Fighter Control - A Dark Art?

[orville_emuas]

Following recent attendance at OASC, I've been offered positions as a Fighter Control Officer, ATCO or WSOp.

The Fighter Control was an option given to me even though I didnt request it, and I'd like to consider all career possibilities before writing any off.

Although I have spoken to the local AFCO, including the OC, and searched the web incessantly, I can't find anything of use with regards to the day to day life, future prospects, high and lowlights of being an FC.

It seems to be a dark art shrouded in mystery, one which nobody seems to know about!

Could anyone possibly shed a little light with regards to what an FC does apart from 'defend the
UK's airspace onboard an E3 or at one of our remote radar stations'?

Any input would be gratefully recieved,

A very indecisive Orville

[brickhistory]

INCOMING!!!!!

Orville, you are about to see the results of HE weapons at close range. FC's in this forum are objects of derision, or at best, pity.

I'm in another country's air force as a weapons controller ('scuse me, air battle manager (RAF FC-equivalent)), so I can speak to the controlling aspect, but not what it is like in the RAF.

PM if desired.

(I'll just push my glasses back up now and wait for the booms! Good luck!)

[A good headin]

Orville,

This is classic OASC policy to offer you FC first. They will offer you the Branch that they are having problems filling, they did it to me! Think carefully my friend before jumping in.

If you really want to play with aeroplanes then go down the ATC route. At least there will be opportunities for you in Civvy street when you leave. After all, Mil & Civil ATC is all about keeping aircraft apart and not as in the case of FC, bringing them together. As we speak, the RAF/RN Mil ATCO's under training at Shawbury are way ahead on ESARR 5 (European Safety & Regulatory Requirements), something the FC Branch are dragging their heals on.

While FC serves it's purpose for the Mil, you are not going to have much to put on your CV when you come to leave. Good luck in your application and feel free to PM me if you have any questions on the RAF Air Traffic Control Branch.

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

You'll have a difficult task sorting the banter out from the truth here. Suggest you get your local AFCO to jack up visits to Boulmer, Scampton-Kirton-in-Lindsey and Waddington.
I joined on a Cadetship in 1985 and I've had a great time and enjoyed the job and the mates. The task of controlling aeroplanes in a busy environment and under a fair bit of pressure from all sides is either something you enjoy thoroughly or run away bravely from. The job satisfaction on the surveillance side of the house also depends on your own perceptions - the only way is to go and have a look.
Longer term careers are picking up for all the non-flying branches, and in the Joint environment the Army & RN probably value some of the Branches such as FC more than some of the aircrew. Unfortunately, there is still a fair amount of institutional arrogance around amongst some of the brevet fraternity - but don't let them put you off. Moreover, the better aircrew tend to make the most of your expertise - the flak normally comes from the low-average operators who like to get their retaliation in early. Especially chopped F4 mates like some of the old farts on here. On the other hand, the working relationships that I've formed with the sharper aircrew are still strong after many years of ops and staff work.
The bottom line - which Branch is for you depends on your own outlook and expectations. Try a PM to (for example) Tablet Eraser, SirTopphamHat, BunkerMentality or Wyler for the latest hot poop.

[charliegolf]

However, if you really want to play IN aeroplanes, and wear a real brevet, then WSOp is the only choice. (In your list, that is.)

CG

[orville_emuas]

Thanks for all your input so far, anything is better than the standard AFCO reply!

Orville

[SirToppamHat]

By all means pm me if you want the latest hot poop - for now, this is the office (well about one third of it anyway):
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/dac459c0.jpg
And, you have to go upstairs to get into this one - an unusual experience I can assure you!
Good words from the Inspector - it is not that difficult to arrange a visit, and if OASC has offered has already made an offer of a place at Cranditz, you owe it to yourself and to us. It should now be possible to visit Waddington, 1 ACC and Scampton in a day, and there are (I think) reasonably frequent RJP visits to Boulmer.
STH

[Inspector Dreyfuss]

The air traffic chum may have a point with regards to CAA licenses etc. However, with the increasing digitisation of modern warfare the ex-Fcs are very gainfully employed in civvy street for a number of companies - Lockheed Martin's acquisition of the consultants STASYS (chock full of ex FC officers and TG12 sncos) being a case in point.

[SirToppamHat]

And worth bearing in mind that NATS accept controllers AND ROs for late entry to ATCO trg if that's your long-term interest.

STH

[The Gorilla]

I have worked with all three in my time, they can all offer a rich and rewarding career. Banter On:Yes even the FC branch.. there I've said it!!:D Banter Off

You really need to go and have a look at all three choices if you can. STH's excellent suggestion of the lincolnshire three should enable you to get a fairly good look at a reasonable cross section. Congrats and let us know your final choice.

Regards
TG
:ok:

[ADIS5000]

Orville,

If you want to fly, go WSO. As, despite what the AFCO will tell you, getting onto the E3 as a FC is far from guaranteed.

As far as FC or ATC ... well, as a recently departed FC, I think its 50/50. FC is more Operations orientated but restricted in the number of UK posting locations. ATC have lots more UK posting possibilities, but are not involved in tactics or weapons. ie the punchy military stuff! Both jobs are challenging and rewarding. You're gonna have to visit units and decide for yourself. Looks like Boulmer and Leeming for you matey! Ask your AFCO for the contact numbers. All the best and good luck.

Insp D,

Even when the ESARR5 requirements are met, Mil ATC who want to work for NATS (which after all is the major part of the UK civil ATC world), will still have to do 95% of the NATS courses anyhow. The Mil ATC guys will be probably only be exempt a few, fairly straightforward exams. NATS don't differentiate between Mil ATC or FC. So as far as post RAF careers go there's nothing in it.

Also, did you just recommend tablet_eraser for something in your previous post on this thread? It'll never catch on you know!

STH,

I take it that your photo is of an unusually quiet day?!! Or have the guys all gone camera shy?! (Yes, I know where it is.)

[SirToppamHat]

ADIS5000

It was taken whilst the Ops Room was still 'owned by' the contractor.

STH

PS, your Name is about to become obsolete!

[pigfist]

Orville,

Fella you should have joined up fifteen years ago - then I could have recommended it. Sadly, now there is a paucity of assets to control and what little control positions that are allocated in the UK go to training sorties for the F3 fleet/Euro-thingy and Valley. And believe me these are few and far between. ACMI (Air Combat Manoeuvring and Instrumentation) range has gone - replaced by RAIDS and EURITS pods. Basically the focus is on moving mud, or more correctly, sand. Mud movers, bless them, don't usually have a radar and if they do get in a fight with a proper fighter will get raped and die. Ergo, don't get ina fight and side-step or run away to fight another day.
I so wish I could recommend this as a career choice but you really would be better stacking shelves or flipping burgers - or just getting strapped into a jet and going flying.
And here speaks someone who has seen the brighter side of a CQWI(AD) ACMI!!

"Remember, everything has a PK of 1.0 if it hits you">

[orville_emuas]

Gentleman (well im assuming), the banter seems to have been kept to a surprising minimum, and you have all opened my eyes to an opportunity I think I was somewhat blind to.

I'm definitely going to investigate further, and thanks SirToppamHat for that direction, I'll chase the AFCO asap.

As for all the responses, I seem to have been presented with a balanced debate and some really good info. Please feel free to add any more!

(There's got to be some harsh banter on the way now surely!)

Thanks again

Orville (feeling a little less indecisive)

[Daf Hucker]

If you want to spend lots of time sitting in offices, some with windows, others without, then go AT or FC. If you want to travel round the world, with very little responsibility, go WSOp!

[Yellow Sun]

If you really want to play with aeroplanes then go down the ATC route. At least there will be opportunities for you in Civvy street when you leave.

A little off topic, but I must mention a colleague of my mine who after being an FC became a civil ATCO and is now a 737 captain. The opportunities are all there if you grasp them.

Good luck whatver you decide.
YS

[tablet_eraser]

ADIS,

Tut tut... so much banter! Always better when I could respond to it at Buchan (remember your placemat and a certain magazine advert?) :E

Orville,

If you're in Newcastle it's well worth visiting Boulmer - we're less than an hour up the A1. Put a call in to your AFCO and see if they can arrange something for you. Far better to see it up front rather than rely on some of the attitudes you might find blowing around in these forums.

Feel free to PM me.

t_e

[Neeps]

I would recommend a visit to Boulmer to have a look at the FC branch in depth. I visited last year and it was well worth the visit considering the scant information on the branch. Who knows, I might have even met SirToppamHat in my few days there. ;)

Nikki

[fireflash]

Hmmm all career options eh?

Try the Fleet Air Arm..... we're not fussy! Probably make it as a pilot :)

......Unleash the banter!!!!!!!!

[brickhistory]

Try this for background:

www.raffca.co.uk

[Unmissable]

Some very good advice so far. My (personal) opinion is that for the first few years of your career they are pretty equal, yes FC is more operationally focused but ATC has better locations to be posted.

However, if you want to look beyond your first few tours, a FC has much much more utility in a strategic HQ that an ATC. FCs do Battle-space management, ATC do airspace management....which is more useful to a defence force????

I know many fine officers from both branches, but I know where my aspirations would lie. EVERYBODY tends to enjoy their first few tours (it tends to be full of your core business and uncluttered by politics). If you want to go civvy ATC, it would not be hard for Civ ATC to train any ex RAF who is airspace-minded (go on the NATs recruitment website and look).

WSOp has the thrill of being an airborne job, but after the first few tours advancement will be limited unless you are young enough to branch change.

I the future of the RAF is UAVs I suspect that a FC is better placed than an ATC to be a pivotal part in that future.

Good luck.

PS I am not from either branch!!

[RayDarr]

Orville,
I was a FC for a log time, but I'm much better now thank you. I only need the tablets every other day, and the people at the hospital are very nice rearly...
Honestly young feller, don't do it If you want a job where everyone hates you, employ some honesty and join the RAF Police. It's no accident that the FC's are up at Boulmer (North of Newcastle) and the rest of the air force is at least 2 hours drive away from the place. If they could have found somewhere more remote, they would have put them there. Why would someone who wants to fly like an eagle go and live like a mole? Unless the life forms in the FC branch have mutated towards human you might find them full of bitter and twisted people who were chopped off some other course. (Yes, me as well). They generally sit around all day looking into goldfish bowls muttering to themselves. If I were you, I'd go and join the French Foreign Legion. or even the Royal Navy

[Wyler]

Ray

You do make me titter. Glad you admit to being bitter and twisted. Saves me having to point it out. Goldfish bowl..that dates you. As you are a captian of industry why are you hanging around here instead of sunning yourself in some exotic location?

[threepointonefour]

"Fighter Control - a Dark Art?"

Nah - easy. So easy they let Navs do it too.

[BEagle]

"Following recent attendance at OASC, I've been offered positions as a Fighter Control Officer, ATCO or WSOp."

Which is either like asking which type of death by boredom you'd prefer, or indicative of the branch they're most desperate to find recruits for....

[SpotterFC]

BrickHistory

Thanks for the plug ...

[Well Travelled Nav]

Orville,
It appears you have been offered a choice of either FC,ATC or WSOp. Just because FC is first doesn't necessarily mean that is OASC's preferred option. If they wanted you to be FC they probably would have only offered you FC. If you have an unsolicted offer of FC you must have a really good aptitude for it.
You appear to be in a good position where you get to chose your branch.
Just out of curiosity what were you branch choices in order of preference and want length of commission have you been offered?
I would prefer that you PM me if you wish to talk off the record about OASC
If you want to arrange a visit to a Station, you could use the AFCO and it may take a while to arrange. When do you have to accept/decline any offer?
You could arrnage your own visit by telephoning the Public Relations Officer at the Sation you wish to visit - you may then get a day which is the most convenient for you.
WTN

[Bunker Mentality]

Orville,
There's some good gen above - NB especially that, if flying's your thing, you should go WSOp.

If you're intrigued by the FC Branch, however, Well Trav'd Nav makes a good point about time. My spies tell me that someone in your position has already got a visit jacked-up to RAF Boulmer which should happen before the end of Jan (precise date still TBD). Have a look at Boulmer's website at: www.raf.mod.uk/rafboulmer. On the home page select 'contact us' and then 'click here' on the next page that comes up. This will enable you to email a very nice lady ;) who should be able to sort a visit out for you.

Whatever you choose, good luck and keep us info'd

[Melchett01]

Fighter Control - A Dark Art?

Not any more .... allegedly they have windows now!

[Washington_Irving]

By all means pm me if you want the latest hot poop - for now, this is the office (well about one third of it anyway):
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/a11dbfd9.jpg
And, you have to go upstairs to get into this one - an unusual experience I can assure you!
Good words from the Inspector - it is not that difficult to arrange a visit, and if OASC has offered has already made an offer of a place at Cranditz, you owe it to yourself and to us. It should now be possible to visit Waddington, 1 ACC and Scampton in a day, and there are (I think) reasonably frequent RJP visits to Boulmer.
STH
Very nice.
Do FCs spend a lot of time phoning up people having dinner to pester them about fitted kitchens? I would be concerned about long term job prospects- the branch looks like it might be outsourced to New Delhi in the near future.:}

[SpotterFC]

The HCI was actually designed by people more used to doing call centres - did they know something we didn't?

The picture gives a bit of a false impression of the light levels - it is actually an office environment - not as dark as the picture might suggest.

[SirToppamHat]

I've brightened the previous picture up. Here's another bit:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/Picture010.jpg
There are 3 displays on each console, one of which is for the radar display and the other 2 for data, though they are inter-changeable.
This has become known as the Execs' Banana:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/6d060a17.jpg

[Wyler]

Beagle

So, how many people join the RAF specifically to fly tankers then? I have never met one. Most join the aircrew branch to fly FJ and end up getting streamed onto other types ( I said most NOT all before you start).

I was in the bar at LU in 87 when a sqn came in and presented a young Nav with a yard of ale. In the speech the Sqn Boss congratulated him on passing his convex and finally 'making the grade' as an F4 Nav after 'years in the wilderness'. Seems he spent his first tour on Victor Tankers. Seems to me you lot don't even like each other!

I have nothing but respect for those who fly, no matter what type or role. I also have respect for all those in support. It's horses for courses and those who are most dismissive of others are usually the unhappiest of all (or just an old fart).

[FCWhippingBoy]

this is the office (well about one third of it anyway
Ooer I recognise this place! *Wonders if he'll recognise STH!*

[LateArmLive]

Well said Wyler.
I find it interesting (and quite sad really) that those who have left the service seem to feel the need to hang around this forum slagging off the forces today and bleating on about how much better it was in their day!
Maybe we could start a new forum for the old bitter ones, kind of like a retirement home where they could all go and gently wee themselves while congratulating each other on how good they were, while slagging off the youth of today.

p.s. I don't have anything against these people posting their stories of days gone by etc, and Beagle et al have contributed greatly in the past. I just wish we'd stop hearing how bad it is now from those who aren't in. :)

[akula]

Cranditz have a WSOp open day thingy on the last Thursday of each month, should give you a decent insight.

ALWAYS assume NEVER check

[FCWhippingBoy]

Following recent attendance at OASC, I've been offered positions as a Fighter Control Officer, ATCO or WSOp.

Hmmm, isn't WSOp (old AEOp/ALM etc) SNCO Aircrew these days?

[RayDarr]

See rant above

[RayDarr]

Dear Mr/Mrs late Arm Live,
I am sure that the oldies have as much right to say their bit as you do. If they didn't like their service life, they should say so. I have great respect for those in the armed forces of today who do the job. However, there are always those who make life difficult for their brothers in arms, and they do not deserve our respect. These people are by the way found in all walks of life, so hey live with it.
As for me I did 19 years in light blue, most of them in a branch I didn't choose to be in. It suited me to stay to my half career point then leave, however, once a civi, and set up in good job, I joined the reserves, and served a further 18 years in uniform part time. I was called up twice in that time , once for the Kosovo thing, and once for TELIC (6 months that time). I think I have an idea therefore on how "the mob" is run now, as well as how it was run "then"
If the oldies want to blast off about the way things are done now, (or were then) good luck to them. Generally, they will know what they are talking about and most likely have forgotton more than some of the youngsters ever learnt in the first place.
Remember 2 things :
Those who forget history are doomed to re-live it.
Youth is wasted on the young.