Logbook and Logging Hours Questions

[WingDown]

Scroggs,

Can I ask, if you dont keep any form of paper logbook, how you would provide a CAA approved form of your hours? Like yourself, I keep a basic excel sheet that totals my hours in a similar way to what you have described. However, I maintain a paper logbook as an approved form that the CAA will accept for my licence applications (currently training). How do you get round this? Is your excel sheet recognised? Or is there no requirement, post training, to submit logbook hours to the CAA?

WD

[Lucifer]

What is to stop a printout? There is no approved format or form in particular, hence the different ones on the market.

[Superpilot]

Check LASORS 2006, I think it details all the requirements for a valid logbook. You would be surprised at how little is required.

[scroggs]

Scroggs,
Can I ask, if you dont keep any form of paper logbook, how you would provide a CAA approved form of your hours? Like yourself, I keep a basic excel sheet that totals my hours in a similar way to what you have described. However, I maintain a paper logbook as an approved form that the CAA will accept for my licence applications (currently training). How do you get round this? Is your excel sheet recognised? Or is there no requirement, post training, to submit logbook hours to the CAA?
WD

The last and only time the CAA wished to see my logbook was in 1998. I could have submitted it as an Excel spreadsheet then, but they weren't very computer literate at the time. There is no requirement to keep a paper logbook, simply a requirement to record your flying hours. How you do it is up to you.

Scroggs

[EpsilonVaz]

Hi there,

Just a quick question, what would be the most sensible way to record flying time in a logbook?

For Example, you fly 1hr 30mins.

Record it as time 1:30

or Decimal 1.5

thanks

EpsilonVaz

[A2QFI]

Good Question! I worked in a foreign Air Force which tried to go over to 'decimal' hours with flights recorded to the nearest 3 minutes. This matter was raised some time ago on this Forum and a link was posted to a programme which enabled the use of a calculator to be used to add hours and minutes, in the 60 minutes per hour format. If it is your log book I guess it is up to you but if it is an official thing like an RAF Form 414 or something used by the authorities, it may not be up to you how you record the hours. If you are looking for official use and recognition of your hard earned hours you may have to comply with some approved protocol for the recording of them.

[EpsilonVaz]

I am in JAA land, any advice would be helpful :E

EpsilonVaz

[potkettleblack]

Most schools I have attended use decimal and it is the best method IMHO.

It makes adding up much easier and helps to avoid making silly mathematically errors. With using hours & mins if your having a bad day you can easily add them up wrong unless you have a fancy calculator that has hours, mins & secs function. To help you work out the decimal conversions you can always do a little card and keep it in your logbook:-

5 min = 0.1
10 min = 0.17
15 min = 0.25

etc etc. After a while you will remember them more than likely anyway but it will give you a handy reference whilst starting out.

[Lord Flashart]

I'm looking at a 100 hour time building program in the US on a twin which looks pretty good value, but I am concerned about one thing - are the hours logable under JAR. I phoned them and was told that I could pay extra to get all P1 time, and that this was logable, but then I saw this post by Send Clowns:


The FAA accepts more than one person logging a flight if both are qualified.

By my reading, in the UK that can only be the case if (a) an instructor logs PIC, student logs dual (b) they log P1 and P2 or (c) they log P1 and P1 under supervision. However (b) can only be logged for flights requiring two crew. (c) is only allowed for CAA flight tests (not club checkouts) or on multi-crew aircraft.
So since a Duchess is not multi-crew under JAR, does this mean that if a guy who is getting his FAA qualifications is in the right hand seat logging P2 time, that I can't log these P1 hours under JAR?

[potkettleblack]

The question is this. How do you log JAA P1 time in their aircraft? If you ask them that question then let us know? We need to know will you be the sole person in that aircraft at all times or will you be required to take either a safety pilot or instructor with you? If the latter two then I would be very sceptical about it all.

Some poor sod posted a few weeks back about how he went for a ride with an instructor pal having paid the school at P1 rate and had his hours not accepted by the CAA. The instructor was of course logging it all as P1 as even though to all intent and purposes he was enjoying 50 hours worth of jolly with a guy that had a PPL. Moral of the story has to be - fly by yourself or at least someone without a licence/instructor rating.

[Dannyc]

Hi,

Unfortunately these hours are not recognised by JAR, the whole scheme runs on the idea that two parties (i.e. two pilots can log twice the amount of hours at half the price), however it is not recognised here in the UK. :(

Best regards,

D :ok:

[potkettleblack]

Yeah I know that used to be the case for sure with this outfit. Now on their website they are specifically advertising for JAA P1 time at 20 extra/hr. So not sure if they are pulling a fast one or what the lie of the land is until our mate Lord Flashart can reveal all from his phone conversation.

[portsharbourflyer]

Quite simply of the 100 hours you are referring to, 50 hours is flown under screens or the hood as the handling pilot under simulated IMC, the other 50 hours is flown as the safety pilot. On the FAA system you can log safety pilot time, under JAA you can't, therefore half that time is "loggable" under JAA.

[Lord Flashart]

I did ask them whether the time was logable under the JARs when I initially phoned them, as potkettleblack has said they offer an option of an extra $20/hr payment for all P1 time, rather than the 50/50 split portsharbourflyer refers to.

They claimed that if I paid this extra, and was flying as P1 for the entire 100 hours, with another guy flying as safety pilot / P2 (who would be logging the hours under the FARs) I would be able to log these hours under the JAA system, but I'm a little concerned that even if I'm PIC the CAA might disallow the hours due to not allowing more than one pilot to log hours in what they see as a single pilot aircraft (even if the other pilot is logging them under FAA regs).

I certainly wouldn't believe the hours were loggable if they were flown as P2/Safety pilot, however, since they are claimed to be all P1 hours I'm curious. Surely the hours don't need to be solo to be logable under JAR - isn't it enough for me to be PIC?

Cheers.

[BigGrecian]

In the US most multi flying requires two pilots for insurance.

Yes the hours are loggable just make sure when you fly your the sole manipulator and you can claim it PIC - it's not rocket science!
Makes it easier if you fly with an FAA pilot rather than JAA then there's no argument etc etc....it's worked in the past for collegues...

[Lord Flashart]

In the US most multi flying requires two pilots for insurance.

Yes the hours are loggable just make sure when you fly your the solo manipulator and you can claim it PIC - it's not rocket science!
Makes it easier if you fly with an FAA pilot rather than JAA then there's no argument etc etc....it's worked in the past for collegues...

Great, thanks, just wanted to confirm.

[Lord Flashart]

I have just been reading another thread and it says that for the FAA guy to log his hours as safety pilot, I'd have to fly IFR, otherwise a safety pilot wouldn't be needed and hence he can't log p2.

But in that case, surely I'd need an IR, otherwise he would have to be P1 for me to be under the hood????

The more I think about this the more confused I get - can anyone please clarify, can a guy on an FAA course log P2 while I'm flying VFR and logging P1? How about if I had an IR and was flying IFR?

Thanks.

[razzele]

Its all IFR

[potkettleblack]

My advice is before you spend any money to put the facts down in writing to the CAA and get their view on it. My belief is that under JAA two people cannot log time unless they were flying a multi crew aircraft. This will not be the case for you. If you knowingly fly around with another bloke logging time and the CAA found out regardless of whether you were the sole manipulator of the controls etc then I would expect them to be very suspicious of your hours and at best downgrade them.

[15sabu]

Hi,

This is just a question as to whether non-P1 flights in GA aircraft can be logged into the logbook in the 'other flying' column.

I have a valid PPL, but I have recently been flying with various aircraft owners in their aircraft. I know perfectly well that any flights in these aircraft, even though im up the front, cannot be counted in any form of P1, P2, etc.

However I would like to include it, if for reference purposes alone, in my logbook - is the 'other flying' column suitable and allowable??

Cheers :ok:

[PicMas]

you can NOT do this IFR.

Must be VFR in VMC.

Under the FAR the definition of PIC is:
*Required crewmember
*Sole manipulator of controls
*Responsible for the safe conduct of the flight

For a "P2" to log PIC (under FAR) he must be a required crewmember, this he can only be when serving as safety pilot in VMC as a "look-out pilot" while the sole-manipulator-of-controls flies with a view-limiting device.

You basically share the required functions so that one is manipulating and the other is responsible for safe conduct...

If you fly IFR the person NOT manipulating the controls becomes obsolete.

Additionally, I can mention that any employer in the US will look at this way of logging with a certain amount skepticism, even if it's legal under FAR I would seriously consider if it's worth putting in your logbook.

It's definitely not approved under JAR!

[flying_crazy]

Hello.
So the conclusion is that something is wrong when they say that for plus 20$US we can log all the hours as JAR PIC, right? Why do we have always to fly with a safety pilot even in IFR?
Another thing, even if we fly with another pilot but they let us log the hours as PIC what is the problem?

Best regards !

[potkettleblack]

Because the deal works on the basis that BOTH of you pay for the hours being flown. If you can find someone who will happily pay half of the flight cost whilst you log PIC then that is fine. But under JAA what do they log - or are you hoping that they won't mind?

[Lightheart]

Have recently switchd over from a FAA log book to a Jeppesen JAA (JAR-FCL 1.080).

In the JAA logbook it asks for time logged under "Instrument Flight Rules". However, all my flights are under IFR, even if I'm flying in VMC. My question is how can you differentiate between IFR and IMC/Actual Instrument? Are the CAA/JAA not interested in these hours?

I've read Lasors Section A, Appendix B about logging time but it only mentions that time is to be differentitated between Night and IFR. In my FAA log book there are columns for "Night", "Actual Instrument" and "Simulated Hood". How are others logging these in your 1.080 logbooks?

Also, landings are separated under Night and Day, whereas the in the FAA all landings are logged together. How important is this?

Thanks in advance.

[AFIS]

To answer your last question first, if not operating under JAR-OPS, in Europe you must have made at leat 3 take-off's and landings in the last 90 days as Pilot Flying if you are going to carry passengers. If qualified to fly at night (e.g. night qualification or CPL, ATPL holder) and your intention is to carry passengers on a night flight, if you do not hold a valid IR then 1 of these take-off's and landings must have been made at night. It's somewhere in LASORS and JAR-FCL 1.
Now, the IMC/IFR debate has been around for a while. Prior to JAR many countries in Europe only required you to log actual instrument time. Logbooks would have a coulmn provided for this. Since the JAR's arrived they seem to be more concerned about the fact that your flight was VFR or IFR. The only time instrument time is required to be recorded is when training for a new rating or licence. For example, A PPL holder wishing to obtain an IR (single engine) must complete 50 hours of instrument time of which 35 can be in an FNPT 2. Note, this is INSTRUMENT TIME and not IFR time. As you probably know, you can gain instrument time on a VFR flight plan (under the hood, foggles etc) and you can also gain IFR time on a Gin clear day while operating on an IFR flight plan.
Which begs the question, why do Flight instructors wishing to upgrade to unrestricted instructors able to teach for the IR only require 200 hours IFR under JAR and no additional proven actual instrument time?! Makes you wonder. :rolleyes:
So, to summarise, I suggest if you intend to train for a new rating or licence you log both (instruemt time in remarks column, as stated in instructions at the front of your new logbook) but, if you hold an ATPL, then just record time spend under IFR. Which, during most airline operations (but not all!) is the block time of every flight. Though pointless it does make it easy.
Apologies for the long winded reply but hope it clarifies things a little.

[JamesTigris]

I'm about to start my PPL and need intend to follow it though to commercial training and professional flying. Anyone having gone down the pipeline some distance got any pearls of wisdom earned from those irritating features you just wished your log book had? Or those grass-is-greener moments when you wish you'd bought THAT logbook from the begining?

How is the standard CAA logbook?

Cheers.

[airyana]

logbook software vs Conventional logbook . . . what are your thoughts ?

which one would you go for ? do airlines have a preference . . .

[ultimatepro63]

Well logbook software is used by many to back up their "paper" logbook incase it gets damaged or lost.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Hi Flik Roll

Welcome to PPRuNE, I strongly recommend you read THE STICKY
(http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649) at the top of this forum as it will answer most of your questions.

:ok:

[XL319]

might be worth having a look at LASORS which states that hours gained by a SMLG (Self launching glider) does not qualify towards your revalidation. I would doubt it would count towards your hours, but I might be wrong on that part which is why i'd check LASORS...a copy can be downloaded from www.caa.co.uk (http://www.caa.co.uk)

[Jetstream_lover]

Hi,

Think this is the right forum to post on, I am already a commercial pilot, but not JAA. Am doing JAA GS at the mo, but have been told by another JAR pilot that under JAA regs, you have to log each sector, ie if you fly ABZ-LHR-ABZ, this has to go under 2 different entries.

Any Advice

Cheers

JL

[High Wing Drifter]

If the duration between each flight is 30 mins or less then they can be logged as a single entry. Looks like the Ryan Air guys will save money on logbooks with one entry per day :\

[Superpilot]

Hi Jetstream Lover,

Don't know about Airline/Commericial ops but I did my JAA PPL in the US under the 'JAA' rules at a time when 'JAA' was quite new.

For all my training, solo and x-country flights (i.e. the first 50 hours) I logged them without reference to sectors. I noted down each sector time on a bit of paper, totalled them all up and put the total into the Fight Time column, with a description of the trip in the remarks column.

Obviously not the very best thing to do! I was after all, new to it all but probably OK considering 2 CFI's, 2 instructors, a British PPL examiner and the UK CAA all saw/signed my logbook without a complaint! Since then the license has been renewed once and the SEP rating revalidated three times. So far so good!

[Jetstream_lover]

So lets see if I have got this, if the flight is less then 30 mins, it is a single entry, if more then it is not???!?!

[An Artificial Member]

Why on earth would anyone want to log 2,3 or 4 flights that they did on the same day, as ONE entry ???????????

The mind baffles:ugh:

[class a]

I have been logging flights on one line for years in my FAA logbook and it has been back to the CAA more times then i care to remember to add ratings on etc and has never been a problem with them so far

[GS-Alpha]

www.pilotlog.co.uk

Gives all the statistics you could want.

[SuperDuperFLY]

I know I need one, but WHICH?!
IT might sound a bit anal, but I don’t want to be transferring all of my logs to another book in a year, after realising there is a more efficient way to display the logs, and that necessary things have been omitted.
To be specific I DONT want a PPL logbook, as I intend to take my flying to ATPL eventually [yes I know, forward planning!].
I heard that Pooleys Logbook is a waste of time and the CAP 407 one sounded/looked good, but are there any other recommendations?

I'll be doing fixed wing from 0 hours to 'frozen' ATPL... and then obviously ATPL [one day!]. For now its just single engine land, but I need to consider everything and how to detail it all efficiently.

Cheers,
SuperDuperFLY

[Genghis the Engineer]

What sort of flying do you anticipate doing?

G

[XL319]

This might have come up before, but couldn't find it on the search. Can you use glider hours towards your log book hours and if so, can they be used towards the requirements of 100PIC for CPL courses?

[matt_hooks]

The hours requirements are listed here.

www.caa.co.uk/ default.aspx?categoryid=175&pagetype=90&pageid=4727

It doesn't say anything about glider hours being allowed and I would think it was unlikely that they would give you much, if any, credit for non powered hours flown.

The best thing to do is to contact the Safety Regulation people at the CAA and ask them, they may be able to do something for you.

[FougaMagister]

As far as I know, having a Glider Pilot's Licence (or equivalent) entitles you to a reduction of 10 hours or so on your PPL under JAR-FCL 1. Don't quote me on the exact number.

I am not aware of any credit towards CPL.

You can, however, include glider hours to your total hours for CV purposes - provided of course they have been logged. The CAA does indeed consider gliders as aeroplanes (as opposed to ultralights for instance). I know I do - even though it doesn't make much difference to the total, I would hate to leave them out; after all, gliders taught me to get my landings right first time (no going around here)!

Cheers :cool:

[XL319]

Thanks for that. Best if i ring CAA i think....I already have my PPL but it was in relation to the hour building aspect before i go on to my CPL.

[BEagle]

Why pester the CAA when it's all in LASORS D1.2(D):

D1.2(D) NOTES

The 200 hours flying experience may comprise flight time in any of the following capacities:

• Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full.

• Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full.

The following credits will apply towards the total 200mhours of flight time and not the specific requirements of (a)(i) and (ii), (b) or (c) above(Note - The requirements referred to are specific aeroplane requirements):

i) 30 hours as pilot-in-command holding a PPL(H) on helicopters; or

ii) 100 hours as pilot-in-command holding a CPL(H), or as a QSP(H), on helicopters; or

iii) 30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor gliders or gliders (including Vigilant).

[AlternativeProcedure]

HI Folks,

can a co-pilot log IFR hours when he/she is acting in the capacity of Pilot Not Flying (PNF) in a multi-crew airline environment under JAR regulations?

AP

[FlightDetent]

Yes. If it is an IFR flight. Chocks to chocks.

[kmontgom]

Over the summer I had the unique opportunity to work as an intern for American Airlines. I was able to participate 6 hours in a Level D MD80 full motion simulator. I currently have over 300 hours and 15 multi. I was wondering if i could log the 6 hours i received in the Level D sim time and add them to my multi hours. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[scroggs]

I assume you have an FAA licence. You will need to check with the FAA for the authoritative answer, but in general simulator hours may only be logged in the specific simulator section of your logbook. There are certain exceptions for those undergoing zero-flight-time training - which you presumably were not, nor, I assume, do you hold a rating or were being instructed on the aircraft type which was being simulated. If that is the case, under UK rules I'm pretty sure that you would not be able to log the time in any pilot capacity at all. Whether that is also true under FAA rules, I can't say.

As a general rule, be very careful about logging simulator hours - particularly in an attempt to make your flying hours look greater than they really are. A simulator is not an aircraft, and, for most purposes, simulator hours may not be logged as aircraft hours.

scroggs

[weis]

Basically i'm looking at doing the Procourse (http://www.flyaviator.com/proCourse.html) through Aviator and then converting to JAA in Europe. I'm just a bit confused over the multi-engine/instructional hours that count towards a JAA fATPL. Are all FAA hours taken into account be it PIC/Instructional/non-instructional? If anybody out there has gone through this course or a similar route i would really appreciate any advice.


Many thanks!

[AlternativeProcedure]

Thanks for that FlightDetent, I assume you were answering my question. The reason I asked is that, I fly in Nigeria, and I was told that only the Pilot Flying logs IFR time. I had been logging both PNF and PF prior to this time. And I thought it might look suspicious to the UK CAA(which is the last thing I need) if all of a sudden I started logging only PF as IFR. So do I just carrying on or cancel my previous logbook entries? Considering that at some point in the future, I'll have to produce that same logbook to unfreeze the JAR ATPL.

AP

[Wee Jumbo]

I went to Aviator. Had a great time. Dont expect OAT or Cabair conditions, but all that Multi time is great.

What happens is when you build your multi time you do it with 2 pilots in the cockpit. One under the hood flying IFR and the other as safety pilot. Under FAA rules the safety pilot is a required crew member so can log PIC time for the entire time the other guy is under the hood. You cannot do his under JAR, you can only log the time you are manipulating the controls. You should therefore keep 2 logbooks, 1 JAR and 1 FAA.

You can also log Dual PIC under FAA. This means for example if you are flying a multi engine aircraft under instruction for your instrument rating, but already hold a multi engine cpl rating, you can log PIC time as well as dual because YOU ARE rated on the plane. You cannot do this under JAR so again, should log both differently in 2 different logbooks.

There are some other quirks, but just make sure you clarify them with instructors or the rule books.

Take it easy

WJ

[weis]

WJ, many thanks for that, went to aviator for my ppl and very much enjoyed despite the somewhat limiting conditions. Best regards

[John001]

Hi all,

Could anyone enlighten me as to the maximum number of FNPTII hours allowable when applying for initial IR(A) (modular)?

I have tried to obtain the above using the search function though to no avail so apologies if it´s already been covered.

I know that this information is covered online in the CAA´s ´LASORS´ but my dial up connection is just too slow to load it in any reasonable amount of time! :bored:
(If anyone could provide a direct link to the page it would be much appreciated)

regards

John.

[BlueRobin]

Hey John, no problem.

Here's the relevant section

For IR restricted to Single-Engine (SE) aeroplanes

A single-engine IR(A) course shall comprise of at least:-

a) 50 hours instrument time under instruction,
which may include (b) or (c).
b) 20 hours (maximum) in FNPT 1 if approved by
CAA;
c) 35 hours (maximum) in FNPT II or Flight
Simulator if approved by CAA. With the
agreement of the approving Authority not more
than 10 hours of FNPT II or flight simulator
instrument ground time may be conducted in a
FNPT I.

For Multi-Engine (ME) aeroplanes

A multi-engine IR(A) course shall comprise of at least:-

a) 55 hours instrument time under instruction,
which may include (b) or (c) and must include (d);
b) 25 hours (maximum) in FNPT 1 if approved by
CAA.
c) 40 hours (maximum) in FNPT II or Flight
Simulator if approved by CAA. With the
agreement of the approving Authority not more
than 10 hours of FNPT II or flight simulator
instrument ground time may be conducted in a
FNPT I.
d) 15 hours in ME aeroplanes.

[escobar]

Whilst almost correct Blue robbin i believe the single engine and multi engine IR's are both 50 hours if you have a cpl or 55 hours if you don't. I thought you had to have 15 hours in the aircraft so as long as you have that you can make up the rest of the hours in the fnpt2, however blue robbin seems to suggest that you can only have a max in the sim and it looks like he has referred to lasors so i would tend to go with the max amount of 35 in the fnpt2

[High Wing Drifter]

My own thoughts about the IR sim usage. Unless you are very confident in your ability to pass the IR with just the minimum of 15hrs ME time, don't consider using the max 35hrs FNPTII time. You'll feel like Cptn Capacity in the sim whereas ATC will seldom route you according to your FPL and will work you like a dog in the air. With personal hindsight I reckon I would have been better off with 15 hours in the FNTPII max, just enough for an instrument refresher and to cover the routes. Also, not using the max sim time, may leave some time for some cross-country IFR which will probably expand your capabilities too.

All assuming UK.

[BlueRobin]

I quoted verbatim from LASORS 2006. What you think are the rules or of them is another matter entirely ;)

[escobar]

I actually have decided where we differ on the hours required and in actual fact we are both right, to an extent. The cpl before the IR states that you have to have 10 hours of intrument time, and therefore you can deduct 5 hours from your multi engine ir time, giving you a 25h cpl and 50h IR if you do the ir first then its a 55h ir then a 15h cpl. With regards to sim time i am agreeing with you as you have read lasors about it and i haven't, however i was only stating that i had previously thought that it was a minimum time in the a/c not a max time in the sim, i was wrong. I did 25 in the sim and 25 in the a/c and got a first time pass so i was unaware of any max sim time, but i was told that i HAD to do at least 15 in the a/c, in all honesty I would say that 25h in the a/c should be the min, coz at 15h I was still all over the place

[SoulFlyer]

Hi everybody;
First I'm french (sorry) so excuse me for the grammar... (re-sorry)
I m filing the CTC recruitment and I was wonder of what was P1; P1/S; Dual and P2 for flight hours logging.
I expect that Dual is when I am flying with an instructor; P2 is when I am flying as a Co-pilot but what's the differences between P1 and P1/S (is the S for solo flight??? and so what is P1 (captain hours???):ugh:
Thanks in advance

[FlightDetent]

Tha answer is in JAR FCL1. Have a look.

Basically, dual is all flying with when receiving instruction under JAR FCL, i.e, base training should be logged as dual, because you are not qualified on the type yet.

Commander, is a pilot nominated by the operator, there can be only one on board. Commander has all the legal responsibilities and power. Commander always logs P1 - PIC, even if he is asleep in the bunk.

Once you have a licence, and you are not a Commander, you log co-pilot time. Co-pilot is any pilot on MPA who is not the commander, even if you have captain licence. This would apply for flights with two captains and for all F/Os

If a captain is receiving any instruction, he would log PIC(Under Supervision) time. He cannot log straight PIC time as this is reserved for commanders only and that will be the instructor (provided he is occupying the right hand seat). But such captain trainee acts as a commander, so he logs what he does - commanders time under supervision.

To gain PIC time for ATPL, F/Os often need some extra PIC time. FCL has a provision to it. Under approved training syllabus F/O can play the commander while being supervised by an instructor. In this case, F/O may log PIC(US) time as well. WARNING: This is JAR FCL rules. UK CAA set a different rules under which F/O logs PIC(US) for legs where he is the pilot FLYING. This is clearly contravention of JAR FCL, but that is how it is done.

FD
(the un-real)

[acuba 290]

just interesting. I have at the moment a normal AFE PPL Logbook, which is great, small etc. If i am going to start a IFR/CPL training, as much i know, i will need a "big" professional logbook. At which moment logbook will be changed and how? All flying gonna be writed from beginning to professional logbook or only flight time previous entered ?

[littco]

All you need to do is, either start you're new log book where the old one left off, or as you're on you're ppl transfer the whole lot over to the new one. You have to keep the old log book though as it will have you're sign offs, hours and checkrides in etc.

Then when you have to submit the log book to the authority for license issue/rating you need to send both the old and the new one in together.

Just make sure you keep the old one.

[acuba 290]

Then when you have to submit the log book to the authority for license issue/rating you need to send both the old and the new one in together.

Just make sure you keep the old one.

every time send both or only once to approve all information transferred correctly in case of overwriting to new one?

[littco]

Have to say I'm not sure... I would have thought once you have got you upgraded license ie from PPl to CPL and got the new logbook stamped you may not need to send the old one in again, but I am only guessing.. Maybe someone else can shed some light on it further.

[OpenCirrus619]

When I got my CPL I changed to a new log book (mid '05).

When I sent off the application for my FI rating I only sent the new one - it contained records of all the flights I had done during my FIC. Since the rating was (eventually) issued I guess it was OK.

OC619

[Malta_Flyer]

My sincere apologies if this has already been discussed..but i looked all over the place and didnt manage to find it. Any idea how the CAA defines "cross country time?" Im a PPL building hours for the CPL/IR. Since i'm based in malta, most of my flights depart and arrive at the same airport...since we only have one :) I was once told be a commercial pilot that for a flight to count as cross country you have to fly some distance away from the airport...i think it was 8nm but im not sure...can someone help me out in this?

thanks

[scameron77]

Now here is one for all the regulations afficiandos . . . .

I have an ICAO (in the form of a FAA) CPL/ME/IR and recently attained my JAA CPL/ME/IR in the UK. The question is this, can I log ferry flights, my CPL and IR skills tests as P1 as I already hold a licence (abeit I'm flying a G registered aircraft opposed to a N) or is it P1s? One of the problems with owning a Jeppesen logbook.

Also just to confirm, in Jeppesen

P1 = PIC
P1s = Not designated
P1u/t = Dual
P2 = SIC

[potkettleblack]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=255329

Use google to do an advanced search as it enables you to search for 3 letter word combinations whereas pprune won't. Also specify that it is only to search www.pprune.org and bingo.

[davey147]

Hi, I am planning on getting my FAA ratings before my JAA ratings and maybe instructing in the USA for a while.

Should I use a JAR logbook or an FAA one, as I am planning on working in the UK eventually. Would the FAA issue ratings if I send them a JAA logbook. Also does anyone use these electronic logbooks? and can these totally replace their paper counterparts?
Thanks

[will fly for food 06]

Good Evening,

I have just read through this thread to try and see if my question can be answered. I'm glad it was a large cup of tea. Anyway, i'm getting my ppl after flying within the military before going down the modular route. Now my question is i have hours in my military logbook that was flown on a civilian registered aircraft and have a course completion certificate which the CAA will accept. Would i be able to add these military hours into my new logbook as this is what will count for the ppl? I will not add any of the subsequent hours on military registered aircraft these will stay in the military one.

Thanks in advance.

[madlandrover]

No - those hours stay in your military logbook which you hold onto as an extra logbook. Certainly that's what I did with my EFT hours etc, and the CAA were quite happy with that.

[will fly for food 06]

Thanks. I guess it could look a bit confusing having duplicated hours.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've taken a slightly different tack - whilst my military logbooks are still on the shelf as proof, absolutely everything has gone into one big commercial logbook. It has enough columns that I can keep stuff apart - but the world at large doesn't care if your "group A" flying was in a G-reg C172, an N-reg PA28, or a military registered G115 - it's all flying.

To date, this has never given me any problem beyond that of keeping it all reasonably neat and clear.

G

[will fly for food 06]

Another interesting thought. That must have taken some time.

[LimaRomeo]

Hi guys,
I have a tough one for you. A question about logging PIC flight time.


I am a Belgian guy holding an FAA PPL. Legally, I can not fly a Belgian registered aircraft (OO-xxx) as pilot in command. Well, I actually CAN fly e.g. a Belgian Reg Cessna 172 when I have a certified JAA Pilot next to me, or a JAA Flight Instructor as a safety Pilot. Let's say I take off in a Cessna 172 with Belgian markings and a safety pilot next to me. He (or she, what the heck) flies about 10 percent of the time while I do the rest of the flying. Can I log the whole hour als PIC, or just that 90 percent?



Anyone?

Thanks!

[Check 6]

You can log as PIC that time which you are the sole manipulator of the controls. This is not dependant on the state of registration.

[LimaRomeo]

So, I have to keep record of how many minutes I flew the plane and seperate that from the time the other pilot is handling things. Ok...

[D'vay]

You need to get a second opinion from another school! As far as I a aware Belgium operate under ICAO and therefore you should be allowed to fly as P1 alone or with guests without the need of a safety pilot. The only problem that you may have would be crossing borders unless you had an N-registered aircraft.
Speak to another club and Consult FAA/AIM and speak to the body in Belgium.
Regards
D'vay

[LimaRomeo]

D'Vay,
Thanks for your answer.
Here's the deal: officially, all the ICAO states have to recognize each others licenses. So in theory, the holder of an FAA PPL could use it on airplanes registered in other ICAO airplanes. Well, that's how it is on paper. In reality, most JAA states refuse to treat the FAA PPL equal to JAA PPL. National Aviation Authorities in Europe are telling people they have to convert their certificate (that means extra medical and more exams!). Some countries let you fly in their national airspace with an FAA paper, provided you are not a resident of that specific country. As far as I know, only the UK fully complies to the ICAO treaty and allows an American pilot to fly on G-reg aircraft without any conversion. That's even true for flights outside UK airspace, and thats something I have confirmed in an personal email from the UK CAA!

In my case, Belgium is telling me to convert and I can only fly N-regs in my country. I have been writing and complaining about this, but what can I do more if they refuse to honorate ICAO rules?

Cheers

LR

[SNAFU.]

Hi all,

There seems to be some confusion as to whether or not hours logged on a permit to fly aircraft can be counted towards hour building for a CPL.

The CAA state that training must be carried out on an aircraft that has a certificate of airworthiness but im being told at my local club that hours on a permit to fly aircraft are eligable.

The aircraft in question is an Evans VP-1 if that helps. Im looking into buying a share and hopefully the hours I log will be useful. Will be great fun anyway if not.

Has anyone else gone down the permit to fly route for hour building?

Cheers.

SNAFU.:ok:

[v&b]

Maybe not the best forum for this question but...
Done my OPC LPC on Level D sim.. Can I log those hours as TT multi etc? My Examiner said yes. I am not sure though.I have ATPL and I fly Left seat so it is just for curiousity...

Thanks

[scroggs]

As far as I'm aware, no you can't. I never have logged any of the hundreds of hours of Level D sim time I have.

Scroggs

[Genghis the Engineer]

The VP1 is an "aeroplane" (as opposed to glider, motorglider or microlight) and therefore hours in the VP1 do count towards your CPL.

You can do training on an aeroplane which either has a CofA, or you own solely; experience can be gained on anything you were licensed to fly which qualifies as an aeroplane.

G

[MIKECR]

Has anyone recently sent off their paperwork and logbook etc to the CAA for issue of their CPL/IR?? I currently have a Jeppesen logbook(6 years old) which someone has hinted might not be suitable for JAR FCL purposes. I will be looking to submit everything within the next week or 2 but am now contemplating having to purchase a new logbook first and transpose all the info. My current logbook is one that records decimal time as opposed clock time. Has anyone had any similar experiences??

I should have said - its the UK CAA i'll be submitting my paperwork to.

[CarbHeatIn]

Jeppie produce both FAA and JAR logbooks. The JAR versions state clearly on the front that they are JAR-FCL compliant

[MIKECR]

Unfortunately my one doesnt. It was fine for the issue of my JAA PPL, but that was back in 2001.

[CarbHeatIn]

Give the CAA a call or drop them an email.
Failing that you can buy a JAR one and transfer your hours. If you have your course completion certificates you don't need any stamps in your logbook from FTOs.
Good luck :ok:

[MIKECR]

Thanks for that, I have my IR pass etc etc so no problems there. I'll probably give the CAA a ring first, was just wondering if anyone here had experienced anything similar.

[walkertonio]

Hi everyone!

I'm currently filling an application form and I'm not used to these terms :
P1 hours
P2 hours

Does anyone know what they stand for ?

[walkertonio]

In fact, they request the following total time:

Dual hours
P1 hours
P2 hours
Captain hours

Do dual hours and p2 hours mean the same ? the same for p1 hours and captain hours ?
I first thought that P1 hours was for the first officer's hours and P2 for the second officer's hours ?

[TopBunk]

Walker

They are not the same thing at all!

Captain - record hours against this when you are the captain, be it airliner or single engine piston

P1 - record hours against this total when you are co-pilot handling the sector

P2 - record your co-pilot hours here for aircraft requiring 2 crew and licensed on type

Dual - when under flying instruction, for your PPL or initial conversion training.

I'm now sure that someone will correct me, but that is the general idea.

Note: Each flight can only be recorded once!

[rjay259]

I understand it as

P1 - PIC (pilot in command) only log for jet time if Captian signs it.
P2 - Co pilot.
Dual - when under instruction

The instructions of how to fill in your log book will be at the front of it.

Hope the company takes you on.

259:cool:

[walkertonio]

Unfortunately I am not a UK flyer, and I really don't know how to fill this application. But I think Topbunk's explanation seems to be the right one :ugh:

[Airbatic7eca]

LAZORS is absolutely useless. I have all my time logged under US (FAA) logging standards, and need to try and figure out how much time I have using the UK (CAA) standards. Does anyone have a quick guide, that explains all the categories? These are some of the ones I have heard.

P(UT)
PIC
SPIC
PICUS
P1
P2

I have searched. Appreciate the help.

[Whirlygig]

PIC = P1

P U/T = pilot under instruction for a licence or rating. Classed as dual time.

SPIC = Student PIC on integrated courses only. Log as P1 time.

PICUS = P1 U/S = In command under supervision - to be used for skills tests only.

P2 = co-pilot in multi-crew aircraft.

Appendix B to Section A LASORS (Recording of Flight Time) pages 42-44 in the 2007 edition. LASORS is not useless; you just need to find your way around it. If you need to convert your log book times for reason of getting a JAA licence, then you're going to have to get used to LASORS I'm afraid!

Cheers

Whirls

[rob152]

Hi guys,

Right, I have about 50hrs towards my PPL. I haven't finished yet as Ive not been doing it consistently due to college and financial demand. On my days off from work I sit in the RHS of a Cheiftain flying pax to France and back, I know someone who managed to get me this opportunity! Its great fun and when there are no pax I do get to fly, not very often of course. My enquiry here is really to find out if anyone knows if there is any way that I can log these hours? Im keeping a note of them in anticipation of future interviews for part sponsorship deals and airline direct positions (assuming I can get the finances required for FTE!).

It would be nice to know if this is possible as it would clearly add to the total hours of experience after Integrated training. I estimate that if I can do it once a week then that would amount to a little over 200hrs for the year! After FTE and including my current hours from my PPL my total hours would be nearer 400. This is soley out of interest and I would really appreciate any replies I recieve.

Cheers,

Rob152

[SD.]

One loophole is if the guy in the left hand seat is a JAA FI then you technically could log it as dual instruction received. Although I personally wouldn't recommend it.

I would just make a note of the flights you do and raise the issue in any interviews you have in the future. The fact that you are giving your time to learn and watch how a light commercial aircraft operates from the front is great experience and should impress the interviewer.

Even post-PPL, although rated on the aircraft you could log it as PIC, you have to prove that you are paying pro-rata share of the costs as flying the 'dead legs' wouldn't be covered by a PPL. To legally be able to log the hours in this case, you'd need to hold a CPL and given the UK weather, a IR. Also the guy in the left seat wouldn't be able to log any time as the aircraft is a single pilot aircraft.

Hope this helps.

[j_davey]

Hi there,
Just a quick question, My first intro flight a few years ago was never recorded in my logbook(i did not have one at the time). soon after this the instructor was no longer working at the school so i never got this flight entered in my book. my question is this: i have a certificate with all the neccesary info for the flight including his signature, can i enter this into my logbook now or do i need a counter signature from the instructor?

i know its only 30min, but every little counts!

thanks.

[BEagle]

Yes, you can enter that flight and you do not need any countersignature.

Your personal logbook is precisely that.

[garywoodrow]

hi, sorry for a little thread steal :} but i have had two 1hour trial flights, is it possible to record these in my logbook? i was told trial flights cannot be entered, although i did do most of the flying itself.

Cheers,
Gary

[5150]

If it was with a qualified instructor, then yes you can log the hours. . .

[garywoodrow]

hmm... i wonder why the instructor told me they would not count towards it :bored:

Will i need the instructor to sign the log book or anything?

[mlee]

He may have ment count towards your ppl, which they would nt but you can certainly log them.

[j_davey]

thank you!

[5150]

They can count towards hours requirements for licence issue (unless the system has drastically changed).

Trial lessons can normally be logged under Exercise 4 - 'effects of controls'.

[davey147]

Does the UK CAA accept FAA logbooks when issuing licences and ratings?

I ask this as I will be doing most of my training in the US, should I use a JAA logbook or FAA logbook?

[fonz77]

is your ppl flight test considered pic if you pass, also is a checkout for a new plane or school considered pic if you have a ppl but fly with an instructor who signs your logbook, getting conflicting answers at the school im in and would like to know as i'm getting ready to start the cpl and it would be handy to know if i have more or less hours to do.
also is the FAA BFR considered to be PIC.
ultimatley can these hours be considered for the 100hrs needed for the cpl.
have done a search but couldnt really find an anwser.
thanks in advance

[SD.]

If you are flying on and logging under FAA then any BFR is PIC, as is sucessful check rides. Basically, if you are rated for the aircraft then you can log it as PIC, even if a CFI (FI) is onboard.

Under JAA, anytime an instructor is onboard you log it as dual. Regarding skill tests, I'm not so sure under JAA.

Hope this helps.

[potkettleblack]

Its in Section A of LASORS.

[Blinkz]

Any successful skills test in JAA land is PICUS, not PIC.

And generally (i.e nearly always) when you have an FI onboard then you will be P/UT and so log dual time.

[papero]

Hi guys,
i'm hopefully quite close to be hired by an english airline company and I have some big doubt on my italian jaa titles conversion to UK CAA.
My enquiry here is to understand what i'm requested to produce for UK CAA, about my logbook, due to the fact that i'm a military pilot.
CAA UK will accept my civilian logbook with an included official statement, signed by my wing commander, certifying correctness of data?
I logged all my flight hours in an hold icao flight logbook since now, and i would like to know if i have to import all the flight hours in a new flight logbook compliant with jaa or i can do something else?
Thanks
Cheers,
Papero

[papero]

Hi guys,
how is that possible that nobody has any idea about my question?
Please give me some info.....

[Whirlygig]

Probably best to telephone the UK CAA on +44 (0)1293 573700. Most of the people on here are ab initio civilian pilot students with little experience of military conversion.

Cheers

Whirls

[Captain_Scooby]

Ooh, first question in a while...

Am a bit confused as to what I can log this time as.

I have a CPL-ME-IR and MCC. Have been flying on a small jet - a CJ2. This CJ2 is 'authorised' (can't think of the correct word) for single pilot operations in the UK. I've been sitting in and helping with radio, nav, autopilot, checklists, etc... pretty much the duties of a co-pilot. I'm not type-rated on the CJ2. Am I able to log this as P2 or Dual? Or would it be as a Safety Pilot, i.e. SNY? Or perhaps a third option I'm not thinking of?

During one day, flew on a CJ1, internationally. Apparently, this required two crew, and I flew as the 2nd crew member, pretty much doing the same things. Is this loggable as P2, or again as SNY?

[portsharbourflyer]

Safety pilot time cannot be logged (at least not under JAA rules). To log the hours you must hold a type rating and you must also be operating under a multi crew AOC if it is a single crew aircraft. So no you can't log anything towards your total time.

[Sole]

Looking through many posts, and being confused by the many Articles that appear in LASORs and various other posts on the internet.

Ive been led to belive that you do not log any hours for an instructor.. however, ive seen several posts around that suggest, that you can log them as P1 when the student is logged at PUT...

Would like to work towards my unfrozen ATPL via instructing, however, im not sure its possible for these reasons.

Any help, (preferably without being tied to a stake) would be great! :D

All the best
Sole

[portsharbourflyer]

Sole,

If you are an instructor, you log the time as P1, the student logs the hours as dual. Also in most JAA appoved log books there is a seperate column labelled instructor to enable you to keep track of your total time as an instructor.

Yes instructing you can build the hours, however to unfreeze the ATPL you will need 500 hours in multi crew operations. So in effect any instructional hours flown after achieving a 1000 hours total time will not further your cause with respect to gaining a full ATPL.

[Captain_Scooby]

Another question - I recently took and passed my IR renewal in a sim. The info I could find in LASORS referred to flight tests, so I don't believe it to be relevant. I'm planning to log this as PIC U/S for the operating capacity, and just standard Simulator time in my logbook. Is this correct?

Also, whose name goes down in the PIC column. Looking back through my logbook, I put the examiners name for a successful CPL test. Was this correct?

Cheers

CS

[mad_jock]

You only log sim time as sim time. It does not go towards any flying totals. Apart from having recorded you have done the check it is virtually useless in the grand scope of things. It can be counted towards ATPL issue though up to a certain value.

And putting the examiners name as PIC was correct.

[IrishJetdriver]

Pilot In Command Under Supervision (of the pilot in command)

The pilot in command's name is entered as commander. If you are solo, it's you. If it's a successful check then the examiner name is entered. If it's instruction or an unsuccessful check then it goes in the DUAL column again with the instructor/examiner name as commander.

When you join an airline. When you are pilot not flying (PNF) you enter this in the co-pilot column. When you get a chance to drive you enter your time in the P1 column, capacity as PICUS and the commander down as commander.

Out of interest, when you are pilot flying (PF) in a mutli-crew aeroplane the I suggest you enter the actual airborne times (duration) in the Instrument Flying column as well.

All this is in the front of the CAP407 CAA logbook incidentally.

[mad_jock]

Check with the Captain before you log it as PICUS unless your not going to bother getting them to sign it.

Some Captains get very very upset if you presume to log PICUS.

Most (myself included) don't give a toss. And some company's policy is not to allow you to log it because thier pay structure give's you a rise when you get your ATPL.

Check it out first, saves having a grumpy captain.

[Captain_Scooby]

Potentially stupid question...

Recently did my IR revalidation, in the aircraft as it's 2 years since my initial. Didn't bother renewing my multi rating at the same time, so that has now expired.

Do I still have an 'ME/IR', as the revalidation was done on a multi-engine a/c, or does the multi-rating need to be renewed for me to be able to put the 'ME/' bit on my CV? If I can't, would I just list it on my CV as a 'CPL/IR'?

Thanks

Scoobs

[2close]

I presume that at the time of the revalidation the ME CR was valid. If not, then the IR revalidation wouldn't be valid as you wouldn't have been authorised to fly as PIC at the time (although it would be recorded as PICUS or P1S, whichever you prefer).

However, assuming that you DID hold a current ME CR at the time of the revalidation then why didn't you include the Class Rating revalidation during the same IR revalidation flight, which would see to make economical sense?

As regards CV, it is probably better to list Ratings separately with their effective dates, thereby showing the propspective employer your currency so the short answer is 'Yes, it would be better to revalidate your ME CR first', otherwise you would be listing IR, effective yada yada, ME CR, 'lapsed on yada yada'.

[BillieBob]

Bear in mind that logging PICUS in aircraft certified for operation by one pilot is acceptable only in those JAA Member States that, like the UK, have misinterpreted the requirement. JAR-FCL 1.080 indicates that PICUS may be used only "on an aeroplane on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aeroplane or as required by JAR–OPS".

[portsharbourflyer]

Captain Scooby

If your IR was renewed on multi engine aircraft then you have a current ME/IR, so yes you can claim a current SPA ME/IR on the CV even when the MEP has lapsed (it is the same as if you had done a revalidation in the sim, you would have a current SPA ME/IR but not a current MEP).

However without a current MEP you may only exercise the IR privileges on a single (assuming your SEP is current).

However the requirement to start your first multi crew type rating is a current SPA ME/IR, as such you will not require the MEP to be current if you are fortunate enough to get a job on a multi crew type.

[jlpilot]

Hi everyone!!!

Just a quick question. Can a FI log IR time when instructing PPL´s or CPL´s the basic instrument flying? The student logs the time as IFR because he´s flying simulated instruments, but not sure about the instructor.

I mean JAA training and not during the IR course.

I couldn´t find anything on the JAR-FCL.

Thanks :)

[winguru]

Hi guys need help with this one

Have 170 and something hours, a icao CPL in a non FAA and non JAA logbook.
There is no entries for take off and landing time, so this part is going to be imcomplete if i copy the foreign logbook to a new jar logbook

I brought my logbook with me for USA, im doing some flying here with private plane owners once in a while while doing JAA ATPL.
I am logging flight hours in the foreign and in a new FAA logbook, in case i want to apply for a FAA licence by licence conversion, and the extra hours towards the 250 total, in future.

Now i notice i will need a JAR logbook, the good thing is that i kept track of my departure and arrival time while flying in USA

So im thinking to do this:
Keep logging the flights in the foreign "simple" logbook.
Kepp loggin the flights in the FAA logbook, wich later might help me for FAA licence.

Transport the total time from the foreign logbook, to JAR logbook, and log the few hours i have made in USA, because i have the times of dep and arr, and i can have it signed/stamped

Im not able to have the hours from the foreign country where i get my CPL stamped again because im not going to pay a ticket back there just for this, that s why i am thinking just to put the total from the foreign in the first line of the JAR logbook.

And when doing the JAR conversion, and applying for a Job, i show them my foreign logbook also.

What do you think

[sdryh]

Hi

I work for a UK Airline and during my interview a few years ago all they wanted to see were the total times and the licence. I dont think it matters how many log books you have. Just transfer the total times from the old book into the new one and then continue with that. Keep the old book just in case they want to see the stamps.

Hope this help?

[winguru]

Yeah, this is what i came to the conclusion. One for FAA one for JAA, and have the total hours from the foreign in the first page total of each of them.

Keep using the FAA logbook, and JAA logbook.
Log the hours in FAA logbook until i get the FAA licence, after dont need to log any more hours in it, and just keep using the JAA log that have been using since the total of foreign hours.

Also, its good to separate things:
My friend told me that in FAA they log the time with intructor training for IR rating has PIC.

I cant have this in a JAR logbook, they will laugh of me. :}

And there is also all that safety pilot issue.

Thank you

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yeah, this is what i came to the conclusion. One for FAA one for JAA, and have the total hours from the foreign in the first page total of each of them.

Keep using the FAA logbook, and JAA logbook.
Log the hours in FAA logbook until i get the FAA licence, after dont need to log any more hours in it, and just keep using the JAA log that have been using since the total of foreign hours.

Also, its good to separate things:
My friend told me that in FAA they log the time with intructor training for IR rating has PIC.

I cant have this in a JAR logbook, they will laugh of me. :}

And there is also all that safety pilot issue.

Thank you

Seems a bit daft to me.

I've been using the same pre-JAA commercial logbook for CAA / JAA / FAA for 20ish years, and nobody's ever laughed at me for anything. Columns can be adapted a bit for any special requirements, which I do and many other people do - so if there's something that only FAA want, for example, simply use a spare column and label it appropriately.

G

[Potential]

I have a CPL with SEP and while I'm based back at home job hunting, I'd like to do some flying just to keep my skills ticking over. Unfortunately my local airfield doesn't have a flying club, but a private owner has offered me the use of his microlight.

The question I have is can I log this time as SEP PIC time in my aeroplane logbook?

The aircraft in question is an Aviasud Mistral (Photos: Aviasud Mistral Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Aviasud-Mistral/1163207/L/&tbl=&photo_nr=6&sok=&sort=&prev_id=1163208&next_id=1163206)), which to me is more like what I would call an aeroplane, rather than a microlight. Having looked up the definition of a what a microlight actually is on the CAA website, I got this:

A microlight aeroplane is one designed to carry not more than two persons which has a Maximum Total Weight Authorised (MTWA) not exceeding:

300 kg for a single seat landplane.
390 kg for a single seat landplane for which a UK Permit to Fly or Certificate of Airworthiness was in force prior to 1 January 2003
450 kg for a two seat landplane
330 kg for a single seat amphibian or floatplane
495 kg for a two seat amphibian or floatplane So basically a microlight is defined as a very light aeroplane. Therefore, would I be right in thinking that I can log the Mistral time in my aeroplane logbook?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I like the Mistral, although you might want to keep an eye on the slightly exciting stalling characteristics and very low Vne.

You need differences training with a microlight instructor to fly it, which is easy enough. After that you fly it on your SEP rating but the hours don't count for currency or upgrading, so you'd be best logging the P1 hours in a spare column.

G

[Potential]

I briefly read about a Mistral crash involving a suspected stall and possible spin a few years ago, but I didn't actually pick up on what the "slightly exciting stalling characteristics" are. I also noticed the very low Vne, only 5 knots faster than Vno according to what it says on Wikipedia and slower than the normal cruise speed of the PA28s I learned to fly in!

With regards to the logbook query, would you be able to direct me to the official documentation on this issue? I trawled through various CAA publications, to no avail.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I was heavily involved in the aftermath of that accident, and in my opinion there was nothing "suspected" or "possible" about the stall and spin in that accident.

The aircraft was flying low and slow, with the doors off, which worsened the stall characteristics. The stall warner was also of a poor and disfunctional design which in my opinion should never have been approved on the aircraft.


Subsequently we removed the permission to fly with the doors off, and mandated a completely different stall warner which gave good, and very loud, stall warning.

There is still a risk that the aircraft will try to spin off a stall, particularly if you trickle in very slowly - say half a knot per second. However, if you smartly centralise the controls and reduce power, when we flight tested it, the aircraft returned to level flight after no more than a quarter turn and with no more than around 100ft ofheight loss. So, nothing (now) that should trouble a halfway experienced pilot who has taken the trouble to get to know the aeroplane.

Apart from that, the Mistral is fairly slippery on approach and descent, so speed control needs a little more care than some aeroplanes. That and it's an oldish engine the Rotax 532, which needs treating reasonably gently (and a pilot whose PFLs are current!).



Apart from that, if you look at the recency requirements for a JAR- PPL(A) or CPL(A) in LASORS (Section F page 10 in my 2008 copy) it says that your 12 hours in the second of 2 years must be in "SEP or TMG" - CAA doesn't recognise microlights as SEP for this purpose. This is an absurd interpretation, but it's how it is.

G

[Potential]

Thanks Genghis. I've read through the relevant sections of LASORS, but I still haven't found an official definition of SEP or anything that says that a microlight is not considered an SEP for licensing requirements. Can anybody point me in the right direction please?

[dalillama]

Hi everyone. Quick question on FAA logbooks and requirements. I'm currently doing some flying in Brazil (instruction-flight) in a Brazilian-registered aircraft to validate my FAA-issued PPL so I can fly in Brazil on Brazilian-registered aircraft. (This part I'm all set on the procedures and stuff).

My question is: For the time during instruction and after I am flying solo in Brazil, should I log this time into my FAA logbook as well, considering it's a non-US registered aircraft?

Many thanks!

[FlyingStone]

Hi!

I'm having a real hard time deciding how I should log my time during hour building...

In FTO where I completed my JAA PPL(A) course, logging of time was quite simple: engine startup = block off, engine shutdown = block on. Therefor, the entries in my personal logbook match with those written in aircraft's logbook and the times, logged by ATS units fit exactly...

Problem being, I switched to different FTO for hour building, where time logging works quite a bit differently... Since the FTO charges hours by tachometer timer, it isn't unusual to have block time of 2 hours and time in the aircraft logbook being 1:40 or something similar...

The real question being: should I log block time (as stated in JAR-FCL-1.080) and let it be a little awkard, since should anyone ever compare my logbook with aircraft's and find that the engine was "shut down" sooner than I arrived on the blocks or simply log the same time that is put in the aircraft logbook and be "on the safe side"?

Thanks for all the answers in advance!

[2close]

You really are worrying over nothing.

Flight crew time is counted as Blocks Off to Blocks On, ie. the time the aircraft starts moving to the time it stops moving.

Aircraft technical time, i.e. Airframe, Engine and Propellor time is counted as Airborne time, ie, the time the wheels leave the ground to the time they land back on the ground.

Charging times vary from FTO to FTO, some charge Time Off Blocks, some charge Airborne Time + 0.2 hours, some charge Hobbs Time (Engine running time), there is nothing set in concrete.

In any case, half of the times recorded are estimates rounded up or down to the nearest 5 minutes so you will often have discrepancies between pilots, FTOs and ATC.

And it doesn't matter whether you record times in Hours and Minutes or as decimal Hours, e.g. 1 Hour 30 minutes or 1.5 Hours. It is up to you, it is YOUR PERSONAL Flying Log Book.

One thing I can virtually assure you of is that no-one is going to start checking FTO Tech Logs to verify your claimed hours against the technical hours of the aircraft.

I suggest you just record in your Log Book your Time Off Blocks as recorded at the time of flight from your or your instructor's watch and just agree between the two of you what to record. As an instructor I usualy tell the student what to record - if it's a solo flight he tells me what he's flown. Mutual trust.

Hope this helps.

:)