Air Japan/ANA & expat pilots (Merged).

[Shagtastic]

I see some posts that would seem to suggest that ANA and in particular Air Japan have their issues when it comes to dealing with non-Japanese pilots on contracts.

One point would be Japanese Captains not giving any handling sectors to foreign co-pilots for some strange reason.. do they do this for official reasons or do they consider the GAIJIN to be useless? Others might be decissions taken away from the Captain by groundcrew/handlers etc.

Obviously there are a host of cultural issues involved with problems on each side but is this isolated or do other airlines in Japan have the same problems.

Shags

[Kaptin M]

No other airlines in Japan employ F/O's who fly only with Japanese Captains. The JALways F/O's fly with predominantly gaijin skippers, and the other airlines - such as Sky Net Asia, Sky Mark, And Air Do, fly Captain with Captain (Japanese Cap:Foreign Cap as F/O, or Foreign Cap:Japanese Cap as F/O), or Captain (Japanese or Foreign) with local F/O.
We had done the same thing in JAL Express for a couple of years (when the were "getting used" to us), and presently the Japanese Captains on the MD are flying Captain with Captain, because ALL of the F/O's were upgraded and their replacements are still in the sausage factory.

I doubt that the Air Japan foreign F/O's are getting NO handling, unless they are flying outbound with one Captain, and return with a different one.
As someone who has been here for just coming up to 7 years, I would have to say that I did notice it took some time for us to be (partly) accepted. Undoubtedly, the cultural and language barriers were (and occasionally still are) played a not inconsiderable part in this.
However, Japan has been the sole territory of the Japanese pilot, and seeing us (gaijin) here, taking up some of that territory, and doing more work on lesser conditions, has not given them any reason to embrace us.
Upon reflection, I would say that to a certain extent, we were used as a "tool" by the companies to try to alter the incumbent pilots' conditions. And THAT is the reason for the offshoots of the mainlines, which is possibly the reason the mainline pilots who are seconded to the "Air Japans", have little time for the contract foreign pilots, and the new recruit Japanese.
They see THEM as a threat to THEIR conditions.

[Shagtastic]

So back to my original post - would like to hear from pilots flying in Japan and their thoughts on the topic.

Shags

[Farknel]

Shag,

I think Kap M has provided some very reasonable and considered comments.

I found them useful and in keeping with what I have already read on PPrune forums and from talking to Japanese friends who work as pilots within the ANA System. They (local Japaneses Pilots) ARE worried about the possibility that their conditions of employment may be eroded by the employment of foreign pilots on lesser conditions - Who would not be?

It does make it a complex issue.

Fark.

[glekichi]

Kind of a tangent here, but.....
Do many ex-contract workers end up getting permanent positions with the carriers?

[Kaptin M]

The short answer to your question, glekichi, is "No".
The airlines (to date) have not direct hired any non-Japanese passport holders to the best of my knowledge.
There are quite a lot of contract pilots who have been with JALWays for donkey's years, but none of those live in Japan.

One of the regular PPRuNers has been doing some serious work to try to achieve direct entry, and certainly has the determination and ability to be successful.
The way things are headed, with the pilot shortage soon to impact severely here (and elsewhere) over the next few years, it just may happen that the Japanese airlines might decide to direct hire. However, things happen very, very slowly in this country, and I really do NOT believe that either side would find it easy dealing directly with the other.
We westerners are used to a straight on, face to face dealing with our superiors, which is precisely 180 degrees removed from the way the Japanese do things.
If not done their way, misunderstandings are more likely to occur, resulting in an "awkward" situation for both parties.

I feel that IF the Japanese were to direct hire, it would not be into any of the current airlines, but more likely (would be) a separate entity structured more to having mainly non-Japanese pilots making up the bulk of the pilot workforce. I feel the Japanese would be more comfortable with that sort of a set-up, and is my OPINION only.
SkyNet Asia comes to mind, as an example.

[JapJok]

Don't worry too much about the gaijin pilots not being as skilled as their Jap colleagues. I've never seen a Jap pilot with anything but the most basic of skills, and even those not too polished. They hate disengaging the auto pilot, and they'd use it for take off if they could.

Kaptin M, you said

"and seeing us (gaijin) here, taking up some of that territory, and doing more work on lesser conditions, has not given them any reason to embrace us."

Are you telling me that you are working in Japan for less than local pilots?? Your conditions are less??

Isn't that what you've poured $hit on others on these forums for years?




Farknel, I'm sure the local pilots are worried that their conditions will be eroded by these blow ins, who are the equivalent of strike breakers (without the strike of course).

[glekichi]

I know what you are getting at Kaptin.. makes sense.
Such a large number of people trouble have adjusting to life in Japan.
It is one area I think Japan does have right... If you want to live there youve gotta do things their way. Good on em. When in Rome, I say!!
Not going to help them if they simply need to find pilots fast though.
Dont know why but I found it really easy. Lived there 6 years and although the first few years were a struggle, I found that after mastering the language (It got to the point where nobody would pick that I wasnt Japanese over the phone. Took 5 minutes to convince the police on a 110 call that the name I was saying was my name, not the company name. ) and communicating on their level, they werent negative towards me whatsoever, in any situation. I GUESS the same would work in aviation.
Separate airline? Great... NOVA in the sky - socialize only with other westerners (besides their boy/girlfriend), never see the real Japan, and generally make all westerners look like complete morons..
At least throwing them in the deep end with the Japanese at the main airlines gives people a chance at some day learning a bit about the culture.
Back to the original topic.. Could always take that JCAB license (If I ever get one) somewhere smaller... would be interesting to know what GA pays like in Japan..

[Kaptin M]

I've never seen a Jap pilot with anything but the most basic of skills, and even those not too polished. They hate disengaging the auto pilot, and they'd use it for take off if they could.In fact, I have noticed quite the opposite, JapJok - to the point that it p!sses me off!
The F/O's disengage the A/P and the A/T quite early on just about EVERY approach (although they do leave the F/D on), and do quite a nice job of hand flying the intercept and subsequent final approach.
With 17k something hours, I resist the temptation, and usually leave the whole shebang engaged until the last possible moment!

Are you telling me that you are working in Japan for less than local pilots?? Your conditions are less?? Yes, it's true, some of our conditions ARE less :{
OTOH, some are better ;)
We're trying hard to meet somewhere in the middle - it's a great way to play the management off against themselves! :ok:
(Always cry poor :D )
You seem like a fish out of water, JapJok - and from the sentiments expressed, you probably are, regardless of which country you live in! :ugh: (And you can be such a catty bitch when the mood swing takes you :oh: )

You make a valid point, glekichi, It got to the point where nobody would pick that I wasnt Japanese over the phone. For some of the Japanese, HEARING & SEEING a gaijin speaking their language seems to tumble their gyros - they find it hard to comprehend that a non-Japanese can converse with them in their own language.
Several times I have had the experience of saying something in Nihongo to one of them, only to met with a blank look - however if a Japanese says the SAME thing to them, it isn't a problem.
Some of them just don't expect a gaijin to be able to speak Japanese (although I have to confess my ability is fairly limited).

would be interesting to know what GA pays like in Japan..G.A. jobs are probably harder to come by than airline jobs. I know of one of our F/O's here who applied for a G.A. job, but missed out (he wanted the assurance of being home EVERY night).
Very few of our F/O's have had G.A. experience prior to staring work with JAL - G.A. jobs are well paid, and few and far between.

[JapJok]

I suppose Kaptin, that the standard of Jap crews depends on where your own standard is.

From where I stand, their standard is very poor, Captains included.

Perhaps you stand in a different position in the line.

Shags, the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's. They have an attitude that there is noone so good as a Japcap/ God help us.

[Shagtastic]

Japjok,

Is this across the board or specific to particular companies?

Do they do this out of selfishness, lack of respect for the F/O or have they got no balls and can't delegate making them overall a poor Captain?

Perhaps it's a practice passed on through the years and not challenged by the F/O's who won't make waves?

Shags

[Kaptin M]

the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's.
That might be the case for Air Japan on the long(er) haul flights - I found a similar thing during my days with SQ, esp. when there were 2 Captains.
But it isn't so with JAL Express.
The sectors are shared equally between Captain & F/O, unless there are certain operational conditions (x-wind >15kts, visibilty <800m, contaminated runway, wet non-grooved r/w, and a couple of others), that preclude the F/O from flying take-offs/landings.

I guess with your standard, JJ, we can expect to see you appointed Chief Pilot any day soon. :}
(...if anyone else besides yourself recognises it! :p )

[Dogslay]

Having flown for the Japanese since 1992 I can only say that JapJok talks utter cr*p!!!!

[Stereolab]

I suppose Kaptin, that the standard of Jap crews depends on where your own standard is.
From where I stand, their standard is very poor, Captains included.
Perhaps you stand in a different position in the line.
Shags, the Japcaps don't give many sectors to their own FO's. They have an attitude that there is noone so good as a Japcap/ God help us.

Hey Japjok....

Still talkin' tough when the door is closed or at the gaijin bar...nice. When your trip starts though, you'll bow to the JCAB checkairman when he meet you at the gate and be a company "yes" man....nice facade. Be a man and say those words in public....yeah I thought so....you'll probably sign-up for another contract term and keep whinning about Japan.

Keep up the good work!!!

[Team Player]

It is an unfortunate fact of contract flying that a percentage of "senior" (whatever that means from one company to another) first officers are NEVER going to see a command during their career, and end up bitter and disillusioned.
JapJok appears to me, to be one of those.
Rather than moving on to another employer, to start at the bottom of the pile again, he would rather stay where he is now, but complain loudly to one and all of his "superior skills and experience" which are overlooked in favor of the "lesser experienced" local pilots.

If eventually forced to offer the JapJoks of this world an upgrade, it will be on lesser terms than their predecessors, but nonetheless begrudingly accepted as the 30 pieces of silver are traded off for 1 exta gold bar on the coat sleeve.
And he wonders WHY the Japanese consider him a lesser person.

[Leviathan]

Parc are advertising for contracts commencing Aug '06

Have been through all the stuff on Air Japan etc.

From anyone in the company; I am curious to know from which cities the commuters commute from? Pacific Rim? Oz? US? etc.



If the source of the commute was not an issue, which is the easiest/ most preferable location to commute from?



Thanks

Leviathan

[Absolutely]

I have been an FO in Air Japan for a few years now. I thought I'd clear some things up.

Shags: The only local pilots we fly with are senior management pilots, as they are not in the ANA pilots union. There are about 10 of them. They are very friendly, have no angst against us and realise the company needs foreign pilots as they can't train their cadets fast enough. Almost without exception they share flying sector for sector, I could count on one hand when this hasn't happened.

I will add though that during line training it is a JCAB requirement, at least at ANA, that FO's do not fly the aircraft. It's one of many unexplainable Japanese things with no answer, so we try not to think about it and definately don't ask "why?". Maybe this is where the rumour comes from.

5 FO's were upgraded to Capt last year and at least 6 more this year. 2 guys just finished their upgrade sims.

Kaptin M: FO's at Air Japan do NOT only fly with local Captains. Only about 15% or 20% of our flying is with Japanese Capts. ie. that is the percentage of local capts in AJX.

Leviathan: Almost all guys commute from Australia and NZ.

Cheers.

[CFIT]

What is the current time to Command? Is there any Japanese pilot union politics here that would make life difficult when it comes to upgrade? Heard rumors that if a person broke a contract with a Japanese carrier prior, he/she will be black listed, and will no longer be able to get a job with any Japanese carriers. Is this a fact, or does it depends if you broke the contract in good term? Thanks for the info guys.

[Dry Thunder]

Hey Guys,
Would like to gen up a little for a possible interview.
Does any one know of any good internet web pages which would have some Boeing 767 Gen?
What sort of questions are they likely to ask in the AJX interview?

[Absolutely]

CFIT: So far has been 3.5 to 4 years to command. But if they only upgrade 6/year, as they seem to be doing then some guys will wait well over 5 years.

Rumors are that the ANA Union has a say in everything AJX does. It is never "in your face" stuff and we never have any dealings with the ANA line pilots.

It's only my opinion, but if you broke the contract and burnt your bridges at the same time, by telling them what you really thought, then I doubt you would work in Japan again. We had a guy who left on good terms though (personal reasons) and was told if he ever wanted his job back to just call.

I should add that AJX is far from a happy place, morale is rock bottom. Many guys will not be renewing contracts.

[Shagtastic]

Absolutely,


Morale is rock bottom at a lot of airlines these days but could you outline the issues at AJX which are turning pilots towards greener pastures?

Shags

[Maris Otter]

Absolutely, Could you give a general picture of t&c, rostering etc?
Would salary and allowances be sufficent to live in Japan with children in private schools/good medical package for a family etc ?

Maris

[Absolutely]

Yeh SHAGS, you're right, morale is bad most places nowdays!

It's usual management stuff. Screwing around with the contract, trying to save 10 Yen. Amongst other things "B Scales" were introduced about a year ago for Upgraded FO's and New FO's, although they just announced a bit of an increase for them as they can't get anyone to join. Still not up to the original Capt and FO salaries.

Commuting allowance still does not cover a full fare economy ticket from anywhere.

Contract is 10 days off/month. Very rare to get one day more than that as they constantly point out that the contract says 10 days. So we used to sit around in Japan on extra days off doing nothing! Although they are so short of pilots now it's very rare to be sitting around. Nippon Cargo management, on the other hand, have always had the attitude if you are not required to fly then stay at home and they generally get about 15 days off/month. However I think they are busier now too.

If you want to work in Japan then NCA is the hands down winner.

OTTER: training will take between 6 and 8 months. Rostering is very poor, still done by hand, not enough pilots, majority is all night, very fatiguing, no fair spread of overtime and heaps of Dead Heading around Japan. Some schedules have you doing 2 bus trips (one of which is 1.5 hours), a dead head then another 1.5 hour bus trip, then an all night flight to HNL. It's madness! Unfortunately it's legal in this place.

You can not live here with your family and work for AJX. No visas are arranged, except for training. You enter and exit Japan on a shore pass as per any foreign crew.

Hope this has helped.

[Shagtastic]

Absolutely,

So NCA has a Japanese base then? Looking at the HACS website it states SanFran, Amsterdam & JFK I think?

Shags

[Maris Otter]

Thanks Absolutely,
Your responce is highly appreciated.
Maris

[Leviathan]

Absolute

Appreciate the info. Thanks

Leviathan

[COP]

Can anyone out there give me the basics of the Air Japan contract. I have sent an email to which I as yet have no reply from IAC. What is the monthly pay and tax. Is accomodation provided and what is it like. For the commuting contract, what allowance or system is in place to get back to Aus. When all things considered what is the job really like? Also is the pay in US Dollars and what is it?
Thanks for any help on this matter

[ishi59]

Thunder
Check your pm's

[ishi59]

COP
Try PARC aviation or HACS for the Air Japan contract, I don't beleive IAC are involved, at least hope not!!!

[COP]

ishi59, some of the available contracts are through IAC as they had an ad in the Australian on Friday, a decent size ad too. Still regardless of that does anyone have the contract details handy??
Cheers

[Break Right]

Standard working month is 70 flight hours per month (20/21 days per month).
Yr 1 US$6,462 per month
Yr 2 US$7,538 per month
Yr 3 US$7,824 per month
Yr 4 US$7,991 per month
Yr 5 US$8,115 per month
Completion bonus of US$300 per month is retained from the above and paid after completion of 5 years of service.
Per Diem: During operations period US$884 per month.
Not really that impressive!!:sad:

[haughtney1]

OK here is a quick question regarding the whole situation in Japan..

Me...757/767 F/O rated and Exp, currently in Europe but wifey wants to be back in NZ for the little en's

What are the barriers to employment in Japan?

I hear the medical requirements are draconian, you have to complete the ATPL again..etc.etc..done a bit of a search but nothing really seems to follow what Ive seen or been told. Anyone able to fill in the blanks?

Oh yeah, I was looking at the ANA contract via Hawaiian aviation


cheers:ok:

[haughtney1]

Yep got a JAA ATPL, and an NZ ATPL, so ok, but my question relates to what is involved..like you say if its a law exam and a sim check cool:ok:
As for the "comprehensive" medical..what does that entail?..(I wear contact lenses etc..get stressed everytime I see a white coat..etc etc) and do you have to be in Japan to do the medical, as Ive been told its more of a spanish inquisition rather than a check of your well being:ugh:

[2XL]

Has anyone seen $ figures for the 737NG package with ANA ?

[6feetunder]

h1, if you hold a CAT 1 medical now there is probably no reason you wouldn't pass the JCAB medical. They do however take a closer look at cholesterol and BMI which might keep you from getting the job.

The only way to find out is to apply for the job, go to the interview and take the medical. I'm not sure but even if you hold a JCAB medical you may still be required to take a pre-employment medical as well. It is the same medical as a flight crew medical but you won't be issued one until you do another one on completion of training.

As I said contact one of the agencies and give it a try.

[haughtney1]

Thanks 6ft.....for the info mate:ok:

[Boofy181]

Hi,

I am currently looking at the ANA contract through PARC.

Can anyone help with respect to taxes in Japan. What is a ball park tax figure for say earning 100k USD/12.0m Yen/yr and do they tax the Per diems/personnel allowance.

Thanks for any help.

Boofy

[Obbie]

You don't live in Japan on the Air Japan contract, so you don't pay Japanese taxes.

You pay the taxes of the country you are commuting from.

The contract agency simply pays you. You must declare to your home government what you made.

There is an ex-NCA driver from the US in jail right now because he "forgot" to make that declaration.:hmm:

[Absolutely]

SHAGS: Sorry, my earlier reply was misleading, NCA does not base foreigners in Japan. I just meant NCA is the best of all the Japanese contracts.

Haughtney1: About 50% of all applicants fail the JCAB Medical, doesn't matter what sort of medical you currently hold. The Japanese ATPL does not mean doing subjects, it is your final sim check which is called the ATPL check. It will involve Air Law and a Radio exam plus at least 20 sims, even if you are type rated. Usual time to get through is 5 to 8 months. It's not difficult just mind numbingly boring and repetitive!

[Absolutely]

ISHI59: Sorry to dissapoint you Ishi but IAC has just got the AJX contract as well as PARC and HACS. This is the AJX solution to getting someone to turn up to an interview. Because of "B Scales" and morale they can't get anyone at the moment.