Question for LHR ATCOs

[LastCall]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but the idea came back to me yesterday morning while going around in the BNN hold.

On our assigned frequency we were receiving descent clearances as we worked our way down in the stack. Every so often another controller's voice would come on, this one female, giving a clearance to either us or another aircraft, after which the original controller would resume issuing clearances.

My question is, is it normal to have more than one controller working the same position, or is it a case of training being involved and the trainer interjecting or over-riding the trainee?

My question is asked merely out of curiosity, as it has happened frequently in the past in various LHR sectors.

Whatever the reason, always receive outstanding and professional service from all involved. Thanks.

LC

[TATC]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but the idea came back to me yesterday morning while going around in the BNN hold.
On our assigned frequency we were receiving descent clearances as we worked our way down in the stack. Every so often another controller's voice would come on, this one female, giving a clearance to either us or another aircraft, after which the original controller would resume issuing clearances.
My question is, is it normal to have more than one controller working the same position, or is it a case of training being involved and the trainer interjecting or over-riding the trainee?
My question is asked merely out of curiosity, as it has happened frequently in the past in various LHR sectors.
Whatever the reason, always receive outstanding and professional service from all involved. Thanks.
LC

Heathrow is a special case in the UK with 2 people sharing the North Director position and frequency at busy times. There is one guy giving clearances to leave the hold and vectoring towards final before transfer to Final Director. There is another guy responding to the first call of airraft, managing the stack and deciding on the landing order. So in many ways it is quite normal to hear two voices when on the heathrow north frequency - while in the BNN or LAM holds. Equally is it also likely to hear two voices when in the South Stacks if the ATC operation is bandboxed onto the North Director position.

If it happened on other frequencies and sectors then it is probable that it would be a trainee and his MEntor interjecting.

[Del Prado]

Hi LC, glad you like the service.

On Heathrow North (119.72) there is very often a second controller sharing the frequency. This support controller's tasks are to descend aircraft in the stacks, telephone co-ordination, answering first calls (checking types, cleared levels and ATIS received) and deciding the landing order. This allows the radar controller to concentrate on vectoring off the holds at the right time and to the correct position.
If holding for more than 5-10 minutes there will usually be a support controller on 119.72 but we rarely employ a support controller on the south frequency (134.97). If you've heard two voices on 134.97 or 120.4 that's almost certainly a trainee and mentor.
Gatwick and Stansted use the same system. I'm sure it can't be just a UK procedure but having demonstrated it to Italian and French controllers they couldn't understand how we knew when to talk and when to let the other guy talk.

[LastCall]

Many thanks for the quick and informative replies. Am always glad to learn something new in this business.

Will be talking to you later this evening.

Cheers.....LC

[tori chelli]

There are other units outside the LTMA which use 2 ATCO's on 1 freq.. I believe EGPF have two people sharing the approach frequency (as distinct from the director frequency)...one working semi-procedurally and one using radar.

I'm sure there's someone out there from EGP... who can corroborate (or otherwise)

Tori

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Since this thread had a suitable title, and in the interestes of keeping all the Heathrow related questions in one place I thought I'd use it.

When giving a taxi clearance to inbound aircraft, why do the majority of controllers not seem to mention all the taxiways? For example "Left on Alpha, stand 106" rather than "Left on Alpha, Juliet, stand 106".

Adding the name of the taxiway on which the stand lies would make my job a bit easier, because the stand number no longer gives a clue to its whereabouts. I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind this operating practice.

'Course if it was my train set, I'd divide the airfield up into little sections (let's call them "blocks"), then I'd give each stand a letter and a number....!

G W-H

[Gonzo]

GW-H,

IMHO, best practice says that it should happen as you describe, and some ATCOs do use that format. However, it didn't happen under the old block system, so I guess in some part it's a hold over from those days. Also we are also aware of giving out long taxy instructions.

[MancBoy]

It is also possible to hear 2 controllers on the same freq if an instructor needs to step in over a trainee if it's getting a little busy for them or they issue a crap instruction, etc.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<'Course if it was my train set, I'd divide the airfield up into little sections (let's call them "blocks"), then I'd give each stand a letter and a number....!>>

No way, Giles, it would never catch on.....

(Back in the dark days some colleagues spent many hours one night watch, with slide rules, Dalton Computers, Towers of Hanoi and Abacus trying to calculate the "average" block. I seem to recall it was 61(i)... can someone confirm please?)

[Talkdownman]

My question is, is it normal to have more than one controller working the same position?Pre-Feb '71 most of the London Airways sectors had 2 voices! The 'D-Man' (Procedural) and the 'Radar Man', the latter being subservient (and a lower grade). Extensive use was made of intercom to agree a course of action, or otherwise.......! At London (Post-Uxbridge) the D-Man was at West Drayton and the Radar Man at Southern ATCC, Heathrow (Next to Block Number 1.....!)

[Talkdownman]

Back in the dark days some colleagues spent many hours one night watch, with slide rules, Dalton Computers, Towers of Hanoi and Abacus trying to calculate the "average" block. I seem to recall it was 61(i)... can someone confirm please?)How did we average out 'inner' and 'outer'...??

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

Gonzo

Thanks for the answer. Including the cul-de-sac taxiway in the clearance may just prevent someone from turning up the wrong blind alley!

On aaother subject. Will your fancy new ATIS system tell us when we can expect the Farnborough-avoiding temporary SIDs rather than the SAM, or is it not that clever?

G W-H

[Gonzo]

GW-H,

To be honest, we don't even know when the Tango SIDs are going to be applied, so forecasting when they're going to be needed on the ATIS is going to cause more problems than it solves, I think!

To clarify, we know when they're planned to be applied, but it changes tactically so much that it often different to the promulgated times.