Why is RT in ME so bad

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Just a question from a frustrated ATCer...

When did readbacks and callsign readbacks with clearences become optional? and why when a/c hold inbound to dubai do they not listen out for instructions about decent heading holding etc?

I ask this as the last night shift I worked there were over 80 times I had to chase a/c up for a readback or a callsign with the readback. It may sound like a trivial thing but with emirates gulfair saudia etc etc all operating similar numbered callsigns at the same time on the same route confusion is very easy. Scary to think of the consequecnes if decent issued to UAE19 only to have UAE9 (being held up due traffic below) read it back with no callsign..... As far as not listening during the sequence not only does it increase the workload of the atc but also holds up the other a/c behind and above you. Having to chase an a/c 8 times for decent/vectors is not only frustrating but dangerous as well.

This is a serious question I want to find out about and not "having a go" a pilots. I understand that some ATC can be very lax when it comes RT and that needs to be sorted out as well. But that can be sorted out by leaning across to the guy next to me and getting a readback etc. Bit harder to do with the airlines as other then here we have no real way to find out things.

And before we hop on the "must be the rusian/asian/middle eastern language problem" of the 83 times I had to get a readback or a callsign with the readback 70 of them were from english/australian/americian/canadian etc pilots. The others were were middle eastern pilots. russian/asian were best. Again this is not a dig at pilots but a genuine concern for your future and my licence..

thanks:ok:

[turtleneck]

the answer is on different threads throughout these forums:
fatigue, fatigue, fatigue, low moral, low moral, fatigue, fatigue, no vacation, fatigue, fatigue, awful rostering and no change in vue.
ttn

[Desert Whine]

You're right. The only thing is, it often degenerates down to neither the pilot nor the ATCO using the callsign although this worst case is usually not with UAE but with the Indians and other 3rd world ATC wallies.

Very disappointing to hear the cream of western aviators picking up the habit.

And what's with everyone using the new ICAO R/T phrase:

"Any chance of...... blah blah (level/direct to/speed change)

Any chance???? WTF???

I blame the yanks. They always start this kind of thing, eg starting a readback with:

"Okaaaaaaayyyyy, understand direct to...... blah blah" (without a callsign) Now everyone does it.

Or...... :

"Charlie charlie..." WTF???

Do you have to wobble your head when you say that???

[Farmer 1]

Pedantry, or is it pedantism? Actually, it can be both - being a pedant, I've looked them up.

Seriously, though, there is a time and a place for both, and this I think is one of those times and places.

I do not envy you having to attempt it, though.

Best of luck.



"Charlie Charlie"? What's the problem with that? What does it mean? What do you want it to mean? Anything you like, as far as I can understand.

[Desert Whine]

"Charlie Charlie"? What's the problem with that? What does it mean? What do you want it to mean? Anything you like, as far as I can understand.Well you're an idiot then.

I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear man, will still be an idiot.

[Captain Bug Smasher]

Come on lads, surely you know the rule of thumb, the longer you have been flying, the worse your R/T becomes. Oh and don't forget you have to make your voice sound really deep and speak painfully slowly every time you press the PTT switch.

My personal favorite (you hear it all the time) 'XXX/XXX Airborne', so much for the SID name and altitude passing let alone what runway you're off. I guess though we are all lucky that the callsign was passed.

[Farmer 1]

OK, Desert Whine, exactly what does Charlie Charlie mean? You asked the question.

Winston Churchill - limp wrist? You are more drink than you thunk you are.

[4legsaday]

After just three postings this thread is turning into "charlie, charlie" blah, blah.
jees`.

I do understand Ali Bin Somewhere well, it doesn´t matter if you are tired or you have a low moral just do a professional ATC that´s what everybody can expect from you, there might be the safety of a flight affected. Everyone is working for his own professionality, and as the skies are becoming more and more crowded we need some discipline. There are also the ATC guys working the nights, my opinion only.

Found the following regarding the "Charlie Charlie".

"CC Means "I understand." CC is an abbreviation for "click click," Comes from a pilot habit of pressing the mic button to confirm an order rather than actually replying."

http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/guides/dictionary.shtml

hope this helps
cheerio Miss Sophie

[critical winge]

Sorry DES your quote

I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear man, will still be an idiot.

It should have been (factual to a woman, see the capital corrections)

I, on the other hand, am slightly pissed. But to paraphrase that limp-wrist, Winnie Churchhill, tomorrow I will be sober but you, dear WOman, will still be UGLY! :eek:

Sorry to be specific, but it was a classic.

Rgds cw

[03Rnow30R]

Obfus..., don't get so touchy. As the man said at the beginning of this thread, this is not meant to be an ATC vs Pilot thing.
This is becoming a genuine concern for ATC's. The pain in the butt readback is something that has to be done according to our company and GCAA procedure. We would love it if you could fly 250kts to 6 miles, you are probably "able" to, but not allowed to, because your company has rules and regs that if broken EVEN ONCE get you drinking tea in the chief pilots office. In the same way, if I let a lack of a readback slip every now and then and something goes wrong, I am the one suspended pending investigation and taking the consequences while the pilot is already on his next leg to wherever.
Regarding the EGKK single runway business. I agree, they are good at it and good for them. Once again, we are bound by rules and also an ever changing load of procedures as the airport here changes almost every two weeks during the different stages of construction. Unfortunately the pilots are not aware of the half of it, maybe that is also half the problem. Please take that into account next time you are judging the performance of the controllers here.
:ok:

[Watchdog]

There really isn't any excuse but laziness in sloppy R/T. It will hit the fan thought when someone spears it in because of mis-coms. We've seen it before(Tenerife comes to mind).

Ali Bin - keep hassling them for a readback - as frustrating as it is - maybe if all the ATCs insisted then some learning may occur ( you guys have to babysit sometimes)

[filejw]

Oh ,So if you are fatigued you are lazy?.

[FMC OVERHEAT]

CC= C'est Correct in French meaning that's right

[FMC OVERHEAT]

RT in ME is bad I have no clue since I haven't been flying there but you should check russian controllers
Spaciba dasvedania ;)

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

I understand that fatigue is a big issue. ATC also has the same problem with max time at the console, understaffed for alot of shifts, poor equipment etc etc and this is compounded by haveing to chase for standard readbacks that are part of AIP and all pilot training.

Just a few things to consider...

With the 83 "chase ups" the other night each of exchanges should have been 2 transmissions (30 sec tops) but the majority were about 6 (about 2 min). one of the longest took 3-4min to find out if the a/c had heard the frequency change. May not sound like much but when there are 1200+ a/c entering your airspace every day (or 1 every 1.2 min) and they are not spread evenly due to the pleasures of cluster scheduling, that takes up ALOT of time at critical moments when we should be concentateing on more important tasks.

We are responsible for our own actions. So when 2 a/c have a break down of seperation, or god forbid hit, at the subsequent investigation or court of enquiry "I was fatigued" wont cut it. Yes the board will get there and say "operator/atc manager must ensure that there are more break for staff so they are not fatigued", but when all the holes in the swiss cheese line up you will still be dead and I'll still be in jail all because we were "too fatigued" to get or give a readback.

[Obfuscation]

03R,

Yeah, was a bit touchy last night( fatigued?!) so I've deleted my post. I do wonder how with the current congestion the massive expansion is all going to work, not just ATC issues but (shortage of) engineers, pilots, equipment (broken baggage belts et al). Cabin Crew bear the brunt of pax wrath and are treated like slaves by the company. Doesn't bode too well.

[Desert Whine]

Well, yes that classic quote from Churchill is correct, my version was a little different. That's why I said I was para-phrasing him!!!

But how would I know what CC means, I was the one who asked in the first place!!

Apparently CC comes from the Mexicans who say, "Si, Si..." when they mean "Yes".

[loc22550]

i have to admit that before i came to the middle east i never heard about this Famous "charlie charlie", but long time ago i did my radio course, maybe it change in between...
I remenber the standard "afirmative" but not the "charlie-charlie.."
Let´s open the jeppesen..:)

[BlueEagle]

"Charlie Charlie" was most frequently used when on HF and the connection is bad so probably not widely used until one got into Indian air space and points further East or possibly mid Pacific. Meanwhile the pax down the back will be happily chatting all around the world on interference free 'phones stowed in their arm rest!!!

[turtleneck]

ali
fatigue, low moral, bad rostering, no vacation and all the other nice sideeffects of modern aviation are by no means an excuse for what you criticise, i truly agree with that. they are merely a possible explanation. it's entirely up to the professional to anticipate such mistakes and your thread helps, at least i will be more attentive in the future.
the thing that bugs me, is that above phenomenons are never adressed at official meetings, symposiums, courses, etc. etc. it's just too sensitive to the allmighty managers and might lead to having to assume responsibilities.
it's up to us to bring up such problems, again my compliment for doing so, and to counteract as pro's as good as we can. the designated postholders in their cosy armchairs will not.
ttn

[Desert Whine]

Ahhh... so the Indians came up with "Charlie charlie", that explains it.

But if you fly into the civilised word and start saying things like "charlie charlie" or "delta delta" or "Aye Aita Pi", the very professional ATCOs will kick your fat, shiny third world @rse. And rightly so.

[mensaboy]

As a pilot here, I would have to say that our RT is at times annnoying and also inefficient to say the least.
I have found ATC in the ME to be fine in general wrt to RT, especially considering that in some cases english is not the first language of some controllers.
Here are a few of my favourite pet peeves,
''emirates 101, checking in with you, maintaining 24 OH'', should be ''UAE, emirates 101, FL240''
the missed address to the agency, the checking in and the maintaining part as well as the 24 OH is all nonsense. The maintaining part is understood as otherwise if already in a descent or climb its a different call.
giving the wrong passing altitude when switched to a new freq, it is a requirement to give it to within 100' as this allows ATC to properly verify our altitude readout.
starting each RT with, ''Roger''
''roger that, understand cleared.....'' typical of some NA, or ex airforce pilots. No kidding pal, glad you understand something, lol.
''And'' at the start of each RT
''okay, cleared'' at the start of each RT
giving a readback in various formats, for example, ''emirates 101 down to FL240'' its '' descend FL240, emirates 101'' this one gets even more confusing when multiple clearances are given together.
""ITS THE emirates 101'', why do we persist in inserting words in RT when totally unnecessary?
''charlie charlie''
''5566 coming down'', how about ''squak 5566'' as it is supposed to be
not listening out for a couple of seconds upon freq change, just to make sure we don't step on other RT
''120.7, bye'' how is ATC supposed to know who has replied to this freq change?
I realize this is somewhat pendantic but from my observations, these errors frequently cause congested frequencies and at times miscommunications. Either some pilots are too lazy to apply correct RT or simply don't know it. As an example, listen to the EK cargo guys make RT and you will quickly realize how things get distorted, protracted and confused due to lousy RT.
Yes i will reiterate that some may feel this is all minor stuff, but then answer me this, why not simply make the proper RT in the first place? It quite often makes the difference between smooth air traffic control and jumbled, confusing and often times repeated readbacks. Just my POV.

[Left Coaster]

If you still have your old copy of Tom Wolfe's :The Right Stuff". Have a look at chapter 3 (might be 5...I can't find mine!) around p 35 anyway...there's a funny section about the influence ole Chuck Yeager had on the pilots of the US and the "lollygaggin - aw shuckin - down on the farm - good ole boy" style of RT and PA's...might explain some of the problems still out there. You hear it everywhere...how about..."Center? You got any raaaaaaaad reeeeports?" The usual answer is sorry? Say again? Just a thought...Y'all:cool:

[PITA]

What a bunch of WANKERS you boys are. Must be a friggi'n blast to have a few beers with you bunch.

Do you starch and iron your underwear as well?

[Dixons Cider]

Ok, so this sthread is about poor Mid East RTP, accepted.

But at the risk of thread creep, its not just the mid east, or the 'supposed' third world. There are what I consider, some far more serious RT issues going on in the 'first' world that nobody seems to give a damn about!

I am referring to some major international airports where a large proportion of the RT is not even in English, the internationally common agreed language of aviation. There is nothing worse than being in a peice of terminal airspace, or manoeuvering on a busy aerodrome, and the aircraft around you are communicating with ATC in a completely different language. Maintaining a reasonable situational awareness of what is going on around you is a crucial part of our game, impossible to do when its not done in a common language.

This is a far greater safety issue than the pedantics that are being dicussed in this thread. Granted, the previous posts are correct in that the Mid East RTP mentioned is not perfect, but its implications on safety...negligible maybe?

Don't agree with me? Look at the report on Tenerife, the worst aviation accident to date. One of the significant factors was some of the RTP not in English, ie crews losing SA. More recently, the Italian prang with the MD and Cessna - a runway incursion partially attributed to loss of SA due to non english RTP.

This is going on daily, and even worse its accepted! I think before fingers are pointed at the the finer points, the basics have got to be sorted out. It is unacceptable given the current emphasis on reducing runway incursions......

Athens and CDG come to mind.

Get rid of the mindless patriotism, and play the game. Regulators, have some bollacks to do something about a relevant and proven safety issue.....then we can worry about the virtues of 'charlie charlie' vs 'affirm'.

[Left Coaster]

What a bunch of WANKERS you boys are. Must be a friggi'n blast to have a few beers with you bunch.
Do you starch and iron your underwear as well?

Didn't I hear you screw up a PX over the ocean the other day? Sounded like you had NO IDEA of where you where or what to say...get off the radio...putz!:uhoh:

[ironbutt57]

Attitude of the Tenerife Capt???? there were two weren't there???? What attitude....thought it was a misunderstanding of clearance......glad you're a mind-reader you got the "boy" right

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Agree with all the sentiments about the lazy R/T and the effect it has, not only on ATC, but also other aircraft. For example, you are on a heading to the Nth of track to establish the 15 NM spacing we need to give Dubai App for straight in arrivals, and just as we are about to turn you back to the south, UAE9961 B744, calls "Good evening UAE, this is UAEninety-nine sixty-one Heavy, a Boeing 747 400, checking in with you, still under Tehran control, cleared to 27-oh, to be 27-oh twenty before ORSAR, estimating ORSAR time thirty two, landing dubai, information Juliet recieved." In the meantime with the 130 kt tailwind the aircraft on the heading has gone 15 NM past the point of no return, and at best the sequence is ruined, most likely TEHRAN ACC is calling on the coord line to chew me out for penetrating their airspace with an uncoordinated aircraft as the a/c is now 5 NM north of the FIR boundary, and at worst the aircraft on the heading is about to be in conflict with the Sharjah aircraft you had north of track also on a heading.
Even with the 30 second life story from UAE9961, you still don't have what you need, that being the level passing at this time to verify mode Charlie, and you still haven't got the a/c to squawk ident.
This is all hypothetical of course because as we all know, hell will freeze over before the UAE Cargo Cowboys will remember to call ten minutes before ORSAR for comms, and will instead make a similair call to above five miles past ORSAR, and about to clean up TUGOS traffic at the same level.
Bottom line is bad R/T isn't an unimportant issue, and anyone who treats it in a flippant way, is definately part of the problem. Become part of the solution and next time you are sitting beside someone who doesn't report level passing and level cleared to on first contact, tell them they should. Next time you are with someone who at midnight on a Wednesday evening, asks the reason for the delay, when they are being vectored and slowed down, tell them to look at the TCAS and see the airshow around them, and tell them to shut up and pull their head in.
ATC in the Gulf is understaffed and overworked at the moment. We work with old outdated equipment, and in many cases strange, inefficient procedures, so we need all the help we can get. Three years ago we had about 800 movements a day, and now we work over 1,200 movements a day with the same amount of staff, and with increased spacing required from Dubai APP due to the works in OMDB, which is only going to get worse shortly with even more spacing needed. We all do our best, and while from some of your points of view, our best isn't good enough, it's all we can offer. Cheers.:ok:

[Gulf News]

ANSA Whist I see your point about calls prior to ORSAR omitted or in an incorrect format this is largely a result of unfamiliarity with local procedures. The only indication that we pilots have of the requirement to call UAE 10 minutes prior to ORSAR is a small ill defined box of text on the Jeppesen area chart which is hidden amongst a volume of other information. EK mainline pilots generally know about it through training and familiarity, you know about it because it is your patch but what about the other 100+ carriers who use the airspace. These guys manage to operate quite adequately into LHR, JFK, SYD etc. It is most definitely a limitation of the of the navigation publication but is also quite abnormal for someone who regularly operates in 1st world airspace. I can only imagine the London area controller’s reaction to some guy popping up on frequency just to say he is on his way and will be there in 10 minutes whilst still with Maastricht.
Every airport and every FIR has its own local procedures but one cannot expect all crew to know all of them unless condensed into some form of route briefing or NOTAM. The limitations of the published navigation aids such as Jeppesen in this case are quite apparent. Ask someone who is unfamiliar with the airspace to show you where the published holds at DESDI and BUBIN are depicted. You are looking at a 10 minute exercise if indeed they are found at all which is why you probably get so many queries when you instruct aircraft to hold there.
Whilst I am sure that the majority of pilots do there best to conform you may well have to cut them a bit of slack if they are not regulars.
On the broad topic of quality of RT there can be no excuse. Tired, bored, demotivated, whatever we are all professionals who hold a qualification to that effect and owe it to safety and our profession to maintain the highest standards at all times no matter how poorly we feel we are being treated.
Does anyone know if there a publication readily available of correct terminology and required read backs etc?

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Thanks PITA great to see that the intellectuals have joined the debate. Must have taken hours to come up with that witty post. Thank goodness with perfectionists like you at the pointy end of the a/c I dont have to worry about wrong calls, chasing up flight levels or position reports or anything........ :ok:
Thanks to all who made constructive posts.
It's not the unique to UAE stuff like ORSAR check in that is the problem. Its the standard stuff that you have to do wether you are in UAE, USA, UK Europe or anywhere. Like reporting level on first contact with a new freq. Actually reading back a clearance instead of "roger" and then spearing off in the other direction. Copying a freq change instead of just switching so ATC dont have to spend mins finding out where you are or if we have to start radio failure procedures. Even just listening out on the control frequency and responding when called instead of talking to the ground freq to find out what bay you are in. Remember that the control freq is the one you are being seperated on.
thanks;)

[PITA]

Truth hurts does it not Ali
You stuffed shirt

[Panama Jack]

Apparently CC comes from the Mexicans who say, "Si, Si..." when they mean "Yes".

I don't believe it. Flew in Mexico and Latin America and never heard the phrasology "Charlie Charlie" until my arrival in the Middle East.

If it were so, surely other Mexican phrasology would have entered the picture:

"C" is "Coca"
"N" is "Nectar"
"X" is "EXtra"

Ironically, Mexican Government aircraft are all registered "XC"-- "Extra Coca." :confused:

[Panama Jack]

Does anyone know if there a publication readily available of correct terminology and required read backs etc?


ICAO Doc 9432-AN/925 "Manual of Radiotelephony", published by the International Civil Aviation Organization. No reference made to "Charlie Charlie" in said manual.

[ratpoison]

PITA, will you get me another black tea no sugar and some of those digestive biscuits. Oh, and shut the door on your way out.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Gulf News, the main thrust of my comment wasn't the not calling 10 minutes before ORSAR, cos that is something we are used to, as we are also used to all the aircraft calling on every other frequency other than 120.7. What I was getting at with the example I gave of the UAE Cargo flight was that instead of saying "UAE Centre, UAE 9961, FL370", and then we tell them to squawk ident at the same time as giving them their clearance, and the whole process takes 15 seconds, instead they say all the stuff I said they say, and we take up to a minute to get through all that we have to get through. Not knowing local procedures is forgivable, and in fact I am sure that the documentation needs to be looked at, but not reporting FL on first contact, and not reporting level passing when on climb or descent, is not forgiveable. You find the good pilots will switch on and listen out harder when they hear you are busy, and it can make a busy complex sequence run smoothly. Maybe we should make more of an effort to actually thank the good guys for doing the right thing rather than just getting on here to moan about the lazy ones.

[Gulf News]

ANSA I see your point entirely. There is nothing worse than a guy giving their whole life story bar mother’s maiden name on first contact. However the pilots need to know what you want. Most people who work through this airspace regularly, understand the reason for contacting UAE 10 minutes prior to the boundary but it would help the non regulars and yourselves if there was perhaps a NOTAM or something to the effect: CONTACT UAE CENTER 120.7 10 MINS BEFORE ORSAR STATING CALLSIGN AND FLIGHT LEVEL. I think you will find something like this will have a positive effect.

P. Jack thanks for the ICAO reference. With the number of different nationalities, backgrounds and experience levels we have joining our pilot workforce lately as an instructor I increasingly find myself having to go right back to basics with things which we took for granted in the past, such as RT. Until recently there has been no need to spell things out hence company documentation has no guidance on the subject. I have found that if you can point someone to a written word and official publication their receptiveness is a lot better rather than asking them to take your word on something. I shall be hunting down the manual and suggesting its use as a reference to the training department as a whole.

It is good to see this forum stimulating some useful dialogue rather than the usual bitching and slagging. We can all gain something from this sort of stuff. I am wholeheartedly in favor of ATC liaison jump seat rides and understand that we are almost back to having them approved once more. I only hope ATC can spare the staff to take advantage of the offer.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

ATC Famil flights would be very welcome on the part of ATC, and would be extremely useful. I would love to have a trip up front of an A340 or A330 particularly to discuss and see first hand the specific issues with early descent and speeds that we seem to have here in the Middle East. I can't speak for all ATC'ers but since I know we are not going to be fully staffed in the foreseeable future and as such will not be released for this kind of activity, I would be willing to go on one of my days off. I don't think we should have to do this, but as I said there is no way at the moment that our employers could justify paying overtime to release us for a famil flight.

I hope this forum can stay positive and we can keep it out of the gutter and stay above the name calling that PITA tried to drag it down to. If he comes back and starts again doing that, I hope the moderator does what he should do and bins the rubbish.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

BTW Gulf News, I haven't seen the specific reference to the call 10 mins prior to ORSAR in Jepp, but I am guessing it's not too clear, especially on what frequency to call, as other than the regulars, the guys that do make the call invariably call on one of the other ATC frequencys. I'm interested to know what it says.

[03Rnow30R]

Great news about the jumpseat rides if it does come off. I know of a couple of guys that will even come along on a day off to see what it's about. It will go a long way to understanding what it is like from your side.
I have done a couple of jumpseat rides before and it has helped me quite a bit. I do however feel that just having the ATC's along for a ride, isn't the solution. The same goes for the pilots; you've got to come and sit in with us and perhaps, if you see the "fantastic" toys we have to play with and have the procedures we have to deal with explained to you, we may have a bit of mutual understanding going. I am not talking about a center visit. That is about as good as an ATC looking around an empty cockpit and leaving. You have to come and plug in with us and listen out for an hour or two. We gaurantee a few laughs along the way. Can't take things too seriously what? Perhaps even a radar sim run for the avid tcas controller pilots?
Lets see what comes of it....:}