Owning a light aircraft - costs involved

[leonbrumsack]

Hi all,

Forgive me if this has been answered before - I have searched without luck!

Totally hypothetical question. If I were to decide to buy a single-engined light aircraft (such as a Pa28, Pa38, C152, C172) there are, obviously, a lot more costs involved than the initial acquisition. I was just wondering what sort of ballpark figures are involved for things such as insurance, maintenance, hangarage/based airfield costs, etc. I understand that these will naturally vary considerably, but any indications would be appreciated (based on somewhere like Elstree).

Also would it be a possibility to hire a privately-owned aircraft to a flying club or school, so that it at least partially funds itself?

Many thanks!

Leon

[Genghis the Engineer]

On running costs, do a search - there are many threads on this. But if you reckon on the local tie-down costs (probably about £300/month somewhere like Elstree), 8-12% of hull value for annual insurance, plus 1½ times fuel cost (covering fuel plus maintenance and engine fund), I don't think you'd be far out.

On hiring back - go and talk to Cabair at Elstree; I believe that they have a scheme in place for just this, but tend not to publish the details because each aircraft is subject to an individual agreement between themselves and the owner, negotiated to satisfy both.

If you genuinely want you own aeroplane for private use however, my advice would be either join a syndicate, or buy something on a permit and keep it at a farmstrip. Buying a CofA light aircraft for mainly personal use, and keeping it at an expensive London airfield is a great way to bankruptcy!

G

[IO540]

Very last thing I would do is rent a plane back to a school. It's just going to get wrecked, so the people that do that are usually those that don't mind a plane being wrecked, which is fine if you don't want something nice to fly yourself. Also a large proportion of flying schools are run by people who are, at best, somewhat economical with integrity, and one has to hang around the place for a few years to suss out who you can trust.

The best way to spread costs while keeping control and reasonable access (flying weekends/holidays etc) is to put together an informal group, by purchasing a good quality plane and then renting it out, at a very competitive rate, to carefully selected pilots.

That has the disadvantage of requiring a Transport CofA (if G-reg) but if set up correctly (limited company) it can operate as a real business which means you can get the proper capital allowances and VAT rebates. See a competent accountant.

[Pitts2112]

Leon,

I completely agree with Genghis. The PFA is the way to go if you want to keep flying affordable and not get involved in unnecessary regulation and cost. If you have to have a CofA aircraft, however, a syndicate is the way to go. One way of setting one up that has been suggested to me is to just buy the airplane and bring it to your home field, then advertise for members (if you don't already have interested people onboard). That's much easier than getting a group of people and then going shopping for an airplane.

Also, consider other airfields than Elstree and White Waltham if you can. White Waltham charges extortionate prices in my view. For instance, if one is able and willing to drive down the M3 for a half hour, Popham charges £65/month for an outdoor tiedown and £175/month for space in a brilliant hangar (but availability is a problem at the moment). White Waltham charges £250/month for a dirty space in a clapped out WW2 surplus tool shed.

Another option to consider if you don't want to lose control of the aircraft but just want to defray costs is to buy the airplane and set up an arrangement where syndicate members can fly it but don't have to pay for a capital share. That way it's still your airplane to do with as you please. For instance, I've been in two groups like that. Didn't have to buy a share but put up a £1,000 deposit, paid an equitable share of the monthlies and a very reasonable rate per wet hour. Everyone won in that situation.

Good luck, in any case. You might also look for openings in existing syndicates. Hang around, drink coffee, talk to people, make some friends, let them know you're interested in buying in and someone may come knocking on your door. It happens.

Cheers,
Pitts2112

[kenparry]

Sole ownership is a very expensive way to go, and I suggest would only make sense if you are going to fly a great deal, maybe 100 hr/year or more.

Have you considered joining a syndicate? It reduces costs per person and, if the group is not too large, the scheduling clashes are minimal. Lots of ads in the back of various light aviation magazines.

Beware of going the Limited Company route: the UK taxman will hit you for tax on "received benefits" or some such. I'm not an expert on this, you would need an accountant's advice.

[Rod1]

Costs comparison;

C of A 180hp spamcan (cruse 120k)

Maintenance per year £4000
Insurance per year £1600
Fuel per hour £50 (5000 for 100 hours)

(Based on AA5B but generic)

PFA two seat with 100hp (cruse 130k)

Maintenance per year £500
Insurance per year £1600
Fuel per hour £15 (1500 for 100 hours)

(Based on MCR-01 but generic)

[EI-MPE]

PFA two seat with 100hp (cruse 130k)

Maintenance per year £500
Insurance per year £1600
Fuel per hour £15 (1500 for 100 hours)

(Based on MCR-01 but generic)

Rod 1 - can you provide examples of what a PFA two seat aircraft actually is? (Manufacturer, model, etc)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'll save him the trouble.

A PFA type is an aeroplane on a Permit to Fly, which is administered by the Popular Flying Association. (Such as the MCR-01 Ban-bi which he mentioned).

The list of types is here (http://www.pfa.org.uk/pdfs/Hombuilt%20List%20by%20Type.pdf). If you like microlights as well (and why not, they offer as much range and interest - many of them even cheaper so long as you don't mind being limited to 2 seats) then also look at the BMAA list, which are also permit aeroplanes here (http://www.bmaa.org/upload/techdocs/200511121758130.021_1.pdf).

G

[foghorn]

Being the treasurer of an AA5B group, I can concur with Rod's figures - they look spookily similar to ours. We've had to repeatedly increase our hourly rates over the last two years to keep up with the price of AVGAS.

[IO540]

I would suggest that a reduction in annual maintenance from £4000 to £500 will be due to rather more than a change from a CofA type to a PFA type!!!!

One problem is that if one is going to buy a 30 year old plane for say £30k (as most people do) then the maintenance cost WILL be high. That's the whole reason the thing cost "only" £30k; it's because the previous owner(s) dumped a few k into the thing each and every year that the thing is still hanging together. Such is the "maths" of this business. A Vauxhall Viva would last 100 years if you spent that much money on it.

Whereas if you buy a similar plane but newer, for say £60k, then ON AVERAGE the maintenance cost will be lower.

Ultimately, the only way to make a dent in flying costs is to buy something that you can maintain yourself. On a CofA type that means becoming a qualified maintenance engineer (LAME for G-reg or A&P for N-reg). A Permit type is the other way, but they are limited to daylight VMC and in other ways which may or may not matter.

[Wrong Stuff]

Also would it be a possibility to hire a privately-owned aircraft to a flying club or school, so that it at least partially funds itself?
Cabair provide such arrangements and used to have an explanatory sheet which gave example numbers. It may have changed now, but the example I saw looked quite attractive until you noticed they hadn't included anything for the cost of the new engine you'd need at the end of the period.
You're fortunate in that Elstree has lots of other options in addition to outright purchase. There are quite a few no-capital groups as well as some good shares available in everything from cheap hacks to nicely kitted out tourers. Have a look at the notice boards in the Elstree Aero Club and the tower.

[Rod1]

“I would suggest that a reduction in annual maintenance from £4000 to £500 will be due to rather more than a change from a CofA type to a PFA type!!!!”

The AA5B (1978 vintage, my old aircraft) and the MCR (new) are worth about the same money. On another thread the cost of engine monitoring was discussed. Mine cost £395 inc vat installed, the C of A alternative is £1500 ish. Most the bits are much less expensive and you are paying no labour. As it is new it will also require less bits, but even a 1950’s Jodel would be vastly less expensive to maintain on a PFA permit than a C of A machine.

For a non IR pilot who spends a lot of time touring in France the permit restrictions are not an issue. If you have an IR and can afford a de iced twin then cost is probably not your primary concern!

If you want a micro, the figures are almost identical to the MCR, but watch the useful load. My Club version has 30kg better lifting capacity then the ULM version.

Rod1

[IO540]

"you are paying no labour"

You are doing the labour yourself and not being paid for it.

In the same way, you could do the work on a CofA plane so long as a LAME (or an IA, perhaps, N-reg) signs it off.

The difference is that the former case can be done without anyone knowing, whereas the latter case requires a very friendly engineering outfit :O

However I accept your point. Every few months I save a few hundred quid doing my own 50hr checks (N-reg) over previously being on a Transport CofA (G-reg). But even that isn't a fair comparison; one should compare N-reg with a Private CofA G.

If I was buying a permit type (which one day I well might) I would go for something capable of real IFR. One can't do IFR legally, but maintaining 100% VMC en-route is just about impossible on any sort of real flight. That is one area where Permit planes fall down: the panel space tends to be poor. I've seen some fantastic homebuilts in France & Spain though, better equipped for IFR than almost anything you can rent in the UK...

[Rod1]

Being in IMC is illegal for most PPLs, and even the ones with an IMC rating are illegal outside the UK. The remaining PPL IR holders are a very small % at the moment and would not go for a permit aircraft.

My aircraft has all the bits necessary to survive and navigate in IMC, though it is not full IFR. I also intend to practice and do mock IMC renewals in her. This is not because I cannot tour in VMC, as only about 20 of my 800 hours is in touring IMC, as opposed to practice. It is because I might inadvertently end up in the soup and I want to live to tell the tail!

Between 1/3 to ½ of my hours will be in non UK airspace, my IMC is not worth very much (lets not start the VFR on top debate), and in practice the PFA permit restrictions are very close to the basic PPL restrictions most of us have to live with.

I take your point on the hours issue, but all my “interesting” moments have been due to poor maintenance or faulty parts, so I view doing it myself as the only way to know it is done properly. Besides this, most of the time I enjoy working on them and because of the cost spiral on the AA5 I would have had to switch to cheaper flying in the next few years or give up.

Rod1