot. Especially one who recently finished his commercial training and Instructor rating.
No! I didn't just finish commercial training, although I envy anyone who did. It'd be great to start the big adventure over!
Tenga un buen fin de semana...170
Usted está partiendo los pelos. No pienso que es un idioma español ?

[ASIAN FROG]

Yes I will employ you if you have the required experience and we have some position available. A project of College of Aviation JAR STANDARD is on going in SE ASIA. Expect Flying School operational end of the year. Send me a PM with your CV.