Who Let the Door Shut, Who, Who ,Who, Who!

[javelin]

So, there was this Cabin Crew visit organised and they looked around the aircraft and during the visit, someone shut the flightdeck door ........ It locked.......no one had a key, it had to be flown from Manchester to allow the service to continue !. .. .hic !. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 22:19: Message edited by: javelin ]</small>

[Carnage Matey!]

Who flew it from Manchester? Why didn't they open the door? I no understand? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[FlapsOne]

Sorry Javelin.....Ican't work this one out either.

[PaperTiger]

It was the key ?

[qrh]

No flight deck present, CC close door to Flt Deck when finished, NEXT flight deck cant get in coz release to lock is...inside the flight deck. Particular company involved dont use keys...get it?

[sweeper]

so, if a fire started in the cockpit, they would have just watched it burn...,waiting for a key to give permission to enter???. .strange people.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[mustafagander]

Am I reading this correctly - there is no access to the flt deck except if the door release is activated??. .So we've just had a ground incident (over run or something) and the pilots are incapacitated, the a/c has caught fire and the door must be broken down to enable the crew to assist. Great potential for things to get ugly.. .Surely ALL operators have a spare key located outside the flt deck, surely!. .. .Lose 5 marks for spelling!. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 03:11: Message edited by: mustafagander ]</small>

[Airbubba]

I can remember less than a year ago many UK pilots ridiculed the idea of a locked cockpit door even after almost losing a BA 747 in Nairobi.. .. .I guess you can call this progress...

[Golden Rivet]

The airline in question would'nt rhyme with why travel ?

[NigelOnDraft]

"So we've just had a ground incident (over run or something) and the pilots are incapacitated, the a/c has caught fire and the door must be broken down to enable the crew to assist. Great potential for things to get ugly". .. .errr... but the doors are now reinforced, locked mechanically from inside, and can only be released by a pilot unstrapping and unlocking the mechanism (if it has not distorted and jammed). They "cannot" be broken down. And the rules say they are locked as such from prior pushback to after shutdown.. .. .In the scenario you mention, the pilots are left to die. There is no alternative plan.... .. .NoD

[A and C]

This whole thing smells of Bullsh*t as i understand it if you take the AC electrical power off the aircraft the door unlocks.. .I,m sure some one at manchester would have had the idea to pull the plug.. .. .I think this is the start of another myth.

[Tandemrotor]

Airbubba. .. ."I can remember less than a year ago many UK pilots ridiculed the idea of a locked cockpit door....". .. .Let's not forget, on Sept 11th, ALL the aircraft involved had similar 'locked door' policies. So should we assume those cowards thought the policy ridiculous also!. .. ."Hey Osama, let's hit them right where they most expect it!". .. .Progress??

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;Let's not forget, on Sept 11th, ALL the aircraft involved had similar 'locked door' policies. So should we assume those cowards thought the policy ridiculous also!&lt;&lt;. .. .Nope, we've had locked cockpit doors in the U.S. for almost 30 years now. Glad to see you making progress in this area!

[KitKatPacificuk]

Soz still don't get it! If the next Cockpit Crew came along and couldn't get in the cocpit, who exactly flew it from Manchester if there was no-one in the cockpit?

[CBLong]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> no one had a key, ***it*** had to be flown from Manchester to allow the service to continue ! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">"It" was a suitable key, not the aircraft with the locked flight deck door!. .. .Do I get a prize?

[Airbubba]

The story of a crew trapped by a locked cockpit door has been a possible urban legend in the States for years. One version has both pilots of a People Express 737 locked out of the cockpit in flight after trying to troubleshoot a balky door latch solenoid. They supposedly use a crash ax to break back in. Of course, the crash ax is inside the cockpit so this version has its challenges.. .. .As I have pointed out in the past, regulatory changes have a way of filtering across the Atlantic. Another example of this trend is drug and alcohol testing for pilots which has been required for years in the U.S. but is still quite novel in Europe.. .. .Here's a fairly recent BBC article where the pre- 9-11 cockpit door policy in the UK is discussed:. .. ."BA can see no reason to keep their flight doors locked," he said. . .. .Friday, 29 December, 2000, 11:38 GMT . .Security in the skies. .. .Cockpits contain tools the crew can use against attackers. .. .An unlocked door is all that stood between the British Airways flight crew and the crazed passenger who stormed into the cockpit and tried to seize the controls. . .. .Former BA pilot Eric Moody told BBC News Online that although most American airlines keep cockpit doors locked for security reasons, this is not BA's policy. . .. ."BA can see no reason to keep their flight doors locked," he said. . .. .But Mr Moody added that the cockpit would have contained tools that the crew could have used against their attacker. . .. ."They keep an axe in the cockpit to break out in the event of an emergency," he said. . .. .Short of flying security and armed guards around, there is only so much you can do. . . .Air Transport Intelligence editor, Kieran Daly . .Mr Moody also said the cabin crew have access to restraints that would have been used to contain the passenger who entered the flight deck. . .. .A BA spokesman confirmed that the door to the cockpit was unlocked. . .. ."It is normal procedure as the cabin crew are in and out of the flight deck during the flight," he told BBC News Online. . .. .Air Transport Intelligence editor Kieran Daly, said the cockpit door could not be locked as it would leave stewards and stewardesses vulnerable to attack from passengers on the other side. . .. ."The reality is that there is quite a lot of coming and going from the main cabin. . .. ."There are a lot of times when you have to open the door and attackers are going to find a way through." . .. .Possible attackers . .. .Mr Daly added that it is impossible for any airline to guarantee security. . .. ."Short of flying security and armed guards around, there is only so much you can do. . .. ."The whole theory of security in aircraft is to prevent the sort of people who you do not want from getting on the plane in the first place. . .. ."But there never can be absolute guaranteed screening of all possible attackers," he concluded. . .. .<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1092000/1092286.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1092000/1092286.stm</a>. .. .Also, an account of the BA NBO incident may be found here:. .. .<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1092000/1092164.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1092000/1092164.stm</a>

[flapsforty]

Bubba I know how strongly you felt on this subject already before sept 11. . .With all due respect for you and your opinions, I do remain greatly amazed that the European companies now implement a policy which clearly didn't prevent any artrocities in the one country that has had locked cockpit doors for 30 years. . .Where's the logic in that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. . Right lads, we've all seen in the States how a locked cockpit door didn't make a blind bit of difference, so let's make sure we all lock our doors from now on! . .. .Yeah, right.......... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Jet II]

AFAIK there have been no instances where a locked flight deck door has saved anyone.. .. .In the example of an aircraft accident where the pax are escaping and the flight deck crew incapacitated the crew would have to be left to burn.. .. .If there was a lock on the door of the BA 1-11 where the flight deck window blew out, the captain would now be dead - it was only the purser grabbing his legs that saved him from exiting the aircraft.. .. .I have a feeling that now all the airlines are beefing up flightdeck doors - in a few years after we have seen some accidents caused by these new doors we will be re-instationg the old ones <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .(by flight deck door lock I mean the new deadbolt type - not the old electric ones that are easily overcome) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 28 March 2002, 16:40: Message edited by: Jet II ]</small>

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;AFAIK there have been no instances where a locked flight deck door has saved anyone.&lt;&lt;. .. .As this pre 9-11 article points out, we have been lucky. I think the locked door at least provided some warning of the impending intrusions.. .. ."Paradoxically, some international carriers allow the cockpit door to remain unlocked during a flight. Any passenger can walk right in, even those who might mistake the cockpit for the lavatory. U.S. airlines adopt a quite different policy, however. They require that the cockpit door remain locked at all times during flight, except, of course, while crew members are entering and exiting.". .. .<a href="http://www.salon.com/travel/diary/hest/2000/04/08/cockpits/" target="_blank">http://www.salon.com/travel/diary/hest/2000/04/08/cockpits/</a>. .. .I would say the locked cockpit door at least slowed down this attacker (mentioned as well in the article above):. .. .<a href="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/alaska000408.html" target="_blank">http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/alaska000408.html</a>. .. .Mr. Bradley later copped a plea and was released citing a rare (hope so!) medical condition:. .. .<a href="http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/043001_iteam_air_rage_folo.html" target="_blank">http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/043001_iteam_air_rage_folo.html</a>. .. .I realize Balpa has always opposed the idea of a locked cockpit door, for example:. .. .<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1629000/1629465.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1629000/1629465.stm</a>. .. .And while on the topic of crewmembers locked out by a cockpit door, here are some more of the urban legends including the crash ax(e) story:. .. .<a href="http://www.snopes2.com/travel/airline/fireaxe.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes2.com/travel/airline/fireaxe.htm</a>

[Plastique]

I remember a case about 2 years ago with an unnamed British A340 operator (now let me think who could that be...) where the first officer broke the key off in the FCRC door while walking past it. The aircraft was operating LHR-ATH backing up an A320 in maintenance.. .. .Anyway, even though there was a spare key (used for the LD-MCR), our friend took the crash axe from its stowage behind P1 and hacked his way in.. .. .In doing so he destroyed enough of the $120k structure to run up a repair bill of £20,000, not to mention the 48 hour down time, and the operational limitation until the repair could be designed approved and scheduled in. Basically the aircraft could only be operated on routes where crew rest was not required, as the strength of the unit was compromised too much to be occupied.. .. .Again no names, but you know who you are... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Dockjock]

No, no, no, gents. *It* was an autopilot- dontcha remember that post-911 the safest avenue is to have no pilots at all?! The plane flew itself from Manchester....or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[Fast Erect]

Javelin old son, you really must not drink and post.. .. . Did your father not teach you anything?

[con-pilot]

Well I’ll admit that it happened to me, on the ground. We had landed somewhere, I can’t remember where now and for one reason or another all three of us left the cockpit (this was in a B-727). You guessed it, cockpit door was closed by one of the cabin crew and it locked.. .. .Yes we all had spare keys, in our briefcases, which were in the cockpit. Because who we were and whom we hauled none of the cabin crew were allowed to have keys to the cockpit door. Our passengers were prisoners.. .. .So there we were standing at the cockpit door with about 100 federal prisoners staring at us while we tried to pick the lock with a penknife. I got a lot of offers from the prisoners to unlock the door for us in exchange for an early release from prison. But the offer I liked the best was from one guy who allowed that he really couldn’t pick the lock but he would be happy to go look for help.. .. .Well we did get the door unlocked and went on our merry way. And yes I did have to write a bunch of letters explaining what happened.

[javelin]

Slow Flacid, No, but he taught you father everything he knew - Ha Votre Masturbatuer du la Premier Classe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[late pushback]

Unfortunately, this incident DID hapen and a Ravenair aircraft was called in to fly a key up. Removing electrical power DOES NOT unlock the door on the particular model of the A320........ . . .Even if it did, what about if the lock broke in the locked position?. . . . <small>[ 29 March 2002, 21:24: Message edited by: late pushback ]</small>

[Mycroft]

Surely in the above overrun scenario, the CC's responibility would be to get the PAX evacuated, primary access to the cockpit would be by crash tender from outside. There is always the possibility in a crash that the door would jam through airframe distortion.

[Hand Solo]

I suspect that if the impact was sufficiently hard to distort the door frame then the door itself would have popped out as they are not particularly robust. Awaiting rescue by the firemen is not a prospect which fills me with excitement. Much easier and quicker to have the cabin crew pull you out from inside the aircraft than wait for the fire crews to roll up and cut their way in from the outside.