Please, tell me good news...

[sam34]

Hello everybody,

I have got some bad news from france, because Air France would require in the futur (march 2006) maybe a bac+2, it is Two years of studies in a french university.
the correspondence is :

Baccalaureat (france)

=

(i think) 5 certificats General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE) and 2 certificats du Advanced level du General Certificate of Education (GCE-'A' Level).

So, do you know if the companies in UK require more that it's written above?
must you do many years in a university ? (i think it's bachelor, itsn't it?)

many thank's

sam, a french disappointed...:uhoh:

[Ropey Pilot]

Hi Sam,

To my knowledge no airlines in the UK require any type of university education. I do not believe that many require 'A' levels either - most accept the ATPL exams as proof of your academic suitability.

Having said that though I would not have thought that many people with such a low level of formal education would be called to interview given the number of applicants at the moment - unless you had a good reason to have left school at 16 your CV may look a little on the thin side.

Good luck wherever you end up (and if you are still at school don't leave in too much haste - it is much harder to go back later in life if you find you need to)

[Dirty Harry 76]

Sam34

What makes you think that it will be easier to get a job in the UK if you dont meet the academic requirements in France.

There are Wannabes everywhere in the UK, some with University Degrees (me and my friends), still looking for there first job.

[Farrell]

Sam34
still looking for there first job.

....and with spelling like that.......:}

[ifleeplanes]

This is NOT a spelling test it is an open forum.

[moggiee]

This is NOT a spelling test it is an open forum.
However, the ability to communicate effectively is a requirement for a professional pilot.

The inability to differentiate between there, their and they're (as well as your and you're) indicates a basic lack of understanding of the English language.

It is also VERY irritating (but not as bad as txt spk).

[moggiee]

....and with spelling like that.......:}
You missed the absence of the "?" at the end of the first sentence and his "me and my friends" - which should be "my friends and me".

[strafer]

ifleeplanes - you may think that people like moggiee, I and many others are pedantic bores for pulling you up on your spelling and grammar. The fact is, if I see badly written English (foreign posters excepted), I automatically presume that it's because you're a little bit thick.

That may be incorrect, but, and here's the aviation related point, I suspect many people in charge of pilot hiring feel the same. I've been responsible for recruitment in the past and if someone can't be arsed to use their spellchecker before they send out their CV, I put it straight in the bin.

[Charlie Zulu]

You missed the absence of the "?" at the end of the first sentence and his "me and my friends" - which should be "my friends and me".

Should it not be, "my friends and I"? :D

Sorry, I shall disappear with the pedantic hat right away...

That may be incorrect, but, and here's the aviation related point, I suspect many people in charge of pilot hiring feel the same. I've been responsible for recruitment in the past and if someone can't be arsed to use their spellchecker before they send out their CV, I put it straight in the bin.

I just hope that the spell checker option has been set to English rather than the default American-English. :D

[moggiee]

Should it not be, "my friends and I"? :D

No it should not. Because you would say:

"There are Wannabes everywhere in the UK, some with University Degrees (me)"

when you add "my friends" it should become:

"There are Wannabes everywhere in the UK, some with University Degrees (my friends and me)".

You would not say:

"There are Wannabes everywhere in the UK, some with University Degrees (I)"

so it is not "my friends and I".

Next question?

[ifleeplanes]

This is a posting by a French chap who is probably using a second language.

Answer the guy, help him out, thats what Pprune is for isn't it? It isnt his CV, it is a question on an open forum, so yes you are being bores.

[willby]

Agree with ifeeplanes.
Willby

[FFP]

Educational requirements are just another filter for airlines / recruitment. It would seem to be the next logical step for operators in the UK (I know Air Canada quotes Post Secondary Education as an advantage)

I have 9 GCSE's, 3 A levels and no degree. The fact I have no degree has no bearing on my flying ability. I know people with a 1st from Cambridge that I wouldn't trust to do up their own shoes.

And as for the spelling / grammar police, I agree it is a tad annoying and the fact that a CV would be thrown in the bin is true, but if I see it on PPRuNe, I notice the error and move on. This "one upmanship" that goes one with "You spelt this wrong" is boring and tedious. Save it for the schoolkids.

[stefair]

Educational requirements are just another filter for airlines / recruitment. It would seem to be the next logical step for operators in the UK (I know Air Canada quotes Post Secondary Education as an advantage)


NOT only in Canada! All majors in the U.S. require their recruits to be graduates. Like Air Canada Delta quotes Post Sec Ed as an advantage as well. Quatar even require their recruites to be engineering/scientific graduates.

AF apparently have raised their requirements as well.

Clearly, it's just a matter of time when it will become standard in UK airlines' recruitment processes.

[BEagle]

So how long before digi-yoof wannabes begin to realise that "me n me m8s" is not an acceptable from of prose? "My friends and I" being the correct form.

"Nah, sdoinmeedin, snofair".....:rolleyes:

A certain scholarship scheme requires candidates to complete a written narrative. Many are indescribably poor. Some of the best-written come from those for whom English is not their mother tongue. Which only goes to show how appallingly low UK educational standards now are.

[FFP]

I fully agree Beags. But for the rest of us, it just gets boring waiting for the inevitable school lesson to appear on the thread as the next post.

If the initial poster really is inept at spelling / grammar, then they will find out when they fail to get an interview. Now if someone comes on here with " I is not able to get in a job can ne 1 explian why not ?" then give them the lecture.

It's not long before most threads degenerate into what I would imagine to be an ISS meeting :ok:

[ali1]

Hi THERE(hope that's ok with you english examiners),

I have 9 average GCSE's and 2 bad A-Levels and my qualifications have not stopped me in my career so far. As said earlier if you have the dedication and academic ability to pass the ATPL theory, then you should be ok. Futhermore, some airlines use verbal and numerical reasoning tests as part of THEIR selection process and I guess that is to weed out the academic from the not so academic.

In short, chill - shouldn't be a problem.

Ali1

[Send Clowns]

In my opinion a degree makes little difference to most employers. I know of only one that generally prefers graduate pilots, and that is a fairly small operator which is reducing its UK operation at the moment, rather than expanding. The market is good, I know quite a few people who have recently started in commercial operations (I include myself) or are waiting on promising interviews. I suspect that Harry's impatient attitude is not helping him, and the poor grammar might be part of that. Of course I might be wrong; that and the apparent rudeness to Sam might just be hurried posting on Harry's part, and he might come across much better in an interview.

Moggiee

Actually, correctly, yes you should use "I" not me. It is the subject not he object. To confirm, note that you would say "I, with a degree", not "me, with a degree".

Ifleeplanes

The criticism is of Dirty Harry's grammar. He appears to be English and suggesting that it is difficult to get a job in the UK at the moment and that sam34 will struggle here without a degree (I even infer, perhaps incorrectly, that Harry doesn't like the idea of the French trying to get a job here).

FFP

Would often agree, but in this case the errors make Harry's post less smooth and easy to read.

[kebab kid]

oh come on, the grammar tests are usually the best posts. more interesting than bloody aeroplanes, i get enough of that all week.
despite the well reasoned argument, correct english remains 'my friends and i', still never mind. writing there instead of their, or your instead of you're (or yaw, if you like), aint a crime against humanity - if its typed absentmindedly on pprune. if someone sent me a cv in that state though, i suppose i'd use it for toilet paper.
the real giveaways are things like the use of 'of' in place of 'have', which you often see, as in 'you must of been in the special needs class' or ‘i should of learned what a preposition is’

and before some so and so asks, yes, i’ve got something better to do!!
bon weekend!

[BEagle]

"....I have 9 average GCSE's and 2 bad A-Levels..."

Apostrophe abuse alert!

[Farrell]

Wow! Didn't think this thread would've travelled that far!

[maxdrypower]

I didnt think it would get this far either I must say. However for all the shakesperean traditionalists amongst us I have to say that I couldnt have posted a thread on a french website like the originator did so lets cut the bugger some slack . Just a shame most French pilots wont accept english as language at french airports , perhaps having frenchman flying in the uk miught educate them somewhat, obviously after we all have jobs .

[Dirty Harry 76]

Ah yes Mr Farrel............ Well, my degree wasnt a lightweight degree and was very involved in maths and physics.....probably my strong point. Sorry about my p***s poor english.

I see you are from France. Guess you didn't like the tone of my original post. Well i can tell you it was going in exactly the direction you thought. Why would we want someone who can't meet the academic standards in their own country in the UK? After all, we have plenty of Wannabees here already looking for their first break?

As there are jobs in the UK its becoming nothing but a dumping ground for unemployed pilots and wanabees who cant find work in their own countries. I read posts all the time about people ranting on about buying type ratings etc etc. Well, the fact is in the UK if the locals didnt do it the guys/gals from over the channel would flood in and take the places anyway. A major reason in the UK why the wounderful Accountants employed by the airlines can get away with scams such as TRSS or we will sponsor you BUT go to the HSBC and borrow £60K etc, they know that compared with 10 years ago, if the natives refuse to pay for such schemes, they will just ship in guys/gals from overseas. I only wish in the UK we had the same sort of work restrictions that they have in the USA so we can get back to some decent T & C s in this country and stabilise the situation. Oh, Im sorry I forgot we are part of the EU. Ok, I have a vote as someone reminded me, Ill be using it!

[Farrell]

Harry,

I'm not really sure if an airline gives a toss about where you come from. I'm sure that, if not already, then someday you will make a great airline pilot. I wish you well in your quest. You're going to have a ball!

In fact, I daresay that maybe.....just maybe.....you might have even dreamed about someday getting an offer to fly a widebodied jet - the job of a lifetime for most "Wannabees".

However, with regard to your question: "Why would we want someone who can't meet the academic standards in their own country in the UK?" - would you be prepared to take that 'oh-so-desired' widebodied job for Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific, in the knowledge that your academic standards might not make the grade over there? How's your Mandarin and Cantonese??

The spelling jibe was in good humour. The majority of readers seemed to have copped on to that.
But then again, maybe my humour may have been lost in translation, because after all, with your powers of academia and airline pilot quality judgement, you have worked out that I come from France!

[sam34]

excuse me, but I don't understand, what is a "wanabee" pilot ??:confused:

[Send Clowns]

"Wanabee" is a contraction of "want to be" - i.e. someone who wants to be a pilot is a wannabe, however it is spellt.

Harry - so how about all the British pilots working in the Middle and Far East and in Africa? Should they all be forced back to this country? Don't see much hope for your job prospects then. Even in Europe we get great advantages, as we seem to have a healthier light freight industry, taking work on the continent with British firms employing British or European pilots pilots.

Why do you reiterate your first point? It made little impact then, and has been refuted, yet you repeat it withuot any attempt at reasoned argument. The job market in the UK is strong, and the pilots without jobs are not missing out due to lack of academic merit. In fact of the many new pilots I have known in the past few years (working in the training industry) the one who has been most successful and has just moved onto his second job flying medium-range jets had no academic background and failed one of his ground exams 6 times. He was however a very good pilot, enthusiastic and willing to put effort into finding a job, and he is a really great person, very well-liked and with a lot of character. The sort of person I would want to share a flight deck with.

[Fellow Aviator]

Harry has a bias regarding EU (and foreigners in the UK). Without EU a considerably lower number of UK pilots would be without employment. Do you think that without integration the market would be the same. Something personal maybe?

[Ropey Pilot]

I love the way that people use the fact that their degree was a scientific one to explain basic errors in spelling and grammer that are (or should) have been taught at the age of thirteen!

Just because one is a 'mathmo' it doesn't mean that you have never been taught to read and write - it was only in the late '80s that Oxford dropped 'O' level Latin as a requirement to enter the university regardless of what one was reading:uhoh:

(and Im sure I have made error's in the above; but not of the thier /there variety ;) )

[Dirty Harry 76]

In a previous non aviation job I lived in the USA. In the US if you have a proffession for which there are too many Natives already qualified and looking for work, no work permit, no job = they dont need you.

I am saddened when I read posts on pprune like "Im disillusioned I cant find a job, On the Verge of bankrupcy, 4 years and 2700hrs instructing = no job". I feel for these people. In the UK there is much to be positive about there are jobs available, however, we have too many low houred guys/gals and compared with 10 yrs ago we now have all the low houred people from across the channel here fighting for the same jobs who now have the right to work in the UK. Lets take Scandinavia for example, for those poor low houred people theres probably a slim chance compared to the UK that they will ever get on the bottom of the ladder. I think its tragic for those people in the UK who where educated here, trained here, paid taxes and the end result is the Country they were brought up in cant even offer them a job! On top of that their competing with every other low hours guy/gal in Europe from countries where there is simply no ab initio jobs and a complete disproportionate number of wanabees per head of population. I ask is it really the job of the UK to accomodate these people with jobs when our own qualified new Pilots cant find work? The only winners in all of this are they Airlines who have a greater number of candidates to choose from and then ask whos prepared to pay for a Type Rating and accept the terms and conditions on offer etc etc.

I am also appauled by some of the things I see going on in the UK. A well known Charter Airline recently recruited 4 people, none of them where from the UK. One of the persons in question trained here, borrowed the money from a UK bank and then filed for bankrupcy.......and got away with it. I find this disgusting. Is it any wonder the HSBC wont lend any more money for Pilot training. Ryanair for example, for all the People they employ and Aircraft operating from the UK and Ireland...........not one of there approved Ab initio training schools is based in the UK or EI. And our own BALPA managed to bring on an Italian girl at their careers conference in October to explain to un employed British wannabees how to get your first job in the UK. Pherhaps I can expect a reciprical invitation from the Italians.....Not. Thanks BALPA, you prove my point. Believe me I could go on.

Fellow Aviator - You may well be right. All I know is the UK is a member of that club called the EU. We pay more into it than we get out, we provide financial support to loss making French famers and we are a net importer.

Send Clowns - Point taken but those guys/gals in the Middle East are not working there in ab initio jobs.

All I am doing is making a stand for those in the UK that cant find jobs and trying to explain the MAJOR reason in my opineon why you cant find work in the current surge of hiring. I only feel and wish for you guys / gals we had the same work restrictions as they impose in the USA to give you a fair chance to find work with the best T & Cs.

And finally, as brutal as it sounds why should we in the UK accomodate someone with a pilot job when they cant meet the requirements for that line of work in their own country? After all we ALREADY have suitable trained and qualified people who cant find work?