Logbook and Logging Hours Questions

[Big Red ' L ']

I have a few hours in my logbook now and am taking lesson as and when i can. I have a mate at work who is a ppl holder and has twins and everything on it. He can hire a small plane for about £60 an hour and has offered to take me up a few times. Now the question....Can i put these hours in my logbook as flying hours...????? Any help or advice will be appreciated, thanks....

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Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....

[flying doc]

Hi,

I'm afraid you can only log these hours as a passenger because you wouldn't be 'Under training' as P U/T stands for. You'd need a CPL instructor for that! But hey, those hours would still be fun!

Happy Flying!

FD

[helimutt]

Only need an instructor of some sort, not necessarily a CPL instructor! There are some PPL instructors out there. (Me)

[flying doc]

helimutt,

I stand corrected Sir, my apologies. I thought that the new JAR rules meant that you had to be at least CPL to be an FI.. but I accept your post. So am I right in thinking that you can still instruct with PPL but you need FI rating also?

Thank you,

FD

[foghorn]

I thought that you had to be a CPL to be a FI under the JARs as well...

Helimutt, have you got Grandfather rights from an old CAA PPL/FI or something, or am I wrong about the JARs?

[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 02 February 2001).]

[Professional Cynic]

Under the new JAR regs you can still be a FI without a CPL. However you cannot be paid to instruct, you also have to pass the CPL theory exams and an approved FI course! This would obviously cost a considerable amount of cash, I'm sure that instructing is rewarding in terms other than cash, but I think that most people going this far would complete a CPL and hopefully be a least be paid some form of wage for their hard efforts(I hope so I'm studying for an CPL/FI(R)my self).

Hope this throws some light on the subject, I believe this information is correct as of today but who knows by tommorow?

[PorcoRosso]

I wish I could log all my passenger hours ...I'd be chief pilot at NASA today !

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Flying is not dangerous, crashing is

[Noggin]

More likely Chief Passenger!!!

[space1]

I finished my PPL in May 2000 and due to travelling did not do any flying for approximately a year. I am about to start my CPL and have regained currency. Is it likely that this gap of one year in my logbook will disadvantage me in the future, say when applying for jobs?
Many Thanks, Space.

[El Desperado]

No employer could care less about your PPL flying, or that gap in currency.

What they will study is how current you have kept yourself after getting the CPL/IR (be it instructing/hour building/sim rides/whatever) if you don't land a job immediately.

Two years with no instrument flying isn't going to put you in a good position for a sim check anyway, so make sure you have a plan.

All the best.

[regional guy]

Hi!

I was sitting around discussing what a pilot would have to do if he lost his logbook, and I thought I'd check and see what you all think about this.
Imagine a pilot that keeps 1 written logbook where he, obviously, logs every single flight. Our pilot also keeps an electronic version, but he only keeps track of total time, PIC time, SE time, ME time etc. No individual flights. If he lost his written logbook, could he legally buy a new 'paper' logbook, and just transfer the hours from the electronic one, and start over?

I hope that question made sense!??!

:D

[Avenger]

Regional Guy,

If a trainee pilot, i.e pre license issue lost their logbook, then it should be a simple matter of copying the training records into a new book and getting this signed off by the appropriate training school.

Should a license holder lost their logbook, then the flights post license issue could be accounted in the new log book but would need to be accompanied by an afidavit drawn up by a solicitor and signed by the license holder. The CAA will then look at this record and make a judgement as to what they will allow to be credited, bearing in mind they would have seen the original logbook at license issue and have a trend established.

If a commercial pilot loses his/her logbook, then a similar afidavit would be drawn up, but the records are more auditable since all AOC holders have to keep copies of flight duty hours on a monthly basis and some checks would be made.

Should any Pilot just turn up with a new logbook stating a number of unsubstanciated hours, then this would be considered with extreme caution and proberbly not accepted as a true record.

Most sensible Pilots photocopy their logbook on a regular basis just to cover these situations.

[regional guy]

Avenger,

First let me say thanks for your reply. :)
I should have stated this earlier, but I was specifically looking for the FAA's view on this. The question came up as a result of me and some fellow instructors sitting around talking about logging flight time. If an instructor loses his logbook, and there is no way to accurately track his previous flight-time, except the electronic log, what can he do?
will a sign statement from this instructor suffice as a legal record showing hours?

[PilotsPal]

Always keep a photocopy of each page as it's completed. And keep the photocopies separately from the log book itself. The chances are you will never need them but it will save a great deal of angst if the worst does happen.

[regional guy]

hi!

Thanks to everyone that took the time to reply. :)
BUT, you guys were missing the point here, it was a hypothetical question where our pilot did not have ANY means other than the electronic log of reconstructing his hours... no photocopies, no two seperate logbooks, no complete flight for flight electronic log.

:)

[touch&go]

Keep mine in a Chubb safe at home, bit over the top, but would hate to try and construct my log books again.

[expedite_climb]

I would do just what the CAA tell me to ..... just guess how many hours i had (I already have an ATPL).

See their website FAQ.

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/faq.asp?faqid=119

[batty]

Does anyone know of a GOOD computerized logbook, designed for the JAR regulations, and able to cope with airline flying.

I want it to be able to work out 28 day summaries , yearly summaries and be able to easily enter often repeated data ie aircraft and destinations and pilots etc.

I can find loads of FAA ones no JAA and would prefer a recomendation from a user.

Ta All

[Mister Geezer]

I saw a good software program for the Palm handheld and it can plug into your PC and print out any page(s) or details that would be required - It looks like it is JAA compliant. Do a search since there are some posts on this topic in the past.

I am fed up with my logbook so I can see myself venturing into the computer age before the not too distant future!

Cheers

[batty]

I have seen the one for the palms, but I want a propper one for the PC. But thanks anyway..

[benhurr]

SkyLog Pro is the one I use - accepted by CAA/JAA/FAA

website: www.skylog.co.uk

[higney85]

Well i can fly either night or day and have my private and am working on instrument- i have 65 or so hours total with about 5 at night. I enjoy night flying better but what will look better in the future when i try and get an airline job?

[redsnail]

It doesn't matter to the employer. However, night hours are usually the thing you need to "unfreeze" your ATPL. (well, that's what I was short of years ago)

[Tinstaafl]

Yeah. My ATPL took a couple of years longer to get because of the night hour requirement.

[B2N2]

Interesting.....
I've always tried to make every hour count double if not triple.
Meaning try to make every hour crosscountry if not xc night.
Or xc under simulated instrument conditions with a safety pilot.
Try and fill as many columns in your logbook with every single flight. Can be a pain sometimes but eventually it will pay off.
Future employers will not only look at your total time but also how you got it.
Oversimplistic but 1000hrs in the pattern are not the same as 1000 hrs xc. Banner towing over the same beach for 3 months will not give you the same experience level as flying over different terrain. In my experience they will always ask how you got the hours and what did you like doing most/least. Maybe consider timebuilding with a buddy abroad somewhere. Vary the airplane types that you fly. Not that an airline will care about a C172 vs Robin but it shows interest and the ability to diversify. Anything that will let you stand out in the crowd.
Hope it helps.
;) ;) ;)

[abracadabra]

I agree, fill up as many columns as you can, but I'd say stay away from night until you've more experience. Flying SE at night is really fun, smooth, and you get great views sometimes, but not so fun when you have a problem.....Obviously, you want to maintain night currency and keep your hand in, but I'd keep the long cross-country flights in the 'day' column for a while.

abracadabra

[TopBunk]

I suspect that the answer to the question may well depend on the country that is issuing the licence!

From where I am now, SE at night = no way! SE at day = a bit iffy!

But then again I sit LHS in a transport aircraft for a large carrier!:D

[abracadabra]

Yeah, wait till you're on multi's before you really start racking up the night time. I did my original night stuff in a C152 over LA. Thing is, there are so many lights out there that it's almost daytime anyway, and if your engine quits you're landing on the freeway regardless of what time it is. When I moved to the UK it was a little disconcerting to see all the black areas of nothingness.

It's one thing to be frustrated by not having the requisite hours to unfreeze your ATPL, but I bet it's better than trying to trouble-shoot your lycoming at Vglide as you descend into a...field? or is it a forest?

should I turn on my landing light? or keep it off?

abracadabra

[FlyingForFun]

When I moved to the UK it was a little disconcerting to see all the black areas of nothingness.How strange. I did my night qualification in Arizona. There were so many black bits, it was very easy to identify each small area of lights. When I moved back to the UK, there were so many lights I couldn't tell which town was which!

Single-engine flying at night is more dangerous than single-engine flying during the day. It's also more dangerous than multi-engine flying at night. But I'd bet it's safer than lots of other things which people do. I know the risks, and, for me personally, I think they're acceptable - especially since I love flying at night. It's just a pity there are so few places in the UK where you can get any decent night hours logged.

FFF
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[Speedbird744]

The Jeppesen European Pilot Logbook seems to be the latest and most popular for Commercial pilots, but what I don't understand is , what if you hour build in the states or train there under FAA 141 as well as JAR licenses in the UK, does those hours count?
Or would the CAP 407 be more suitable under these circumstances?
Thanks

[fudgy2000]

hiya!!

Im after a professional logbook. Can anyone recommend one please? The ones Ive seen are Jeppesen, AFE and Poolies! Which one is the best in terms of layout etc!

thanks

[AIRWAY]

Please check the "Questions" forum, there is a question like yours with a few replies too.

http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120506


Ahh i've just noticed it was your post too in the questions forum

[peb]

How do you log when you have done one filght that start during the night and ends during the day? I mean if I call fill bouth boxes (day and night) the time that I have done at each condition. I think that I can but im not very sure.

thanks

[Martin1234]

Log the total time of the flight and then write how much of the flight that was night in a seperate column.

[FlyingForFun]

I would use one line, and split the total time between the two columns. But at the end of the day, it's your logbook, so you can fill it in however you like, as long as it's clear and accurate.

FFF
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[Tinstaafl]

Mine has day & night columns so I can log each of the two components on a single line for any given flight.

[Genghis the Engineer]

As with the two above, I use a single row and split the time between columns.

G

[muck-savage]

Hi,

Do you need a special jar logbook for cpl/ir training approved by the jaa ?

[JeroenC]

No, you don't need a "special" JAA logbook, you do need a "normal" JAA approved logbook though.

See LASORS "www.caa.co.uk" (use the search) for the specifications.

[BillieBob]

You do not have any particular design of logbook and there is no longer any such thing as a "JAA approved logbook". The various 'JAR-FCL logbooks available are copies of the design that used to be contained in JAR-FCL 1.080 and, being in Section 1, was mandatory. Now, however, this has been moved to IEM FCL 1.080 in Section 2, which is Interpretive and Explanatory Material and shows an example only of how a logbook might look.

The UK law relating to the maintainance of a personal flying logbook is spelt out in the ANO at Article 28 and says nothing about the design of such a logbook. Provided that you comply with this law, you do not have to do anything else. It is perfecly legal, for example, to maintain a personal flying log on a computer or PDA if you wish - you are not obliged to have a 'book' at all.

The way that you choose to comply with the law is entirely up to you - you may use whatever design of logbook suits you and the flying that you are doing.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Oh what fun, I remember well Bob Pooley complaining about the amount of time and cost he went to in producing his company's JAR-FCL logbook.

Sensible, but one can imagine Pooleys and a few other companies being somewhat peeved after the amount of effort put into complying with what seemed at the time an over-complex but set-in-stone piece of regulation.

G


(Happy user of one of Pooleys original commercial logbooks, and intending to remain so).

[caramel]

Hi all

I'm doing a MCC course on a type D simulator and wondered about logging the hours! Can you log them as flying hours? I'm a little under 200 and with this course would take me over that saving me needing to hour build further.

Anyone know the rules :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Genghis the Engineer]

If it's an approved sim, you can log them as sim hours (most professional logbooks have a separate section for this). For some qualifications and courses this has validity, for others it doesn't. But the keywords are...

- Separately
- Approved.

G²

[TopBunk]

caramel

The CAA never used to accept them towards the granting of any licence upgrade (ie CPL to ATPL) and I doubt if that has changed.

It always seemed a little strange to me due to the nature of the sim details, but it's their rulebook!

[caramel]

So my sim hours in a A320 go in the same column as my FNPT 2 sim hours as well :confused:

I was lead to believe that if the sim was endorsed as a type rating sim you could log the hours as flown?????

This whole thing has me so confused

[Delta Wun-Wun]

That`s about the top and bottom of it. You are doing an MCC not a type rating course so they are sim hours in the sim column.
Think you can count up to 100 sim hours for ATPL issue(but don`t quote me on it).:(

[BillieBob]

Hours spent in a Synthetic Training Device may be logged as such but may not be counted toward required flight time for the award of a licence.

What you enter into your logbook is entirely up to you, the CAA will not accept your MCC time as counting towards your CPL.

[despegue]

Flight details flown on a "zero flight time" simulator, or level D sim, count according JAA as Real flight hours when doing a type-rating on that type. They should be entered in your logbook as actual flight hours with the comment"level D Simulator" and the sim. identification number.
So the answer is yes, you certainly are allowed to, during type rating training, and at least the German Bundesambt expects you to do so.

[boeingbus2002]

BUT....I wouldnt use these hours in your total hours when applying for airline jobs!! For applications, they want actual flying hours. This has been debated at length before on here, ill try to find the link unless someone else can beat me to it.

Till then, enjoy the sim, great fun and a great course where there is no pressure in a test. The harder you work learning your bits, the more you will get from this experience!

[hifive11]

Here is a bit more info on the subject! Hope it helps.

www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=123640&referrerid=82228

Hi5

[caramel]

Thanks for your replys I spoke to a caa examiner and he said that you can log the hours as flying if you're doing a type rating course but not for an mcc course because your not qualified which makes sense now.

Oh well off to the states to get the rest of the hours

Just need to work out whether the extra money to fly the A320 sim is worth it over any other 6 axis sim but thats another post

[abracadabra]

According to JAR-FCL Subpart-G (ATPL Licencing):

JAR-FCL 1.280(a): (quote) An applicant for an ATPL shall have...at least 1500 hours flight time. Of the 1500 hours flight time, up to 100 hours of flight time may have been completed in FS and FNPT of which a maximum of 25 hours may have been completed in FNPT.

FS Definition: Full sized replica of a specific type/make/model etc., and has to have visuals and motion.

FNPT: Generic Flight and Navigation Procedures Trainer. FNPT II has visuals.

cheers

[scroggs]

I have never logged sim time, and I would look askance at anyone who had, other than in the appropriate 'simulator' section of their logbook - except where it is specifically approved by the CAA/JAA. In all cases of logging simulator time, the fact that it is a synthetic training device must be made clear in the log entry.

Scroggs

[Pilot Pete]

Totally agree with Scroggs and the others who recommend not logging this time as 'flying'. Scroggs has many thousands of hours and I've got a few thousands too, coupled to these some 'few hundred' are in 'full monty' sims (yeah, naked, that's right!) I never considered loggong them as flying time and once you can (ie type rating) there is no need too.

If you have 200hrs and are adding 50 odd on to your total time, which is in simulators, then I think you are doing yourself (potentially) more harm than good. Airlines want to know how many hours you have flown the aeroplane, not how many times you have been re-positioned on an eight mile final to 'just try that again'!!

I sympathize with those of you looking for your first break who have low hours, just remember though that every single commercial pilot currently in an airline job had 200hrs at one point................

Good luck.

PP

[caramel]

I don't want to give the impression that i'm looking at logging sim as actual hours. I've logged my fnpt 2 time in the sim section of my log book. it just come about in a disscussion that in full motion sims you could log hours as 'flying time' and as I was looking at a mcc course who had a 'level D' simulator I thought it just might have saved me more money if it could be done and it would have beefed up that cv a bit more!

No doubt when we get an airline job the hours on the sim won't be as much importance especially when we get to scroggs's stage.

[er82]

Not anywhere near to getting my ATPL yet, but heard the other day that logbooks need to have every sector signed by the Captain. This true? Or can my company stamp my logbook certifying that all entries are correct?

[Global Pilot]

Hi er82,

Not a direct answer to your question but here is a recent thread that might interest you. Some of the replies the refer to Captain's signatures.

GP.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134215

[baby hormones]

Hiya Guys,

just wondering if anyone could help. I am type rated on the B200 and fly in the right hand seat for a corporate operator. Only trouble is, is that its one of a few that is single crew in the U.K.
I have been logging the time as turbine dual, but I spoke to someone the other who said I can't.
I cannot see why as I am type rated. I have tried the CAA but no reply.

Many Thanks

Hormones

[redsnail]

Is the operation required to be done with 2 crew? The Kingair 200 is a single pilot aircraft as you know, but the operation may dictate 2 pilots. If so, then it's probably P2 or that P1 u/s thing.
I would get a ruling from the CAA.

[ecj]

The AOC [if issued] will specify whether two crew is required for public transport operations. The other issue is whether it will count towards the 500 hours multi-crew time required to unfreeze the JAR-ATPL.

A multi-pilot typed rated ac is required to be on your licence prior to ATPL issue.

[BillieBob]

Baby Hormones - I read your post as saying that you are flying in the right hand seat of a single-pilot aeroplane that is not required by JAR-OPS to be flown multi-pilot. In this case, none of the flying will count towards the requirements for the ATPL, or any other licence or rating come to that. Neither is the flying Dual, unless you are receiving instruction from a FI or CRI, all you are entitled to claim is SNY, which is no use to man nor beast.

Of course, you can put what you like in your logbook but the CAA are red-hot on checking this sort of thing when you apply for a licence or rating and it would be a shame to find yourself being prosecuted for falsification of a legal document.

[baby hormones]

Cheers Guys,

The CAA have told me to refer to Lasor, but does not seem to much good.
Billie Bob is that still apply if I am rated on the aircraft. If so i beta get myself to a twin crew op otherwise 10 grand wasted?

cheers

Hormones

[ecj]

In a nutshell - does your operations manuals require two crew when carrying passengers? Speak to your chief pilot for guidance.

If YES - the time counts both for P2 and multi-crew time [500 hours MP required for ATPL issue.]

If NO - unable to log time as P2.

Simple - black and white.


This "hybrid rule" applies to ac under 5.7MT, and affects types like the Otter operating on a JAR AOC.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Hi

I'am planning to convert my license this year (FAA to JAA) and just saw today that my logbook looks like a mess. After 1600 hours I have made a lot of corrections. I'am going to do the checkride in UK. Are they picky about logbooks there?

Also can somebody tell where I can find info regarding how I log my hours according to JAR-FCL.

Must I buy a new logbook and RE-LOG my hours according to JAR-FCL requirements???? (thats gonna be a lot of work)

[High Wing Drifter]

You're not alone! I have numerous corrections too. It seems, the issue of logbooks falls into three camps:

1) Those that make errors and correct them (a mess)

2) Those that make errors and leave them (tut tut ;))

3) Those that don't make mistakes (what's the secret?)

[FougaMagister]

For what it's worth, my approach is to have 2 logbooks: one as a "draft" logbook, where I do make mistakes when loging right after a flight, the other, the "official" logbook, where I copy what's in the "draft" logbook. OK, that's more expensive, but it cuts down on the mess, and gives me the luxury of having a spare in case I misplace or lose the "official" logbook...

Cheers

[AIRWAY]

Like FougaMagister i use two log books as well might take double of the time but it does the trick.

:ok:

[EGAC_Ramper]

Jeez such a simple yet extremely effective idea.....cheers guys!! No more tippex ...lol:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

Yeah I thought of that (honest guv), but all those sigs and stamps!!

[razzele]

damn i wish id thought of that sneaky two logbook thing... mine is a mess loads of scirbbles...my baby neice even decided to draw on the b ack pages over some carefully written endorsements!!

[Martin1234]

If you're doing the CPL and not ATP you only need to prove that you got 200 h (including some XC etc). So, worst case scenario shouldn't be that bad. After all, it's normally at your own descretion if you want to log your hours or not.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

ok, so I'am not the only one having crappy logbooks. I have a FAA ATPL and also a "golden" stamp from a public notary that my hours are "true". Hope that is evidence enough.
Its funny, when I really concenetrate I try to do my best handwritng in my logbook, it ends up like sh#$@t

I HATE LOGBOOKS.

[Pilot Pete]

Why not just design a form in Excel or Word which mirrors your log book page? Either make it A4 size (if you have a big knee board) or A5 (sideways, twice on an A4 sheet) to fit a smaller kneeboard. Then all you have to do is put the entries on this sheet each time you go flying (handy thing is it will be on your kneeboard!) and then at your convenience fill in your 'Master' logbook when you are not too tired and sitting at home in the comfort of your living room. Won't stop mistakes, but may help cut them down........

Alternatively, you could do as many professional pilots do and just scribble times on a bit of paper to copy in later on:ok:

If you are a member of BALPA (free for trainee members I think), you will receive a Balpa Diary each year. Included in this are several mini logbook pages and that's what I use to log my hours on a daily basis, to transfer to my professional logbook every month or two (an onerous task.........)

Other options are to log them electronically, plenty of packages available on the market for this, then you can let the computer do the brain ache stuff.

PP

ps edited to add; try using the same pen each time to fill in your logbook, looks much neater.

[Sprawler]

I hold a PPL but haven't flow in a few months so I will need to do a check out with an instructor. Does anyone know how this should be logged? Is it Pu/t, P.1 or P1/s? I've checked Lasors but can't find anything that specifically covers this.

Thanks,
Sprawler

[prizefigher]

hey check your pm

[IRRenewal]

Search the private flying or flying instructors/examiners forum.

This subject has been covered to death lately.

Summary: you cannot use P1/S, only P.u/t

Regards

Gerard

[High Wing Drifter]

I concur! P/U.T only. P1/S is only for skills tests.

[Sprawler]

Thanks lads. That's an interesting thread in the Private Flying forum. Unfortunately there doesn't really appear to be any consensus on the subject. Just P1/s can't be used.

[GusHoneybun]

Sprawler,

This is indeed a tricky point and does need to be addressed by the CAA. With an instructor onboard, it depends on how you read the regulations.

Argument #1.

The instructor is there to provide instruction to ensure that you can satisfy the club checkout requirements. Hence, you are Pu/t and the FI is P1.


Argument #2.

Legally you are capable of operating that aircraft with or without the instructor present. An instructional flight requires two pilots. One instructor and yourself as the other pilot. Hence you could argue that the instructor is commander and you are captain of this flight. Assuming that the instructor does not have to interfer with the conduct of your flight, you could be said to be PICUS (note: slight difference to P1/s). You are exercising the priviledges of your licence under supervision of the commander.

Personally, unless you really need the P1 time, I would err on the side of caution and log it as Pu/t.

[BillieBob]

LASORS describes only two cases where PICUS may be claimed:

Case B - Co-pilot performing duties of PIC under supervision of pilot-in command

Case J - Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a JAA or CAA authorised examiner

Case B only applies if, among other things, "the flight was conducted in an aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness that requires its flight crews to include not less than two pilots" and LASORS further states that Flight time as PICUS, apart from as specifically provided for under Case J above, will only be allowable for the holder of a PPL subject to the terms of a prior agreement with the CAA." so I'm afraid that shoots down Gus Honeybun's Argument #2 (better stick to birthday bunny-hops, Gus)

Since a dual check to satisfy currency requirements, syndicate rules, insurance requirements , etc. is not a flight test and, in any case, the flight is not, we assume, with a CAA or JAA authorised examiner, Case J doesn't apply and Pu/t is the only option.

Of course, you can enter the flight in your logbook as anything you like - that's up to you. The CAA, however, will not accept it as counting towards any required PIC hours for licence or rating issue and so there's not much point.

[FlyingForFun]

Like Gus, I interpret the rules as indicating that there are two possibilities. But I don't agree with him about what those possibilities are!

The first choice, as Gus says, is that the instructor logs P1 and you log PUT.

The second option is that you log P1, and the instructor logs nothing at all. In this case, the instructor is nothing more, legally, than a passenger. If you choose this option, it must be agreed with your instructor in advance, because it has obvious implications on who has the final say if you and your instructor disagree on the correct course of actions (especially, say, in an emergency).

I do definitely agree with Gus' last line - err on the side of caution, and log it as PUT if in any doubt.

FFF
--------------

[JeroenC]

In some countries the insurance companies dictate that the owner of the aircraft has to appoint a person who does the checkout's. This does not have to be an instructor at all! It has happened to me!

I understand that I have to show some capabilities. Why should it be to an instructor? So I am captain.

What I do is I'll say in advance that I am logging PIC. Sometimes the instructor will tell me he'll log the hours too. I say them that it is illegal to do so, but that is up to them (they agreed that I was going to be PIC).

I do this because I need the hours. I can do this because I think it is a legal way to do. It is the CAA not laying out the rules.

Questions / comments welcome.

Regards,

Jeroen

[south coast]

I have been flying in South Africa on a SA licence for the last 4 years and the regulations here state that only actual IMC time can be logged as IFR, or when conducting an approach (simulated IFR).

Can someone please inform me of how one logs IFR time under JAR as I have just got this licence too.

Thanks

[PorcoRosso]

I am holding both JAA & FAA Tickets, and FAA states IFR time is IMC time.
French authorities claim IFR is flight under IFR Flight plans (whatever the WX is )
Therefore, I am differenciating the 2 things in my logbook : I have one column to log IMC time and another one to log IFR Flight Plan time.
If asked, I can specify .

[Maurice Chavez]

I use 10% of the total block time for that flight. In the end it looks more realistic in your logbook......

[Kilo-club SNA]

I must say I'm kind of sceptic reading or writing anything on this particular day, but here it goes..


JAA: Regulation asks for "IFR time"...that's time following Instrument Flight Rules. for most of your flights that means when you are on a clearance (soemplaces you can fly IFR in G airspace without clearance, but let's not get in to that).
So when you go flying IFR you receive a clearance at startup and you follow it to your destination hence ALL block time is IFR, regardless of weather.

FAA: Regulation specifies "Instrument time" meaning time you spend with the instrumet as you reference. So if you go on a 5 hour trip with takeoff under IMC, cruise in VMC (above clouds for example) followed by an approach in IMC you logg the departure and the arrival as instrumet time, the rest just as "normal" time.

Most countries have similar regulations. It all comes down to what they are asking for.

I logg IFR time and Instrument time separately, to keep up with both sides....

[ikea]

Hey, as im hopeing to start training in the summer, Id just like to know when exactly can I start logging hours as PIC? IS this after my first solo flight? Or can the hours that I accumulate when not PIC go towards my license requirements (i.e. the minimum hours to aquire a CPL?) Cheers
Alex:ugh:

[GusHoneybun]

PIC is where you are the pilot in command. Any training flights with an instructor on board will be logged as Pu/t (pilot under training). Any training flights where you are the sole occupant of the flight are logged as P1 or PIC. Obvious as you are the only person there, ergo, you are pilot in command. Hence, your first flight as PIC will be your first solo. Every subsequent solo flight will be logged as PIC. Don't worry too much about this as the moment as your instructor will explain how to correctly log each flight.
Good luck

[Icarusthesecond]

Just to add a little to the comprehensive reply above and hopefully clear up any confusion.

You don't have to be the sole occupant to claim PIC. You can go flying with passengers (once qualified) or even go up with another qualified pilot. So long as you sign for the aeroplane you claim PIC.

Sorry if that is a glimpse of the blindingly obvious

[Whirlygig]

All flying hours whether P1, Pu/t or P1/s (Pilot in command under supervision - usually after you have your licence and doing your proficiency check) count towards your total hours needed to commence a CPL (if doing the modular route from PPL).

Cheers

Whirlygig

[ikea]

thanks for clearing that up guys :-)

[Re-Heat]

P1 u/s is I believe only used for skill tests - NOT after qualifying and doing a proficiency check - that is still P1.

Ask BEagle though - I wouldn't place a cent on anything I say...

[Charlie Zulu]

Yup there is a misconception that P1/S is used whenever you do a flight test, checkout, etc... It is not no matter what some instructors say - I'm sure lasors points this out.

P1/S is only used when one has successfully completed a flight test for the issue of a licence or rating.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Hi all - i have some queries regarding the Night Qualification requisite for commencing JAA CPL.

Is it akin to the cross country requirement in that it is just necessary that you do the 5 hours, 5 take offs and landings, hour solo etc and have it in your log book? Or is something that needs CAA approval and is to be carried out at a CAA approved school etc? Is there any way that the "training" can be seen as "supervised flying" thus negating the need for an M1 visa in the states.

You may be able to see what I'm angling at here. Basically, would i run into any probs doing this in the US without an M1 visa with an instructor not based at an approved CAA school?

All thoughts and opinions welcome.

[Julian]

Chocks,

I did mine a while back in the US at a JAA school. Unless it has changed the format of the course was 3 hours dual with an instructor in which he got you used to the perspective of flying at night, nav and of course the landings.

After that you have to log a further 2 hours of solo night flight in which you could do what you wanted i.e fly to the practice area, circuits, bit of night nav. If you came back alive after the 2 hours you passed!

I am at work so dont have log book or would have a look what it was signed off as, will have a look when I get home tonight.

Julian.

[FlyingForFun]

Chocks,

I did mine at an FAA school, and had no problems.

Basically, take with a copy of LASORS or something similar so that you have the exact requirements in front of you, because your FAA instructor will not know what the requirements are. Then, make sure you meet all of the requirements.

When you send the paperwork to the CAA, you will need your instructor's signature. You can get the form off the CAA website and take it with you so that your instructor can sign it while you are there. Or, if you forget, just fax a copy of the appropriate page to your school once you're back in the UK and get them to fax it back with the instructor's signature - that's what I did, and the CAA didn't seem to mind.

If you do your training at an aifield with ATC, don't be surprised if the controllers query your stop-and-goes, that seems to be a UK-only idea which American controllers have never seen, but they will be able to accomodate you!

There was a query about the legality of solo flight at night when I was there. Assuming you have an FAA license based on your JAA license (which is the most common way of doing things), this license will not allow you to fly at night in the US, because your JAA license doesn't allow you to fly at night (at least not yet). So you will require an FAA student license in order to be able to fly solo at night - and that means all the usual restrictions on student pilots, e.g. no carrying passengers. According to the FARs, you will also need an FAA medical - your JAA medical is good when used with your FAA license based on your JAR license, but not when used with your FAA student license. However, the CFI at my school spoke to his FAA representative, and told me that the FAA are aware of the problem, and they are quite happy for you to fly solo at night on your JAA medical - they intend to update the FARs at some point to represent this but it's way down on their priority list. You might like to get an FAA medical to cover your back.....

Not sure about the Visa requirements. I didn't have one, but thinking about it, I suppose it is training, so it should really be required. But if you're in the States doing a whole hour-building package and the night qualificaiton happens to be part of that, I don't think anyone would pick up on it.

Finally, don't take anything I say as gospel - it's well over 3 years since I did my night qualification, so things may have changed since then.

FFF
---------------

[PilotOnline]

With regard to the paperwork and the pre CPL requirements, is it possible just to fly the required hours, structured as stipulated by the CAA and have the night qualification issued when applying for the CPL? If so, will countersignatures from the instructors in my logbook be sufficient or will the paperwork need signing by them? Only reason I ask this is that I'll have been to two different schools by then to complete my NQ and should have it complete the week before I start my CPL course, at different FTO.

:confused:

[too_sleepy]

Hi
According to the Bible (lasors) the requirement is this:
5 hours night flying as Pilot of Aeroplanes,
comprising of at least 3 hours dual
instruction, including 1 hour cross-country
navigation. and 5 solo take-offs and 5 full-stop
landings.

More here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20D.pdf

I gatehr from this that they require you to have this experience. Where you gain this isn't stated. They also don't state what signatures you need.
I would assume that your logbook would need to indicate this experience and naturally the 3 hours dual instruction should be signed by the instructor.

Hope this helps.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Thanks all for your helpful info. Yup, i've got a pdf of LASORS on my computer but it scares me! I always think there'll be something I'll overlook.

So it looks like i can just do the required hours and experience with an FAA instructor. And I think I will need an FAA Class 3 medical ($50).

Thanks for the help - i was about to relocate to the other side of LA to a less than reputable school (that specifically advertises JAA night qualification). Looks like i can, in fact, do it at the current place I'm hour building from.

Only grey area is doing it on a Visa Waiver without an M1 visa (required for "training"). It just seems like a such a piddly bit of training - hardly more than the check ride i took before hiring out here - that it shouldn't be a problem.

[BillieBob]

Where JAR-FCL 1 refers to an instructor, it means an instructor who holds a JAA licence and rating or is otherwise qualified under Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300 (i.e. is employed by and has been standardised by an approved FTO). You cannot just do the required hours for the JAA night qualification with any old FAA instructor. It would also not be wise to attempt to undertake flight training in the US without the necessary visa.

[LAX]

Guys. Don't panic about visa's. I had a visa to be resident in the U.S. Got my FAA PPL with night qualification at a local flight school, did my required solo hours, take offs, landings at night, went down the CAA with my JAR stuff and they issued my CPL. No worries!

[moon_towers]

Hello there,

I wanna make sure when we logged DUAL time? Is it during the school or we also can logging even during the initial training for the airline(s)?

Thanks alot,

m_t:confused:

[Intruder]

I don't think it matters much after you get your Private Pilot Certificate, except for any dual required for additional ratings. However, I log it in the Sim for any "training" ride (e.g., PT), but not for a check ride (PC or Line Check).

My rule: If an Instructor or Check Airman is in the "training" mode, I log dual.

[moon_towers]

Intruder,

Thanks a lot for u r help.

regards,

m_t:ok:

[machlimter99]

Just a quick question, when you come to fill in your logbook can you count all the time as IFR when doing your IR course- chock to chock??

Can you log your IMC hours this way also

[mad_jock]

You can log IFR when ever you like as long as you obey the IFR rules. Ie above MSA etc flight quadrangal rules etc.

You can depart VFR climb above MSA fly your route in perfect VMC then decend and recover VFR the portion of the flight when your obeying IFR can be logged.

And all time at night out side controlled airspace can be logged as IFR as well. The stuff inside can be logged as well as long as your not under a SVFR clearance

If you depart on a IFR flight plan and return without canceling the plan yes you can.

If you book out VFR to do some handling you can log some of it. as per the the first option.

But don't for gawds sake don't get confused with "sole reference to Instruments" that can only be logged when your under the shields. Or actually flying in IMC. The defintions all changed with JAR and the old system is quite a bit different. I am expecting some inbound from people trained under the old CAA rules because they were different with different requirments for license issue. The sole reference to instrucments isn't really relavent any more unless you want to teach applied instruments as an instructor. For ATPL issue i think it asks for 60 Instrument hours which you will cover in your CPl and IR courses and nothing actually defines what instrument hours are if its sole reference or IFR.

MJ

[despegue]

On an IFR flight plan, you log your flight blocks to blocks as IFR.
Simple as that.
Don't try and invent any "special" rules, exeptions blablabla, keep it simple, it works the best.

[machlimter99]

ok I understand, thanks. What about my IMC rating, what should I log.

Also for the actual should I minus 10 minutes off my IFR time, as i have the screens up then??????

[mad_jock]

Is it IFR you are worried about or "sole use of instruments"?

MJ

[FlyingForFun]

What about my IMC rating, what should I logThere are two ways of logging instrument time.

One way is to log IFR time, in which case do as MJ and Despegue suggest.

The other alternative is to log time flown by sole reference to instrument, in which case you log all the time when you are either under foggles (or any other view-limiting device) or in actual IMC.

For the IMC rating, there is a requirement to log 10 hours of flight by sole reference to instruments, so it makes sense to log the whole course using the second method. For the IR, I don't think it makes any difference, but......

The only time it really makes any difference which method you use is if you are thinking of becoming an IMC or IR instructor. For instructing for the IR, there is an hours requirement of 200 hours of IFR time, or 50 hours of time by sole reference to instruments. There is a lower requirement for instructing for the IMC rating, but again 4 hours of IFR flight corresponds to 1 hour of flight by sole reference to instruments.

I'm guessing that you will find it far easier to log 50 hours of time by sole reference to instruments, than logging 200 hours of IFR time. In which case, you are better off logging all of your instrument flying time as time by sole reference to instruments, at least until you have the required 50 hours. But if you're not planning on instructing, it doesn't make any difference.

FFF
------------

[englishal]

but again 4 hours of IFR flight corresponds to 1 hour of flight by sole reference to instruments.

Who says? Surely time spent flying with "sole reference to the instruments" is just that. You don't guestimate do you???

For instructing for the IR, there is an hours requirement of 200 hours of IFR time, or 50 hours of time by sole reference to instruments.

So you could have an IRI with very little ACTUAL or SIMULATED instrument time? Just "IFR" time (which I'm sure is worthless anywhere else other than England)......Scary, especially at the amount of money charged for their services.......:confused:

[mad_jock]

terminology out break now.

Englishal

FFF is just quoting the lasors

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20H%20.pdf

For the removal of no applied instruments for a FI its 200 hours IFR and if sole reference 1 hour sole reference is counted as 4 hours IFR. This is reduced to 10 sole reference hours if only teaching IMC's

For the IRI its 800 hours IFR and if sole reference 1 hour sole reference is counted as 4 hours IFR.

And you don't need a IRI to teach IR. Its a stand alone rating which only allows you to teach IR. A FI who has thier "no applied instruments restriction" removed can also teach IR as long as they have more than the factored 200 hours IFR.

I haven't heard of any IRI only qualified instructors but I am sure there is one or two out there. All the ones I have seen have done the FI -> FI (no applied instruments removed) -> Multi class rating Instructor -> CPL Instructor -> Then IR instructor.

The only other limit in regards of IFR time is a JAR ops requirment for single crew ops. And these are all JAR rating requirments so in theory they should be the same through out the JAR world.

MJ

[MOONEYPILOT]

Hello just wondering what time counts as PIC time for JAA. Are you not PIC while you are dual/getting instruction?

What about when you get your instrument rateing, then flying with your instructor your commercial, are you PIC or not?

What about when you have your CPL/IR and working on your flight instructor ratings, then are you PIC or not?

Is the JAA rule any time you are getting Dual instruction that you are not pic? Please explain and if possible send me a link where i can figure this out. Helping friend to forward hours to a JAA logbook,,thanks

[Pole Hill]

All to the best of my knowledge....

Hello just wondering what time counts as PIC time for JAA. Are you not PIC while you are dual/getting instruction?
Correct. If you are under instruction, you are P/ut (Pilot under training) If you are not under instruction, i.e you are the commander, then you are PIC, I enter it as P1 in the logbook

What about when you get your instrument rateing, then flying with your instructor your commercial, are you PIC or not?
Same as above.

What about when you have your CPL/IR and working on your flight instructor ratings, then are you PIC or not?
I don't quite know what you mean. If you are the flight instructor, you are PIC. If you are the student, then you are Pu/t.

If you are on a flight test, like the PPL flight test for example, you log the time as P1/s (Pilot in command under supervision).

Hope this helps,
POL

[LFS]

You can find full details on the recording of time (and loads of other useful information ) in Lasors CAA Lasors (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=175&pagetype=68&groupid=780)

Section A Appendix B page 34 gives details on the recording of flight time.

[FlyingForFun]

To add to the above answers:

Under JAR, an aircraft can only ever have one commander. If you are flying with an instructor, under instruction, whatever course it is you are training for, the instructor will be the commander and will log P1 (or PIC). You will log PUT.

(On the other hand, if you are carrying an instructor as a passenger - maybe because, after you get your PPL, you are planning a trip somewhere, and invite your ex-instructor to come along for the ride, then you will log P1 and the instructor does not log the flight. Hence why I needed to qualify the above paragraph with the "under instruction" phrase.)

There are only two times I can think of when you log P1 as you are undergoing a course of training. The first is as a solo student. The second is on the Flying Instructor Course, when carrying out mutual flying. For most of the FIC, you will fly with your instructor, so he will be captain. But the course allows up to a maximum of 5 hours of "mutual" flying where you "instruct" another FIC student for part of the PPL course. In this case, if you are the one "instructing", you are captain. (The student who is receiving the "instruction" does not get to log the flight, but still gets lots of benefit from it just the same.)

But, as LFS says, LASORS contains the full list of how to log time, so there may be some other circumstances that I've missed.

FFF
--------------

[genius747]

Hi, could someone in the know please advise me are you required or advised to get your logbook stamped and signed from the operator of any aircraft you fly?

For example you rent an a/c for a 50hr block rate to hr build.

You do 5 or 6 hrs flying on a friends a/c

You fly occasionaly in a non-profit making club.

Baisically what i'm looking at is, I have built hours towards my fATPL from a few various sources, but I have never got anybody to stamp my logbook or sign off that the time I have logged is accurate and correct.

Will the CAA come to me to verify my logged hours when I apply for my fATPL? There is no problem doing it, but my flying has been conducted in the UK Ireland, USA etc..... its going to be a pain in the ass if they do, but I guess people could log false hours otherwise.... where do I stand here?
Any Ideas.... or maby Im reading into this too much and the CAA take all logbooks at face value relying on good faith? I dunno!

Thanks

[Dude~]

Don't worry, I don't believe they check up with operators unless there is obviously a discrepancy. I can't imagine them phoning private owners in other countries, but it is possible they do a rough check, perhaps based on hours recorded for maintenance.

Anyway, I've just had my Frozen ATPL issued and I have flown many different aircraft in several countries. It would be very time consuming to verify all my flights, and despite the CAA taking 4 weeks to issue my licence I doubt they did check. There were certainly no problems with my hours, just the odd bit of paperwork going astray in the system.

Incidentally many people ask if they should get their 300nm CPL cross country flight signed, but I didn't. If you feel you have to get that signed then why not all your other flights? The CAA form will ask for the date of the flight so they can locate it your logbooks and that's it. Mine was in Australia and they didn't mention it.

Why not ask them?

Also I think most people would agree that someone who falsifies logbook entries will be unlikely to be up to scratch and will get found out. Once they are uncovered they are sure to get clobbered by the CAA and lose all chance of flying again.

[@v8ter]

Thats no good you will have build all your hours from scratch, if your hours are not stamped they do not count. Bad luck....:E

[Frank Furillo]

Hi Genius747
Well I too have done some private flying and never once had it stamped or signed.
However when you undertake training, your training provider will stamp hours correct and verified, for your training hours. You should also get a Course Completion Certificate, which the CAA do want to see.
Also I got my CPL 300NM XCountry stamed but in the back under endorsements.
I don't think you have anything to worry about, check your copy of Lasors, try here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS2005.PDF) Section A, Appendix 16
The only thing I could find that relates to having your logbook signed is thisInstruction time: A summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc. shall be certified bythe appropriately rated and/or authorised instructor from whom it was received.
I had no problem when I had my fATPL Issued.

@v8ter where did you get your information?????
Frank

[Megaton]

Frank,

Note use of smilies in post above! :)

:D :D

[Frank Furillo]

Ham
Bugger thanks mate:) :( :O ;) :D :cool: :rolleyes: :mad: :} :confused:

[genius747]

well, i'm allocating 10 days next month to travel to every operator I ever rented an aircraft from (worldwide) so as I can get that all important rubber stamp and squiggle!!:ok: !

Thanks guys

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

I have flown 1600 hours in USA and now going for a jar-fcl certificate. Do I have to make now a new log book and log everything from the beginnig to JAR-FCL requirements regarding PIC?

[Icarus Wings]

who signed the tech log?

[airmiles]

I have looked through the other questions posed on this area, but have not found what I myself am looking for.

This is the thing. I did all my training the FAA way. Recently I converted the FAA CPL ME & SE into the JAA CPL ME & SE. In the new year I will convert my FAA IR into the JAA ME IR. Whilst I was out in the States the JAA examiner there noticed that according to the JAA system, I did not have enough PIC time. The reason being that I didn't know that the FAA and the JAA log hours differently. In the FAA system you can log time both as Dual Received and PIC, but in the JAA system you can only log either.

Anyhow, I was quite a few hours short of PIC time. I have got them now, but here lies my question. Can someone please explain to me if and how I can log all the hours that I have from my FAA hours, as I have many of them and of course I would like to know how I log them on the SRG\1123 form. I know it is a lot to ask, but is there anyone out there who is willing to help me step by step with part 5 - Flying Experience.

Does this form also allow for you to log your FAA time? Sorry if this seems dumb to ask, its just that I want to send it off properly to the CAA and not have them send it back to me, because I have filled it in incorrectly.

I hope someone out there is kind enough to help me with this. It would be much appreciated.

:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

I don't think we can help you with your entire logbook, no. But I'm sure we can help with specific issues.

The first thing is to understand exactly what it is that you are required to log under JAR. Have a read of LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_06_WEB.pdf), Section A, Appendix B (page 56 of the .PDF file, with page number 38 of Section A printed at the bottom of the page), and if there's anything specific in there you don't understand, come back to us and we'll explain it. Understand the differences between how to log time under FAR and JAR. (You clearly already understand some of the differences.)

As for the exact amount of hours to claim, if you've got several hundred hours in your logbook, it is obviously going to be a pain to re-calculate all your hours. So, where you obviously exceed the requirements, don't bother - just make a rough guess at how many of the specific type of hours you've got, subtract a bit (to be on the safe side), and use that. For example, this is what I do for cross-country hours. My logbook doesn't have a column for cross-country hours. Under JAR, cross-country means more than 3nm from the airfield - in other words, anything except circuits. So I make a rough guess of what percentage of my total flight time is anything other than circuits, and use that. As long as it's lower than the actual number, but higher than the required number, everyone will be happy.

When you are close to having exactly the required number of hours (as you appear to be with your PIC time), I don't think there is any way around it other than to add up the hours line by line. Time consuming, but necessary.

Hope that helps.

FFF
-----------------

[airmiles]

Thank you so much for your help. I looked in Lasors and noticed that in the JAR system you have PIC, SPIC and PICUS. Amazing that this is so different to the FAA system. They only have PIC and during my Multi Engine rating I did make a column for Supervised Solo, so I am hoping that this can count for PICUS or SPIC. Not quite sure which yet as I was not rated in that aircraft yet, but according to the FAA system I had to fly "solo" in the aircraft but an instructor had to be with me. However, he moved away his chair and I was the PIC. I started and finished the flight.

I am a bit confused as how I am supposed to log my Instrument time, as I accumulated many hours here and of course in the FAA system it has all been logged as Dual Received and PIC. Can I put any of these hours down as anything?

I do thank you a lot for helping me with this.

:ok:

I am sure that I have many questions for you as I do this and I hope you do not mind.

:)

I am going to be doing my IR conversion in January and thus will wait to send all the paperwork until then. Will I need to fill out another SRG\1119 for that as I did for the Single Engine add on?

Thanks again for your help.

[FlyingForFun]

If you are not rated on an aircraft, and there is an instructor in the aircraft with you, he is P1, and your are PUT.

The other options you suggest don't apply. SPIC is specific to integrated training courses, and you haven't done an integrated course. The only reason given for logging PICUS in a single-pilot aircraft is for a successful skills test, so that one doesn't count either if it wasn't a test.

From a JAR point of view, an aircraft only ever has one commander, and that will nearly always be the instructor/examiner if he is on board, and you if he is not.

Your instrument time will all count as Dual (PUT) too, if the instructor was on board, assuming that he was captain of the flight. As well as logging it as PUT, you should also have a column in your logbook for recording instrument time, so make sure you count the time in this column too.

Not sure about the paperwork for your IR. I assume by "IR conversion" you mean converting it to JAR? In that case, your best bet is probably to speak to your IR instructor or examiner in January.

FFF
------------------

[genius747]

hi there, i was recently speaking to a friend of mine who is undergoing his ATPL course. He is a good pilot and knows his stuff for sure! He told me that while he was doing his hour building in California to get to his 100hrs PIC to save a few pound he logged a couple of flights he never actualy flew!! To be honest I cant see this really effecting his flying skill or ability as it was only some pleasure hour building. But none the less I'm just curious what would happen if he was found out, or even how would that be found out!

Not something I would recommend, but He's going to be submitting his paperwork to the CAA mid Jan and I'm just hoping he' gets though!!

Happy Xmas guys'n Gals

[KrazyKraut]

If he gets caught, he's screwed, and rightly so.

Deliberate, false entries in a logbook constitute fraud with the aim of obtaining a qualification which will put the perpetrator into a position to be responsible for the lives of hundreds of others.

The CAA - rightly - takes a very serious stance towards this.

I have heard of a story where a falsely logged cross-country flight was detected by the CAA at the time of licence application, and the pilot's whole licence was revoked; his further career as a pilot found an abrupt end.

Further, I quote from a CAA application form:

It is an offence to make, with intent to deceive, any false representations for the purpose of procuring the grant, issue, renewal or variation of any certificate, licence, approval, permission or other document. Persons doing so render themselves liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (currently £5000, or in Northern Ireland £2000) and on conviction on indictment to an unlimited fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.

In other words, your knowledgeable friend, who knows his stuff for sure, might get some quality time to reflect on things in prison.

Your friend jeopardises himself and others - future passengers and fellow wannabes, who have to jump through the same hoops to get their qualifications.

I hope he has the sense to correct his logbook before he sends it in.

KK

[BillieBob]

Well, it's pretty clear, for a start, that 'genius747's statement that he hopes that his 'friend' get's through is a load of bollox, or he wouldn't have raised the subject in the first place. That aside, one can only agree with KrazyKraut, especially as the CAA is rumoured to be looking increasingly closely at the conduct of JAA flight training in the USA.

It would appear, for example, that it is almost impossible to fail a CPL skill test, unless one is stupid enough to use the wrong FE (there are, of course, only two to choose from). On the evidence of the US-trained product that I and my fellow TRIs have to deal with on a daily basis, it's long past time that the UK CAA got a grip of their self-made disaster area.

[scroggs]

Your 'friend' is a criminal, and I very much hope he is caught. Such behaviour is fraudulent and inconsistent with the integrity required in a safety-critical occupation. Tell him to cough up the money and fly the hours.

Scroggs

[potkettleblack]

If the CAA had the time and inclination to do a full audit I wouldn't have thought that it would be all that difficult. Just think of the paper trail that is maintained at a FTO. From booking sheets and hobbs meter readings, prop logs, engine logs etc it isn't hard to marry up the total time flown from the FTO records to a pilots log book and note any discrepancies. Somewhere in LASORS or the FAA equivalent there will no doubt be rules about how long these records must be maintained which will invariably be a number of years at a minimum. If your friend logged landings at controlled airports then it would be relatively simple to obtain a list of tail numbers on the given days and check back to the logbook again. Pretty simple stuff really that a first year auditor at any of the Big 4 could do in a few hours.

Also don't forget that each time your logbook is submitted to the CAA that a copy is taken and whilst they may sign off your licence there and then there is no reason whatsoever to stop them from auditing the logbook at a later stage. I would imagine that there would be "understandings" between the different licensing agencies across the world to obtain information if they needed it as well.

Although there are anecdotes recited at every FTO that the CAA is weak on checking logbooks I don't believe this for a minute and pure logic would dictate that they regularly audit a sample of logbooks without any of us being any the wiser.

[B200Drvr]

He might not get caught initially, but just wait untill he has an incident or accident, they will go through his logbook with a fine toothcomb. They will verify every single flight he did and with whom it was done, as well as every single solo flight.
There are few things in life that are as outright stupid as what your friend has done.

[Nimbus5]

Your friend is an idiot and a criminal. He will get caught in time. Let's take the accident investigation scenario a bit further for yet another ramification. Not only will aviation authorities investigate, but so will any insurance companies who have underwritten your friend. So he can add insurance fraud to his list of offenses as well. He'll also have to cough up the monies due to any victims when the insurance company denies the claim based on his falsified policy application.

I question not only his judgement, but yours too since you think that he's such a great pilot when he clearly lacks the judgement to be a true pro.

The scenario makes me wonder if he is you rather than a friend and you only posted it in the guise of a friend because you've suddenly had a temporary lapse into "good conscience." I do hope this is the case as you still have time to correct your logbook.

[Bealzebub]

genius747, lets be clear about a couple of things.

He is a good pilot

No he isn't ! He is dishonest with himself and others. His behaviour is immature fraudulant and criminal. You may need to research the subject a little further, but these are not the attributes that are generally considered to make a "good pilot".

knows his stuff for sure

No he doesn't ! he doesn't understand the rules, he doesn't understand the basic requirements and why they are there in the first place. He doesn't understand the law and what will happen to him if his supposed violations are discovered. He doesn't even seem to understand the rank idiocy of then commiting a crime and telling "your friend" of that offence. One can only wonder at what other "stuff" you think he knows for sure.

To be honest

Unlike the company you keep.




I cant see this really effecting his flying skill or ability


Skills and ability are a result of experience. If the experience is nothing more than fantasy and a ball point pen where is this skill and ability exactly ? If anybody is ever unlucky enough to be injured or killed as a result of flying with an individual who lied about his experience, can you begin to imagine the field day the claimants lawyers will quite rightly have with him, his estate, and his unfortunate employer.



I'm just curious what would happen if he was found out, or even how would that be found out!

He would be prosecuted, possibly imprisoned and almost certainly prevented from ever working within this industry as a pilot. His career would be over before it ever began. How would he be found out ? Well I am sure there are people from the CAA that read this site. In fact I am very sure ! It wouldn't be very difficult to weed out those applicants with 100 hours PIC amassed in california and submitting in January or February just from what you have posted.



He's going to be submitting his paperwork to the CAA mid Jan and I'm just hoping he' gets though!!

Then you are a poor judge of character. Nobody in their right mind should be hoping "he gets through". Perhaps you should tell "your friend" to tear up his fictitious logbook and set about rectifying the shortfall in his real experience. Whilst he is at it he might want to take a seriously introspective look at his character and behaviour and question whether he is the sort of person he thinks suitable for this profession. Unfortunetaly his ability to lie to himself may make this something of a moot point.

Hopefully your "friend" will be caught ( assuming this isn't something of a seasonal joke) and the information you have posted certainly should make that more likely.

Happy Xmas to you too.

[Danny_manchester]

Hi, whilst on the subject, what about if a pilot was to not log flights which were not flown, but to add an extra hour onto X country flights etc..? same offence in the eyes of the CAA? Less likely to be cougght out?

thanks guys

[chuks]

Not long ago there was a case in the States of some clown who had more hours than required for the rating applied for, but ALSO had some falsified hours in his logbook. He attempted to defend himself on the basis that the falsified hours made no difference but he was crucified on the simple basis that he had made false entries in the logbook. I think the FAA revoked his license, with a two-year ban on even re-applying for it. He appealed and lost, when the case made the aviation news.

Not many people pay close attention to it but check out the bottom line on any application for a medical, a license or a rating. It means just what it says, as that fellow found out.

Your 'friend' should probably think about swapping that falsified logbook for another one with only correct entries. It would be a lot less trouble than leaving that paper trail out there to be discovered some day.

You ever notice how most logbooks are rather well-made? Pages bound in 'signatures' and, often, numbered, so that you cannot just snip a page out without that being obvious. Why might that be?

Crazy stuff happens: There was an airline pilot who overlooked a timely renewal of his medical and then decided to just carry on without it. Finally a flight deck inspection caught up with him after a couple of years, when, of course, all hell broke loose. You could probably sum up this sort of thing by saying that it must have seemed like a good idea at the time.

[Bealzebub]

Because danny, it is a legally required record of your actual experience. Unlike this website where almost anybody can write any nonsense and live out their fantasies (in a few cases), the logbook is a record of what a person has actually done. It is not something to be fraudulantly altered for the purpose of procuring a licence or employment. Neither is it a case of of not being caught out. You might be able to rob your local off licence (liquor store) without being caught out, but that does not make it a target, achievment or challenge for the vast majority of people.

How happy would you be if the surgeon operating on you or your family had sort of lied about his experience a bit. In the event of him damaging you or your family would you say "oh well there you go". I doubt it, and no doubt the subsequent claim would fall squarely on the shoulders of the "negligent" hospital who failed to ensure adequate checks were made. If you see my point !

This is a difficult profession to get in to, and the temptation to apply illegal shortcuts is certainly there. However that does not mitigate or justify criminal actions to achieve a deceptive result. Anyone that does take this route assumes the same risk as the robber in the off license.

[Danny_manchester]

No B, i think you will find it IS a case of the pilot being found out, because you WILL always find somebody .......... who doesn't care, and falsifying records/logs/medicals/licenses is just a way to carry on doing what they want to do.

Maybe they regulatory bodies should check all hours flown, and all licenses/ratings issued, this way you wouldn't get people being able to get away with these sort of things.

And i certainly didn't imply that i think its justified by the temptation to get a job in a challanging area!

[genius747]

I agree with the majority of comments made here today. I even took the step of calling my friend who is actually from Denmark, but undergoing the CAA ATPL course. I asked him to go online and take a look at the thread I started. His response to me was, he knew of several FAA pilots at the airfield that had done similar. To be honest I don't even know how many hours he's logged that are inaccurate.
When I said he was a good pilot for sure, the only thing I can base that statement on was the evening I went flying with him which was great. At the early stages of ATPL goundschool myself I realise the large costs that pave the road to the left hand seat, but all the same I would hate to see somebodys futue career go down the drain just to save a few pound. HOPEFULLY HE WILL RECONSIDER!!!
I think it is a testoment to the professional pilots and wannabees out there that this thead has evocked such a positave response to aviation safety matters.

[KrazyKraut]

Well, "Genius", thanks to the "testoments" you've been making on this thread, by now the CAA should be able to figure out who your friend is when he sends in his licence:

1) A danish name in all likelihood
2) Doing a course at an FTO approved by the CAA in the USA
3) Renting planes from another - possibly American - FTO in California for the post-PPL hourbuilding phase.

As BillieBob pointed out, this is probably exactly what you want.

Once again, there's no reason whatsoever - cost included - to go down the route of making up flights that never took place, but there is every reason not to do it.

If your idiot friend has any sense at all, he'll scrap his loogbook and start a new one, which contains only flights that actually took place.

KK.

[aztec25]

What a real shame for the poor guy

:E

[TolTol]

Whats his name?:p

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Logbook falsification is far more common than you might think. I read an NTSB report a little while back about a King Air crash in 2002 that killed a US senator. The captains has supposedly lost a logbook. His new logbook opened up with several thousand hours more than the previous logbook finished with. During this period he did not have an aviation job and his hours indicated in medicals were much lower than those in the logbook.

I also know one pilot I worked with in the USA who must have falsified up to 300hrs of flight time to take him up to the 1000hrs needed to get a turboprop job. There are other stories as well. I hope that the Danish fella gets caught and crucified. I suspect though, that he'll get away with it and carry on penciling in whatever it takes to get a job.

[chuks]

We had a local hero flying the mighty Cessna Citation V when the contractee came up with a requirement for PICs to have X number of hours. It was pretty well known that yer man only had X minus about 200 hours, since the airplane hardly flew.

The strangest thing then occurred; he had a break-in, when the only things stolen were his logbooks. Some drug addict probably took them to sell them, as one does. Not to worry, though, he was able to reconstruct from memory his flight times, including X nuimber of hours on the Citation V.

I reckon people who take shortcuts get theirs, sooner or later. At least they know we know and we know they know we know and ... Who needs to live like that? Not me!

[ssg]

As a corporate piiot, I see evidence of P51 time all the time, and while those pilots are out there, the real bastards are the people that hire them.

Not hard to tell honest flight time from bogus.

Remember:

Someone who logs say 200 hours of flight time is ripping you off one year of your flying experience.

They got the job you didn't.

They are misrepresenting thier experience and could kill someone

They are driving up the insurance rates

They are making pilots look dishonest.

[smith]

Think there was an incident a few years ago of a pilot in the south coast of England a pilot on a trip, didn't check the fuel level in his tanks, ran out of fuel very quickly and put it down in a field.

The CAA threw the book at him for running out of fuel, the subsequent investigation revealed a huge falsification of hours in his logbook. He ended up in court and was found guilty.

I remeber the defence lawyer speaking of his client that he wanted to be a commercial pilot and falsifed his details to reduce the time it took him.

Just shows, you cut corners in logging hours, you cut corners in your walk round, it'll catch up on you eventually.

When I was in the states flying with an instructor, the instructor said to me that I could log the hours as solo, my concience would not let me and I logged them as duel.

747

I realy think you were being very naive in your posting, PPRUNE stands for PROFESSIONAL Pilots rumour network!!! What did you expect in reply from professionals? Did you expect replies to say it was absolutely fine and tell him to go ahead and send his logbook in? Frankly I am quite astonished by this post.

[Dirty Harry 76]

I presume when you mean he is following a CAA ATPL Course that this person will be applying for Licence issue in the UK?

If this is the case I hope someone from the CAA/Flight Crew Licencing department reads this thread and audits all the infromation supplied by any Danish pilot for Licence or rating issue to catch this pathetic cheat.

[Özcan]

what will happend in the future when technology has gone even further and all the flights of the past has been stored in databases and all the aircrafts' logs aswell, a click of a button will tell if there are any inconsistensies so maybe you'll get away with it in the short run but in the long run you might run out of luck :E

[Lasiorhinus]

funny, when i was in the states i had an instructor tell me the same thing... and i logged it as dual also.
his logic was, he never touched the controls.
my logic was, it was a type conversion to an aircraft id never flown before, and he talked me through a lot of the flight.

[mad_jock]

There is nothing wrong with an instructor telling someone to log PIC when they are onboard. As long as the flight isn't going to be recorded for any offical reason.

When the local PPL's who where on the build for hours needed a school check ride I used to let them log PIC and didn't log anything myself. I know i could have demanded to log it but as most of the trip was spent by me looking for dolphins its only fair.

MJ

[TooLowTerrain]

tutt tutt tutt.

Your buddy is attempting to obtain a precunary advantage by deception not just licence but insurence.. Criminal under the theft act.

You have grassed him up....lol:p one would not have to be the best detective to find your boy.

But I would imagine that he'll get a way with it until it all goes wrong then,

He can pull his pants down and spread his cheeks cause he is gonna get rogered senseless and then,

He will go to prison and get some more:sad:

And he will deserve every single inch:ooh:

[B2N2]

Unfortunately the chances of being caught are extremely slim, unless you get involved in an accident there is rarely any reason to doubt your logbook.
It is still an honour system and in that regard somewhat out dated.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I agree with B2N2 that the chances of being caught are slim. One of the guys I know who did it is in line for captaincy of a 25 ton turboprop. I don't think he will meet the ATPL minimums by the time he upgades.

However if Genius747 happens to be a friend of yours and you decide to tell him; well I guess your chances of being caught increase somewhat!

[sikeano]

too low terrain
that is a good post
:cool:

[Glide Perfectionist]

I have made a search for the answer, but to no avail. Nor can I find the answer in LASORS. I have written to the CAA for the answer, but as always it will take weeks to get a reply. So here goes.

Do PICUS hours gained on flight tests count towards the 100hr PIC requirement for CPL issue? Anyone who knows the answer - help!

[Sky Wave]

as far as I can recall they only count if the log book entry is countersigned by the examiner and if the hours were gained following the successful outcome of a skills test.


I had hours deducted from my 100 hours because I had logged P1/S for club check outs.

[BigGrecian]

PICUS or SPIC can also be counted on an integrated course as well. I suggest you contact your school and ask them for further details.

[powdermonkey]

Hi,
After my PPL flight test, my examiner told me that I could log it as P1 because I had passed....he didn't mention Picus.....:uhoh:
should it be changed? I was wondering myself, when you get trained on a 172 after having gained your SE/Land piston PPL on a 152 for example, that time learning on a different ac, is it P1 or Picus? Again, no one has given me a clear answer. As far as I can tell, you are exercising the priviledges of your licence, so surely it is P1, even though you have an instructor with you?
Any more clues out there?

[BillieBob]

As Sky Wave suggests, the hours gained in successful completion of licence and rating skill tests may be counted towards the 100 hours PIC requirement. However, according to JAR, these flights should not have been recorded as PICUS, which applies only to a co-pilot "on an aeroplane on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aeroplane or as required by JAR–OPS". This is yet another example of LASORS getting it wrong.

The skill tests that would count towards PIC time during modular training would be only the PPL Skill Test, CPL Skill Test, MEP Class Rating and IR Skill Test - progress checks and club 'checkouts' do not count. Only a full pass may be counted towards PIC time, partial passes should be recorded as Dual flight time.

PICUS should not be recorded on an integrated course (see above) and SPIC is a quite different proposition - 50 hours is specifically written into the integrated course syllabus and is, therefore, not relevant to modular training

[Glide Perfectionist]

Thanks for the replies.

BillieBob, I have inadvertantly put down a partial pass as a PICUS when I think now it should have been PUT. The implications are that I think I was about 1hr when I started my ME training (70hrs PIC minimum requirement). It may be time to contact the CAA and admit a genuine mistake that I made when adding up my hours.

[Linda Mollison]

GP

As far as I am aware:

If you get a partial on your first atttempt this counts as PUT.

If you then convert it to a pass on your second (or third etc) attempt, you can count this time as P1.

Linda

[Henry Hallam]

I was wondering myself, when you get trained on a 172 after having gained your SE/Land piston PPL on a 152 for example, that time learning on a different ac, is it P1 or Picus? Again, no one has given me a clear answer. As far as I can tell, you are exercising the priviledges of your licence, so surely it is P1, even though you have an instructor with you?
Any more clues out there?

Can anybody else shed any light on this? I'm in pretty much the same situation. Are the rules different for JAA vs FAA?

[woof]

To the best of my knowledge PICUS can be claimed for successful tests and ratings such as PPL / CPL skills test and IR.

Picus does not need to be countersigned in ones logbook if an accompanying test sheet is submitted to the CAA. Some instructors however like to sign as belt and braces.

Club checks, which include conversions on same catergory aircraft, such as Cessna 152 to 172 do not count.

Hope this helps. Best advice is phone the CAA / SRG

Woof

[High Wing Drifter]

After my PPL flight test, my examiner told me that I could log it as P1 because I had passed....he didn't mention Picus
It is PICUS and entetered in the PIC column and counts as PIC time.

that time learning on a different ac, is it P1 or Picus?
You mean a checkout? Neither, They should be logged as PUT because to me, that is being under instruction for a new type within a class. Bizzarely you could count checkouts as P1 if the pilot checking you out is not an instructor! It does beg the question that you could log P1 if they were an instructor and they declined to log P1 themselves.

Linda,
If you then convert it to a pass on your second (or third etc) attempt, you can count this time as P1.
I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "or third etc". If you didn't pass within two attempts then you've failed. Do you mean that if you pass within Series 1 you can count the Skills Test (all required flights within the two attempts) as P1 or just the last flight?

[Linda Mollison]

HWD

Obviously I did not make myself clear.

If you do not get a full pass, the whole flight should be logged as PUT.

If you go to do a partial (or a full) test having partly (or completely) failed a previous attempt, and you pass that partial (or full) test then you can log that flight as P1.

In other words the only time you can log P1 is when you are successful in what you are doing, whether this is a partial attempt or a full attempt.

It is also my understanding that, if you do a checkout and
- the person sitting next to you (whether an instructor or not) is acting only as a safety pilot, i.e. you are sole manipulator of the controls and ;
- the techlog and your logbook records you as P1 with your name (or self) as aircraft commander;
then you can record this as P1.

But this is genuine P1 and not PICUS.

As has been said before, PICUS is only for sucessful skill tests.

Hope this helps.

Linda

[High Wing Drifter]

Helps alot. Thanks :)

[too_sleepy]

Hi
This is really starting to bug me. I've purchased a copy of Skylog to help keep track of the vast hours I've flown. All 105.
It's a good application but it makes me worry that I might not have logged my flight hours correctly in my paper logbook.

As a student pilot under instruction, are hours entered as dual, or can they be entered as SPIC (assuming this is Student Pilot Under Instruction)?

How do you enter X-country flights with multiple legs? I have one logged on three seperate lines, one for each leg. Another is logged on one line using tiny writing such as KAPF-KVNC-KAPF?

Thr CAA accepted my logbook as it was for my PPL so it's not a major problem, it just bugs me that it's a little disorganised.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[FlyingForFun]

Your school would be the best people to help you out on this. However, under JARs:

You can only log SPIC if you are on an integrated course, in which case your instructor will tell you when you can do this. If you are on a modular course, you log dual time as PUT.

Navigation should be logged as one flight, unless you land and shut down. I.e, If you don't land, or if you just do a touch+go at your destination, it's one flight. If you stop the aircraft (to pay landing fees, or have a cup of tea, for example) then it's two flights.

FFF
--------------

[too_sleepy]

Thanks for the reply FlyingForFun

I did a full time PPL course and logged all of these hours as dual. This was what I was told to do at the time. If I could log some of these hours as SPUC they would count towards the requirements of 100 hours P1 for the commercial. I blast an email off to the school and see what they think.

Thanks

[LFS]

As FFF says if you just did a PPL course you cannot log any of the time as SPIC. You can log the successful flight test as P1/s putting the examiners name as the commander but putting the time in the P1 column however this cannot count towards the 100 hours PIC for a CPL.

[SkyRocket10]

All solo time performed during the PPL can be logged as P1, and it DOES count towards the 100hrs PIC for commercial issue, as does the PPL skills test.

[High Wing Drifter]

Have a look at LASORS in the Appendix for Section A. There is guidance on what you should log time as and under what circumstances.

[LFS]

It is quite possibly another inconsistancy with licence issue by I know of people who have had CPL applications 'bounced' for including P1/s in the 100 hours PIC. As although Lasors clearly says P1/s logged when a co-pilot can be counted it doesn't specifically say if P1/s from successful flight tests can be counted towards licence hours requirements. You can include the P1 time from the PPL though.

[LFS]

As I said, I do not have a definitive either way it appears to be some defferent interpretations from different licensing people I shall endeavour to contact the CAA for a firm answer.

[FlyingForFun]

Dylan,

I have never heard that PICUS time can not count towards requirement for P1 time. Fair enough if there are different interpretations, but I've never seen anything that could be interpretated that way. Do you have a reference?

A reference for the oposing viewpoint - that PICUS hours do count towards your P1 time - is LARSORS Section A Appendix B. Row J clearly states that a successful skills test is logged as PICUS (which I think we all agree on), and that you should "Enter time in 'P1' column and have it certified by aircraft commander".

Row B relates to a co-pilot performing duties of PIC under supervision of the pilot-in-command - a situation which is not direclty relevant to skills tests, but which is also logged as PICUS, so it's worth reading the comments in this row about PICUS. The comments here state: "Counted in full toward licence experience requirements subject to certification by the pilot-in-command", which I think is about as definite as you can get.

FFF
-------------

[Captain_Scooby]

Having been a naughty boy and logged all my flights on a spreadsheet, its now time to update my paper logbook. Its becoming a rather daunting task, so was wondering if there were any good sites with useful advice on how to do it properly without doubling the company value of 'Tippex'. Also, I'm logging every flight I've done, and am unsure whether I would be allowed to include a trail lesson in a three-axis microlight.

Your advice appreciated (this would be so much easier with a search function on prune!)

CS

[powdermonkey]

Hi Folks
Was wondering: if 2 PPLs are flying, one does the takeoff and landing from LHS, can the other log P1 time from the RHS if he flies the route or part of the route?
Thanks

[-IBLB-]

sure, as long as you are both qualified for the plane.
Also, only on at a time can log, so the time you log between you, has to be the total time of the flight/block time.
The physical position of a pilot (LHS/RHS) has no influence on logging time.

[nick14]

unfortunatly unless the aircraft is a multi crew aircraft then you cannot log hours in the right hand seat.

In order to log hours and be the PIC i believe you must perform the takeoff and landing.

The way to do it is to fly a 2 leg route you fly one leg,takeing off and landing then you swop into the righthand seat and then let your mate fly the rest!!

Thats the way i do it anyway

Nick:ok:

[Parson]

I assume you mean 2 PPLs hiring the a/craft togther - as I understand it, you split the block time in accordance with who was in control and record it as P1. The total combined time should therefore equal the block time.

[powdermonkey]

Both pilots are se/land rated, but one for example is checked out on a 172, the other on a 152. Therefore, if the pilot familiar with the 172 does the takeoff/landing, and the other doesn't, can the pilot in the rhs then take over in flight and fly the leg, handing back controls prior to descent. Therefore one pilot logs takeoff and climb/descent and landing time, the other logs the cruise part of the flight.
The reason for asking is that I have not being checked out on a 172, but have plenty of hours on 150/152. My friend is checked out on the 172. If we are to take a 172 for a long cross country, I (under school rules) cannot sit in the lhs, but I am totally capable of flying the route, from the rhs. This would be the reason why we are not able to log a leg each. It is not critical, but seems a waste if I cannot log part of the flight.
I also do not want to log anything I am NOT allowed to do!
Thanks for your input

[Parson]

Regardless of what seat you are in, I would imagine that you wouldn't be allowed to be PIC, under club rules (and also legally) unless you were checked out for that aircraft type. If you had an 'incident' and you were in control, I think you'd be on very dodgy ground. Why don't you just get checked out yourself? Shouldn't take more than a hour.

[Re-Heat]

Altered, as I was incorrect.

Careful of the insurance though

[powdermonkey]

Thanks guys, that's as much as I thought, like I said, it hasn't happened yet and so, it isn't an issue, just thought it was worth investigating!
At the moment the reason I haven't bothered getting checked out on the 172, is that it is more expensive than the 152 for self-fly hire, and I AM ON A VERY TIGHT BUDGET! Having said that, it will make things a lot more flexible, so I will do it soon. I need to log 10hrs this month or else my PPL is dead in the water, so I was looking at this in case of weather/unavailability of 150/152 etc which my restrict access to the planes I am rated/checked out on. Not to worry, but thank you for your input/advice.
Cheers
PM

[FlyingForFun]

I can't see any reason why two people who are legally allowed to fly an aircraft shouldn't share P1 time for a single leg between them as long as this is agreed in advance - I don't know anywhere which says it's allowed, but I also don't know anywhere which says it isn't allowed.

However, as others have said, if you're not checked out on the aircraft, and club rules require a checkout, you are not insured, therefore you can not log P1 in this case.

Two points from your last post:the reason I haven't bothered getting checked out on the 172, is that it is more expensive than the 152 for self-fly hire, and I AM ON A VERY TIGHT BUDGETWeight+balance permitting, you can get 4 people in a C172, which means you can cost-share with 3 other non-pilots, thus reducing your costs considerably!!!I need to log 10hrs this month or else my PPL is dead in the waterYou do not need to complete the 12 hours to revalidate your license - you can also do the revalidation by test. Just do as much training as required - which might be as little as 1/2 hour or as much as 5-6 hours - and then a test which lasts a couple of hours. Less hours, and therefore less cost, than revalidation by experience. Your local flying school should be able to go through the details with you, and arrange whatever instruction is necessary as well as the test with an examiner.

FFF
-----------------

[Julian]

As FFF says, there is nothing to stop you both logging time as P1, as long as total time between you both equals total duration of flight, i.e. 1 hour flight, Pilot 1 logs 40 mins, Pilot 2 logs 20 mins, etc, etc.

Multi-crew does not come into it as only one of you is P1 (unless you are safety pilot if flying under the FAA FARs but thats a different story!!!). Not sure how a 'club' can stipulate who logs P1 either!!!

I have done this several times with friends on a long flights where we have swapped over P1 mid-air for a break.

Julian

[BEagle]

I concur with FFF!

[powdermonkey]

OK So:

1. get checked out on 172 to satisfy club/insurance etc.
2. Can swap P1 time in the air on a single leg, no overlaping of p1 time between the 2 pilots ( absolutely agreed on that one!! )
3. FFF, have logged 1hr and 20 mins in the past 19MONTHS, due at first to job/lack of time, second lack of job/lack of funds ( due to studying for ATPLs ) and thirdly all my attention went to ATPLs in past year, and put flying on the backburner! THEREFORE, I need to get my experience back up FIRST, so unfortunately, I don't think I could pass a flight test straight away, as I would be a little rusty!! I did get a sign off from the FTO last week which wasn't bad considering it was my first flight after such a long time, but although I was safe and could handle the ac, I don't think I would be sharp enough for a real flight test.....unfortunately:ugh: MORE IMPORTANTLY THOUGH, and I take your point that the retraining for a test may only take a couple of hours, I need to get my P1 time up fast, as I want to start CPL training as soon as ATPL's are done ( looks like April ), so the hours are not wasted as such.:ok:

[172driver]

Powdermonkey,
while not sure about the JAA regs, under FAA regs you certainly can. PIC (or P1 as you call it) is defined as 'sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft'. The PIC role can pass from one to the other as many times as you like during a flight and where you sit is irrelevant (well, as long as it's somewhere from where you can reach the controls :E ).
Also, t/o and landing don't come into play here. However, you must have the approriate rating, i.e. be legal to fly the a/c in question (rating, medical).

[NW3]

I've been doing some digging on electronic logbooks - currently writing one for the web which i hope to have ready soon.

The CAA doesn't actually require you to keep a paper logbook - there's nothing wrong with keeping an electronic one. All you would have to do is sign each page of the printout individually if you ever did have to send it to them.

LASORS is the place to look for the lowdown on all that sort of stuff - search google.

hth

NW3

[WingDown]

This question came up at a club I fly at recently, two guys looking to share the time. Provided they were both checked and current there was no problem. However, I remember one of the guys being right hand checked by an instructor round the circuit to ensure they could competently t/o and land the thing in the right hand seat which they were happy to do. As long as you agree the block time break down between you both and inform the club what you are doing, there should be no problem.

WD

[powdermonkey]

Thanks everyone! My FTO rules are what is important here, so even though I have PPL and rating for SE/Land Piston, the check out in the 172 will be what counts to make it all square. Will get it done in the next few weeks and crack on. :ok:

[Steve aka Buk]

When I did my PPL training, I did it with no intention of pursuing a career in aviation - it was purely for fun and so some of my entries in my logbook where `not neat` (ie. different coloured inks used, entries scrubbed out etc.) I have now decided to take my training more seriously and will be starting at a major flight organisation very soon doing PPL to ATPL(f) via the modular route.

I am now at the stage where I need to start hour building but I would prefer to enter these hours in a nice shiney new `professional` logbook. But what I would like to know is can I transfer my current entries and get the flight school to sing for them as correct? Or is all this just pointless and I should just carry on using my original logbook.

The reason I ask is that when the time comes, I would like to present to any interviewer who asks, a properly formatted logbook.



PS. This is a great site! I have only just discovered it and find it very informative.

[powdermonkey]

I had EXACTLY the same problem, but mine was due to the fact that I did not add up my times correctly as per the written instructions at the start of the logbook. So I went to the IAA, and told them I wished to write up a new one and could they stamp/sign it to make it official. They said no problem, to write on the old log book, Volume 1 and the new one Volume 2, but that I had to keep the first log book for my/their records as it is the one with all the official stamps, instructor's counter signatures, PPL examiner signature etc.
My old log book is an embarassment so I know exactly how you feel.

[-IBLB-]

If you want to use a different logbook, I would copy all the entries to a new logbook, and write a note somewhere in the front saying something like "all entries between date X and date Y are copied from other logbooks. No need to get stamps/signatures etc. If someone really wants to check up on them, you will always have the original with the signatures/stamps.

I have done the same thing, where i copied multiple smaller logbooks of SEP, MEP and Glider time in one book. I never have been asked to show the originals.

[sdryh]

It is always good to keep a copy of your log book anyway.. imagine loosing it.. how would you remember what was in it.. I keep 2 on the go, one neat one and one from when i started the PPL..

Ryh

[My names Turkish]

Doing my initial line training at the moment. Am not sure how I should log the hours, some Line Trainers suggest that all time is logged as Dual recieved, others have suggested the legs that I am the Handling Pilot/PF should be logged as PIC/us.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[mad_jock]

If your PF it should be logged as PICUS, if your PNF its co-pilot.

Logging dual in a multi crew aircraft thats a new one though.

[My names Turkish]

Madjock, Thanks for that. I agree with you, I thought the idea of Dual was a mistake. I am licenced to fly the machine after all, I presume Line Training is not a licencing requirement rather a company requirement? Just wanted to confirm.

[FlightDetent]

You are correct. Dual is for JAR-FCL training, not JAR-OPS courses. Once you have your licence, no need for it.

Mad_jock in correct also in his UK view. In many other JAA countries being PF F/O does not entitle you to log PIC (US) at all.

FD
(the un-real)

[John001]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone out there could help me out regarding filling in my new Jeppesen JAR-FCL logbook.

Column 9 "Operational condition time" - I'm unsure as to whether I must carry forward the 5 hours night flying (from when I did the night rating several months ago) onto succesive pages.
That is, where its written on the bottom "Total from previous pages" should I keep entering these 5 hours at the bottom of Column 9?

Is "total time" comprised SOLELY from the hours in column 10?! For example if I have 300hrs PIC and 80hrs dual but I have 5 night hours at the bottom of column 9 my total time is then 385hrs but is this incorrectly presented?
Should I be leaving out those 5 night hours from the bottom of column 9 and dividing them into PIC and DUAL in Column 10 "Pilot function time"???

That is, I have 3hrs DUAL night and 2hrs PIC night so column 9 would be empty and column 10 would then read:
302hrs PIC, 83hrs DUAL again giving 385hrs TOTAL. But if I did that then I couldn't at all easily keep track of my night hours total in future. Oh the confusion! :bored:

Apologies for being so long winded, I'm not even female! (I'm just kiddding ladies!!):D

all suggestions greatly appreciated,

thanks,

John.

[FlyingForFun]

I don't have the logbook in front of me, so the column numbers you quote aren't really any help, but I think I know what you're talking about.

Does you logbook have the following columns on the right hand side of the page:

- Night
- Instrument
- P1
- P2
- Dual
- Instructor
- A few columns for simulator time
- Comments

If that's the one, then read on. If not, then I'm thinking of a different logbook to you, so ignore the rest of this post.

The way I think the logbook should be filled in, and the way I fill it in, is to include all hours in the P1 or Dual column as appropriate. (Or the P2 column once the time comes.) Thus your Total Flight Time (which is on the left hand side of the page) should be equal to your P1 + P2 + Dual.

You also indicate, on the first two column of the right hand side, whether the flight time was night or instrument. So for P1 night, the time would go in both the P1 column and the Night column.

So, using the numbers you give, you should have 302 hours P1, 83 hours dual, and your total will be (302+83=)385 hours. You will also have 5 hours in the Night column, but this is not added to the total because you have already included those 5 hours in your P1 and Dual.

These numbers should be added up at the bottom of the page, and all of them copied over to the next page.

Hope that makes sense. It's a little different from other logbooks which have Day columns and Night columns which need to be added together to get the total. No problem tracking your total night hours using the method I've described; the only thing you can't track easily is how much of those night hours are P1 vs Dual.

FFF
------------------

[John001]

Hi FFF,

thanks for your reply. The way you describe makes the most sense, I thought that was how I should be doing it!
Well I'm off to Madrid shortly to tackle the IR, adios y gracias!

regards

John.

[CVT Pilot]

Hi,
I wonder if anyone can help me - I was unsure whether to post this in the training forum or not, however I thought that those with more experience may be able to help better.
I am about to start further training for my CPL/MEP/IR and need a new logbook to see me through and into my career afterwards. I'm currently using a logbook that is only really useable for PPL and was looking at the new Jeppesen European logbook; but have been told that it isn't very good for logging P1/S hours as there isn't really a suitable column.
Could anyone help me on this or suggest a suitable alternative?
Kind Regards,
CVT Pilot.

[Keygrip]

The phrase "Further training" suggests you are following the modular route - in which case I would ask you where you are going to do P1/s hours?

I don't mean where geographically - I mean where in the syllabus?

[FougaMagister]

Keygrip - the CPL and ME/IR skill tests will be logged as P1 U/S if successful; otherwise as P2.

CVT Pilot - I believe most JAA-qualified (as opposed to CAA-qualified) commercial pilots use the Jeppesen JAA Professionnal Pilots' Logbook.

A bit pricy though!

Cheers :cool:

[Jinkster]

I agree with keygrip.

I have a european JAR logbook and when you pass a test - its goes as P1 time, put the examiners name as PIC and get him to sign it.

[Keygrip]

the CPL and ME/IR skill tests will be logged as P1 U/S if successful; otherwise as P2.

Close, but no cigar - logged as P1/s when successful - logged as DUAL when failing the first attempt at the I/R.

You really going to open a whole new logbook just to record two flights (which count as P1 hours anyway and can go in the command column)?

[Farrell]

I use the JAA Jeppesen logbook even though all of my training will be on the FAA route.

My instructor told me not to bother changing it to the Jeppesen FAA version (although I do like the green pages in that one!)

[swervin'mervin]

i personally see no reason to have to change the log book at all. Just carry on and change when you fill the old one up.

[CVT Pilot]

Thanks for the responses all - I am indeed following a modular route although as has already been stated I have been informed that P1/S will be logged for the skills tests. I have also been told that initially when under line training, these hours will also be logged as P1/S although I don't know how true this is.

The reason for changing my logbook is that my PPL one is not only unsuitable for the further training but also has taken a bit of a battering during it's lifetime.

Once again thanks for the input!

[bellend]

Hello
Soon I have the pleasure of 4 hours on the 777 sim, I am a basic PPL with no additional ratings. Without sounding like a Bighead:D I would like to know if I can put this simulator session in my logbook? and if so would it serve any usefull purpose?(my guess is a big NOT)
I am flying! with a training/instructor captain and through past sim-sessions it suckered me into getting my PPL although I must admit I do prefer playing in the sims more than I do flying a warrior! but its a close second. I suppose the only real reason I am asking is that I would just love to have an entry in the book with 777 sim !! but ony if it was relevant.
The last time I was in the sim the captain told me it was a zero hour simulator so that trainees could learn everything and then step into the real bird fully qualified, at least thats what I think he said? I may be wrong
gratefull for any advice!

[Strepsils]

There should be a section in your log book for simulator hours. You can stick it in there but you're right, it won't mean much at the moment other than to put a smile on your face whenever you read over it!:) .

[bellend]

Thanks, i have just seen that and i will stick it in there. I am so looking forward to this and although it sounds silly i just want to enter it in!! :}

cheers

[Keygrip]

Are you not only supposed to log sim time that was done on an approved simulator (which this obviously is) and doing lessons on an approved course (which this presumably isn't).

The log book is a serious document - of course the opportunity is important to you, but I wouldn't log it in anything more than memory.

Had one guy turn up at a school one day - he'd logged a Boeing 737 sector In a sim) as an actual trip in the main pages, and was claiming the hours flown and telling people he had turbine experience. :ugh:

I've played with a 747-200, an L-1011, a DC9, couple of King Air's, Lear 35, 737-400, A320 and a few generics. All have fond memories, none are in the book.

[bellend]

Hi keygrip

this is what I was concerned about.I sincerely am not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes! I just pondered the question as to the legality of wether or not it could be logged . I understand what your saying and yes you are correct this is not an approved course it is merely 4 hours of play! I do not want to enter any false info in my logbook. On refllection I will not put it in as it means jack anyway, I just thought it would be cool to have in there for the brag factor !!!:yuk: and if it was legit then why not. Thanks for the info

regs

[banana head]

Bellend, provided you are not claiming the time flown towards a rating or licence I can see no reason why you can't record it in your logbook.
Put it in the Flight Simulator section, put a comment in such as GH (general handling) and Don't include the hours in your total flight time.
Nothing wrong with doing that.
Don't mind the begrudgers - enjoy your play around on the 777

[TheKabaka]

the jep book is horrible, the best jar log book i have seen is the AFE proffesional log book. When you start flying a multi crew aircraft there is one captain, who logs P1 on each leg. The F/O will be P2 if PNF and PICUS when P1 the AFE book has spaces for all these things.

[Whopity]

Why not use an Exercise Book that way you get what you want and save money.

[Jinkster]

As long as your not counting the time towards your licence issue. It doesnt really matter.

[Saintsman]

Some years ago, as a PPL I had the opportunity for several hands on flights in a large 4 engined aircraft whilst we were doing test flying. The max I had control was for an hour. Were these flight loggable?

[arn3696]

Hi saintsman,

The only way you would be able to log these hours would be if the captain you were flying with was a licenced flying instructor (or TRI) on this type. Providing he / she was, then the hours would be entered in the logbook as dual and operating capacity as P.u/t. (Pilot under training).

Also a point to which im not 100% sure of the answer...

The aircraft or instructor may need to belong to a school / establishment with approved training certification. (but this may be just to count the hours towards licence issue)

[JUST-local]

Thanks guys for making me laugh "Bell end" and "Banana head" nice change from the aviation names!

:D

[Saintsman]

arn3696,

Thanks for the info. To be honest the hours are not that important. Just the fact that I had the opportunity to fly the aircraft gives much more satisfaction. It was a money can't buy experience which I will never forget.

[Strepsils]

You can put almost anything you want in your log book. The only issue is claiming time that does not apply. No harm in putting in trial flights or sim rides as long as you remark they were "leisure flights" for example and don't include them in the total time for that page.

As for the sims, the only relevance of sim time is 100 hours towards your ATPL (in the UK). As long as this particular sim time is not counted toward that (should you train for your ATPL) then you are doing nothing wrong.

Remember that whilst a log of flights is required, your logbook is your Personal flying log which just happens to store your flights in a required format. Only if you claim to have something you don't are you commiting an offence.

[bellend]

Hi
Did my sim session last night, thoroughly enjoyed myself. Entered in my logbook as general handling(leisure) and not added to my total. Thanks for the help .A shame that it passes by so quickly !:{
cheers bellend !

[MyData]

How much did that cost? And was it worth every penny? And where did you do it (PM me if you don't want to advertise). But it sound like a fun thing to do.

[2close]

I got to play with the RAF's Tornado sim at a front line squadron some years ago and stuck that in my book (not logged as time though) just to remind myself that I have managed to plant a 30 million pound jet straight into the ground at 600 knots and walk away (But as the only flying member of my visiting troop and no-one else managed to crash, did I feel a pillock? Oh yes!)

[bellend]

Mydata

Cost was negligible as I did it through a friend who works for the airline. Sorry but dont want to reveal anymore than that but you can go through a company (virtual aviation?) I think ,very expensive with them ,they have sessions at Luton,Gatwick & Cranebank if my memory serves. for a cheaper worthy sim session with full motion try the trident simulator at Biggin Hill ,good price full motion but old graphics (night flight only)

regs bellend

[wobble2plank]

AAArghhh, the dreaded BrainCrank, personally I hate the day my sim check rolls up. I never knew they could fail so much stuff and then provaricate for hours over it!!!!

Glad to hear you enjoyed your trip Bellend, the 777 is a fun beast to play around in and the hours in your log book will provide a good talking point over a beer :)

Incidentally, a bellend crank, I seem to remember from days of yore, was the connecting rod between the rotating swash plates of a helicopter and the rotor blade pitch change hinge :zzz: , t'was also a part of a blokes anatomy .... go figure??

Cheers

(Edited due to typing too fast with fat fingers)

[bellend]

never looked at the sim that way? I suppose its a bit of a torture chamber for you guys doing the check rides while for me its a jolly! for the few times we done it the weather is off,everything works and we have the benefit of somebody who knows what their doing telling us what to to do, which is probably the complete opposite to a check ride!

If I had the money I would love to own a full motion sim, I would give my PPL up for it...but now I am talking like a helmet,purple mushroom.......bellend:p

[Flyingstevie]

Hi All!

At the moment I'm following an Integrated Course for my ATPL. I did all the groundschool and am now busy with flying in the States. My Flightschool gave me a Logbook which I have used till now. Today I bought the Jeppesen European Pilot Logbook, because it looks more professional than the one I got from School. Only after I had a look in it, I saw there is no possibillity to log Cross Country hours in there. Are there other people who use this logbook who can tell me how to log those hours? Do you use the 'Remarks' for that for example?

Thanks in Advance!
Regards,
Steven

[FlyingForFun]

There is no logbook out there which can possibly contain all the columns you need for absolutely everything.

When you apply for a license or rating, and there are particular hours requirements which aren't explicit and clear in your logbook, there are two possibilities:

Firstly, you easily have the hours. For example, to apply for an IR, you must have 50 hours x-country PIC. If your total time is 500 hours, you can be pretty certain that you've met that requirement, and whether the exact x-country time is 300 or 400 hours no one really cares. (Remember that, according to JAR, x-country is pretty much anything outside the circuit.)

Secondly, you are very close to having or not having the necessary hours. In this case, there is nothing for it but to go through your logbook and add up the exact totals. If you are clever, you will do this in advance as you go: for example, my logbook does not have a column for ME PIC time. It has columns for ME time and for PIC time, but not for ME PIC. It was a requirement for me to become a ME instructor to have 30 hours ME PIC. So, at the bottom of every page, I made a note of the ME PIC time. Even if you don't have the foresight to do this, though, the hours requirements that are likely to fall into this category are generally small enough that you can go through your logbook and add up the totals reasonably quickly, certainly less than an hour, in most cases.
Do you use the 'Remarks' for that for example?You certainly can do - doesn't really matter as long as you can get the number from somewhere.

FFF
--------------

[Jinkster]

Just looking for an online flight log - are there any available?

thanks, Jinkster

[felixflyer]

Hi

Im sure this will have been asked before but i have done a search and cannot find an answer.

Can i build hours towards my CPL/IR on a PFA aircraft?

Regards

Felix

[FlyingForFun]

Yes - so long as it is an aeroplane, not a microlight, it's fine.

FFF
------------

[nuclear weapon]

Is it true that if a cpl holder is flying an aircraft his fellow passenger who is a cpl holder can also log the hours.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Nope. Not under JAR/EASA anyway.

[Lucifer]

Only if aircraft is rated as requiring a two-crew operation.

[Whirlygig]

..and even then, only one can log "In command", the other must log co=pilot hours. In addition, I assume in this context that they both have a rating for this aircraft.

I suspect the operative word in the original post is "passenger". If they are a passenger, then no hours can be logged.

Cheers

Whirls

[Scanwing]

Hello Colleauges,

Is there someone out there where to buy a electronic logbook for your PC or Palm pilot. I woud reall like to get my hands one one of those.

Reagards,

Scanwing

[Mercenary Pilot]

Im just trying out Skylog Pro, you get a free 30 day trial. Seems good so far...Its a bit pricey though at £59.

(Sorry for posting commercial link)

[Lucifer]

Learn to use Excel people!

[scroggs]

I use Excel myself, and any decent spreadsheet can do what you need for logging your flights.

For all those about to post links to people selling computer logbook products - DON'T! If they want to advertise, they can pay.

Scroggs

[littco]

Scroggs,

I know you don't allow people to post links to commerical sites, but I use a website that is free and it has a facility to log your hours electronically, in an easy to use drop down menu, which you can then download into EXCEL. Is it ok to publish this on here? Quite understand if it isn't.

[Sky Wave]

Scroggs

Is the excel version of your log book your only copy? Do you print off the sheets and put them into a folder or anything? Have you dispensed with a hand written log book?

Do you have to log your own hours at Virgin or do ops, crewing or someone also keep a log of your hours?

I've had my basic log book since starting my PPL but I also keep the hours in an Excel spreadsheet (It helps to ensure my sums are correct).

I'm now in CTC's holding pool and I was planning to start a new log book when I start my type rating. Would you recommend sticking with my excel spreadsheet or should I get a proper JAA log book?

Cheers

SW

[scroggs]

I don't use any kind of paper logbook. My Excel sheet is backed up on three computers and a memory stick; it has never been printed out. Virgin does keep a log of our hours, but I doubt it complies with the CAA requirements for personal log-keeping. I see no reason why you should need to keep a paper logbook at all.

Scroggs