India: Land of Opportunity...OR IS IT???

[aerogull]

The grass always looks greener on the other side!

Here are a few points that I have put together for those wishing to pursue a new hire F/O job in India (assuming you have the right to work in this country)

1. If one holds a foreign licence, that licence will have to be converted to an Indian DGCA licence...and what a nightmare of a conversion it is! Red tape, archaic beauraucracy, corruption and total inefficiency plagues the Indian DGCA (Directorate General of Civil Aviation). It takes about 6 months (sometimes more) to convert that licence!

2. After the conversion, be prepared to sign either a huge training bond, a bank guarantee or furnish the amount yourself under the pretence of "training costs". These bonds or bank guarantees can last close to 7 or 10 years! And if you decide to pay it all at once, the amount can be as much as 26 lakhs (1 lakh = 100000 Rupees and 1 US $ = approx 45 Rupees). As you might have rightly figured out, there hardly is a need for a bond when one so willingly pays the whole amount up front!

3. On top of, say for example a bank guarantee, most airlines WILL deduct thousands of dollars over a period of time from your monthly salary to cover "training costs". For example, one operator, requires you to provide a bank guarantee for 7.5 lakhs for a period of 7 years. This amount is given back to you after those 7 years...which is fine. After all, an airline needs to have some assurance that you will stay, especially in India. But on top of that bank guarantee or bond or whatever you would like to call it, this airline deducts an additional 7.5 lakhs, during your commitment, from your salary!

4. Prepare to work like a slave. The current shortage of pilots does not help the situation any further. Combined with the Indian work ethic (or more aptly the required work ethic!) and the dilemma for pilots, putting in 6 days a week is common. One poor fellow commented on how his company asked him to change base on a day's notice!

5. Forget about getting in on merit. Money talks in India!

6. Good CRM is practiced in only a few companies. So as to not be mistaken, I shall say it again...GOOD CRM, not just CRM! And arguably so...kinda tricky, not impossible, to have good CRM when the FO has 250 hours (most of it in a Cessna 172) and the Captain has 6000!

6. Yes, once all the training is completed, and you occupy the right seat as a regular FO, your pay is fairly substantial (once again, depends on who you talk to!). It needs to be, especially after borrowing loans or tying up money in bank gurantees towards those training costs!

The information provided is not a fabrication but rather actual information gathered from interacting with fellow pilots in India. It merely provides an insight as to the practices of the Indian aviation industry. In other words, some food for thought, especially for those looking at India as heaven on earth!

All the best!

Aero

[Left Wing]

Its a demand and supply situation and Indian pilots are going to make the best of it.

working for 6 days flying approx 80 hrs mth should only make a young FO happy faster time to capt. upgrade.

DGCA well :mad: :mad: :mad: :{ :{ :{ :{ not even Minsiter Praful Patel can change that lot.

all this can change over nite if Mallaya get approval to get expat FO's local guys are doomed.

[indianpilot]

your points are really good and valid but the bottom line is if you've a better job then don't come to india. unfortunately there aren't many jobs available in the market while indian aviation is growing like crazy.
so although all these points are there to consider i'd still take the job i'm getting. thanks.....;)

[propdog]

your points are really good and valid but the bottom line is if you've a better job then don't come to india. unfortunately there aren't many jobs available in the market while indian aviation is growing like crazy.
so although all these points are there to consider i'd still take the job i'm getting. thanks.....;)

The question is: what is a "better" job. I currently fly ERJ-145s for a US regional with a captain upgrade coming up in two months. I am trying to figure out if I should continue in the US or jump ship to India. Any advice?

[picollo]

propdog,
for what its worth, here are my two cents,
I was in the same predicament and spoke to a few friends of mine in India and also talked to aerogull, and decided to stay.

the quality of life, time off and the luxury of not having to deal with the DGCA are worth it. Upgrade here, get the 1000 PIC and apply to Fedex, UPS etc,

Good Luck

[propdog]

Thank you. Glad to know that there are people in my shoes. (Too many Fu##ing choices.....just kidding!). It is tempting to jump to Inida. However, after having given a lot of thought, I too think it will be totally worth it to stick thru the regional upgrade and somehow make it to a major in the US. You are right picollo- the QOL (work rules $ bennies) and time off we enjoy in the US is going to be difficult to be matched in India.

[Pushpak]

It's not worth, get your command and the required min experience and then then try for the airlines in asia...India looks promising but dealing D.G.C.A and C.M.E is a nightmare.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Not to mention that as long as you are an expat pilot in a foreign country/airline, you are the uninvited guest. Everyone might smile and be polite but lets be real here. You are only wanted because you are nessecary to keep the wheels turning. That is why asian carriers (many of them) have a nasty history of changing conracts and conditions midstream, and you off course have no rights! My advise to anyone asiabound is to make sure you are offered the same contract as everyone else. talk to pilots already there. I myself exitedly accepted a position and my own naiv attitude bit me hard where the sun don't shine. When I showed up to start the job I discovered most other pilots were on a contract with higher wages and twice as much annual leave as me.

[DesiPilot]

Propdog,

What Majors?? Most of the majors have filed for bankruptcy and it will be a long while before they start hiring again. As for FedEx and UPS you cannot work for them unless you are a US citizen. Both companies carry HazMat and DOT mandates that pilots are US citizens. Same is true for Atlas or Tradewinds.

As for quality of life, yes it was not too bad whilst i was flying CRJ's in USA. But that was as an FO, i am sure as a junior captain your life wont be any better than a CA in India. My friends who fly here hold anywhere between13-14 days off with 80-85 hours of flying. Money is not bad an d you do live like a king.

I am starting with kingfisher and will let you know what my life is like compared to living in MEM but I am sure nothing beats being close to my family.

Yes, you will have deal with DGCA and CME initially but once you are working for an airline, the airline takes care of everything.

May be grass is greener, but it is still green while I am on this side of the pond, as soon as it will start changing colors (colours?) I will post here.

:) Desipilot

PS: I didnt have convert my licence as I kept my CPL current since 1998.

[jumpdrive]

my advice to you propdog and others cominn inside the party
stay there where you are flying
unles U just wanna make money
is that the main reason? then come here, but heyy! be prepared
some people could say......lets celebrate our diferences.........
but damnnnnn
this is to much of a change
unless your Indian and wanna be close to mom, see some cricket & U are used to this way of living
then you will have no problem

i guess a point a lot forget bout why expat's are here
....none or almost all didnt have a current job and where desperate
....previos company closed or strugglinn
....some where close by and took the chance
....some just didnt have an idea of how this was
....and of course.......the bucks
thats it ...........PERIOD........
money TALK$ ,.................BS walks, like aerogul said before

no one came here to see the TAj or the bridge in Kolkatta or get the party started at Goa, no way jose, just the money and not knowing what to espect came with it............ a big big mess and chaos

ive seen americans, brazilians, australian, german, dutch, you name it, coming here talking a lot about the money they were making on the nice jets and all that, but soon after weeks or months of being here with nothing to do or see, other than a big bank acc, they gett crazy and just wanna leave running, like they have been doing

i see some of the post and it makes me wonder
some say that the airline takes care of evrything?.........blablabla..... yeah right!!!!!..... validations? exams? test?, it's all a joke, all the companies have some1 arranging all , so everybodys (pilots & AME's) passes their exams here, qualified people............jajajajajaja, only few locals the rest came from outta town, and now the gov reduced the hours to become a pilot, big deal, now kids come less prepared.............imagine that with doctors............no sir, now you wont need to study 6 years to become a dr, the country needs a lot of drs. so youll now just have to study 4 years,.,.....jajajajajaj what a joke
no one seems to care, thats the practice in this industry........sad, with all the money and tech they have here, just go at the DGCA in delhi, and youll get a free ride to the past (mid 50's) cool huh!?!?!? better than any museum (oh and pls dont enter the toilets!!!!!!!unless wearing a PBE and gloves)

like picollo said............and i agree with him 110%
quality of life guys
no MONEY can top that believe me its true for all of us still here
and thats what sometimes puts us on a low some days by missinn all of that
and for what...............well once again.......................money

dont take it personally
im having 1 of my low & down days here in incredible india
more money............less life
c ya guys

[propdog]

Good luck DesiPilot! Let us know how things are with Kingfisher. Are you going there as a "senior co-pilot"?

[picollo]

Desipilot,
You are mistaken. You do not need to be a citizen to fly for UPS. I have friends there who are on green cards alone.
I am with a US major and am not a citizen. We have many nationalities here.
I do agree that Atlas requires you to be a citizen as they fly military contracts.

[aerogull]

An addition to my post.....

Spoke to some copilots a few days ago. One chap has hardly been with his company for a few months and is asking about opportunites in the west and in Europe. This person has invested a lot in his type training (and by a lot I mean A LOT!!!) and is fed up with poor CRM and SOP's. Some arrogant captains in his workplace who scream, yell and swear. Add to that a hectic work schedule and you have a real nightmare of a job. The other guys attest to this as well. These "cpatains" seem to have a chip on their shoulders with regards to people having trained in the west and returning to India for employment.

Once again, no fabrication but facts. Take it or leave it.

Aero

[yyzdub]

I didn't think expats could fly in India as F/O's and if they are to fly as Captains, they would need at least 500 hrs on type to get the license conversion.

[jumpdrive]

true
unless some1 comes alon & pays bigbucks in gov to have that l1ne of the law changed
jejejeje

[Hairy Chest]

yyzdub, dont be so sure its going to happen very soon.

There are more than 1000 xpat pilots in India today and the number is growing fast....... the DGCA may never make it official but deals will are being done and xpats are currently flying right seat.

No harm done! as far as the locals do not loose out the xpat pilots

[fhchiang]

i know of someone whose Somebody is flying for Air India as CAptain(dunno which fleet)... a Malaysian

he is making roughly RM60k per month... about 16k USD per month.

[yyzdub]

Yeah, I know expats are flying RHS however, I had heard they were contracted through agencies and are on Captain salaries... maybe not?

[jumpdrive]

the only expats that fly RHS are instructors, and in some cases due to shortage of f/o's they put 2 caps together on same flt, but 1 local f/0 must be in flight deck at all times

bye

[msbatcha777]

desipilot..... you said in ur post : "PS: I didnt have convert my licence as I kept my CPL current since 1998."
If you don't mind can you please advice me on :
Which country licence did you have?
Does that mean that if i have a foreign licence (Malaysian CPL/ME/IR/FROZEN ATPL) all current... i don't have to convert in India (I am an indian citizen)?

[DesiPilot]

Well,
I should have been more clear, I did convert my licence to Indian licenses in 1997, since then I have been coming back to India every year to keep my medical and my IR current.
As for expat flying right seat, I asked my friends yesterday and no Expat is flying right seat unless he/she is an TRI/TRE and they are training an Indian citizen who is training to be a captain or doing his route checks/loft training. As per Indian goverment regulations one of the pilots must be an Indian citizen.
As for the CRM, well, I have heard stories as well, but then its the cultural thing (not saying it is a good thing) that the junior pilot (250 or so hours) will not talk back to a Sr Captain. I will let you know of my experiences, but I am sure I am considered well experienced in India with 4600+ hours.
All the ex-pats in Air India are flying 777's. No expats in 744's. I am not sure what will happen once they start receiving 787's!!!
As for me, I intended to join as Sr. FO but I have to settle with FO until I get my Indian ATPL, as this is one of the requirments. But than again I was told in the interview that they are so short of qualifiied people that with 500 hours on type I will be eligible for an upgrade (not necessorily I will get one). The next set of ATP exams in India are in April and I am sitting in those exams (the pay difference is almost $2000 pm).
One of the bad things I have heard about aviation in India is rostering/scheduling. They seem to work only a day in advance. So you will know your schedule for next day a day before. Only Jet gives you a weeks schedule in advance. So if you are coming from USA, like me, you can forget about months schedule in advance. But I am sure with time this will change as well, as they can better utilize their crews with advance scheduling.
MSBatcha777,
You will have to convert your licence to indian licence. Pass either the conversion exam (one exam) or regular exam (three exams). You are exempted from technical exam. You will also be required to pass class I medical, a gft by day and night and IR skill test. You will also need ME rating, I suggest get in touch with DGCA and try to get an NOC to complete your ME course and skill test in Malaysia. There are only a few clubs that have ME airplane and examiner available and they will charge you an arm and a leg. (Orient in Pondicherry charges Rs 25,000 per hour for a Seneca III, thats approx US$550 per hour).

[msbatcha777]

Hello Desipilot...... i already have 49hrs ME (Partinavia and Seneca IV)...... but i have only 80hrs PIC in total.

The Conversion exams can be taken any time or there is a schedule? DGCA isnot responding to my enquiries.....

I can't validate my licence? Instead of converting there in India?

[DesiPilot]

You can find schedule at http://dgca.nic.in/sched_2006.pdf

You'd need at least 100 hours P1 for issue of license.

[Woodwrecker]

Desi:

What is the difference between a Senior FO and a just an FO at Kingfisher?

Look for the private email I sent you a few minutes ago.

For all you guys out there on the forum, I will have to apologize for not being familiar with all the ins and outs of expat flying and the terminology that you folks use. I will very possibly have to learn the hard way, as the company I fly for has a precarious future, especially if the pilots and management don't sign a consensual agreement in the near future.

[DesiPilot]

Any one with a CPL IR can be an FO whilst to be a Sr. FO you must hold the ancient SCPL (doesnt exist anymore) or ATPL and 500 hours of airline experience. (The 500 hours vary from airline to airline).

[DesiPilot]

I take it back not anyone but any Indian citizen

[picollo]

I have a few questions for you Desipilot,
Does kingfisher require you to pay for training?
What is the pay like? What was the interview like? would you have any info on benefits like medical, vacation sick leave etc??
thanks

[DesiPilot]

I am yet to discuss the benefits with the HR dept. Kingfisher is the only airline that do not charge for training but they do make you sign a five year contract/five post dated checks of Rs 400,000 each. At the end of each year with KF you get one check back, so if you stay with them for five you do not have to pay anything. Now, if you leave before five years, KF will cash the remaining checks.

Pay, for first four months while on training and until endorsment in your licence Rs 75000 pm (approx $1=Rs44), after that an FO makes Rs 112,000 pm and a Sr. FO makes Rs.196,000 pm. All these numbers are before taxes and for 70 hours of flying pm and doesnt include any per diem. Anything over 70 hours you get paid overtime.

[9Ws]

Benefits? Standard "Indian" airline benefits.

Air-conditioned car pick-up and drop for flights. 5-star hotel accommodation when away from base.

Decent medical insurance for you and family (cashless hospital card etc), Accident Insurance, Loss of Life and Loss of Licence insurance.

Unlimited "subject-to-load" tickets anywhere on the KF network for the pilot, spouse, kids and parents (not siblings tho) by paying just the taxes which are presently just Rs.221 per sector per person.

Interline deals are being signed with many IATA international airlines as we speak. KLM and Air Arabia deals already in place for ID100 travel (just taxes to be paid).

15 "working days" Paid Leave per year (...about to change to "30 straight-days" per year), 7 days Casual Leave per year, 10 days Sick Leave per year.

"Deal" and Salary... as mentioned by Desi, except...
1. Overtime for F/Os presently paid at Rs.1400 per hour in excess of 70 hours per month and
2. F/O salary probably to increase from Rs.1,12,000 to ~Rs.1,46,000 in keeping with market standards.

These figures are for A320 pilots. ATR pilots salaries are presently being worked out. Should be ready soon. Heard they won't be much different from the 320 salaries

Don't be surprised if some of you find yourselves being recruited for the ATR, with a promised progression on to the 320 in a year or two. Don't worry, KF is good for their word and the deal will be honoured as opposed to some other airlines who did not in the past. It should be written in the agreement somewhere as well.

Actually, some low-time pilots might even benefit from going up via the ATR route and not consider themselves cheated or unlucky for not getting on to the 320 straight up (and thereby opt to join another airline offering them something else).

Why….?

Remember, there is a lot to learn to fly an aircraft the way it was supposed to be flown. Use the ATR as a stepping stone on to the KF 320s or your next big aircraft. The ATR only is a little cousin of the 320 (concepts are similar), so if you fly that well for maybe 1000-1500 hours over 2 years... you'll sail thru the 320 training, move along well up the KF ladder and then you're set... A330s (soon), A380s and A350s one day.

Make a good choice... and good luck! :ok:

[picollo]

9W,
some more questions if you dont mind,
How many days off a month can one expect at Kingfisher? Also how many days prior does one know the schedule?
How is the CRm situation, I have heard horror stories about AI ,IA etc??
thanks

[9Ws]

All of you should understand that those days of rule at AI and IA are over. Those horror stories are now a thing of the past, and these are the days of CRM, younger and more polished (?) pilots (...at least relative to the old days :) )

Complaints against agressive/non-conforming pilots are dealt with seriously as no one wants such pilots in their airline. One such pilot got the boot 6 months ago and another is being closely watched. Even managers are getting younger and are of a younger generation. So interacting with them too is a lot easier.

KF's roster should settle down to a 6 day ON 1 day OFF pattern, but that's because things are pretty hectic with a start-up operation.... training-wise, increasing schedules and fast-arriving aircraft. Just can't help it, it happens everywhere especially when recruitment (local resources) doesn't keep up with expansion and/or failure rate of pilots sent for the type rating are high.

A 7-day roster is provided nowdays (at least they do a good job attempting to) about 2 days in advance. But that too is expected to improve once the computerised rostering system (software) is in place. With any luck it may settle down to a 5 ON 2 OFF (likely) or 4 ON 3 OFF (less likely) if these suggestions are accepted. But almost every airline in India follows the DGCA FDTL minimums which calls for a mandatory 7th day OFF... and therefore follow the 6 ON 1 OFF roster pattern so as to always have an available pilot.

[Left Wing]

9W so you are no more with Jet?

[airbus57]

Hi folks just joined the site. I am a captain with a Caribbean airline flying A320 , got a possible job offer in India so i am curious about life in Bangalor .Your help ,info,and advise would be appreciated . THANKS P.D:)

[Vimd23]

which airline are u talking about ? With that in mind it will be alot easier to clarify any doubts or questions u have .

cheers
vimd23